Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[feliciano182]

He remains but his soldiers leave.

Well, isn't that indicative that Whiterun has finally sided with The Empire ?

I mean, obviously you don't need to leave soldiers in the hold because Whiterun already has it's own independent security force.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Well, isn't that indicative that Whiterun has finally sided with The Empire ?

Not about siding with them or not. The Empire allows neutrality else they would of attacked Whiterun for not allowing the Legionnaires there. They seek to stop Ulfric's army though which is planning to attack Whiterun. The Legions job is to protect them all, neutral and those who support them.

"The Legion has garrisons throughout all the provinces of the Empire. Our mission is to serve the Emperor, uphold the Law, and protect the citizenry."

 

[feliciano182]

Not about siding with them or not. The Empire allows neutrality else they would of attacked Whiterun for not allowing the Legionnaires there. They seek to stop Ulfric's army though which is planning to attack Whiterun. The Legions job is to protect them all, neutral and those who support them.

"The Legion has garrisons throughout all the provinces of the Empire. Our mission is to serve the Emperor, uphold the Law, and protect the citizenry."

I understand perfectly, even from a pragmatical viewpoint, stopping Ulfric from taking Whiterun is also a victory even if they don't have the support of Balgruuf and his court.

However, I don't think Quentin Cipius is there for no reason, after Battle For Whiterun, Balgruuf HAS sided deffinitively with The Empire, the reason why there's no soldiers guarding Whiterun is because the city already has it's own guards, so there's no reason to post legion soldiers there anyways.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I understand perfectly, even from a pragmatical viewpoint, stopping Ulfric from taking Whiterun is also a victory even if they don't have the support of Balgruuf and his court.

However, I don't think Quentin Cipius is there for no reason, after Battle For Whiterun, Balgruuf HAS sided deffinitively with The Empire, the reason why there's no soldiers guarding Whiterun is because the city already has it's own guards, so there's no reason to post legion soldiers there anyways.

They're kind of there but not there, they're down the road in a fort. I believe one of the reasons they remain and he remains is to make sure Ulfric doesn't attack again. Cipius could remain for several reasons, to oversee repairs which the Empire will pay for no doubt since it was involved in an attack they took part in. He could also remain because Cipius is skilled in defensive preparations which even Balgruuf made note of or even been assigned to Whiterun for sometime it isn't a new thing for Counts to have a Legion Officer as apart of their city, so no doubt it wouldn't be a new thing for even Jarls.

Balgruuf: "No. Of course not. Just - don't let me down Cipius. We'll need to set up water brigades to combat the flames."
Quentin: "Already taken care of."
Balgruuf: "You Imperials are efficient, I'll give you that.

Each Legate appears to have been assigned a Hold to protect and guard during the war, no doubt after the war and when everything settles down they'll return to their normal duty.

While in peacetime the Legion serves primarily as a garrison force, manning forts, patrolling roads, and providing guardsmen for towns, cities, counties, and nobles, in wartime the Legion's responsibilities and powers are greatly increased. Which is noticed when you see them in forts and along the roads. Providing guardsmen for towns is seen in Oblivion when a Captain is sent to a city and also in Skyrim when removing Stormcloak controlled holds, which the Legion will guard until everything settles down. The nobles is also seen when you notice Nobles with an Imperial escort.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Forgive me for not quite following the course of the argument. I see no fault in Balgruuf choosing allegiance with the Empire. During the peace council, he is clearly on the Imperial side, even if he has not yet made his choice 'official' by allowing Imperial garrison of troops. Even so, there is no dishonor or weakness in choosing to side with the force that promises to assist him in protecting his own citizens.

Likewise, I see no problem with Ulfric attacking Whiterun. If it has strategic value, he is not wrong to take it when Balgruuf makes it clear that he will refuse to side with him. This is war, is it not? We do call it a civil war, not a civil disagreement. I do not quite understand how fighting, how violence, how choosing sides, how any of these things is wrong in a war. Perhaps someone can explain.

