Elisif Appreciation Thread

[Raijin]

How do you know they were?

We don't truly know what happen in Markarth. That's why I don't worship over the Bear of Markarth book like some Imperial supporters do on this forum We don't truly know what happen there, and theirs no way to find it either by talking to the NPC's in Markarth to hear their side of the story.

 

[DrunkenMage]

We don't truly know what happen in Markarth. That's why I don't worship over the Bear of Markarth book like some Imperial supporters do on this forum We don't truly know what happen there, and theirs no way to find it either by talking to the NPC's in Markarth to hear their side of the story.

Hard to get the story when most are dead. Happened around 25+ years ago. The only reason you discredit that book is because it puts Ulfric in bad light, not to mention you didn't like it because of the authors race. Remember we've been over this book before, I know your standing argument over that book.

It isn't about being Imperial supporting, that book is about an incident before the rebellion, once you get that understanding that it isn't mere war time propaganda, but it is about an incident probably written when Ulfric was in prison. Has not one thing to do about being an Imperial supporter, though Imperial supporter doesn't mean anything, a race doesn't matter. Empire supporting, you mean.

Back on topic however,

Are you serious? Experience is what makes you a better leader. Elisif is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to young to have this kind of responsibility under her shoulders. You can't just go from A to Z at such short amount of time. She recently became the Jarl... now shes going to be the Queen? That's an intensive moment right there. Skyrim needs experience, not a novice. Skyrim needs someone with high intelligence to rule. Unfortunately Elisif doesn't quite have this trait yet to be High Queen. Brina Merilis is much suitable for High queen than Elisif


Skyrim needs a leader very much like High King Foltest in the wicher 2

I stand by my question, how does battlefield experience make you a leader? How does killing make a leader? In what world of your mind do you believe a good fighter is the best leader? Skyrim needs someone experienced? How do you know what they need, perhaps they do need a novice someone who doesn't kill first ask questions later, she is certainly more intelligent than Ulfric, should see him at Season Unending, he lets anger cloud his judgement about Elenwen. Not the best at negotiations. She doesn't lose her temper like poor Ulfric, she is good at maintaining composure, she is a perfect Queen, not ruled by emotions, not allowing herself to show that emotion around others. She keeps herself together, though this could be shock due to the death of her husband but I don't think so, she only got emotional when talking about it.

Though hopefully you will answer my question because I am indeed serious, how does experience in killing make you a leader? Does having blood on your hands make you more right?

 

[Raijin]

Hard to get the story when most are dead. Happened around 25+ years ago. The only reason you discredit that book is because it puts Ulfric in bad light, not to mention you didn't like it because of the authors race. Remember we've been over this book before, I know your standing argument over that book.

It isn't about being Imperial supporting, that book is about an incident before the rebellion, once you get that understanding that it isn't mere war time propaganda, but it is about an incident probably written when Ulfric was in prison. Has not one thing to do about being an Imperial supporter, though Imperial supporter doesn't mean anything, a race doesn't matter. Empire supporting, you mean.

I'm sure theirs family members that I can go speak with regarding to the situation. I find it hard to believe that Ulfric and his men/women slaughtered every single citizen in Markarth without a good enough reason to do it. I need more evidence (none pro Stormcloak/Empire) that can back up the Imperial Scholar's story regarding to what truly happen in Markarth. Arrianus Arius (The author of the book) essentially called Ulfric a war criminal yet did not pin point Igmund, an Imperial supporting Jarl, as the main culprit who started up this war against the Forsworn.... yet Ulfric is the war criminal, and Igmund walks away without facing the consequences from the Empire for being the one that caused this to happen. Ulfric did not wake up one morning and told his militia that they will invade Markarth. He was hired with payment of free worship if he can retake back the reach. Ulfric accepted the job and he was successful.

Back on topic however,


I stand by my question, how does battlefield experience make you a leader? How does killing make a leader? In what world of your mind do you believe a good fighter is the best leader? Skyrim needs someone experienced? How do you know what they need, perhaps they do need a novice someone who doesn't kill first ask questions later, she is certainly more intelligent than Ulfric, should see him at Season Unending, he lets anger cloud his judgement about Elenwen. Not the best at negotiations. She doesn't lose her temper like poor Ulfric, she is good at maintaining composure, she is a perfect Queen, not ruled by emotions, not allowing herself to show that emotion around others. She keeps herself together, though this could be shock due to the death of her husband but I don't think so, she only got emotional when talking about it.

Though hopefully you will answer my question because I am indeed serious, how does experience in killing make you a leader? Does having blood on your hands make you more right?

