Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Lunaruse

The Milkdrinking Elf
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Ulfric Stormcloak helps the local economy by ordering pizza from mom and pops pizzeria.

That's why Ulfric Stormcloak should be High King of Skyrim. He cares for small businesses.

All hail to Ulfric!
You are the High King!
In your great honor
we drink and we sing!
Unless you are Arcadia or Adrianne Avenicci
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
tumblr_mql1rpcdb71sqxr43o1_500.jpg


Ulfric Stormcloak helps the local economy by ordering pizza from mom and pops pizzeria.

That's why Ulfric Stormcloak should be High King of Skyrim. He cares for small businesses.

All hail to Ulfric!
You are the High King!
In your great honor
we drink and we sing!
Unless you are Arcadia or Adrianne Avenicci

Not everyone makes it. It's part of life.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Not everyone makes it. It's part of life.

Must be interesting, to be the only Stormcloak who is shunned and not trusted since you practice magic. Maybe your friends will force the Mages from the College out of Skyrim with their torches and pitchforks.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Not everyone makes it. It's part of life.

Must be interesting, to be the only Stormcloak who is shunned and not trusted since you practice magic. Maybe your friends will force the Mages from the College out of Skyrim with their torches and pitchforks.

While my colleagues may not trust magic, they do not hate us mages. Our true High King even has a mage that is in service to him. In fact his court wizard seems to be quite thrilled to be in service to him so apparently Mages are not as hated by the Stormcloaks as you think they are.

It is highly unlikely that our true High King would order his army to drive the Mages from the college out of Skyrim.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Not everyone makes it. It's part of life.

Must be interesting, to be the only Stormcloak who is shunned and not trusted since you practice magic. Maybe your friends will force the Mages from the College out of Skyrim with their torches and pitchforks.

While my colleagues may not trust magic, they do not hate us mages. Our true High King even has a mage that is in service to him. In fact his court wizard seems to be quite thrilled to be in service to him so apparently Mages are not as hated by the Stormcloaks as you think they are.

It is highly unlikely that our true High King would order his army to drive the Mages from the college out of Skyrim.

The Windhelm Court Wizard remains no matter who is Jarl. Thrilled seems to be something of a long stretch, he only says if Ulfric needs a favor he has it.

Ulfric would not distrust magic, he uses magic. Mages are hated all around Skyrim. Besides with many Mages being non-Nords and the Stormcloaks being more xenophobic. I'm sure they love having powerful elves in their lands.