Ulfric plans to take it even before Balgruuf makes it clear he will refuse, before the peace talks and before choosing any side in the civil war. There is no problem with Balgruuf he is one of the best Jarls in Skyrim and it is sad he is being faulted for siding with the Empire when Ulfric plans to take his city. He simply cares for his people.

This is before any side has been taken, no peace talks have been made, the dragon issue hasn't been addressed.

Legion

Rikke: "I'm telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun."
Tullius: "He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men."
Rikke: "That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."
Tullius: "It's not a cause. It's a rebellion."
Rikke: "Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun."
Tullius: "Jarl Balgruuf..."
Rikke: "Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim."
Tullius: "Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city."
Rikke: "General."
Tullius: "You people and your damn Jarls."
Rikke: "Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for."
Tullius: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea."
Rikke: "Yes, sir."

Stormcloaks

Galmar: "Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer."
Ulfric: "He's a true Nord. He'll come around."
Galmar: "Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun."
Ulfric: "And what would you have me do?"
Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."
Galmar: "How long are you going to wait?"
Ulfric: "You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message."
Galmar: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet."
Ulfric: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?"
Galmar: "So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?"
Ulfric: "Soon."
Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."
Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."

 

[Raijin]

Many Jarls are displeased with Ulfric. Even a Stormcloak supporting Jarl, who says that while she supports the Stormcloaks, she has little faith in Ulfric himself.

Galmar: "The Jarls are upset. They don't all support you."
Ulfric: "Damn the Jarls."

Not really...

Rikke: "I'm telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun."
Tullius: "He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men."
Rikke: "That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."
Tullius: "It's not a cause. It's a rebellion."
Rikke: "Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun."
Tullius: "Jarl Balgruuf..."
Rikke: "Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim."
Tullius: "Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city."
Rikke: "General."
Tullius: "You people and your damn Jarls."
Rikke: "Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for."
Tullius: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea."
Rikke: "Yes, sir."
Tullius: "You Nords and your bloody sense of honor."
Rikke: "Sir."

The Stormcloak sympathizing Jarls such as Laila Law-Giver of Riften and Dengeir of Stuhn of Falkreath (replacement Jarl) doesn't have nice words to say to Ulfric, but they support him because they can reason with him. They probably do not totally support with what Ulfric is doing, but firmly believe that it is Nords that should rule Skyrim, not a weaken down Empire.

Oh and as an extra bonus I just LOVED the way Tullius was OK with Ulfric raiding his city when he said: "Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city. but then quickly came back with this: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him." Sounds like Tullius is a flip flopper if you ask me.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ulfric also says he would prefer to get Whiterun's support without bloodshed. That seems wise. Surely you are not suggesting that even if Jarl Balgruuf had come to Jarl Ulfric and offered his support that the latter would have attacked his city anyway?

It is hard to predict Ulfric to be honest. He seems, well just a bit two faced about things. You see him giving great moving speeches and what appears like truth, he truly cares for his people and he is the great leader, that many get pulled into his web, but just as any web he shows he can be the spider.

This is one of the main instances where I felt that.

Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."


Also for the peace talks, I have to convince Tullius to go first before him. I would of thought it'd be the other way around, I mean Tullius isn't even a nord so he wouldn't hold the Greybeards to high regard as the Nords. Tullius considers them old hermits I believe, but I have to get Tullius to go before Ulfric will even consider it.

Don't forget he doesn't really care about the Jarls

Galmar: "The Jarls are upset. They don't all support you."
Ulfric: "Damn the Jarls."

Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies." This one is kind of saying, the Jarls will need his army that when he puts them on a throne they are not rulers, they will need the support of his army to rule.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Not really...

Rikke: "I'm telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun."
Tullius: "He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men."
Rikke: "That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."
Tullius: "It's not a cause. It's a rebellion."
Rikke: "Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun."
Tullius: "Jarl Balgruuf..."
Rikke: "Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim."
Tullius: "Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city."
Rikke: "General."
Tullius: "You people and your damn Jarls."
Rikke: "Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for."
Tullius: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea."
Rikke: "Yes, sir."
Tullius: "You Nords and your bloody sense of honor."
Rikke: "Sir."

