Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jeremius]

Hadvar was just following his orders. You can't blame a man for following orders.

Maybe I'm crazy, but if my orders were to cooperate in the murder of innocent people, I wouldn't be quite so willing to blindly follow them.

Now days many people in the army cooperate in the murder of innocent people. So it wouldn't be surprising it's happening in places like Skyrim.
Besides, Ulfric is responsible for murdering the High King thus triggering the civil war. All that blood on Ulfric's hands.

And what about the blood of the people kidnapped by the Thalmor before Ulfric killed Torygg? IS that blood on the hands of a man innocent in killing them?

 

[Epic Keith]

Maybe I'm crazy, but if my orders were to cooperate in the murder of innocent people, I wouldn't be quite so willing to blindly follow them.

Now days many people in the army cooperate in the murder of innocent people. So it wouldn't be surprising it's happening in places like Skyrim.
Besides, Ulfric is responsible for murdering the High King thus triggering the civil war. All that blood on Ulfric's hands.

And what about the blood of the people kidnapped by the Thalmor before Ulfric killed Torygg? IS that blood on the hands of a man innocent in killing them?

Thalmor actions had nothing to do with Torryg or the Empire. The Empire had no choice and HAD to accept the White-Gold Concordat or else face annihilation. Nobody liked the terms but it was better than being enslaved by elves.

And people still worshiped Talos after the WGC. Alvor said it himself.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And saying the Empire doesn't care about it's people is fairly incorrect. The first thing General Tullius said when Alduin attacked was, "Get the townspeople to safety!"
And Hadvar saves a little child from being a baby BBQ.
So the Empire actually does care.

Small instances, but largely? No. Many examples of their uncaring attitude towards citizens, the Empire is more concerned with making profits and keeping nobles happy.

This is the Empire that exploited slave labor in Morrowind.

The Empire had no choice and HAD to accept the White-Gold Concordat

So the Empire being unable to properly protect the citizenry, due to them being unprepared for war... even after being warned by the Penitus Oculatus and the Blades. People should give the Empire a pass? Why should people fight for something, that is unable to protect them?

We have no idea if the Empire had to accept the White-Gold Concordat, the Redguards showed another treaty was possible. I personally believe the Elder Council pressured Titus Mede II to surrender, and take peace. Their daggers at his back, figuratively... or not given he is killed later on.

The Mede Dynasty was politically weak, and knowing that Medes came into power was orchestrated by the Elder Council after they were reassured they could control them. It seems fairly logical; treaties, laws and legislation are the Elder Council's area, so the White-Gold Concordat is their doing.

In any event, the Empire is either unwilling or unable to properly defend the people. The Empire takes resources from Skyrim in return for protection they're not offering. Wayrest was lost in High Rock, Bravil and many other cities around Cyrodiil erupted into violence. Even Cheydinhal was lost to violence, and seems to have been that way up until 4E 200, only less than a year.

If the Empire can barely their house together in the Heartlands, their continued occupation of Skyrim is merely stretching themselves too far. The Legion is already stretched thin, Tullius isn't getting reinforcements (Even though Maven Black-Briar is given Imperial soldiers to personally escort mead shipments).

Mercenaries under the employ of the Empire are raiding trade shipments for supplies, citizens from Cyrodiil are escaping into Skyrim to get away from violence. The Empire needs to focus on Cyrodiil, and get their act together.

So far this shadow of an Empire has been one of inaction and incompetence, especially after many warnings about the Thalmor for the last hundred and fifty years.

 

[Jeremius]

Now days many people in the army cooperate in the murder of innocent people. So it wouldn't be surprising it's happening in places like Skyrim.
Besides, Ulfric is responsible for murdering the High King thus triggering the civil war. All that blood on Ulfric's hands.

And what about the blood of the people kidnapped by the Thalmor before Ulfric killed Torygg? IS that blood on the hands of a man innocent in killing them?

Thalmor actions had nothing to do with Torryg or the Empire. The Empire had no choice and HAD to accept the White-Gold Concordat or else face annihilation. Nobody liked the terms but it was better than being enslaved by elves.

