Can't Decide between Stormcloaks or Imperials...

[Mookie]

I think the Stormcloaks are hypocrits here. They have a lot in common with the Forsworn. When speaking about 'Skyrim for the Nords' they should feel sympathy for them..

Kinda hard when they wont stop shooting at you even if you save their king..
And when they use the great war to capture the reach and do God knows what.

 

[DrunkenMage]

What you are saying goes completely against everything what is described in the bear. You cant kill all the kids that can hold the sword, all the old, all the nords and all bretons and then have them nice and alive or alive and spared or anything like that. It is said they are dead, murdered by Ulfric, why are they alive?


They have no idea that Silver Bloods have anything to do with Forsworn, all they want is cidhna mine and they dont care how they get it.
As for Nepo, yes he is the contact, a very important person if I am not wrong and a prime targer for execution by Ulfric. But he lives ?

People move, that is right, but Winterhold couldnt recover in 200 years but markarth did in 20 :/
Really man?
Silver bloods use them for geting rid of oposition yes, but your General doesnt know that, they werent used like that when Ulfric took the city, and it wasnt silver bloods that Ulfric listened or helped, it was Igmund.

The Silver-Bloods had all the influence, the halted the execution of the LEADER of the Forsworn uprising, why is he still alive then? "I had Markarth. My men and I drove the Nords out. We had won, or so we thought. Retribution was swift. I was captured, quickly tried, and sentenced to death. But my execution never came. Thonar Silver-Blood stopped it. He wanted the Forsworn at his call, that I would point their rage at his enemies and spare his allies."

Winterhold was destroyed, basically the entire city fell into the sea. No one wanted to stay and rebuild and they left. Markarth wasn't destroyed, buildings were intact. Do you see a difference from city falling into the sea and city undamaged? And it was 4E 122 the Great collapse not 200 years ago, the year isn't 4E 322.

 

[Mookie]

The Silver-Bloods had all the influence, the halted the execution of the LEADER of the Forsworn uprising, why is he still alive then? "I had Markarth. My men and I drove the Nords out. We had won, or so we thought. Retribution was swift. I was captured, quickly tried, and sentenced to death. But my execution never came. Thonar Silver-Blood stopped it. He wanted the Forsworn at his call, that I would point their rage at his enemies and spare his allies."

Winterhold was destroyed, basically the entire city fell into the sea. No one wanted to stay and rebuild and they left. Markarth wasn't destroyed, buildings were intact. Do you see a difference from city falling into the sea and city undamaged? And it was 4E 122 the Great collapse not 200 years ago, the year isn't 4E 322.

Which then also negates that Ulfric comited what bear of markarth says. Once more you fall into a trap
And actualy I do see a diference. Move with your family to a city under constant threat of Forsworn attacks, that was also taken by forsworn not so long ago and a place where everyone was killed, vs free land in relatively safe winterhold ?
Cities dont repopulate that fast, especialy not after mass murder that you acuse Ulfric of. That tends to drive people away.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Nothing, I wanted to join them once when playing with a breton necromancer. Weird, last I recall they and a hag wanted to burn me alive even after I saved their king.
And it is wrong when you are writing a book about someone who has undone something you like and have wanted to hapen. His work is biased and propaganda. You cant go against that unless you are willing to turn a blind eye to the facts.

Second, Jarl to be promised Ulfric that, but they also didnt let the empire in the city until they acknowledged and accepted the agreement.
Which also shows what they are after, they will accept everything to get to the silver. Once they secured the silver mines they magicaly remembered the WGC.
Yeah right...

Well like I have said before, the Empire cares about their money. Still makes them the better choice for those seeking to destroy the Aldmeri Dominion. I never said the Empire was perfect and in many posts I have actually given arguments to be used against the Empire, more valid ones than many Stormcloak supporters use. The Empire is a bureaucracy, many things about it are corrupt.