The Stormcloak sympathizing Jarls such as Laila Law-Giver of Riften and Dengeir of Stuhn of Falkreath (replacement Jarl) doesn't have nice words to say to Ulfric, but they support him because they can reason with him. They probably do not totally support with what Ulfric is doing, but firmly believe that it is Nords that should rule Skyrim, not a weaken down Empire.

Oh and as an extra bonus I just LOVED the way Tullius was OK with Ulfric raiding his city when he said: "Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city. but then quickly came back with this: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him." Sounds like Tullius is a flip flopper if you ask me.

Yes really. The fact it was said between him and Galmar confirm it, if it was said on the side of the Empire I may doubt it.

Balgruuf won't allow the Legion to do their duty there, "Our mission is to serve the Emperor, uphold the Law, and protect the citizenry."

"Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city." Bulgruuf is refusing the legions aid, as Rikke even says "You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for"

 

[DrunkenMage]

(( I do believe that in some games, Tullius is loathe to attend unless Ulfric has already agreed; however, UESP wiki says you can speak to the leaders in any order. In my most recent game, Ulfric was easy to persuade. I did not need to talk to Tullius first. ))

We should not condemn a man for a single line spoken in a moment of frustration. If we must damn Ulfric for his outburst, "Damn the Jarls!" we must also damn Tullius for his outburst, "You and your damned Jarls."

I don't condemn him for Damn the Jarls, the Jarls would be a pain in the ass on how Skyrim is governed since each hold is independent. I dislike his misuse of the moot as though he is pretending to value tradition. Though Tullius is not a nord and does not understand nord ways, the damned Jarls is something you would expect from Tullius and infact many use it against Tullius about his disregard for Nordic traditions when Ulfric does also and he is a Nord.

 

[DrunkenMage]

That is because people on both sides are grabbing for straws. Neither outburst convinces me of anything other than that both these leaders experience frustration and are willing to swear. I do not count this as behavior worth damning, else I would find it hard to advocate any leader old enough to cross the road without holding his mother's hand.

It is mainly the High King part that gets me, I understand outbursts of frustration in the heat of the moment, but how Ulfric spoke to Galmar after his speech showed me it was nothing more than a show.

 

[DrunkenMage]

That is because people on both sides are grabbing for straws. Neither outburst convinces me of anything other than that both these leaders experience frustration and are willing to swear. I do not count this as behavior worth damning, else I would find it hard to advocate any leader old enough to cross the road without holding his mother's hand.

This is also interesting of note.

Ulfric: "Is there any news from High Rock?"
Galmar: "Not a peep. Those prissy Bretons can't be made to lift a finger to help their neighbors."
Ulfric: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire."
Galmar: "Those milk drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us."
Ulfric: "Regardless. It appears Skyrim must stand alone. Again."

 

[DrunkenMage]

Of course Jarl Ulfric's manner get to you. You dislike him. This is your feeling about him and you are of course right to feel it. But others who do not feel it are also right. It is never wise to try to argue with a man's feelings as your sails will fall and your hull will shatter long before your foe changes what is in his heart.

The Jarl of Windhelm can give speeches and he knows it. So he tells you he knows this. You dislike him, so you dislike that he gives good speeches.

General Tullius does not give good speeches and resents having to do it. So he tells you this. You like him, so you admire him for this.

The opposite feelings, though, could also be perfectly valid. I do not believe this is something that can be fruitfully argued over.

I thought his speeches were from the heart so to speak. It makes me wonder if his why I fight speech was something for those within the Palace of the Kings in earshot, because he raised his voice so it would go across the hall.

 

[Raijin]

They don't buy from her because of her race. They think she'll poison them, so she talks about closing down and moving back to Cyrodiil.

The Blacksmith situation:
That's ridiculous. Whiterun already has a blacksmith, the best blacksmith in all of Skyrim that is, and this woman shows up and thinks she can compete with him. WRONG! It has nothing to do with her race whatsoever.