And people still worshiped Talos after the WGC. Alvor said it himself.

IT was an example. If we are going to lump the blood of innocents during a war on the hands of a man who feels the need to fight for what he believes in, the the Empire should also have that blood as well, considering none of this would have happened had the Empire been properly prepared to fight the Dominion the first time and sent them crying back to their Altmer mommies.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And people still worshiped Talos after the WGC. Alvor said it himself.

The banning of Talos was just the final straw, not the main cause of the rebellion.

The Empire rejected the original terms because it would lead to Civil War, then they accept nearly the same terms later on. Basically a giant middle finger to the thousands that died for nothing, it even left the Empire worse off. Hammerfell lost with the Redguards feeling betrayed by Cyrodiil. Talos banned, making a rift between Skyrim and Cyrodiil.

As Ulfric puts it;" I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

 

[Raijin]

As much as I hate to say this, Hadvar was just following his orders. You can't blame a man for following orders. And saying Hadvar doesn't care would be incorrect. He does show his sympathy towards you after the officer ordered your execution by apologizing and assuring that your body would return to your homelands. Better than being stuck up on a pike if you ask me.

And saying the Empire doesn't care about it's people is fairly incorrect. The first thing General Tullius said when Alduin attacked was, "Get the townspeople to safety!"
And Hadvar saves a little child from being a baby BBQ.
So the Empire actually does care.

Which is better? Following orders no matter how brutal it is or follow your inner human instinct and your humanity? No Hadvar was not very apologetic and neither was Tullius when he mention that your imprisonment was a terrible mistake. He was like any other Imperial legion and trying to cozy up to you by recruiting you to the Imperial legion because the legion of skyrim is finding it very difficult to find new recruits. They're desperate and will go any lengths to get a new body to fight in the war.

 

[NENALATA]

Epic Keith said: ↑

As much as I hate to say this, Hadvar was just following his orders. You can't blame a man for following orders. And saying Hadvar doesn't care would be incorrect. He does show his sympathy towards you after the officer ordered your execution by apologizing and assuring that your body would return to your homelands. Better than being stuck up on a pike if you ask me.

And saying the Empire doesn't care about it's people is fairly incorrect. The first thing General Tullius said when Alduin attacked was, "Get the townspeople to safety!"
And Hadvar saves a little child from being a baby BBQ.
So the Empire actually does care.​

Which is better? Following orders no matter how brutal it is or follow your inner human instinct and your humanity? No Hadvar was not very apologetic and neither was Tullius when he mention that your imprisonment was a terrible mistake. He was like any other Imperial legion and trying to cozy up to you by recruiting you to the Imperial legion because the legion of skyrim is finding it very difficult to find new recruits. They're desperate and will go any lengths to get a new body to fight in the war.

Wait a sec... what do you mean your humanity? Unless I'm badly mistaken the human race is not very pretty. Our humanity has caused us to do some very evil things. Furthermore, when you say "humanity" it's also very human to follow the orders from Officers of whom you SWORE with an oath to obey.

It's not Hadvar's place to make that call. And it's also very juvenile to keep pointing him out. Unlike the Stormcloaks, Hadvar honored the oaths he took to the Officer's of the Empire. He pointed out the mistake and the Officer gave him an order. When you join the military, this is what you do. It's called being a soldier.

 

[NENALATA]

Epic Keith said: ↑

And people still worshiped Talos after the WGC. Alvor said it himself.​

The banning of Talos was just the final straw, not the main cause of the rebellion.

The Empire rejected the original terms because it would lead to Civil War, then they accept nearly the same terms later on. Basically a giant middle finger to the thousands that died for nothing, it even left the Empire worse off. Hammerfell lost with the Redguards feeling betrayed by Cyrodiil. Talos banned, making a rift between Skyrim and Cyrodiil.

As Ulfric puts it;" I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

And people still worshiped Talos after the WGC. Alvor said it himself.

The banning of Talos was just the final straw, not the main cause of the rebellion.

