Can't Decide between Stormcloaks or Imperials...

[Mookie]

You're grasp of the English language is both frightening and amusing.

This thread died, came back, and got hit by a car driven by Peter Griffin...

Trollololololo

 

[Koala Jack]

Trollololololo

I majored in it during college.

WINK WINK WINK.

 

[Mookie]

You cared enough to comment about my choices. And I cared enough to respond.

Its not about your choice. Its about an ongoing fight on the forum. Imperial dudes take things too seriously and its fun to be oposition on a forum.
Try both. Or dont. Its an RPG

 

[Mookie]

I majored in it during college.

WINK WINK WINK.

Well pay my tuition, schollarship and fees and I will speak as well.
If not, as long as you get the general idea, its good enough

 

[Lunaruse]

Its not about your choice. Its about an ongoing fight on the forum. Imperial dudes take things too seriously and its fun to be oposition on a forum.
Try both. Or dont. Its an RPG

No, no. I meant you literally cared enough to comment on my choice. I've actually really enjoyed reading these posts and I'm not blaming you for being with the stormcloaks either, I understand both sides (hence why I made this discussion in the first place) and it would be boring with only one side responding.

 

[Mookie]

No, no. I meant you literally cared enough to comment on my choice. I've actually really enjoyed reading these posts and I'm not blaming you for being with the stormcloaks either, I understand both sides (hence why I made this discussion in the first place) and it would be boring with only one side responding.

I cared enough to participate. Imperials are all having some bloody scripts of what to say and just copy from the blody thing. Your heart tells you to join the stormcloaks? "no you are stupid ulfric this, ulfric that, nords this, nords that, skyrim cant defend but its vital to defence, status quo is awesome and corupted empire which didnt exterminate racism in hundreds and hundreds of years of its existence is now somehow vital in exterminating racism and all that. Bull, you have 2 options, try both.

 

[Dagmar]

Thank you
Personal attack and double standard at its best

Attacking the stupidity of a statement is not a personal attack regardless of whether you can't understand the difference. You also clearly have no understanding of what a double standard is either. The standard of assessing the validity and intelligence of assertions is central and universal to the concept of discussion and debate, and when something is a spade one calls it a spade.

 

[Epic Keith]

I guess we should stop. I've seen enough hell out of the 450 pages of "that" thread and I won't survive another thread. Besides, this debate is pretty much one-sided. The Stormies hardly have any legitimate content and there's one of them against ten of us.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I guess we should stop. I've seen enough hell out of the 450 pages of "that" thread and I won't survive another thread. Besides, this debate is pretty much one-sided. The Stormies hardly have any legitimate content and there's one of them against ten of us.

Well no one is forcing you to take part in this thread, the debate between Stormcloaks or Imperial Legion is never even fair. I don't remember you throwing in the towel when it was me alone against several Stormcloak supporters.

The Empire should be a rather easy target, they've had a long history and many of their systems are corrupt. Not the fault of Legion/Empire supporters if the Stormcloak supporters lack any logical arguments. It could easily be argued the Empire doesn't care about what goes on Skyrim as long as it doesn't affect their income and exploitation of natural resources, that in fact entire Legions themselves can be corruptible or become a threat to the Empire itself while they're idle in some crap hole or Generals have a large influence and their costs to maintain garrisons in other provinces are highly expensive, which the citizen's pay for through tax. Take when Morrowind & Black Marsh were a part of the Empire.

Indeed, a few beneficiaries of Imperial monopolies in the provinces do
profit from exploitation of their wealth and resources. But does the Empire as a whole benefit? Hardly. The vast machineries of the Imperial bureaucracies cost far more to maintain than can be recovered in duties and taxes. And the cost of establishing and maintaining the garrisons of the Imperial legion in the far-flung wilderness posts of these provinces would be cost-effective only if there were evidence of a military threat from the East.