It is kind of amusing, being a Dark Elf in Windhelm you're treated like dirt and live in a slum. Being a Dark Elf in Winterhold you're feared and left alone.
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
I believe there has been a little misconception over time regarding Ulfric Stormcloak's treatment of Dark Elves in Windhelm. Whilst some of the populace has proven to be prejudiced towards them, I feel he suffers the blame for their misguided beliefs. Does Ulfric treat Dark Elves like dirt purely because they are Dark Elves? Many believe yes, although I remain unconvinced. After all, is it not fair to say Ulfric treats many of his people like dirt, Nords included? Unlike the other Jarls of Skyrim he has allowed them to live as a community in his city. Many may argue he's segregated them from other townspeople, thus, he must distrust them or be prejudiced himself. Do we know this to be true, or is it merely convenient for those of us who detest him to claim as such?
Perhaps, this segregation is purely for the Dunmer's own comfort and or protection. We've seen examples of Nord harassment in game that may support this theory. The Altmer shop vendor, when questioned even eludes to the fact that the Dunmer's stubborn attitude may very well be what's holding them back in Windhelm. She seems to be thriving, so for a man who supposedly detests any Elf alive, it raises an interesting question. Why allow an Altmer, no less, a home and business and deny the same to a Dunmer out of racial reasoning? It just doesn't add up to me personally. If he was as black and white about he's feelings towards Elves as people are quick to assume, then how is this explained? Windhelm's marketplace is full of Elves, including Dunmer making money?
The way I see it if Ulfric hates the Dunmer that much, why has he not kicked them out? After all, the only governing body he would have to answer to being a Jarl would be the Empire, correct? It's not as if he cares what the very people he's trying to drive out of Skyrim think. So what stops him? Ulfric's city is suffering as a whole, not just the Dunmer in the grey quarter, so that's why I'm unconvinced he treats them like dirt, after all, he feeds and shelters them.
Perhaps as refugees, they should be a little more gracious, after all, it's a long walk back to Morrowind and nobody will beg them to stay.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I believe there has been a little misconception over time regarding Ulfric Stormcloak's treatment of Dark Elves in Windhelm. Whilst some of the populace has proven to be prejudiced towards them, I feel he suffers the blame for their misguided beliefs. Does Ulfric treat Dark Elves like dirt purely because they are Dark Elves? Many believe yes, although I remain unconvinced. After all, is it not fair to say Ulfric treats many of his people like dirt, Nords included? Unlike the other Jarls of Skyrim he has allowed them to live as a community in his city. Many may argue he's segregated them from other townspeople, thus, he must distrust them or be prejudiced himself. Do we know this to be true, or is it merely convenient for those of us who detest him to claim as such?
Perhaps, this segregation is purely for the Dunmer's own comfort and or protection. We've seen examples of Nord harassment in game that may support this theory. The Altmer shop vendor, when questioned even eludes to the fact that the Dunmer's stubborn attitude may very well be what's holding them back in Windhelm. She seems to be thriving, so for a man who supposedly detests any Elf alive, it raises an interesting question. Why allow an Altmer, no less, a home and business and deny the same to a Dunmer out of racial reasoning? It just doesn't add up to me personally. If he was as black and white about he's feelings towards Elves as people are quick to assume, then how is this explained? Windhelm's marketplace is full of Elves, including Dunmer making money?
The way I see it if Ulfric hates the Dunmer that much, why has he not kicked them out? After all, the only governing body he would have to answer to being a Jarl would be the Empire, correct? It's not as if he cares what the very people he's trying to drive out of Skyrim think. So what stops him? Ulfric's city is suffering as a whole, not just the Dunmer in the grey quarter, so that's why I'm unconvinced he treats them like dirt, after all, he feeds and shelters them.
Perhaps as refugees, they should be a little more gracious, after all, it's a long walk back to Morrowind and nobody will beg them to stay.

It isn't as simple, he turns a blind eye to their plight. Ignores all their requests for basic things. It was originally called the Snow Quarter and is now renamed the "Gray Quarter" as an insult.

The Altmer has connections and she's also brand new to the city, just arrived off the boat.

The treatment of Dunmer is simply just one part of the overall argument. He's banished the Argonians from the city walls, forcing them to sleep out on the Docks. He doesn't aid Non-Nord caravans that are attacked in his Hold, but he's the first to muster the men when a group of Nords are attacked.

"It's a new day in Windhelm. The Stormcloaks are gone, and so is their prejudice."

"You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm."

Ulfric's city itself is suffering yes, it's in a state of disrepair and the stockpiles are empty due to poor management and Jarlship. The Dunmer have been in Windhelm for a great many years, they are tolerated because Ulfric's father and his fathers before were kind to them.

"There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were." - Scourge of the Gray Quarter

The only issues regarding races appears in Windhelm the seat of Stormcloak ideology and belief, basically a representation of a Skyrim with no Imperial influence.

Though the person you mean who causes most of the problems, threatening what appears to be torture or worse to the Dark Elves and yelling insults in the Gray Quarter in the early hours of the morning is none other than Galmar Stone-Fist's brother, Rolff Stone-Fist.

