Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
Well I can look for the info, but not on this play-through, seeing as I'm playing a slightly illiterate Nord... that and I'm not very good with English :sadface:

And sorry but if the Stormcloaks have only morality and whatnot to go on... I cannot back them - Morality and rights are ambiguous, and can't stand up to hard cold facts. because they are most the time diametrically opposed to rational logical though as they are based on Emotions and hotheaded snap decisions.

Emotional based decissions are not a way to lead a country.

I may be hotheaded myself, but I am willing to set my dislike for the empire aside, so long as they promise me hot Mer blood to cake my steel in.

You're a fun person to debate with. You don't shove opinions down other people's throats and you're open minded. It doesn't matter to me whether people join the Stormcloaks, Imperials or Thalmor.
I agree with you on the moral thing. Yes, morals are important - but they won't win a debate for you. Like you said, emotion based decisions are not a good way to lead a country.

And don't worry about the English. ;) I am from Europe myself so I make quite some errors when speaking English. I think your posts are clear and not difficult to read.
 

Gigapact

Lollygagging Milk Drinker (according to guards)
because they are most the time diametrically opposed to rational logical though as they are based on Emotions and hotheaded snap decisions.
Emotional based decissions are not a way to lead a country.


Wow you sound like me in real life. While some emotion is good, logic is best when leading a country. Acting purely on emotion clouds judgement and a country should NEVER be lead primarily on this. Everytime this comes up in real life, I always have to say this, and then people say, "Well.... I see that point... but that's heartless!"

No, it's not. It's the logical thing to do for this country to survive.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
So, I just wanted to say this, but I was reading through some of the pages, and people seem to get in a TON of arguments on here, holy pl***. But some people attack people for no reason.

I actually had an old profile from about a year ago, but I completely forgot all of the info to open it back up, hence me making a new one. But I remember when I was on that profile, I posted here, and I got attacked real bad, just because I agreed with the Empire. They kept telling me all of my stuff was incorrect... and I was like, "Umm... I'm getting this stuff from the actual game, so unless Bethesda is wrong for what they're writing in here, you're actually wrong."

I remember that actually made me stop coming on here because people were really rude. I see both points from both Stormcloaks and the Empire, and I love debates, but be nice people! It actually steers people from being on this forum and we need all the people we can get!

Just wanted to say that, don't attack me.

Sorry that happened to you. Sadly you get that here every now and then. People who really suck at debating, just switch to personal attacks after running out of arguments. It doesn't matter you show them pictures of a blue sky - it will always be green to them. And when you show them books and quotes that actually back you up, if multiple people join you in pointing out that the sky indeed is blue, they will tell you it is all interpretation and Imperial propaganda. Those people are useless to debate with. It is like talking to a wall, with the difference that a wall can't say stupid things back.
Things are usually nice here, but it depends on who comes here. Sometimes there is a douchebag majority. :p The past few pages there have been quite some people who felt the need to be rude to other people who did not deserve that. If you will read my history on this forum, you will see I am never the person who starts. However, I am often the person who ends it. If there is one thing I can't stand, it is a lack of respect. People can call me a moral crusader for it, but as soon as a person in here gets rude, I lose my patience instantly. And I will make sure my point got across and that person stops acting that way. I am very passionate when it comes down to things like this. Could be my past of being bullied, but I launch all my rockets when I see someone trying to intimidate or hurt people. ;)
 

Gigapact

Lollygagging Milk Drinker (according to guards)
So, I just wanted to say this, but I was reading through some of the pages, and people seem to get in a TON of arguments on here, holy pl***. But some people attack people for no reason.

I actually had an old profile from about a year ago, but I completely forgot all of the info to open it back up, hence me making a new one. But I remember when I was on that profile, I posted here, and I got attacked real bad, just because I agreed with the Empire. They kept telling me all of my stuff was incorrect... and I was like, "Umm... I'm getting this stuff from the actual game, so unless Bethesda is wrong for what they're writing in here, you're actually wrong."

I remember that actually made me stop coming on here because people were really rude. I see both points from both Stormcloaks and the Empire, and I love debates, but be nice people! It actually steers people from being on this forum and we need all the people we can get!

Just wanted to say that, don't attack me.

Sorry that happened to you. Sadly you get that here every now and then. People who really suck at debating, just switch to personal attacks after running out of arguments. It doesn't matter you show them pictures of a blue sky - it will always be green to them. And when you show them books and quotes that actually back you up, if multiple people join you in pointing out that the sky indeed is blue, they will tell you it is all interpretation and Imperial propaganda. Those people are useless to debate with. It is like talking to a wall, with the difference that a wall can't say stupid things back.
Things are usually nice here, but it depends on who comes here. Sometimes there is a douchebag majority. :p The past few pages there have been quite some people who felt the need to be rude to other people who did not deserve that. If you will read my history on this forum, you will see I am never the person who starts. However, I am often the person who ends it. If there is one thing I can't stand, it is a lack of respect. People can call me a moral crusader for it, but as soon as a person in here gets rude, I lose my patience instantly. And I will make sure my point got across and that person stops acting that way. I am very passionate when it comes down to things like this. Could be my past of being bullied, but I launch all my rockets when I see someone trying to intimidate or hurt people. ;)



I agree with everything you said, and I'm sorry about your past, that's bullplops. No one ever deserves that. When I was in middle school, I saw that happen to my friend, and I stood up for her, and the girl actually almost beat me up. I don't get people.

