Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Does it matter how the Stormcloaks were created?

Yes, especially when you get into the question of "who is to blame for all those who are taken by the Thalmor, and those likely killed by them as well?". If both sides had a hand in the creation of the Stormcloaks, as the prophecy dictates, then both sides have the same blood on their hands.

Like being told your friend was a murderer, and you chose to be blind to it, and the murders keep happening, are you just as responsible for the deaths at your friend's hands? maybe not by law, but by your own conscience and your ethics, you are guilty.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Does it matter how the Stormcloaks were created?

Yes, especially when you get into the question of "who is to blame for all those who are taken by the Thalmor, and those likely killed by them as well?". If both sides had a hand in the creation of the Stormcloaks, as the prophecy dictates, then both sides have the same blood on their hands.

Like being told your friend was a murderer, and you chose to be blind to it, and the murders keep happening, are you just as responsible for the deaths at your friend's hands? maybe not by law, but by your own conscience and your ethics, you are guilty.

Snipping out one sentence in an entire post is the start of a weak argument.

1) The Thalmor were one reason, not the entire reason behind the attempted rebellion and secession from the Empire. There were those who wished to leave the Empire, prior to the Great War. When asking who is to blame for those are taken by the Thalmor, that would either be the people being arrested if there is evidence of treaty violation or the rebellion if they kidnapped someone due to the lack of Imperial eyes on them.

The prophecy dictates? Does it? Where does it dictate this? The prophecy started the moment the Miraak turned away from his purpose and the ancient Nords sent Alduin forward in time.

Ulfric created the Stormcloaks. The Empire didn't create them. Arguing they couldn't of been without the White-Gold Concordat is pointless, since the banning of Talos wasn't gaining him the support he needed for rebellion. Torygg's death got him the political support he needed, he killed the High King as a message to the Jarls. This also caused the Legion to step in and sent a shock wave throughout the Empire, causing Titus II to cancel his trip and send General Tullius in his stead as Military Governor.

2) No. It is nothing like being told your friend is a murderer. How do you even come to that conclusion? Are you on about the Stormcloaks being created or the Thalmor arresting people?

For Stormcloak creation. It'd be like insulting someone, so twenty five years later they phone you with a comeback.

 

[Raijin]

The Empires action is what created the Stormcloak rebellion. In fact it was the Imperials help gave the Stormcloaks their Stormcloaks name solely to belittle their cause, but it soon backfired since Ulfric supporters cheered on the name.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empires action is what created the Stormcloak rebellion. In fact it was the Imperials help gave the Stormcloaks their Stormcloaks name solely to belittle their cause, but it soon backfired since Ulfric supporters cheered on the name.

Ulfric's choices created the rebellion. The Empire's actions is what provided Ulfric the various paths to walk, but in the end it falls onto Ulfric Stormcloak.

I don't see how pointing towards the Empire even provides grounds for an argument, you're just taking away Ulfric's political ability and making his character bland. Is Ulfric merely a puppet without the ability to do something on his own? Is everything he's achieved merely the other sides choices?

As for the naming of the Stormcloaks. That is uncertain, as even the Imperials seem to make comments suggesting that it was the Stormcloaks themselves or Ulfric who named the rebellion. I wouldn't put it past Ulfric to name his cause such, he is ambitious, and does seek greater glory. Even still, they're not actually saying the Empire named them. Only "they" and that could just mean the people they fought before the Empire itself got involved. The fighting has been going on for years, and the Legion stepped in when Torygg was killed months ago.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Snipping out one sentence in an entire post is the start of a weak argument.

1) Ulfric created the Stormcloaks. The Empire didn't create them. Arguing they couldn't of been without the White-Gold Concordat is pointless, since the banning of Talos wasn't gaining him the support he needed for rebellion. Torygg's death got him the political support he needed, he killed the High King as a message to the Jarls. This also caused the Legion to step in and sent a shock wave throughout the Empire, causing Titus II to cancel his trip and send General Tullius in his stead as Military Governor.

I pull out what I am responding to, not quote the whole thing just to talk about one sentence.

I never said Ulfric did not create them. I am just acknowledging that the Empire was needed, and the White-Gold Concordant was needed, for the path to be opened for Ulfric. as far as torygg's death, Ulfric spoke out against sticking with the Empire at the moot that acknowledged Torygg as king. I do not think Ulfric spoke out against Torygg being high king. When your high king basically tells you "cool story, bro" when you speak out in favor of breaking away from the Empire, then simply goes about life as usual, you think things are not right, and that someone needs to do something, right?