Looking at Solitude and Windhelm, seat of Imperial power & seat of Stormcloak power. I can see which is more of a benefit to all races.
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
I believe there has been a little misconception over time regarding Ulfric Stormcloak's treatment of Dark Elves in Windhelm. Whilst some of the populace has proven to be prejudiced towards them, I feel he suffers the blame for their misguided beliefs. Does Ulfric treat Dark Elves like dirt purely because they are Dark Elves? Many believe yes, although I remain unconvinced. After all, is it not fair to say Ulfric treats many of his people like dirt, Nords included? Unlike the other Jarls of Skyrim he has allowed them to live as a community in his city. Many may argue he's segregated them from other townspeople, thus, he must distrust them or be prejudiced himself. Do we know this to be true, or is it merely convenient for those of us who detest him to claim as such?
Perhaps, this segregation is purely for the Dunmer's own comfort and or protection. We've seen examples of Nord harassment in game that may support this theory. The Altmer shop vendor, when questioned even eludes to the fact that the Dunmer's stubborn attitude may very well be what's holding them back in Windhelm. She seems to be thriving, so for a man who supposedly detests any Elf alive, it raises an interesting question. Why allow an Altmer, no less, a home and business and deny the same to a Dunmer out of racial reasoning? It just doesn't add up to me personally. If he was as black and white about he's feelings towards Elves as people are quick to assume, then how is this explained? Windhelm's marketplace is full of Elves, including Dunmer making money?
The way I see it if Ulfric hates the Dunmer that much, why has he not kicked them out? After all, the only governing body he would have to answer to being a Jarl would be the Empire, correct? It's not as if he cares what the very people he's trying to drive out of Skyrim think. So what stops him? Ulfric's city is suffering as a whole, not just the Dunmer in the grey quarter, so that's why I'm unconvinced he treats them like dirt, after all, he feeds and shelters them.
Perhaps as refugees, they should be a little more gracious, after all, it's a long walk back to Morrowind and nobody will beg them to stay.

It isn't as simple, he turns a blind eye to their plight. Ignores all their requests for basic things. It was originally called the Snow Quarter and is now renamed the "Gray Quarter" as an insult.

The Altmer has connections and she's also brand new to the city, just arrived off the boat.

The treatment of Dunmer is simply just one part of the overall argument. He's banished the Argonians from the city walls, forcing them to sleep out on the Docks. He doesn't aid Non-Nord caravans that are attacked in his Hold, but he's the first to muster the men when a group of Nords are attacked.

"It's a new day in Windhelm. The Stormcloaks are gone, and so is their prejudice."

"You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm."

Ulfric's city itself is suffering yes, it's in a state of disrepair and the stockpiles are empty due to poor management and Jarlship. The Dunmer have been in Windhelm for a great many years, they are tolerated because Ulfric's father and his fathers before were kind to them.

"There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were." - Scourge of the Gray Quarter

The only issues regarding races appears in Windhelm the seat of Stormcloak ideology and belief, basically a representation of a Skyrim with no Imperial influence.

Though the person you mean who causes most of the problems, threatening what appears to be torture or worse to the Dark Elves and yelling insults in the Gray Quarter in the early hours of the morning is none other than Galmar Stone-Fist's brother, Rolff Stone-Fist.

Looking at Solitude and Windhelm, seat of Imperial power & seat of Stormcloak power. I can see which is more of a benefit to all races.

I agree with you for the most part. Although, after reading the Scourge of the Gray Quarter, it is apparent to me that the Dunmer of Riften and the Dunmer of Windhelm, are vastly different in that one population works and contributes (Riften) and the other does not. Is it not fair to then suggest that that in itself may be the reason for the Dunmer's persecution in Windhelm? Essentially, they are lazy and refuse to contribute as their wiser kin south in Riften do. This is also something Niranyre hints at in conversation. The equivalent of being on the dole and let's be honest, those people on the dole suffer persecution too, not for the colour of their skin but rather the fact we as taxpayers support them. The social similarities are very interesting wouldn't you agree?
 