In fact, a greater threat to Imperial security lies in the idle legions that the taxpayer spends thousands of drakes to support. The generals of these legions, facing no enemies or opposition within the borders of their provinces, may look with ambition to the West. With their loyal veteran troops and coffers fattened by friendly monopolists, they become unpredictable political factors in the uncertainties surrounding the Imperial succession.

If the occupation of Morrowind and Black Marsh were motivated by idealistic aspirations, perhaps there might lie some justification for bearing the burden of Empire. But consider the shame of the Empire's mute acceptance to the unspeakable practice of slavery in Morrowind. Instead of using our Imperial legions to free the wretched Khajiit and Argonian slaves from their Dark Elf masters, we pay our troopers to PROTECT the indefensible institution of slavery. Within the ebony mines of Morrowind, bloated monopolists under Imperial charters exploit slave labor to harvest the outrageous profits assured by rampant graft and corruption.

Consider the colossal arrogance of our proposition to bring Peace and Enlightenment to the East, when in fact, we have only brought our armies into lands who have never threatened us, and when we have only exploited the most shameful and evil practices we have found in Morrowind and Black Marsh simply to enrich the friends and flatterers of the Imperial family.

Impartially considered, our occupation of the Eastern provinces is morally corrupt, militarily indefensible, and economically ruinous. The only conclusion is that we should disband the Eastern legions, withdraw the Imperial bureaucracies and monopolists from the East, and give these ancient lands and peoples their freedom. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Eastern_Provinces

You also have the good side, people always complain about how the Septim's died and it was the end of the Empire, that is not true. Considering it was Skyrim who actually endorsed the Mede dynasty.

After seven long, bloody years the Stormcrown Interregnum was ended when a Colovian warlord by the name of Titus Mede seized the crown. Whether he had rightful claim or not is moot. Without Titus Mede, there would not be an Empire today. He proved a shrewd and capable leader, such that Skyrim endorsed him as Emperor. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Rising_Threat,_Vol._IV

Now some Stormcloak Supporters argue the Empire would never let Skyrim go, the Empire is like a business, to keep Skyrim it does cost them thousands if not millions to maintain garrisons and Imperial interests in the far flung North. If Ulfric had indeed asked Torygg to declare independence peacefully from the Empire, you really think the Empire wouldn't? It would cut spending twenty fold. Money is what the rulers of the Empire care about, now considering trade relations would still be open and they would be on friendly terms, just outside of the Imperial policy. That is a huge benefit, they wouldn't have to keep spending so much to maintain garrisons and supplies to those garrisons or worry about maintaining and repairing forts.

Ulfric forced the Legions to step in, he struck first with violence and people complain when the Empire responds with violence? Peace talks aren't Ulfric's strong point, we can all agree on that for anyone who has done Season Unending from a neutral stand point. Ulfric killed the High King, no one denies that, now what really brought the Hammer down, not only did he kill the High King of Skyrim after he did it he rose up in open rebellion against the Western Holds, that threw peace out the window and hopes of avoiding war. The Empire didn't want a war, Ulfric wanted a war, he wanted glory and songs. If he cared about Skyrim's people why not go for a peaceful solution instead of declaring the Western Holds as enemies and anyone who doesn't join your cause as an enemy. The man wanted war, those who want war want blood. That's the man Stormcloaks love and adore? Claims to care about his people, so he gives them a war in which families are torn apart and shield brothers and shield sisters fight one another.

He acts all humble and pretends to hesitate in taking lives, that is an act. The man wanted violence, because he believes there is glory to be had in war, he sounds rather blood thirsty if you ask me. Everything points to there could of been a peaceful solution, but this is who many want as High King.

Speak ill all you want about Jarl Elisif but at least she does care about her people.
"Haafingar's people will always be safe under my rule."

 

[Epic Keith]

Well no one is forcing you to take part in this thread, the debate between Stormcloaks or Imperial Legion is never even fair. I don't remember you throwing in the towel when it was me alone against several Stormcloak supporters.