I'm going to make this quick and simple

How does battlefield experience make you a leader? Brina Merilis from Dawnstar is a prime example of an experienced leader who happens to have battlefield experience.. She is a retired legion legate who fought in the Great war (battlefield experience) and she becomes the Jarl of Dawnstar if the Imperials takes over the hold, or and if wins the civil war.
How does killing make a leader? When I ever said that killing people would make them a better leader? Don't you think Brina Merilis is the perfect Jarl in Skyrim? I'm sure she had her air share at killing, and she turned out perfect.
In what world of your mind do you believe a good fighter is the best leader? When I saw Jarl Brina Merilis leadership when I gave the Imperials Dawnstar during the Season Unending quest

Some of her golden tongues

Her dialogue if you ask her about the safety of Dawnstar
"No. We're completely exposed. Bows and arrows are in short supply. Every building is made of thatch and wood. I've given standing orders to the guards to prepare water bucket runs to the harbor in case of a fire, but that's all we can do."

Her legion background as a Legate gives her the upper hand in being a good leader, since she has the experience of being one

Her talking to the disgruntled Breton court mage, who doesn't even want to be there in the first place.

Brina: "Madena, I was wondering if you could help me with something. Your magic would be invaluable."
Madena: "If this is about battle magic, forget it. I've told every Jarl I've served under that I won't...."
Brina: "Actually, I was just wondering if you could make sure people are tended to if they get hurt. I'm sure you wouldn't object to that."
Madena: "I, well, no of course not. I would be glad to help."

And one last thing that caught my eyes

Brina: "Just like old times, huh Horik? You and me fighting in a war over some forsaken scrap of land."
Horik: "Brings back memories. Do you have any orders for me, Legate?"
Brina: "Keep the guard alert. I want to make sure no townspeople get hurt if there's trouble."
Horik: "Yes, Legate. No one is getting through us."
Brina: "Shor's bones, I hope you're right."
Horik: "We should go over our strategy again in case the Stormcloaks attack."
Brina: "I don't think that's needed, Horik. It's the same strategy we used for every major defense during the Great War. It'll serve just as well now."
Horik: "Considering how the Great War ended, I think we need to be cautious about what we rely on."
Brina: "Maybe you're right. I guess the battles I won yesterday won't win today's wars."
Horik: "I'm sorry, Legate. I didn't want to imply anything about your ability to lead. You're a hero to the Empire, and I...."
Brina: "Oh, don't be such an old stick, Horik. I was joking. I can do that, you know. Redo the battle plans. I'll look over them later."
Horik: "Yes, Legate."

If their were more people like Briana and Horik in the Legion I would probably joined the imperials myself.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'm sure theirs family members that I can go speak with regarding to the situation. I find it hard to believe that Ulfric and his men/women slaughtered every single citizen in Markarth without a good enough reason to do it. I need more evidence (none pro Stormcloak/Empire) that can back up the Imperial Scholar's story regarding to what truly happen in Markarth. Arrianus Arius (The author of the book) essentially called Ulfric a war criminal yet did not pin point Igmund, an Imperial supporting Jarl, as the main culprit who started up this war against the Forsworn.... yet Ulfric is the war criminal, and Igmund walks away without facing the consequences from the Empire for being the one that caused this to happen. Ulfric did not wake up one morning and told his militia that they will invade Markarth. He was hired with payment of free worship if he can retake back the reach. Ulfric accepted the job and he was successful.



I'm going to make this quick and simple

How does battlefield experience make you a leader? Brina Merilis from Dawnstar is a prime example of an experienced leader who happens to have battlefield experience.. She is a retired legion legate who fought in the Great war (battlefield experience) and she becomes the Jarl of Dawnstar if the Imperials takes over the hold, or and if wins the civil war.
How does killing make a leader? When I ever said that killing people would make them a better leader? Don't you think Brina Merilis is the perfect Jarl in Skyrim? I'm sure she had her air share at killing, and she turned out perfect.
In what world of your mind do you believe a good fighter is the best leader? When I saw Jarl Brina Merilis leadership when I gave the Imperials Dawnstar during the Season Unending quest

Some of her golden tongues

Her dialogue if you ask her about the safety of Dawnstar
"No. We're completely exposed. Bows and arrows are in short supply. Every building is made of thatch and wood. I've given standing orders to the guards to prepare water bucket runs to the harbor in case of a fire, but that's all we can do."

Her legion background as a Legate gives her the upper hand in being a good leader, since she has the experience of being one

Her talking to the disgruntled Breton court mage, who doesn't even want to be there in the first place.

Brina: "Madena, I was wondering if you could help me with something. Your magic would be invaluable."
Madena: "If this is about battle magic, forget it. I've told every Jarl I've served under that I won't...."
Brina: "Actually, I was just wondering if you could make sure people are tended to if they get hurt. I'm sure you wouldn't object to that."
Madena: "I, well, no of course not. I would be glad to help."