Though didn't you say The Empire died when the Septim's did? I found that interesting since it was Skyrim who actually endorsed the Mede dynasty. After seven long, bloody years the Stormcrown Interregnum was ended when a Colovian warlord by the name of Titus Mede seized the crown. Whether he had rightful claim or not is moot. Without Titus Mede, there would not be an Empire today. He proved a shrewd and capable leader, such that Skyrim endorsed him as Emperor.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Which then also negates that Ulfric comited what bear of markarth says. Once more you fall into a trap
And actualy I do see a diference. Move with your family to a city under constant threat of Forsworn attacks, that was also taken by forsworn not so long ago and a place where everyone was killed, vs free land in relatively safe winterhold ?
Cities dont repopulate that fast, especialy not after mass murder that you acuse Ulfric of. That tends to drive people away.

Ulfric is considered a hero by many, to many people it wasn't mass murder but justice. Tell me would you move to an area where someone you consider a great hero fought there and liberated it from the Forsworn?

 

[Mookie]

Well like I have said before, the Empire cares about their money. Still makes them the better choice for those seeking to destroy the Aldmeri Dominion. I never said the Empire was perfect and in many posts I have actually given arguments to be used against the Empire, more valid ones than many Stormcloak supporters use. The Empire is a bureaucracy, many things about it are corrupt.

Though didn't you say The Empire died when the Septim's did? I found that interesting since it was Skyrim who actually endorsed the Mede dynasty. After seven long, bloody years the Stormcrown Interregnum was ended when a Colovian warlord by the name of Titus Mede seized the crown. Whether he had rightful claim or not is moot. Without Titus Mede, there would not be an Empire today. He proved a shrewd and capable leader, such that Skyrim endorsed him as Emperor.

The empire is corupt, full of politicians who care only about profit and money, Skyrim is starting to turn into such a place with imperial thanes and jarls going on regular parties to Thalmor embassy. A shady character also seeks to kill the emperor.
Yes you given them, but you never seriously considered them.
For me personaly Empire died with Septim dinasty. They have been a mad bunch most of the time but they still held respect, and ultimate power to save the world. Which in the end they did.
Nords created the empire, they have a right to pull the plug.
You asked me then for my opinion, and I gave you my opinion
It isnt suported or anything but is my personal opinion as a player.
And I personaly dont mind the empire as much, my first game was as an imperial, but after geting into nord roleplay I could never get myself to finish the game as an imperial. It simply didnt feel right.

 

[Anouck]

 

[Mookie]

Ulfric is considered a hero by many, to many people it wasn't mass murder but justice. Tell me would you move to an area where someone you consider a great hero fought there and liberated it from the Forsworn?

No, I have such a place in my homeland, Srebrenica, 8000 of my people were killed there. Close to border, dangerous in case of war. I would never move there.

 

[Mookie]

View attachment 5260

Reinforcements on the way

 

[DrunkenMage]

The empire is corupt, full of politicians who care only about profit and money, Skyrim is starting to turn into such a place with imperial thanes and jarls going on regular parties to Thalmor embassy. A shady character also seeks to kill the emperor.
Yes you given them, but you never seriously considered them.
For me personaly Empire died with Septim dinasty. They have been a mad bunch most of the time but they still held respect, and ultimate power to save the world. Which in the end they did.
Nords created the empire, they have a right to pull the plug.
You asked me then for my opinion, and I gave you my opinion
It isnt suported or anything but is my personal opinion as a player.
And I personaly dont mind the empire as much, my first game was as an imperial, but after geting into nord roleplay I could never get myself to finish the game as an imperial. It simply didnt feel right.

Shady character seeks to kill the Emperor? That is a member of the Elder Council, those who enjoy killing Titus Mede II over the treaty actually killed him for a member who helped create the terms. Titus had no control over those terms. Welcome to the politics of the Empire, bribes, assassinations etc.

Nords didn't create the Empire, they joined it when they were defeated by Tiber Septim and his Colovian forces at the battle of Sancre Tor, the Imperials created their Empires. You really think Tiber Septim could create his Empire without the highly trained Imperial Legions?

 

[Ivory]

Skyrim is starting to turn into such a place with imperial thanes and jarls going on regular parties to Thalmor embassy. A shady character also seeks to kill the emperor.

There are is no Jarl that is of Imperial descent . All are Nords. Both before and after the civil war on BOTH sides.