The Empire should be a rather easy target, they've had a long history and many of their systems are corrupt. Not the fault of Legion/Empire supporters if the Stormcloak supporters lack any logical arguments. It could easily be argued the Empire doesn't care about what goes on Skyrim as long as it doesn't affect their income and exploitation of natural resources, that in fact entire Legions themselves can be corruptible or become a threat to the Empire itself while they're idle or Generals have a large influence and their costs to maintain garrisons in other provinces are highly expensive, which the citizen's pay for through tax. Take when Morrowind & Black Marsh were a part of the Empire.

Indeed, a few beneficiaries of Imperial monopolies in the provinces do
profit from exploitation of their wealth and resources. But does the Empire as a whole benefit? Hardly. The vast machineries of the Imperial bureaucracies cost far more to maintain than can be recovered in duties and taxes. And the cost of establishing and maintaining the garrisons of the Imperial legion in the far-flung wilderness posts of these provinces would be cost-effective only if there were evidence of a military threat from the East.

In fact, a greater threat to Imperial security lies in the idle legions that the taxpayer spends thousands of drakes to support. The generals of these legions, facing no enemies or opposition within the borders of their provinces, may look with ambition to the West. With their loyal veteran troops and coffers fattened by friendly monopolists, they become unpredictable political factors in the uncertainties surrounding the Imperial succession.

If the occupation of Morrowind and Black Marsh were motivated by idealistic aspirations, perhaps there might lie some justification for bearing the burden of Empire. But consider the shame of the Empire's mute acceptance to the unspeakable practice of slavery in Morrowind. Instead of using our Imperial legions to free the wretched Khajiit and Argonian slaves from their Dark Elf masters, we pay our troopers to PROTECT the indefensible institution of slavery. Within the ebony mines of Morrowind, bloated monopolists under Imperial charters exploit slave labor to harvest the outrageous profits assured by rampant graft and corruption.

Consider the colossal arrogance of our proposition to bring Peace and Enlightenment to the East, when in fact, we have only brought our armies into lands who have never threatened us, and when we have only exploited the most shameful and evil practices we have found in Morrowind and Black Marsh simply to enrich the friends and flatterers of the Imperial family.

Impartially considered, our occupation of the Eastern provinces is morally corrupt, militarily indefensible, and economically ruinous. The only conclusion is that we should disband the Eastern legions, withdraw the Imperial bureaucracies and monopolists from the East, and give these ancient lands and peoples their freedom. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Eastern_Provinces

You also have the good side, people always complain about how the Septim's died and it was the end of the Empire, that is not true. Considering it was Skyrim who actually endorsed the Mede dynasty.

After seven long, bloody years the Stormcrown Interregnum was ended when a Colovian warlord by the name of Titus Mede seized the crown. Whether he had rightful claim or not is moot. Without Titus Mede, there would not be an Empire today. He proved a shrewd and capable leader, such that Skyrim endorsed him as Emperor. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Rising_Threat,_Vol._IV

Now some Stormcloak Supporters argue the Empire would never let Skyrim go, the Empire is like a business, to keep Skyrim it does cost them thousands if not millions to maintain garrisons and Imperial interests in the far flung North. If Ulfric had indeed asked Torygg to declare independence peacefully from the Empire, you really think the Empire wouldn't? It would cut spending twenty fold. Money is what the rulers of the Empire care about, now considering trade relations would still be open and they would be on friendly terms, just outside of the Imperial policy. That is a huge benefit, they wouldn't have to keep spending so much to maintain garrisons and supplies to those garrisons or worry about maintaining and repairing forts.

Ulfric forced the Legions to step in, he struck first with violence and people complain when the Empire responds with violence? Peace talks aren't Ulfric's strong point, we can all agree on that for anyone who has done Season Unending from a neutral stand point. Ulfric killed the High King, no one denies that, now what really brought the Hammer down, not only did he kill the High King of Skyrim after he did it he rose up in open rebellion against the Western Holds, that threw peace out the window and hopes of avoiding war. The Empire didn't want a war, Ulfric wanted a war, he wanted glory and songs. If he cared about Skyrim's people why not go for a peaceful solution instead of declaring the Western Holds as enemies and anyone who doesn't join your cause as an enemy. The man wanted war, those who want war want blood. That's the man Stormcloaks love and adore? Claims to care about his people, so he gives them a war in which families are torn apart and shield brothers and shield sisters fight one another.