And one last thing that caught my eyes

Brina: "Just like old times, huh Horik? You and me fighting in a war over some forsaken scrap of land."
Horik: "Brings back memories. Do you have any orders for me, Legate?"
Brina: "Keep the guard alert. I want to make sure no townspeople get hurt if there's trouble."
Horik: "Yes, Legate. No one is getting through us."
Brina: "Shor's bones, I hope you're right."
Horik: "We should go over our strategy again in case the Stormcloaks attack."
Brina: "I don't think that's needed, Horik. It's the same strategy we used for every major defense during the Great War. It'll serve just as well now."
Horik: "Considering how the Great War ended, I think we need to be cautious about what we rely on."
Brina: "Maybe you're right. I guess the battles I won yesterday won't win today's wars."
Horik: "I'm sorry, Legate. I didn't want to imply anything about your ability to lead. You're a hero to the Empire, and I...."
Brina: "Oh, don't be such an old stick, Horik. I was joking. I can do that, you know. Redo the battle plans. I'll look over them later."
Horik: "Yes, Legate."

If their were more people like Briana and Horik in the Legion I would probably joined the imperials myself.

I don't like Igmund, I find him to be an idiot.

Brina however I never really spent too much time with her, she does seem good, but so is every Legate, Quentin Cipius is a good legate also. The Legates are all well trained, Legion training is some of the best. Just not everyone is suited for the battlefield, much like the ex Soldier in the Ratway I think it is called. He's so traumatized from the horror of battle that he's lost his mind. Not every man and woman is suited for war, I feel very sorry for the man in the Ratway.

"No, you can't be here! You're all dead! I already killed you over and over!"

"They were golden, even when they were dead. But their blood was red. I knew it would be."

"I had a medal. It had someone's face on it. I threw it away, after. It didn't help."

"It's hopeless. He told me. He's right, you know."

"He explained it all to me. Before, when I still understood. I don't remember, but I still know."

"You don't think there's any hope, do you? I don't. He's right."

"I finally understand what it all means. What its all for. The killing. And the dying."

"Their fires lit up the night. All across Lake Rumare, like stars come to earth. It was beautiful, really."

"He'll tell you, just ask. You don't even need to ask. He'll tell you anyway."

 

[KillallKompetition]

I have a general distaste for all the Jarls, for one reason or another. Suffice to say that I would decapitate her, Balgruuf and Ulfric if it were possible.

 

[Raijin]

If you want to start talking about the Season Unending then lets start talking about it

When you approach Ulfric prior their was NO talk of the Thalmor being involved in the temporary peace treaty against the Imperials. For General Tullius to bring Elenwen was disrespectful, especially under the circumstance. It only proves one thing... that the Aldmeri Dominion co owns the Empire, since the General himself did say "Shes part of the Imperial delegation. You can't dictate who I bring to this council." really? So the Thalmor is part of the Imperial delegation now? More of the reasons why Skyrim needs to dissociate from the Empire since the Thalmor has so much power that the Empire had granted them to have. Not good for Skyrims future.

The Thalmor bitch starts shouting her nonsense "I have every right to be at this negotiation. I need to ensure that nothing is agreed to here that violates the terms of the White-Gold Concordat"

I always wonder what exactly did the Emperor agreed in these terms. I'm sure it wasn't only to ban the worship of Talos, the disbandment of the blades, and so on.

If the Dragonborn agreed with Ulfric... that the Thalmor has no business being there the Thalmor bitch gets all pissy: "Very well, Ulfric. Enjoy your petty victory. The Thalmor will treat with whatever government rules Skyrim. We would not think of interfering in your civil war.

Galmar begins his ownage (Gotta love it): Ha! Skyrim will never bow to the Thalmor! (As the Thalmor bitch leaves)
Galmar: Unlike your Imperial friends here.

Now you want to start spilling out how Ulfric showed his anger? What about how LEGATE RIKKE goes into a rapid rampage? After Galmar owned them? Legate Rikke: You're lucky I respect the Greybeard's counsel, Galmar! She removes herself from her chair and faces Ulfric and Galmar.

You want to brag about how Ulfric acted foolish while Elisif maintained composure... Elisif doesn't have the bundle load of responsibilities that Ulfric has. Ulfric mantains both his hold, and his Stormcloak army. Falk firebeard, Erikur and General Tullius runs Solitude, not her. Shes there to look pretty, not to rule. All of the responsibilities that requires to rule Solitude goes to Falk Firebeard.

 

[Raijin]

I don't like Igmund, I find him to be an idiot.

Brina however I never really spent too much time with her, she does seem good, but so is every Legate, Quentin Cipius is a good legate also. The Legates are all well trained, Legion training is some of the best. Just not everyone is suited for the battlefield, much like the ex Soldier in the Ratway I think it is called. He's so traumatized from the horror of battle that he's lost his mind. Not every man and woman is suited for war, I feel very sorry for the man in the Ratway.