If you were at Whiterun and needed some armor... who do you go to to buy quality armor? From a novice woman or go to the best blacksmith in all of Skyrim?

Now for Arcadia The Stormcloaks do not trust her not because of her race, but because of what she does. Carlotta Valentia is doing just fine, and shes an Imperial.

 

[DrunkenMage]

A man may raise his voice because he feels a sudden burst of passion. I have been known to do this myself, though, in my case, it is usually when I am alone with a woman... or have lost gold at a game of chance.

Not everything must be for show just because you feel that it is.

Ulfric often shouts to an empty hall.

You misunderstand I'm not saying that the why I fight is for show. I did once like Ulfric and admired him with almost zealous loyalty, I supported the Stormcloaks for quite sometime. I do have both sides of the coin you know, I'm not this "I've always supported the Empire. I only support the Empire. Stormcloak views mean nothing" I was a Stormcloak supporter. It wasn't until after the Civil war, that when he gave his speech and then turned to Galmar about it that I felt a little "Oh it was a mere ploy to appear more great" Then when I spoke to the people of Whiterun that I started to see what I had done.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Blacksmith situation:
That's ridiculous. Whiterun already has a blacksmith, the best blacksmith in all of Skyrim that is, and this woman shows up and thinks she can compete with him. WRONG! It has nothing to do with her race whatsoever.

If you were at Whiterun and needed some armor... who do you go to to buy quality armor? From a novice woman or go to the best blacksmith in all of Skyrim?

Now for Arcadia The Stormcloaks do not trust her not because of her race, but because of what she does. Carlotta Valentia is doing just fine, and shes an Imperial.

She doesn't think she can, "I don't claim to be the best blacksmith in Whiterun. Eorlund Gray-Mane's got that honor. Man's steel is legendary. All I ask is a fair chance."

"Well, not a great deal, no. But I do less business than I used to. The Stormcloaks don't like buying from anyone that isn't a Nord. If I wasn't married to Ulfberth, I'd be out of business."

Carlotta hates it even more now, she isn't doing just fine. Believe she says "At least Balgruuf's men bathed regularly" or something.

What about the owner of the Inn? Who is having problems because the Stormcloaks get drunk and break her things. At least Whiterun guards could maintain themselves professionally and do their job even being Nords who love mead.

 

[DrunkenMage]

To me these statements carry about as much weight as Violeta Giordano complaining about the Corner Club keeping her awake at night.

Come, come. The Stormcloaks do not bathe, says a Colovian. Some drunk Nords break things in a tavern. This is a good reason to support the Empire?

Mage. Do not shame me, please.

No a good reason to support the Empire would be the hatred of other races Stormcloaks have.

Argonians? Hated and under paid because they aren't Nords.
Dark Elves? Racial segregation only tolerated because they were allowed into the city by Ulfric's forefathers, being an elf they're disliked the Silver-Blood who becomes Jarl sees no different between the elves Dunmer are no better than Thalmor as on my dark elf he blamed my kind for the war.
Bosmer? Disliked because of being an elf.
Altmer? Don't even need to talk about that one.
Orcs? Orc strongholds would probably be a target for future stormcloak attacks because the Strongholds who seem to have been there before the Nords are an affront to their people.
Bretons? Galmar: "Those milk drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us."
Imperials? Well they certainly hate Imperials.
Redguards? Oh I'm sure they hate Redguards too, they did invade them during the Third era.

Not to mention the dislike of mages, magic users, the college of winterhold, they employ no battle mages. I'm sorry but they plan to 'attack' an army made up of Magic users? Be a slaughter.

 

[Raijin]

You misunderstand I'm not saying that the why I fight is for show. I did once like Ulfric and admired him with almost zealous loyalty, I supported the Stormcloaks for quite sometime. I do have both sides of the coin you know, I'm not this "I've always supported the Empire. I only support the Empire. Stormcloak views mean nothing" I was a Stormcloak supporter. It wasn't until after the Civil war, that when he gave his speech and then turned to Galmar about it that I felt a little "Oh it was a mere ploy to appear more great" Then when I spoke to the people of Whiterun that I started to see what I had done.