It's just this debate keeps attracting me like a magnet, so....yeah

 

[DrunkenMage]

It's just this debate keeps attracting me like a magnet, so....yeah

Then beat down some Stormcloaks, they wouldn't hesitate to gang up on you. Believe me, I know.

I find General Tullius amusing, especially during the Battle of Windhelm when he's finally got Ulfric.

Tullius: "Well Ulfric, you can't escape from me this time. Any last requests before I send you to... to wherever you people go when you die."

 

[Epic Keith]

Then beat down some Stormcloaks, they wouldn't hesitate to gang up on you. Believe me, I know.

I find General Tullius amusing, especially during the Battle of Windhelm when he's finally got Ulfric.

Tullius: "Well Ulfric, you can't escape from me this time. Any last requests before I send you to... to wherever you people go when you die."

Ok, lets do it....... LETS KICK SOME ASS!

 

[Anouck]

They dont see themselves as superior race. All they are saying is and I quote:
"Skyrim belongs to the Nords"

Its like saying France belongs to Frenchmen. What is nazi about that?

Well, the dark elves have to live in the 'Grey quarters' which kind of reminds me to the getto's of Warsaw..

The Stormies hardly have any legitimate content and there's one of them against ten of us.

Where's Raijin at?

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

It's just this debate keeps attracting me like a magnet, so....yeah

It will do that for a while, but once you realize that reading the debate is like watching endless reruns of the same 6 episodes of some 1960's family sitcoms broadcast in b&w, it will lose its power over you. At that point, your participation will consist of reassuring persons like yourself that there can be an end in sight, and that you are not powerless.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Where's Raijin at?

Recovering from the beat down I gave him.

 

[Mookie]

Attacking the stupidity of a statement is not a personal attack regardless of whether you can't understand the difference. You also clearly have no understanding of what a double standard is either. The standard of assessing the validity and intelligence of assertions is central and universal to the concept of discussion and debate, and when something is a spade one calls it a spade.

When I say double standards I dont mean about your personal attack. I mean that if someone dies in the war its stromcloak fault without the slightest imperial fault. When Thalmor take someone its stormcloak fault, Whiterun is attacked -stormcloak fault. The entire thread and discussion is turning a blind eye to empires fault and when a stormcloak suporter shows something bad about empire its again - guess what - stormcloak fault.

 

[Mookie]

Well, the dark elves have to live in the 'Grey quarters' which kind of reminds me to the getto's of Warsaw..


Where's Raijin at?

How does limited and strict breeding laws sound?
Elimination of oposition trough opression and torture?

Yay, its again stormcloak fault ?

 

[DrunkenMage]

How does limited and strict breeding laws sound?
Elimination of oposition trough opression and torture?

Yay, its again stormcloak fault ?

Windhelm has a torture room. Nords have also oppressed the people of the Reach, forbid them from worshiping their own gods and put chains on them to near slavery. Don't claim the victim.

 

[Mookie]

Windhelm has a torture room. Nords have also oppressed the people of the Reach, forbid them from worshiping their own gods and put chains on them to near slavery. Don't claim the victim.

Said only in Bear of Markarth, an imperial propaganda book. Like quoting Mein Kampf when discussing hebrew culture.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Said only in Bear of Markarth, an imperial propaganda book. Like quoting Mein Kampf when discussing hebrew culture.

Imperial propaganda? The book makes no mention of the Civil War which would suggest it was written during Ulfric's imprisonment. You class something as propaganda due to the author's race, doesn't mean his political views are that of the Empire. In his second book he doesn't write highly about the Imperial Legion, since he doesn't make the Empire look perfect does that make it Stormcloak propaganda?