It is highly unlikely that without the WGC, Ulfric would have gotten any support for Killing Torygg. Then again, the Civil War was meant to happen, according to prophecy. Both sides need each other. The Stormcloaks need the Empire to open the path to them, and the Empire needs the Stormcloaks so that they can struggle, and grow. Complacency and becoming stagnant are the enemies of all empires.

arguing is pointless, right?

 

[DrunkenMage]

I pull out what I am responding to, not quote the whole thing just to talk about one sentence.

I never said Ulfric did not create them. I am just acknowledging that the Empire was needed, and the White-Gold Concordant was needed, for the path to be opened for Ulfric.

Then I should do the same.

Obviously to rebel against the Empire... requires an Empire. You're acknowledging the Empire is needed for someone to rebel against an Empire. To what end? Where are you heading with this debate?

I don't see how repeating yourself on two accounts is even achieving anything, all you're stating is that "Without Empire, they could not rebel against an Empire."

Of course the White-Gold Concordat was needed, and the Empire was obviously needed. You can't exactly lead a rebellion against the Empire and the WGC without the Empire and Treaty having existed in the first place.

You said the Empire created the Stormcloak rebellion on your other account.

I also stated that the Empire created the rebellion, which is true as well, as it was the Empire's actions that caused the Markarth Incident that led to the "creation" of the Stormcloaks.

You are confusing the Empire with Ulfric. Ulfric Stormcloak created the rebellion, not the Empire. Ulfric's choices, and motives caused the creation of the Stormcloaks.

The Empire's actions merely presented different roads to walk down. They didn't force Ulfric into it, they didn't give him soldiers, or hand him weapons. He did that himself, he used his charisma and political ability to create the Stormcloak Rebellion, which is political as it is military.

So you're just contradicting yourself on two accounts. First you say the Empire created the rebellion, and now you're saying Ulfric created the rebellion.

Ulfric is a big boy, he can do things on his own. Trying to point the finger at the Empire for the Stormcloak creation is merely removing Ulfric's political prowess. Does he require others to do things first? Ulfric Stormcloak isn't this mindless brute, he's clever, and a skilled politician. He inspires loyalty and sacrifice. He knows what to say and how to say it, to draw in the crowd.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

DrunkenMage: Let's agree that Ulfric chose to physically create them, but it was the Empire who opened Ulfric's mind to the option that was needed for him to make that choice.

 

[Raijin]

Ulfric's choices created the rebellion. The Empire's actions is what provided Ulfric the various paths to walk, but in the end it falls onto Ulfric Stormcloak.

I don't see how pointing towards the Empire even provides grounds for an argument, you're just taking away Ulfric's political ability and making his character bland. Is Ulfric merely a puppet without the ability to do something on his own? Is everything he's achieved merely the other sides choices?

As for the naming of the Stormcloaks. That is uncertain, as even the Imperials seem to make comments suggesting that it was the Stormcloaks themselves or Ulfric who named the rebellion. I wouldn't put it past Ulfric to name his cause such, he is ambitious, and does seek greater glory. Even still, they're not actually saying the Empire named them. Only "they" and that could just mean the people they fought before the Empire itself got involved. The fighting has been going on for years, and the Legion stepped in when Torygg was killed months ago.

The Emperors lack of leadership and strength is what created the Stormcloaks. Ulfric funded the Stormcloaks from the choices that the Emperor had made when he lead many of the Nords to their deaths during the Great war. Many of the Nords agrees to Ulfrics political views regarding to the proper ownership of Skyrim, their homeland. Some may not like what they hear about Ulfric, but still agrees to his views and backs it up with support:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000e175a
I've heard some things about Ulfric I don't like, but he's right about this war and about Skyrim's future. - Ralof

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c444c
With the Stormcloaks at his back, Ulfric's poised to rid Skyrim of the Empire's forces and invalidate our involvement with the White-Gold Concordat. Jarl Laila Law-Giver

If he were to be crowned High King, I'm not so certain it would be the golden age his followers expect. - Jarl Laila Law-Giver

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c4436
To the Stormcloaks, this was viewed as the moment when the Empire became unworthy of the allegiance of any true Nord. - Jarl Laila Law-Giver

After the Empire surrendered (Yes they did) to the Thalmor was the day that the Empire was no longer suitable for ownership of the land, according to many of the Nords who backs Ulfric up.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00056aaa
The Nords are tired of spending our blood fighting the Empire's wars, and paying for the Empire's decadence with our taxes. - Ralof

So yeah The Emperor choices gave Ulfric a far grater political advantage and lead him to have an overwhelming support in his homeland.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000302d7
Many of my countrymen joined the rebels. They can't see the big picture. Skyrim needs the Empire as much as it needs us. -Legate Rikke

 

[Rimfaxe96]

...Am I the only one that feels like this discussion turned to the rhetoric equal of a dog chasing its own tail?