Lunaruse

The Milkdrinking Elf
I believe there has been a little misconception over time regarding Ulfric Stormcloak's treatment of Dark Elves in Windhelm. Whilst some of the populace has proven to be prejudiced towards them, I feel he suffers the blame for their misguided beliefs. Does Ulfric treat Dark Elves like dirt purely because they are Dark Elves? Many believe yes, although I remain unconvinced. After all, is it not fair to say Ulfric treats many of his people like dirt, Nords included? Unlike the other Jarls of Skyrim he has allowed them to live as a community in his city. Many may argue he's segregated them from other townspeople, thus, he must distrust them or be prejudiced himself. Do we know this to be true, or is it merely convenient for those of us who detest him to claim as such?
Perhaps, this segregation is purely for the Dunmer's own comfort and or protection. We've seen examples of Nord harassment in game that may support this theory. The Altmer shop vendor, when questioned even eludes to the fact that the Dunmer's stubborn attitude may very well be what's holding them back in Windhelm. She seems to be thriving, so for a man who supposedly detests any Elf alive, it raises an interesting question. Why allow an Altmer, no less, a home and business and deny the same to a Dunmer out of racial reasoning? It just doesn't add up to me personally. If he was as black and white about he's feelings towards Elves as people are quick to assume, then how is this explained? Windhelm's marketplace is full of Elves, including Dunmer making money?
The way I see it if Ulfric hates the Dunmer that much, why has he not kicked them out? After all, the only governing body he would have to answer to being a Jarl would be the Empire, correct? It's not as if he cares what the very people he's trying to drive out of Skyrim think. So what stops him? Ulfric's city is suffering as a whole, not just the Dunmer in the grey quarter, so that's why I'm unconvinced he treats them like dirt, after all, he feeds and shelters them.
Perhaps as refugees, they should be a little more gracious, after all, it's a long walk back to Morrowind and nobody will beg them to stay.

It isn't as simple, he turns a blind eye to their plight. Ignores all their requests for basic things. It was originally called the Snow Quarter and is now renamed the "Gray Quarter" as an insult.

The Altmer has connections and she's also brand new to the city, just arrived off the boat.

The treatment of Dunmer is simply just one part of the overall argument. He's banished the Argonians from the city walls, forcing them to sleep out on the Docks. He doesn't aid Non-Nord caravans that are attacked in his Hold, but he's the first to muster the men when a group of Nords are attacked.

"It's a new day in Windhelm. The Stormcloaks are gone, and so is their prejudice."

"You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm."

Ulfric's city itself is suffering yes, it's in a state of disrepair and the stockpiles are empty due to poor management and Jarlship. The Dunmer have been in Windhelm for a great many years, they are tolerated because Ulfric's father and his fathers before were kind to them.

"There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were." - Scourge of the Gray Quarter

The only issues regarding races appears in Windhelm the seat of Stormcloak ideology and belief, basically a representation of a Skyrim with no Imperial influence.

Though the person you mean who causes most of the problems, threatening what appears to be torture or worse to the Dark Elves and yelling insults in the Gray Quarter in the early hours of the morning is none other than Galmar Stone-Fist's brother, Rolff Stone-Fist.

Looking at Solitude and Windhelm, seat of Imperial power & seat of Stormcloak power. I can see which is more of a benefit to all races.

I agree with you for the most part. Although, after reading the Scourge of the Gray Quarter, it is apparent to me that the Dunmer of Riften and the Dunmer of Windhelm, are vastly different in that one population works and contributes (Riften) and the other does not. Is it not fair to then suggest that that in itself may be the reason for the Dunmer's persecution in Windhelm? Essentially, they are lazy and refuse to contribute as their wiser kin south in Riften do. This is also something Niranyre hints at in conversation. The equivalent of being on the dole and let's be honest, those people on the dole suffer persecution too, not for the colour of their skin but rather the fact we as taxpayers support them. The social similarities are very interesting wouldn't you agree?