The Empire rejected the original terms because it would lead to Civil War, then they accept nearly the same terms later on. Basically a giant middle finger to the thousands that died for nothing, it even left the Empire worse off. Hammerfell lost with the Redguards feeling betrayed by Cyrodiil. Talos banned, making a rift between Skyrim and Cyrodiil.

As Ulfric puts it;" I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

The Empire had absolutely no way of knowing the WGC would result in a Civil War. That's speculation. Surpised Jeremius didn't point that out. Anyways, the Empire fought the Great War, rejecting the Thalmor's demands because what they stood for on principle conflicted with what the Thalmor wanted. The Empire stood up for it's values, which is very easy to verify, and then the war came.

One way to see thru the false information in Stormcloak posts is to keep an eye open for the twists in logic. For example, they're a charasmatic cause, Ulfric is very self-centered, so their logic will always point back to them. Even though there were no Stormcloaks around back in that day, the WGC wasn't signed because it would start the Civil War. Which is a fallacy because there's no way of knowing that it would.

As a case in point, notice how Ulfric says, "all the fighting that I've already done hasn't been for nothing". From the first 5 mins of the game, Ralof states that making Ulfric High King is one of their main objectives. Even though you find out later, that's NOT how it's supposed to be done. Again, the selfish, arrogant, entitlement mentality that the logic in their brains runs on.

 

[NENALATA]

imaginepageant said: ↑

Epic Keith said: ↑

Hadvar was just following his orders. You can't blame a man for following orders.​

Maybe I'm crazy, but if my orders were to cooperate in the murder of innocent people, I wouldn't be quite so willing to blindly follow them.​

Now days many people in the army cooperate in the murder of innocent people. So it wouldn't be surprising it's happening in places like Skyrim.
Besides, Ulfric is responsible for murdering the High King thus triggering the civil war. All that blood on Ulfric's hands.

Exactly. But has anyone noticed how the Stormcloaks, NEVER take any responsibility? It's always the Empire's fault. Skyrim had a functioning local Gov practically *standing by* to Declare Ind and Ulfric engineered a way to murder the High King and throw his entire country into chaos. Ulfric is responsible for the deaths of HUNDREDS/THOUSANDS? of his own COUNTRYMEN + Imperials when he did not give his Gov a change to do it's job.

And don't tell me challenging Torygg to a duel is an example because that has nothing to do with any formal petition or forum to discuss independence. That should have come afterwards if Torygg declined the petition.

 

[Raijin]

Wait a sec... what do you mean your humanity? Unless I'm badly mistaken the human race is not very pretty. Our humanity has caused us to do some very evil things. Furthermore, when you say "humanity" it's also very human to follow the orders from Officers of whom you SWORE with an oath to obey.

It's not Hadvar's place to make that call. And it's also very juvenile to keep pointing him out. Unlike the Stormcloaks, Hadvar honored the oaths he took to the Officer's of the Empire. He pointed out the mistake and the Officer gave him an order. When you join the military, this is what you do. It's called being a soldier.

What do you mean about "Our humanity has caused us to do some very evil things."? My humanity has never done anything evil. My humanity has actually saved lives if anything. Also it's human to know what is right and what is wrong. Sure you can swore an Oath all you want, but that doesn't mean that you cannot act like a human being with humanity.

Many of the Stormcloaks are veterans of the Great war... a war that was caused by Emperor Mede II poor choice of pissing off a much stronger faction. His generals warned him about his course of actions, and he did it anyways. He lead so many people to their deaths for NOTHING.

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

 

[Mirrored]

To be honest, both the Imperials and the Stormcloaks have their flaws, but I have to throw my lot with Ulfric.

The Empire suffers from a lack of leadership, as Titus Mede II is spineless and kowtowed to the Dominion. I've seen some people claim that the Empire didn't have any choice but to sign the White-Gold Concordant if they wished to survive and remain free, but this is hardly accurate.

Hammerfell was left out to dry by the Empire and had to fight the Dominion alone after the signing of the Concordant, yet they managed to force the Dominion to retreat from their territory and sign a treaty to end the war that didn't involve massive concessions. Surely if a single province managed to stand up to the Dominion, the Empire could have as well?