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

...Am I the only one that feels like this discussion turned to the rhetoric equal of a dog chasing its own tail?

I do not see how hard it is to understand. Ulfric caused the Stormcloaks to actually exist, but without the Empire opening that path through the WGC and the Thalmor, would the Stormcloaks exist?

 

[Raijin]

...Am I the only one that feels like this discussion turned to the rhetoric equal of a dog chasing its own tail?

I always had that feeling.

 

[DrunkenMage]

...Am I the only one that feels like this discussion turned to the rhetoric equal of a dog chasing its own tail?

It has been like that since the thread got past 10 pages.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

...Am I the only one that feels like this discussion turned to the rhetoric equal of a dog chasing its own tail?

It has been like that since the thread got past 10 pages.

this. The thread was done by about five I think.

 

[DrunkenMage]

After the Empire surrendered (Yes they did) to the Thalmor was the day that the Empire was no longer suitable for ownership of the land, according to many of the Nords who backs Ulfric up.

So yeah The Emperor choices gave Ulfric a far grater political advantage and lead him to have an overwhelming support in his homeland.

Where was Ulfric's overwhelming support twenty five years ago? You say the Empire's actions in the Great War cause it. So where were all his political advantages ten years ago? Five years ago? What about the Moot? Why was it only Ulfric talking of independence, not the other Jarls too?

Ulfric killing High King Torygg got him the support. He invoked Nordic tradition, and in a land where violence is accepted and indeed expected way of life. It isn't surprising for Ulfric to get major support from the Holds close to him. He killed Torygg as a message to the Jarls. Proved his personal strength.

Do you see what you're saying Raijin? I'm not saying the Empire had no hand in it, or the treaty wasn't involved. They're just a tiny part of it, they were the stepping stone. Ulfric by himself achieved his support, on his own he managed to gather an army and muster political support through his own actions. Not the Empire's actions.

It seems in your effort to point fingers, you're merely just degrading Ulfric's leadership ability on the count it was the Empire that did most of the work for him, that gave him overwhelming support and soldiers.

 

[Alexstrasza]

...Am I the only one that feels like this discussion turned to the rhetoric equal of a dog chasing its own tail?

At this point the thread is only good for a laugh once in awhile, its gone beyond beating a dead horse.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

...Am I the only one that feels like this discussion turned to the rhetoric equal of a dog chasing its own tail?

At this point the thread is only good for a laugh once in awhile, its gone beyond beating a dead horse.

Once again true.

 

[Epic Keith]

YOU GUYS SHOULD REALLY GET OUT OF HERE AND GET THE CIVIL WAR OVERHAUL MOD!

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

YOU GUYS SHOULD REALLY GET OUT OF HERE AND GET THE CIVIL WAR OVERHAUL MOD!

At this point, would using a mod make this thread better? or would it only serve to appease those who hated the Civil War in the first place?

 

[ToshiroHitsugaya]

It wasn't thought out well, since as someone as already stated Stormcloaks are very much against non-nords or anybody who doesn't think Talos is the end all to be all. I do find it hard to believe that none people that worked on the game brought it up, as to how a dark or high elf could join the stormcloaks it makes no sense from a role playing aspect. Of course by the time they had the homer simpson light bulb go off, and the D'Oh come out it had already came out, and no one would admit it was a dumb idea.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

It wasn't thought out well, since as someone as already stated Stormcloaks are very much against non-nords or anybody who doesn't think Talos is the end all to be all. I do find it hard to believe that none people that worked on the game brought it up, as to how a dark or high elf could join the stormcloaks it makes no sense from a role playing aspect. Of course by the time they had the homer simpson light bulb go off, and the D'Oh come out it had already came out, and no one would admit it was a dumb idea.

They added options so the player can RP. That is the point of RPGs. You feel that it is dumb to allow options for non-nords to join the rebels? Then never join the rebels on non-nords.