"No, you can't be here! You're all dead! I already killed you over and over!"

"They were golden, even when they were dead. But their blood was red. I knew it would be."

"I had a medal. It had someone's face on it. I threw it away, after. It didn't help."

"It's hopeless. He told me. He's right, you know."

"He explained it all to me. Before, when I still understood. I don't remember, but I still know."

"You don't think there's any hope, do you? I don't. He's right."

"I finally understand what it all means. What its all for. The killing. And the dying."

"Their fires lit up the night. All across Lake Rumare, like stars come to earth. It was beautiful, really."

"He'll tell you, just ask. You don't even need to ask. He'll tell you anyway."

Go spend some quality time with Brina, and you would soon agree with me that shes more suitable for High Queen rather than the inexperienced Jarl from Solitude.

Brina is the only Legate in Skyrim that I truly respect. Shes the perfect Jarl and can be the perfect High Queen.

 

[The Laoch]

If you want to start talking about the Season Unending then lets start talking about it

When you approach Ulfric prior their was NO talk of the Thalmor being involved in the temporary peace treaty against the Imperials. For General Tullius to bring Elenwen was disrespectful, especially under the circumstance. It only proves one thing... that the Aldmeri Dominion co owns the Empire, since the General himself did say "Shes part of the Imperial delegation. You can't dictate who I bring to this council." really? So the Thalmor is part of the Imperial delegation now? More of the reasons why Skyrim needs to dissociate from the Empire since the Thalmor has so much power that the Empire had granted them to have. Not good for Skyrims future.

The Thalmor bitch starts shouting her nonsense "I have every right to be at this negotiation. I need to ensure that nothing is agreed to here that violates the terms of the White-Gold Concordat"

I always wonder what exactly did the Emperor agreed in these terms. I'm sure it wasn't only to ban the worship of Talos, the disbandment of the blades, and so on.

If the Dragonborn agreed with Ulfric... that the Thalmor has no business being there the Thalmor bitch gets all pissy: "Very well, Ulfric. Enjoy your petty victory. The Thalmor will treat with whatever government rules Skyrim. We would not think of interfering in your civil war.

Galmar begins his ownage (Gotta love it): Ha! Skyrim will never bow to the Thalmor! (As the Thalmor bitch leaves)
Galmar: Unlike your Imperial friends here.

Now you want to start spilling out how Ulfric showed his anger? What about how LEGATE RIKKE goes into a rapid rampage? After Galmar owned them? Legate Rikke: You're lucky I respect the Greybeard's counsel, Galmar! She removes herself from her chair and faces Ulfric and Galmar.

You want to brag about how Ulfric acted foolish while Elisif maintained composure... Elisif doesn't have the bundle load of responsibilities that Ulfric has. Ulfric mantains both his hold, and his Stormcloak army. Falk firebeard, Erikur and General Tullius runs Solitude, not her. Shes there to look pretty, not to rule. All of the responsibilities that requires to rule Solitude goes to Falk Firebeard.

I always wanted to know how come Elenwen doesn't kill the two blades that are in the same room as her?

 

[DrunkenMage]

If you want to start talking about the Season Unending then lets start talking about it

When you approach Ulfric prior their was NO talk of the Thalmor being involved in the temporary peace treaty against the Imperials. For General Tullius to bring Elenwen was disrespectful, especially under the circumstance. It only proves one thing... that the Aldmeri Dominion co owns the Empire, since the General himself did say "Shes part of the Imperial delegation. You can't dictate who I bring to this council." really? So the Thalmor is part of the Imperial delegation now? More of the reasons why Skyrim needs to dissociate from the Empire since the Thalmor has so much power that the Empire had granted them to have. Not good for Skyrims future.

The Thalmor bitch starts shouting her nonsense "I have every right to be at this negotiation. I need to ensure that nothing is agreed to here that violates the terms of the White-Gold Concordat"

I always wonder what exactly did the Emperor agreed in these terms. I'm sure it wasn't only to ban the worship of Talos, the disbandment of the blades, and so on.

If the Dragonborn agreed with Ulfric... that the Thalmor has no business being there the Thalmor bitch gets all pissy: "Very well, Ulfric. Enjoy your petty victory. The Thalmor will treat with whatever government rules Skyrim. We would not think of interfering in your civil war.

Galmar begins his ownage (Gotta love it): Ha! Skyrim will never bow to the Thalmor! (As the Thalmor bitch leaves)
Galmar: Unlike your Imperial friends here.

Now you want to start spilling out how Ulfric showed his anger? What about how LEGATE RIKKE goes into a rapid rampage? After Galmar owned them? Legate Rikke: You're lucky I respect the Greybeard's counsel, Galmar! She removes herself from her chair and faces Ulfric and Galmar.