So you started hating the Stormcloaks because of that speech? What about Tullius speech?

Tullius: "The rebellion is over. Ulfric Stormcloak is dead. His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn a spike on the walls of the Imperial City. Let this day be a final warning to all who would still call themselves Stormcloaks. We are turning the city over to Brunwulf Free-Winter, an honorable and faithful man. Many of you will be staying in Windhelm to aid the Jarl in restoring order and stamping out any embers of rebellion that may still smolder here. In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation to the widows of your fallen comrades. I am proud of all of you. All hail the Emperor. All hail his Legionnaires! I hate giving speeches."

He explains how hes going to have his men decapitate the recently deceased Ulfric Stormcloak body, and have his head sent to Cyrodiil where it would be plastered on the walls of the Imperial city. What kind of fluffing disgusting government is the Empire for actually doing something like that? At least Ulfric has the decency to allow Both Tullius and Rikke to have their final resting place in Solitude. Why didn't Tullius do the same? Why does he feel that he has the right to desecrate a body for their own sick pleasures?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Racial hatred is not unique to Stormcloaks. It is an intractable part of life in Tamriel. It existed in Windhelm long before Ulfric was ever born, and existed in the rest of Skyrim before that. The Empire does not heal this. It exists whether Skyrim is a part of the Empire or not.

It is more intense to the Stormcloaks and seems to be a common between them. Xenophobic they have become.

 

[DrunkenMage]

So you started hating the Stormcloaks because of that speech? What about Tullius speech?

Tullius: "The rebellion is over. Ulfric Stormcloak is dead. His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn a spike on the walls of the Imperial City. Let this day be a final warning to all who would still call themselves Stormcloaks. We are turning the city over to Brunwulf Free-Winter, an honorable and faithful man. Many of you will be staying in Windhelm to aid the Jarl in restoring order and stamping out any embers of rebellion that may still smolder here. In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation to the widows of your fallen comrades. I am proud of all of you. All hail the Emperor. All hail his Legionnaires! I hate giving speeches."

He explains how hes going to have his men decapitate the recently deceased Ulfric Stormcloak body, and have his head sent to Cyrodiil where it would be plastered on the walls of the Imperial city. What kind of fluffing disgusting government is the Empire for actually doing something like that? At least Ulfric has the decency to allow Both Tullius and Rikke to have their final resting place in Solitude. Why didn't Tullius do the same? Why does he feel that he has the right to desecrate a body for their own sick pleasures?

To serve as a message to other Provinces. It has been done many times in our own history.

 

[Raijin]

She doesn't think she can, "I don't claim to be the best blacksmith in Whiterun. Eorlund Gray-Mane's got that honor. Man's steel is legendary. All I ask is a fair chance."

"Well, not a great deal, no. But I do less business than I used to. The Stormcloaks don't like buying from anyone that isn't a Nord. If I wasn't married to Ulfberth, I'd be out of business."

Carlotta hates it even more now, she isn't doing just fine. Believe she says "At least Balgruuf's men bathed regularly" or something.

What about the owner of the Inn? Who is having problems because the Stormcloaks get drunk and break her things. At least Whiterun guards could maintain themselves professionally and do their job even being Nords who love mead.

If she wanted a chance to prove herself why didn't she go to another hold like Morthal where theirs no available blacksmith around? To go straight to Whiterun (when theirs already a blacksmith there) and start your own blacksmithing company is just asking for it. It's like a mom and pop opening up their small business store right across the street from a Walmart.

What do you mean Carlotta isn't doing good? She still has men chasing her tail. She has men fighting each other to get her. She only complains that the Stormcloaks do not groom themselves properly, and that their breathe smells.

If the owner at the banner mere takes Septims from the guards to buy booze then she deserves to have her things broken.