The Dunmer of the Grey Quarter aren't just a bunch of lazy people who sit around all day. Ambarys Rendar owns and runs the New Gnsis Conerclub with the help of Mathyr Elenil. Revyn Sadri owns and runs Sadri's Used wares. Belyn Hlaalu owns and works on a farm in the snow and still grows crops, just like the Nords do. Obviously there are a few unemployed Dunmer in the Grey Quarter, but at least their unemployed don't go harassing other races (I'm looking at you Rolff Stone-Fist). Seems like the other residents are just making excuses for their racism.
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
It isn't as simple, he turns a blind eye to their plight. Ignores all their requests for basic things. It was originally called the Snow Quarter and is now renamed the "Gray Quarter" as an insult.

The Altmer has connections and she's also brand new to the city, just arrived off the boat.

The treatment of Dunmer is simply just one part of the overall argument. He's banished the Argonians from the city walls, forcing them to sleep out on the Docks. He doesn't aid Non-Nord caravans that are attacked in his Hold, but he's the first to muster the men when a group of Nords are attacked.

"It's a new day in Windhelm. The Stormcloaks are gone, and so is their prejudice."

"You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm."

Ulfric's city itself is suffering yes, it's in a state of disrepair and the stockpiles are empty due to poor management and Jarlship. The Dunmer have been in Windhelm for a great many years, they are tolerated because Ulfric's father and his fathers before were kind to them.

"There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were." - Scourge of the Gray Quarter

The only issues regarding races appears in Windhelm the seat of Stormcloak ideology and belief, basically a representation of a Skyrim with no Imperial influence.

Though the person you mean who causes most of the problems, threatening what appears to be torture or worse to the Dark Elves and yelling insults in the Gray Quarter in the early hours of the morning is none other than Galmar Stone-Fist's brother, Rolff Stone-Fist.

Looking at Solitude and Windhelm, seat of Imperial power & seat of Stormcloak power. I can see which is more of a benefit to all races.

I agree with you for the most part. Although, after reading the Scourge of the Gray Quarter, it is apparent to me that the Dunmer of Riften and the Dunmer of Windhelm, are vastly different in that one population works and contributes (Riften) and the other does not. Is it not fair to then suggest that that in itself may be the reason for the Dunmer's persecution in Windhelm? Essentially, they are lazy and refuse to contribute as their wiser kin south in Riften do. This is also something Niranyre hints at in conversation. The equivalent of being on the dole and let's be honest, those people on the dole suffer persecution too, not for the colour of their skin but rather the fact we as taxpayers support them. The social similarities are very interesting wouldn't you agree?

The Dunmer of the Grey Quarter aren't just a bunch of lazy people who sit around all day. Ambarys Rendar owns and runs the New Gnsis Conerclub with the help of Mathyr Elenil. Revyn Sadri owns and runs Sadri's Used wares. Belyn Hlaalu owns and works on a farm in the snow and still grows crops, just like the Nords do. Obviously there are a few unemployed Dunmer in the Grey Quarter, but at least their unemployed don't go harassing other races (I'm looking at you Rolff Stone-Fist). Seems like the other residents are just making excuses for their racism.