You want to brag about how Ulfric acted foolish while Elisif maintained composure... Elisif doesn't have the bundle load of responsibilities that Ulfric has. Ulfric mantains both his hold, and his Stormcloak army. Falk firebeard, Erikur and General Tullius runs Solitude, not her. Shes there to look pretty, not to rule. All of the responsibilities that requires to rule Solitude goes to Falk Firebeard.

The Thalmor were brought because it was already answered. Make sure the treaty isn't breached, besides being neutral in that Season Unending shows Ulfric's more anger. Siding with Stormcloaks in that quest shows you aren't there to be fair, so of course they get angry. Anyone would be angry if you brought them to Peace talks which weren't fair peace talks but simply one sided... I'm talking about being Neutral in the peace talks which seems more fitting for those who haven't made up their minds. You don't see me bringing Pro Imperial season unending as a valid argument. There is also nothing to suggest Tullius rules Solitude, Elisif is the Jarl of Solitude, her steward handles duties the same as every steward in Skyrim, very rarely do you see a Jarl take part in matters of the Hold.

Ulfric's steward maintains his hold, Galmar and him share the burden of running the Stormcloaks. I always have to go to the steward for things relating to the Hold.

Go spend some quality time with Brina, and you would soon agree with me that shes more suitable for High Queen rather than the inexperienced Jarl from Solitude.

Brina is the only Legate in Skyrim that I truly respect. Shes the perfect Jarl and can be the perfect High Queen.

I think Skyrim would be even more pissed if the Legion placed her on the throne, it's up to the moot. The Legion cannot and would not place anyone on the Throne, the Moot does it, if the Legion were to take over and take away the freedom of the Pact of Chieftains all of Skyrim would be in uproar. We don't know if the Moot will put Elisif, she was apparently meant to be assassinated or killed, since there is dialogue about her death or something. I don't know if that is true since I don't have Skyrim on PC. She does seem like a good choice, being a Jarl she can be considered.

I always wanted to know how come Elenwen doesn't kill the two blades that are in the same room as her?

She can't, she would need absolute proof to have them arrested by the Empire. The Treaty doesn't allow them going around killing Imperial citizens, they can't simply kick down your door without proof, they take prisoners and will defend themselves, but the treaty doesn't give them absolute power, they abuse it in secret, the Empire suspects but it would need proof. They do things more in secret when trying to assassinate you by using Khajiit assassins or when they send Death squads because you've been killing their people. They would never ever try anything like that in front of the Empire. You have to understand the Thalmor are behind enemy lines, masses of Legions sit on their border, if they tried anything that breached the Treaty, the Empire would cut off their heads, send them to Alinor and give the Dominion a little Ultimatum of their own. The treaty doesn't allow the hunting down of Blade Agents, nor is it a crime to have been a Blade, the Thalmor hunt them down in secret for personal reasons for their actions in the war and prior to the war. Unless they breach the treaty for worshiping Talos or break Imperial Law the Thalmor cannot touch them in front of the Empire. The Treaty only officially disbanded the blades.

 

[Raijin]

I always wanted to know how come Elenwen doesn't kill the two blades that are in the same room as her?

Because had Elenwen tried killing the blades inside High Hrothgar she would be than faced with Ulfric (A tongue user) and Galmar PLUS 4 very angry (Master tongue users) greybeards. Elenwen may have the support of Tullius and Rikke, but it's no match.

She can't, she would need absolute proof to have them arrested by the Empire. The Treaty doesn't allow them going around killing Imperial citizens, they can't simply kick down your door without proof, they take prisoners and will defend themselves, but the treaty doesn't give them absolute power, they abuse it in secret, the Empire suspects but it would need proof. They do things more in secret when trying to assassinate you by using Khajiit assassins or when they send Death squads because you've been killing their people. They would never ever try anything like that in front of the Empire. You have to understand the Thalmor are behind enemy lines, masses of Legions sit on their border, if they tried anything that breached the Treaty, the Empire would cut off their heads, send them to Alinor and give the Dominion a little Ultimatum of their own. The treaty doesn't allow the hunting down of Blade Agents, nor is it a crime to have been a Blade, the Thalmor hunt them down in secret for personal reasons for their actions in the war and prior to the war. Unless they breach the treaty for worshiping Talos or break Imperial Law the Thalmor cannot touch them in front of the Empire. The Treaty only officially disbanded the blades.

The Thalmor doesn't need proof from the Empire to arrest or kill them. It's part of the treaty. Esbern and Dephine are the 2 last remanding members of the blades in Skyrim thus giving the Thalmor the right to kill them under the peace treaty. This is why it's best that the Empire loses Skyrim so that the Blades have a safe haven to recover without the Thalmor hunting them down.