 

[Mookie]

There are is no Jarl that is of Imperial descent . All are Nords. Both before and after the civil war on BOTH sides.

Capnt obvious
I didnt speak in terms of descent, I spoke in terms of loyalties
I hoped that would be clear

 

[Mookie]

Shady character seeks to kill the Emperor? That is a member of the Elder Council, those who enjoy killing Titus Mede II over the treaty actually killed him for a member who helped create the terms. Titus had no control over those terms. Welcome to the politics of the Empire, bribes, assassinations etc.

Nords didn't create the Empire, they joined it when they were defeated by Tiber Septim and his Colovian forces at the battle of Sancre Tor, the Imperials created their Empires. You really think Tiber Septim could create his Empire without the highly trained Imperial Legions?

Go to old hroldan and see that imperial for yourself
Hjalti early-beard was a nord, well atmoran, but all nords are of atmoran descent so its all the same.
He led nordic troops and imperial troops as well while serving as a general for colovian rulers.
He betrayed them and used his troops to make his empire. He also betrayes Ysmir and captured his sould so he can power his Numidium. He isnt an awesome character, nor do I like him as such. He reminds me too much of Alexander for that.
I have a question, do you think Hjalti would form empire or become one of divines if he had stayed loyal, if he didnt do what he did?

 

[DrunkenMage]

I have considered the flaws in the Empire into consideration, I was once a Stormcloak supporter. I see things like this, yes the Empire may have it's flaws and corruption, but it's policies and structures have been around for thousands of years. The Stormcloaks have been around for only a couple of years, for the Stormcloaks to have so many arguments against them in their short time span... you would think they would have something good going for them?

How can something that has only been around for a very short time have so many valid and damaging arguments against them.

 

[Mookie]

I have considered the flaws in the Empire into consideration, I was once a Stormcloak supporter. I see things like this, yes the Empire may have it's flaws and corruption, but it's policies and structures have been around for thousands of years. The Stormcloaks have been around for only a couple of years, for the Stormcloaks to have so many arguments against them in their short time span... you would think they would have something good going for them?

How can something that has only been around for a very short time have so many valid and damaging arguments against them.

Because thousands of years of existence give more power. Stormcloaks are establishing themselves, they are weak to slander and libel. People are undecided and Nords didnt rule themselves for thousands of years.
You wouldnt believe how many arguments were there against independence of Imperial colonies in our world.
"they are too weak" "they are savages" they this they that. But those countries survived.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Go to old hroldan and see that imperial for yourself
Hjalti early-beard was a nord, well atmoran, but all nords are of atmoran descent so its all the same.
He led nordic troops and imperial troops as well while serving as a general for colovian rulers.
He betrayed them and used his troops to make his empire. He also betrayes Ysmir and captured his sould so he can power his Numidium. He isnt an awesome character, nor do I like him as such. He reminds me too much of Alexander for that.
I have a question, do you think Hjalti would form empire or become one of divines if he had stayed loyal, if he didnt do what he did?

There are so many stories about Talos that no one knows the truth for certain. The Nords attacked him after the Battle for Old Hroldan, they invaded Cyrodiil because they feared The Colovian King and his unbeatable General. He took the name Tiber Septim when he became Emperor, no one is questioning his race. The Empire's policies date back to the First Empire, there for they're Imperial created until the policies are all changed. Until things become Nord Authority instead of Imperial Authority or Nord Legion instead of Imperial Legion etc. Nords didn't create the Cyrodiil Empires.

He did stay loyal on one account, he also created a religious cult for his King that he served. 'Cult of Emperor Zero' I believe it is called.

 

[Mookie]

There are so many stories about Talos that no one knows the truth for certain. The Nords attacked him after the Battle for Old Hroldan, they invaded Cyrodiil because they feared The Colovian King and his unbeatable General. He took the name Tiber Septim when he became Emperor, no one is questioning his race. The Empire's policies date back to the First Empire, there for they're Imperial created until the policies are all changed. Until things become Nord Authority instead of Imperial Authority or Nord Legion instead of Imperial Legion etc. Nords didn't create the Cyrodiil Empires.

He did stay loyal on one account, he also created a religious cult for his King that he served. 'Cult of Emperor Zero' I believe it is called.