Agreed. I touched on all this in an earlier posting on this thread. That would have to mean then that the author of Scourge of the Gray Quarter is one of those other residents you're referring to, or the book is not negative propaganda at all, rather a factual account of day to day life in Windhelm. Though, I'm still unsure.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
I believe there has been a little misconception over time regarding Ulfric Stormcloak's treatment of Dark Elves in Windhelm.
He enforces a policy of segregation upon the Dunmer restricting them to reside in the Gray Quarter. That's simply a matter of fact notwithstanding the repeated failed attempts of some players to assert to the contrary. An apartheid policy regarding living arrangements is inherently racist regardless of what level of malice one might ascribe to its enforcer in chief, which is the Jarl of Eastmarch.
Unlike the other Jarls of Skyrim he has allowed them to live as a community in his city.
Equating an enforced segregation policy to some form of enlightenment requires a twisted view of what is going on with regards to the Dunmer in Windhelm and is like saying the cities in the southern states of the US during the early twentieth century forcing black people to the back of the bus was an enlightened form of allowing them to live as a community.
Many may argue he's segregated them from other townspeople, thus, he must distrust them or be prejudiced himself. Do we know this to be true, or is it merely convenient for those of us who detest him to claim as such?
The only posts I've read that claimed it's because he distrusts them are from apologists for Ulfric as justification for segregating them to the Gray Quarter, and it makes absolutely no sense because the Dunmer are free to move about the city the same as everyone else. To the extent he suspects them of doing something detrimental to the security of the city or Hold the segregation policy does nothing to address it. If he enforces the segregation policy rather than rescinding it with a simple edict that speaks for the fact that he believes in the policy which speaks to his racial prejudice.
Perhaps, this segregation is purely for the Dunmer's own comfort and or protection. We've seen examples of Nord harassment in game that may support this theory.
Again residential segregation does absolutely nothing to protect the Dunmer from such actions. Suvaris is harrassed outside the Gray Quarter which underscores this rather obvious fact.
The Altmer shop vendor, when questioned even eludes to the fact that the Dunmer's stubborn attitude may very well be what's holding them back in Windhelm.
Calling something a fact doesn't magically make it so, particularly when it's clearly mere opinion. That aside, it's completely irrelevant to the segregation of the Dunmer. That's by law and only one person can make that otherwise.
She seems to be thriving, so for a man who supposedly detests any Elf alive, it raises an interesting question. Why allow an Altmer, no less, a home and business and deny the same to a Dunmer out of racial reasoning? It just doesn't add up to me personally.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have no clue how Niranye makes her living notwithstanding that it's implied in dialogues between her and other NPC's even if you never did the Thieves Guild quest line. A substantial portion of her trade is illegal. She deals in stolen and smuggled goods and contraband in general, and, if you do the Thieves Guild quest line, for the Thieves Guild in particular.

In addition Dunmer aren't fungible with the Altmers in examining their situation in Windhelm. That's a straw man. Ulfric's segregation policy is limited to the Dunmer, not all Mer. Equating the two races, observing that he doesn't segeregate the Altmer, and then concluding that it speaks to anything regarding his prejudices against the Dunmer is a logical fallacy.

Last, as further proof that Niranye's opinion is merely just that, there are in fact successful Dunmer in Windhelm. Belyn Halaalu is a farm owner who is successful enough to employ a Nord farmhand. Notwithstanding his success, he is consigned to live in the Gray Quarter.
The way I see it if Ulfric hates the Dunmer that much, why has he not kicked them out?
There seems to be this misguided notion among players that in order to harbor racist attitudes and enforce racist practices, one has to be rabidly racist and go to great extremes. This probably goes to the heart of the matter as to why some players who like or otherwise defend Ulfric go into denial about his racist policy regarding the Dunmer notwithstanding what the game content irrefutably presents to the player. His prejudices simply aren't that inflamed and the mildness of the policy reflects that. If it were otherwise he would have far more extreme restrictions imposed on the Dunmer and might not even have to kick them out as they would find such conditions rapidly intolerable and leave on their own. The fact that they don't only reinforces the notion that the impact of the policy, while insulting and racially prejudiced, is relatively tolerable for them which is why they continue to reside in Windhelm. It also speaks to the fact that Ulfric isn't some kind of despicable ogre for enforcing segregation in Windhelm. It speaks badly of his character but in a manner that is as mild as the policy itself. There are certainly things in the game one can discover that reflect exponentially more badly on his character than the Dunmer policy in Windhelm.
...he feeds and shelters them...
He doesn't feed and shelter them. The Dunmer's pay for their own upkeep the same as any other resident of Windhelm.
Perhaps as refugees, they should be a little more gracious, after all, it's a long walk back to Morrowind and nobody will beg them to stay.
Their status as refugees is irrelevant. They've been living in Windhelm for over a hundred years. They're not under any obligation to be any more gracious than any other resident and they contribute to the society as citizens the same as any other.