The Blades receives zero protection from the Empire because of this treaty.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

The White-Gold Concordat was a treaty signed in 4E 175 between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion that ended the Great War. The conditions of the treaty outlawed the worship of Talos in the Empire, formally disbanded the Blades, and delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion. Emperor Titus Mede II made these concessions to the Thalmor hierarchy in order to give the Imperial Legion time to recover its strength, as it had been decimated in the Battle of the Red Ring.

Here's Esberns Thalmor Dossier.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Esbern

I wont C/p it all here just this: A salutary reminder to all operational levels that no Blades agent should be considered low priority for any reason. All are to be found and justice exacted upon them.

It was probably the best thing that the Dragonborn could of done during the Season unending.... to kick Elenwen out of the meeting before Esbern's name was brought up. His life would've been in more danger if Elenwen was there.

 

[dovaqueen]

The jury is out in matters like these.

IF that "High King" or "War With The Thalmor" DLC does come, it would be great to put her to the test and really see if she can do the job, as far as we know, The Empire is left with little choice in regards to who could become High King.

Of course, we don't know how this mechanic could work, but it's almost assuredly a contest between Elisif and Balgruuf.

I want that DLC to happen so bad. This was more what I was hoping Dragonborn would be about.

Don't rule Ingrod out. She's pretty awesome too. It's too bad her people don't have more faith in her. I love how she helped me at the Thalmor Embassy - "An old woman can get away with anything!"

 

[DrunkenMage]

Because had Elenwen tried killing the blades inside High Hrothgar she would be than faced with Ulfric (A tongue user) and Galmar PLUS 4 very angry (Master tongue users) greybeards. Elenwen may have the support of Tullius and Rikke, but it's no match.



The Thalmor doesn't need proof from the Empire to arrest or kill them. It's part of the treaty. Esbern and Dephine are the 2 last remanding members of the blades in Skyrim thus giving the Thalmor the right to kill them under the peace treaty. This is why it's best that the Empire loses Skyrim so that the Blades hasve a safe haven to recover without the Thalmor hunting them down.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

The White-Gold Concordat was a treaty signed in 4E 175 between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion that ended the Great War. The conditions of the treaty outlawed the worship of Talos in the Empire, formally disbanded the Blades, and delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion. Emperor Titus Mede II made these concessions to the Thalmor hierarchy in order to give the Imperial Legion time to recover its strength, as it had been decimated in the Battle of the Red Ring.

Here's Esberns Thalmor Dossier.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Esbern

I wont C/p it all here just this: A salutary reminder to all operational levels that no Blades agent should be considered low priority for any reason. All are to be found and justice exacted upon them.

It was probably the best thing that the Dragonborn could of done during the Season unending.... to kick Elenwen out of the meeting before Esbern's name was brought up. His life would've been in more danger if Elenwen was there.

Formally disbanding the Blades does not say "Kill on sight" There is no mention that the treaty says they are allowed to kill them. They're hunted down in secret for their actions prior to the Great War. That is pasted from a Thalmor intelligence document for Thalmor eyes only, unless you can show me proof in a document of the Empire of Tamriel or on the treaty where it says the Empire will hunt them down. Please do, showing what the Thalmor do in secret is not the Treaty. Officially they were disbanded, "Esbern, if the Empire could even acknowledge the Blades existence, we'd all have reason to celebrate."

There is no where does it say the Empire will hunt them down, they were simply disbanded, the Thalmor hunt them down in secret for their efforts against them. She was directly involved in several of the most damaging operations carried out by the Blades within the Dominion. She had been identified and was slated for the initial purge, but by bad luck was recalled to Cyrodiil just before the outbreak of hostilities. During the war, she evaded three attempts on her life, in one case killing an entire assassination team. - Thalmor Dossier Delphine No mention of Imperial Law in either Dossier, or by terms of the Treaty... Why would they hide this information inside a locked chest if it is legal to kill blades?

Don't try twist words on a treaty that only says disbanding of the Blades as "Kill on sight, by Imperial law"

Just so you understand what Disbanded means.
Verb

1. Cause (an organized group) to break up.
2. (of an organized group) Break up and stop functioning as an organization.

Tullius would never jump to her defense if she tried to break terms of a treaty in full view, he would kill her, he hates her. The Empire hates the Thalmor, they aren't best buddies.

 

[Raijin]

Formally disbanding the Blades does not say "Kill on sight" There is no mention that the treaty says they are allowed to kill them. They're hunted down in secret for their actions prior to the Great War. That is pasted from a Thalmor intelligence document for Thalmor eyes only, unless you can show me proof in a document of the Empire of Tamriel or on the treaty where it says the Empire will hunt them down. Please do, showing what the Thalmor do in secret is not the Treaty. Officially they were disbanded, "Esbern, if the Empire could even acknowledge the Blades existence, we'd all have reason to celebrate."