Of course, there is also the fact that the Empire has been effectively enslaved by the Dominion through the Concordant, so the 'They had to surrender or be enslaved' argument is rather moot. The Empire has to pay tribute to the Dominion, and all it's citizens are forced to toe the line of Thalmor religious doctrine, or else. The Dominion also forced the Empire to disband the Blades, which more or less served as the Emperor's intelligence agency.

To top things off, the Thalmor are allowed to freely patrol the Empire to weed out dissidents and enforce the terms of the treaty, and they can imprison/torture people with full Imperial support. The Empire remains 'independent' in only the vaguest sense of the word.

On the other hand, the biggest criticism leveled at Ulfric and the Stormcloaks is that they are 'racist', ignoring the fact that they are hardly alone in their discrimination against elves and beast folk. Even cities firmly under Imperial control don't allow the Khajit within their walls, and the Legion is hardly brimming with Mer in their ranks. On top of that, there is very little difference between how Ulfric treats the Mer and how the Imperials do. Even in Windhelm, Dunmer and Altmer are allowed to own and operate businesses. The only real difference is that Ulfric confines the Argonians to the docks.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire had absolutely no way of knowing the WGC would result in a Civil War. That's speculation. Surpised Jeremius didn't point that out. Anyways, the Empire fought the Great War, rejecting the Thalmor's demands because what they stood for on principle conflicted with what the Thalmor wanted. The Empire stood up for it's values, which is very easy to verify, and then the war came.

The Empire rejected the original terms because it would mean Civil War. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war.

One way to see thru the false information in Stormcloak posts is to keep an eye open for the twists in logic. For example, they're a charasmatic cause, Ulfric is very self-centered, so their logic will always point back to them. Even though there were no Stormcloaks around back in that day, the WGC wasn't signed because it would start the Civil War. Which is a fallacy because there's no way of knowing that it would.

There have been Stormcloaks since 4E 176. They were the original Stormcloaks, "The Stormcloaks were forced to retake the Reach on our own, but that taste of independence emboldened them. And the Forsworn were born."

"My father was a Stormcloak soldier in his younger days."

"Lilija joined the Stormcloaks many years ago, when the first of the skirmishes broke out across Skyrim. I was so proud of her. She served as a Battle Maiden, using her healing arts to help those that fell on the battlefield. Never even lifted a blade in her life."

"I was once, but not any more. I was wounded in a skirmish up near Windhelm. This was years ago, mind you."

As a case in point, notice how Ulfric says, "all the fighting that I've already done hasn't been for nothing". From the first 5 mins of the game, Ralof states that making Ulfric High King is one of their main objectives. Even though you find out later, that's NOT how it's supposed to be done. Again, the selfish, arrogant, entitlement mentality that the logic in their brains runs on.

So the Stormcloaks believe Ulfric Stormcloak should be their High King, is that wrong? Why is it wrong for them to want him as High King, and not wrong for Imperials to want Elisif the Puppet as High Queen?

 

[Epic Keith]

There have been Stormcloaks since 4E 176. They were the original Stormcloaks, "The Stormcloaks were forced to retake the Reach on our own, but that taste of independence emboldened them. And the Forsworn were born."

"My father was a Stormcloak soldier in his younger days."

"Lilija joined the Stormcloaks many years ago, when the first of the skirmishes broke out across Skyrim. I was so proud of her. She served as a Battle Maiden, using her healing arts to help those that fell on the battlefield. Never even lifted a blade in her life."

"I was once, but not any more. I was wounded in a skirmish up near Windhelm. This was years ago, mind you."

Thank you for reminding me about the Reach. Are we going to talk about how the Empire did slavery and torture while Ulfric just waltzed into Markarth and TORTURED and KILLED men, women, elderly and children alike. It didn't matter if they were forsworn or Nord brothers and sisters.

Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.
So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.

The Empire stuck their neck out for Ulfric and his Stormies just so they could go and worship Talos.

Yes I agree that the Empire is weak, corrupt, cruel and may not have the strength to rule 3 provinces but Ulfric a bloodthirsty barbarian who only cares about songs and his legacy. Even when facing death he asked that the Dragonborn kill him because it would make for 'a better song'.