Scourge of the Gray Quarter simply doesn't comport with the reality of Windhelm as presented by the game content. The Dunmer in Windhelm do earn their livelihoods the same as any other citizen. Torbjorn Shatter-Shield certainly doesn't have any parental affection for his Argonian employees. The fact that much of what's claimed in the book is refuted by what one observes in Windhelm should tell you everything you need to know about it's reliability as an objective source of information.
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
I believe there has been a little misconception over time regarding Ulfric Stormcloak's treatment of Dark Elves in Windhelm.
He enforces a policy of segregation upon the Dunmer restricting them to reside in the Gray Quarter. That's simply a matter of fact notwithstanding the repeated failed attempts of some players to assert to the contrary. An apartheid policy regarding living arrangements is inherently racist regardless of what level of malice one might ascribe to its enforcer in chief, which is the Jarl of Eastmarch.
Unlike the other Jarls of Skyrim he has allowed them to live as a community in his city.
Equating an enforced segregation policy to some form of enlightenment requires a twisted view of what is going on with regards to the Dunmer in Windhelm and is like saying the cities in the southern states of the US during the early twentieth century forcing black people to the back of the bus was an enlightened form of allowing them to live as a community.
Many may argue he's segregated them from other townspeople, thus, he must distrust them or be prejudiced himself. Do we know this to be true, or is it merely convenient for those of us who detest him to claim as such?
The only posts I've read that claimed it's because he distrusts them are from apologists for Ulfric as justification for segregating them to the Gray Quarter, and it makes absolutely no sense because the Dunmer are free to move about the city the same as everyone else. To the extent he suspects them of doing something detrimental to the security of the city or Hold the segregation policy does nothing to address it. If he enforces the segregation policy rather than rescinding it with a simple edict that speaks for the fact that he believes in the policy which speaks to his racial prejudice.
Perhaps, this segregation is purely for the Dunmer's own comfort and or protection. We've seen examples of Nord harassment in game that may support this theory.
Again residential segregation does absolutely nothing to protect the Dunmer from such actions. Suvaris is harrassed outside the Gray Quarter which underscores this rather obvious fact.
The Altmer shop vendor, when questioned even eludes to the fact that the Dunmer's stubborn attitude may very well be what's holding them back in Windhelm.
Calling something a fact doesn't magically make it so, particularly when it's clearly mere opinion. That aside, it's completely irrelevant to the segregation of the Dunmer. That's by law and only one person can make that otherwise.
She seems to be thriving, so for a man who supposedly detests any Elf alive, it raises an interesting question. Why allow an Altmer, no less, a home and business and deny the same to a Dunmer out of racial reasoning? It just doesn't add up to me personally.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have no clue how Niranye makes her living notwithstanding that it's implied in dialogues between her and other NPC's even if you never did the Thieves Guild quest line. A substantial portion of her trade is illegal. She deals in stolen and smuggled goods and contraband in general, and, if you do the Thieves Guild quest line, for the Thieves Guild in particular.

In addition Dunmer aren't fungible with the Altmers in examining their situation in Windhelm. That's a straw man. Ulfric's segregation policy is limited to the Dunmer, not all Mer. Equating the two races, observing that he doesn't segeregate the Altmer, and then concluding that it speaks to anything regarding his prejudices against the Dunmer is a logical fallacy.