There is no where does it say the Empire will hunt them down, they were simply disbanded, the Thalmor hunt them down in secret for their efforts against them. She was directly involved in several of the most damaging operations carried out by the Blades within the Dominion. She had been identified and was slated for the initial purge, but by bad luck was recalled to Cyrodiil just before the outbreak of hostilities. During the war, she evaded three attempts on her life, in one case killing an entire assassination team. - Thalmor Dossier Delphine No mention of Imperial Law in either Dossier, or by terms of the Treaty... Why would they hide this information inside a locked chest if it is legal to kill blades?

Don't try twist words on a treaty that only says disbanding of the Blades as "Kill on sight, by Imperial law"

Just so you understand what Disbanded means.
Verb

1. Cause (an organized group) to break up.
2. (of an organized group) Break up and stop functioning as an organization.

Tullius would never jump to her defense if she tried to break terms of a treaty in full view, he would kill her, he hates her. The Empire hates the Thalmor, they aren't best buddies.

Explain this to me then This clearly indicates "Kill on sight" mission. Why is Esbern hiding out in the ratway if the Thalmor wasn't hunting him down like skeever?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Blades#The_Fall_of_the_Blades
The Fall of the Blades

The Fourth Era began without a Dragonborn to lead the Empire, paving the way for the Mede Dynasty to take over in 4E 17. In the second century, the Blades realized that the Thalmor posed a great threat to the Empire, and to any Dragonborn should they return. The Great War between humans and elves began in 4E 171, when a Thalmor emissary demanded the surrender of the Empire, and when they refused, dumped the heads of 100 Blades agents who had been operating within the Aldmeri Dominion on the floor, along with the demand that the Blades be disbanded. Later, the truce known as the White-Gold Concordat, signed by Emperor Titus Mede II in 4E 175, decreed that the Blades be disbanded. Furthermore, the Thalmor were given free rein to hunt down Talos worshippers, a privilege they employed to eliminate the surviving Blades one by one. Massacres occurred at the main Blades fortresses, such as Cloud Ruler Temple. By 4E 200, only a handful of Blades remained on Tamriel, with the Penitus Oculatus having replaced them as the Emperor's bodyguards.

 

[Shadow King]

elisif is the most humble jarl I guess, I never really thought about her untill I saw this thread, but yea she doesn't seem that hatefull compared to other jarls even when she speaks of Ulfric she doesn't say anything to bad, hey maybe she was banging Ulfric and feel in love with him, and they planned the high kings death lmao.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Explain this to me then This clearly indicates "Kill on sight" mission. Why is Esbern hiding out in the ratway if the Thalmor wasn't hunting him down like skeever?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Blades#The_Fall_of_the_Blades
The Fall of the Blades

The Fourth Era began without a Dragonborn to lead the Empire, paving the way for the Mede Dynasty to take over in 4E 17. In the second century, the Blades realized that the Thalmor posed a great threat to the Empire, and to any Dragonborn should they return. The Great War between humans and elves began in 4E 171, when a Thalmor emissary demanded the surrender of the Empire, and when they refused, dumped the heads of 100 Blades agents who had been operating within the Aldmeri Dominion on the floor, along with the demand that the Blades be disbanded. Later, the truce known as the White-Gold Concordat, signed by Emperor Titus Mede II in 4E 175, decreed that the Blades be disbanded. Furthermore, the Thalmor were given free rein to hunt down Talos worshippers, a privilege they employed to eliminate the surviving Blades one by one. Massacres occurred at the main Blades fortresses, such as Cloud Ruler Temple. By 4E 200, only a handful of Blades remained on Tamriel, with the Penitus Oculatus having replaced them as the Emperor's bodyguards.

I said the Empire didn't put them kill on sight, the Blades know the Thalmor would hunt them down in secret, that is why they are hiding. The Empire however do not kill them. That is Lore Blades, it simply states the Thalmor use their privilege to hunt down Talos worshipers to secretly carry out their little war with the Blades. The Blades aren't idiots, they know the Thalmor are hunting them, that they would never stop. You should use the book instead of the small lore paragraph. Trying to make out the Treaty says they can be killed is false, which you have been and only seek to continue to make that argument weaker. They're being hunted down by the Thalmor because of their actions Prior to the Great War, Esbern is hiding because he is fearful of the Thalmor, not the Empire. The Thalmor can't kill him in front of the Empire, being a Blade isn't a crime against Imperial Law, killing an Imperial citizen in full view of the Legion would cause the Thalmor to have breached the Treaty, thus forcing the Legion to arrest the Thalmor or kill them. "Our mission is to serve the Emperor, uphold the Law, and protect the citizenry."