So the Stormcloaks believe Ulfric Stormcloak should be their High King, is that wrong? Why is it wrong for them to want him as High King, and not wrong for Imperials to want Elisif the Puppet as High Queen?

Only thing wrong is Ulfric killed Torryg right when he was about to declare independence. And Elisif is no puppet, she does say to one of her subjects, "General Tullius does not rule this city"

 

[DrunkenMage]

Thank you for reminding me about the Reach. Are we going to talk about how the Empire did slavery and torture while Ulfric just waltzed into Markarth and TORTURED and KILLED men, women, elderly and children alike. It didn't matter if they were forsworn or Nord brothers and sisters.


The Empire stuck their neck out for Ulfric and his Stormies just so they could go and worship Talos.

I'm glad you brought up the Bear of Markarth... but it is refuted by Jarl Igmund himself, he destroys the credibility of the book. You also have these other refutations.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00092331
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00092335

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000e1623

http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thonar's_Journal

Those 'executions' were done by the Jarl. Notice how none of those who were present around the 'Markarth Incident' speak about Ulfric Stormcloak.

Yes I agree that the Empire is weak, corrupt, cruel and may not have the strength to rule 3 provinces but Ulfric a bloodthirsty barbarian who only cares about songs and his legacy. Even when facing death he asked that the Dragonborn kill him because it would make for 'a better song'.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00065932

Which is explained by the developers in the notes. 'fatalistic, defiant, thinking of glory in the after live'

Only thing wrong is Ulfric killed Torryg right when he was about to declare independence. And Elisif is no puppet, she does say to one of her subjects, "General Tullius does not rule this city"

Except he wasn't, High King Torygg was known to give large speeches of Empire this and Empire that, even the Court Wizard makes mention "Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart"

Elisif is a puppet. Her steward says that, but Elisif mainly cares about a parade and complains politics is unfair.

Elisif: "Oh, very well. I can see there's no changing your stubborn Nord minds. But when this war is won, I will have my parade!"

Elisif: "Again? He can't simply cancel an appointment with the Jarl! He serves in my capital city!"
Falk: "I'm afraid he can. His authority comes from the emperor. Who you also serve, technically."
Elisif: "He uses all of Haafingar's resources, and doesn't answer to me in the slightest? This hardly seems fair."
Falk: ""Fair" is a word rarely applied to politics, my grace. I'm afraid you must learn to accept this."

 

[DrunkenMage]

So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the Legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty.

 

[Epic Keith]

HOW THE HELL ARE YOU BETTER AT DEBATING BEING A STORMCLOAK?!!

 

[Raijin]

Elisif is a puppet. Her steward says that, but Elisif mainly cares about a parade and complains politics is unfair.

Elisif: "Oh, very well. I can see there's no changing your stubborn Nord minds. But when this war is won, I will have my parade!"

Elisif: "Again? He can't simply cancel an appointment with the Jarl! He serves in my capital city!"
Falk: "I'm afraid he can. His authority comes from the emperor. Who you also serve, technically."
Elisif: "He uses all of Haafingar's resources, and doesn't answer to me in the slightest? This hardly seems fair."
Falk: ""Fair" is a word rarely applied to politics, my grace. I'm afraid you must learn to accept this."

Look at what High King Torygg did to his people! Ulfric did right by killing him.

 

[DrunkenMage]

We're fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind to their people's suffering.

 

[AS88]

We're fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind to their people's suffering.

I wish you'd cite your quotes with who/where they come from, to see if there's context or a response. Although I sense that's part of the reason why you don't

 

[DrunkenMage]

I wish you'd cite your quotes with who/where they come from, to see if there's context or a response. Although I sense that's part of the reason why you don't

That is a quote from Ulfric Stormcloak. The context is 'Why are you fighting this war' asked by the player character.

If there is a needed context to get the picture, or if it's dialogue between NPCs and responses, I put the whole thing.

Otherwise, it is fine to stand alone. If you want the whole thing, http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c348f