Last, as further proof that Niranye's opinion is merely just that, there are in fact successful Dunmer in Windhelm. Belyn Halaalu is a farm owner who is successful enough to employ a Nord farmhand. Notwithstanding his success, he is consigned to live in the Gray Quarter.
The way I see it if Ulfric hates the Dunmer that much, why has he not kicked them out?
There seems to be this misguided notion among players that in order to harbor racist attitudes and enforce racist practices, one has to be rabidly racist and go to great extremes. This probably goes to the heart of the matter as to why some players who like or otherwise defend Ulfric go into denial about his racist policy regarding the Dunmer notwithstanding what the game content irrefutably presents to the player. His prejudices simply aren't that inflamed and the mildness of the policy reflects that. If it were otherwise he would have far more extreme restrictions imposed on the Dunmer and might not even have to kick them
out as they would find such conditions rapidly intolerable and leave on their own. The fact that they don't only reinforces the notion that the impact of the policy, while insulting and racially prejudiced, is relatively tolerable for them which is why they continue to reside in Windhelm. It also speaks to the fact that Ulfric isn't some kind of despicable ogre for enforcing segregation in Windhelm. It speaks badly of his character but in a manner that is as mild as the policy
itself. There are certainly things in the game one can discover that reflect exponentially more badly on his character than the Dunmer policy in Windhelm.
...he feeds and shelters them...
He doesn't feed and shelter them. The Dunmer's pay for their own upkeep the same as any other resident of Windhelm.
Perhaps as refugees, they should be a little more gracious, after all, it's a long walk back to Morrowind and nobody will beg them to stay.
Their status as refugees is irrelevant. They've been living in Windhelm for over a hundred years. They're not under any obligation to be any more gracious than any other resident and they contribute to the society as citizens the same as any other.

Scourge of the Gray Quarter simply doesn't comport with the reality of Windhelm as presented by the game content. The Dunmer in Windhelm do earn their livelihoods the same as any other citizen. Torbjorn Shatter-Shield certainly doesn't have any parental affection for his Argonian employees. The fact that much of what's claimed in the book is refuted by what one observes in Windhelm should tell you everything you need to know about it's reliability as an objective source of information.
Always interesting reading you're opinion and interpretation :)
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
"I do pledge my life and my service to the ruling bodies of the Aldmeri Dominion, the Thalmor, even unto my fellow Justiciar's.
I will protect Alinor and the lineage of the Aldmer, casting away any false beliefs and those who enforce them.
All Hail the Aldmeri Dominion, All Hail the Thalmor!!!"

Say what you will, however the Empire's days are numbered. Just how many Provinces have you guys lost thus far?

The Stormcloak Nords will surely fall standing alone, although I do not blame them for wanting to be a free state, just as the Summerset Isles have become.

I would think if the Imperials *truly* cared enough about Skyrim, they would let them go. Rather than beat them into submission, burning their farms and destroying their lives. The other Provinces realized who they were dealing with long ago. Such a 'sad' state of affairs for man, however there is hope...

Behold the future! Behold the Thalmor!


tx12001 - Thank You fellow Justiciar for the original quote. I took a little creative license and further improved upon it. Hope you don't mind :)


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Lunaruse

The Milkdrinking Elf
"I do pledge my life and my service to the ruling bodies of the Aldmeri Dominion, the Thalmor.
I will protect Alinor and the lineage of the Aldmer, casting away any false beliefs and those who enforce them.
All Hail the Aldmeri Dominion, All Hail the Thalmor!!!"


Say what you will, however the Empire's days are numbered. Just how many Provinces have you guys lost thus far?

The Stormcloak Nords will surely fall standing alone, although I do not blame them for wanting to be a free state, just as the Summerset Isles have become.

I would think if the Imperials *truly* cared enough about Skyrim, they would let them go. Rather than beat them into submission, burning their farms and destroying their lives. The other Provinces realized who they were dealing with long ago. Such a 'sad' state of affairs for man, however there is hope...

Behold the future! Behold the Thalmor!


Btw - Thank You tx12001 for the original quote. I took a little creative license and further improved upon it.

I feel like Vizzini from the Princess Bride during the battle of wits. . .
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
Princess Bride sounds familiar... but can't place it...
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
Foolish Breton. Can't you see? Elven supremacy is the *only* truth. :/


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Lunaruse

The Milkdrinking Elf
That awkward moment when you are confused for a Breton when your title clearly states that you are, in fact, a milk-drinking elf. By the Nine and the Neetxis. Milk is good.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
Ah but I was not referring to you.


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Lunaruse

The Milkdrinking Elf

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