Would you suport ulfric if he made Titus Mede into a divine
He tried to make up for treason, but his bad ways led to him loosing the Voice.
And I want you to understand that I didnt argue with you because I dislike you or anything.
I argued with all of you because you dont let people decide. Every moment there is a thread like this no one says try out. All of a suden a hailstorm of arguments for and against empire rise up.
All I am asking is let the people chose

 

[DrunkenMage]

Because thousands of years of existence give more power. Stormcloaks are establishing themselves, they are weak to slander and libel. People are undecided and Nords didnt rule themselves for thousands of years.
You wouldnt believe how many arguments were there against independence of Imperial colonies in our world.
"they are too weak" "they are savages" they this they that. But those countries survived.

Nords have always ruled themselves, they have never once been conquered. Nords have been a part of many Empire's, they were a part of the Second Empire also. I don't think they were a part of the First Empire, I think they were just allies to it. I'm uncertain of that one.

Stormcloaks are racial supremacists who believe themselves better than other races and consider others as 'lesser beings' as they put it. That doesn't exactly scream the best movement that Skyrim needs. All things considered the Empire are the ones who can fight the Aldmeri Dominion, they can reach the Aldmeri Dominion. The Stormcloaks can't, the White-Gold Concordat is only in effect until the war breaks out. Is it really worth tearing apart the Empire before the Great War starts up again? Leaving Cyrodiil cut off to face three united provinces? I don't know about you but I say a United Empire is what is needed to defeat a United Aldmeri Dominion.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Would you suport ulfric if he made Titus Mede into a divine
He tried to make up for treason, but his bad ways led to him loosing the Voice.
And I want you to understand that I didnt argue with you because I dislike you or anything.
I argued with all of you because you dont let people decide. Every moment there is a thread like this no one says try out. All of a suden a hailstorm of arguments for and against empire rise up.
All I am asking is let the people chose

I have never forced anyone to do anything, the arguments are used when arguments are used against the Empire, that is the point of this, to go over what is what. I don't reply to arguments that say "I like stormcloaks because I'm a rebel" People are always allowed to choose, I will argue if something is used against the Empire and it's not exactly right or there is a counter argument to that. The point of these threads are really a political debate, I don't say in my posts join the Legion cause I said so. I offer an argument that I try to give a little backing, by all logical stand points I could say "I like the Legion cause I play as a Non-Nord and I don't see any non-nords in the Stormcloak ranks" Now that is technically correct but that really isn't an argument I will use.

You do realize I have never once said to you in all of these debates, "Join the Legion "

In terms of quest line, I support the Stormcloaks since you get to attack two cities. Though really I don't do the civil war, it's boring to me and poorly done. Just sparks a debate that many enjoy.

 

[Tyer032392]

This is more acceptable. Yet there is no note of runing from the city.
Also thuum tearing Toryg to pieces is lies, You as dovakhin are unable to do that without help from a daedric prince. So Ulfrics story is more plausible.

Or, something that you probably never even thought of. It is possible that seeing how Torygg had no training in the Thu'um at all, he was completely unprepared to face an opponent who knows the Thu'um. Correct me if I am wrong, but Ulfric used Fus Ro Dah to knock the high king to his knees, and before the high king could of even recovered from the shock, Ulfric's sword pierced his heart. Furthermore, it only takes a coward like Ulfric to use the Thu'um to stagger or incapacitate his opponent and kill him. Had Ulfric attacked first with his Sword and ensured with a melee for a few minutes than used the Thu'um, than my opinion would be different. However, seeing as Ulfric just used the Thu'um to incapacitate Toyrgg so that he in fact could not defend himself shows that Ulfric is not fit to be high king. In fact, there are several people who could challenge and defeat Ulfric if he does not use the Thu'um; however, with him using the Thu'um, the only people who can defeat Ulfric would the the Dovahkiin and Grey Beards.

You also state that Toyrgg was a weak king, but Toyrgg himself states that he knew himself that he was going to die that day, and had accepted his fate. It is the same thing as Martin Septim accepting his fate to die and become the Avatar of Akatosh to defeat Dagon.