The Empire of the 4th era no longer saw the Blades openly protecting it, or the Emperors. That role is now filled by the Penitus Oculatus, a purely Imperial organization. But the Blades continued their secret work, to watch for the Dragonborn and guard against future enemies. The Blades were among the first to see the signs that the Thalmor of the Aldmeri Dominion would not remain isolated within their borders forever. They could do what the Penitus Oculatus, servant to Imperial policy, could not, and thus earned the lasting hatred of the Thalmor.

They are not fools. They knew early on that the Blades were an enemy. So they hunted them throughout the Great War. Some were killed defending their Temples, others as they slept in their hideaways, alone. Some fought, some ran, some hid. But the Thalmor found them all.
There are those that say the Blades still exist around us, in hiding from the Thalmor. Waiting as they have done time and time again, for a Dragonborn to return. For one to protect, for one to guide them.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Blades

Still not one single mention that being an ex member of the Blades is a crime against Imperial law, thinking through your arguments would be a good start. The Treaty doesn't make the Thalmor above Imperial law, they can only officially abide by the Terms of the Treaty and make sure the Empire abides by it also, hence why the Thalmor are included in the Imperial delegation, the last time Ulfric made demands it breached the treaty.

I did have a little listen to Igmund, he didn't pay Ulfric money, just free worship of Talos in hope the Elves wouldn't find out, when they did they demanded the arrest of the Militia and Ulfric Stormcloak, it was either arrest him or go right back into war, the war having just ended no one was willing to risk the fragile hard won treaty, that thousands died for. Igmund was at fault for breaching the treaty but he said he was desperate, and he had hoped the Thalmor wouldn't find out. No one was willing to risk going to war then and there, thus the Markarth Incident was born when Ulfric was arrested. Igmund should of perhaps been arrested but they didn't care for him, the Thalmor demands were the immediate arrest of Ulfric Stormcloak and the Militia or it's back to war.

Now that I have proven point.

Elisif is a fine person, she is a great Jarl just more responsibility has been put on her shoulders, she witnessed the death of her husband and is still going strong. She may or may not be a puppet to the Empire, still better than Ulfric. Mr Thalmor creation, he's just a Thalmor experiment allowed to escape.

You tried to use the other Thalmor Dossier's as evidence which I found surprising because you discredit the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak because it doesn't put him in the type of light that you like. You can't ignore one evidence while accepting another, you either take in all facts or none at all. You can't simply discredit something because it doesn't suit you, which you have done a fair few times. Your arguments while they can have some good points at times, generally start lacking when you start pulling for straws. Such as the dislike for the Empire which you call cowards for forming a Peace Treaty, but you also dislike the Empire for fighting the Great War, because they rejected the Thalmor Ultimatum. That is a rather contradiction in your stance, since you find them cowardly but try to say they should of surrendered without a fight like you would of supported them, which we all know you wouldn't. Therefor no amount of logic and reason on my part would ever make an impact. While I do enjoy our back and forth views, I find it hard to talk logic and common sense.

Back to Elisif though, I don't see what anyone has against her, she is still Jarl even after Ulfric's take over, so he wants her as his woman secretly, that is why he killed her husband and started the rebellion so he could bed Elisif.

He wishes he could have some of this;

I would tap that.

 

[Nocte Aeterna]

She's quite the beaut, isn't she?

 

[DrunkenMage]

She's quite the beaut, isn't she?

I know right, can't hate that.

 

[Adam Belmont]

she is still Jarl even after Ulfric's take over, so he wants her as his woman secretly, that is why he killed her husband and started the rebellion so he could bed Elisif.

He wishes he could have some of this;

I would tap that.

Finally there's something I agree with you, man.

 

[Gowsh]

The jury is out in matters like these.

IF that "High King" or "War With The Thalmor" DLC does come, it would be great to put her to the test and really see if she can do the job, as far as we know, The Empire is left with little choice in regards to who could become High King.

Of course, we don't know how this mechanic could work, but it's almost assuredly a contest between Elisif and Balgruuf.

Let's not forget the woman who was the Empire's choice to run Dawnstar.

I found her very impressive, if, perhaps,a bit parochial. She does have Legion experience, though.

I'd rate her as a good dark horse/compromise candidate.

That is, of course, if my char has had to turn down the job for some reason.

"King by his own hand." I've always liked the sound of that.

 

[dovaqueen]

elisif is the most humble jarl I guess, I never really thought about her untill I saw this thread, but yea she doesn't seem that hatefull compared to other jarls even when she speaks of Ulfric she doesn't say anything to bad, hey maybe she was banging Ulfric and feel in love with him, and they planned the high kings death lmao.

Well, I don't put it past Ulfric to covet something that belongs to someone else..... unless Elisif is a very good actor and has us fooled I can't see it in her. On the off hand something like this would turn up to be true, it would be the biggest WTF moment ever though.