But, anyhow, at least it's in the past :D
 
Well I'm not very good at the whole debateing if I can't even bring up facts to support my claim huh? ^^;

But I still hate the Battle-Borns, now againts those guys I can bring up a lot...
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
Well I'm not very good at the whole debateing if I can't even bring up facts to support my claim huh? ^^;

But I still hate the Battle-Borns, now againts those guys I can bring up a lot...

You probably can. I don't know that much information about the game myself, but I learn a lot from reading other people's arguments. Bethsoft forums is also a good place. This Imperial/Stormcloak debate is on more websites than just this forum. :)

And I can't stand the Battle-Borns either.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Does no one think about what Wulf said in Morrowind? Maybe the destruction of the Empire is what he was going on about.
 

Papoy

DON'T EXPECT SPOILER WARNINGS FROM ME
Imperials are all weaklings.... stormcloacks are stronger, thats why i choosed imperials, for bigger chellange and each time when you are promoted you get nice piece of weapon or armour. When they put ya to the test, you have to kill a loads of bandits (and that gives you much on your lvl), while stormcloacks wants you to kill only one stupid ice wrath.
In the end war (no matter wich side you have chosen) Tallius admits that Thalmor controlls the emperor.
Stormcloacks are bloodsuckers. I can prove that by saying that galmar said ENOUGH, after jarl boulgrf the greater said: "And these men lying out there dead, have once called you a friend... what about their familys?" (something like that). Stormcloacks love to kill,... I THINK :/
 

Lord of Blood

High King Ulfric
We 'll show those faithless dogs who this land belongs to..


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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
If you will read my history on this forum, you will see I am never the person who starts. However, I am often the person who ends it.

You left out the part where you summon me to end it. :p

In the end war (no matter wich side you have chosen) Tallius admits that Thalmor controlls the emperor.

At the end of the Imperial questline, you hear talks of an upcoming war between the Empire and Thalmor. Well you hear about a second round of fighting before you start the Civil war quest line.

Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes. - General Tullius

"He wasn't always a self-serving ego-maniac. He fought in the Imperial army in the War against the Dominion. But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Legate Rikke

"The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future." - Legate Rikke
 

setsua

New Member
I don't think Ulfric knows he is helping the Thalmor. He probably really thinks what he is doing is the very best for Skyrim. But the Thalmor dossier proves different. Here, you might want to take a look at this:

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval
Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran
Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.
Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.
Source: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

The Thalmor love the Rebellion. To them, it is a faction that weakens the Empire in its attempt to regain strength. It increases their chance at victory, because now the Empire has to fight the Stormcloaks and the Aldmeri Dominion. Ulfric probably isn't aware of that, but sadly that is the way it is going. Do you remember the Thalmor agents who were there during the execution? They were trying to save Ulfric. His death would mean the Empire could focus on the Thalmor again, which they didn't want.

You have to understand no one liked the White Gold Concordat. Even the Empire didn't want to ban Talos worship. But they had two choices: either fighting until the last soldier would get crushed, or signing a temporary peace treaty. The Aldmeri Dominion was much stronger than them. They couldn't possibly win, so carrying on meant death. The Thalmor would win the war and wipe the Empire off of the face of Nirn. The last banner against being completely invaded by the Aldmeri Dominion, would disappear. Because you know what happens when you lose a war? You lose everything. You are completely dependent on the mercy of your enemy because you don't have the strength to go against them anymore.

the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace, and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.
Source: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/great-war

If you sign a peace treaty, that gives you time to rebuild your forces. You can regain strength and make sure you're ready for the next round. And that is what the Empire is doing, and they are almost ready. At the moment you start the game, the Legion is already at the Aldmeri Dominion's border - ready to continue the fight. And you can choose: are you going to get your independence, weaken the Empire and thus strengthen the Dominion, standing on your own as a province? Is Ulfric's rebellion, which only exists within the Skyrim border, your big weapon against the Elves? If even the Empire had trouble defeating them, then why would Skyrim be able to do it alone?
You left out the part where you summon me to end it. :p



At the end of the Imperial questline, you hear talks of an upcoming war between the Empire and Thalmor. Well you hear about a second round of fighting before you start the Civil war quest line.

Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes. - General Tullius

"He wasn't always a self-serving ego-maniac. He fought in the Imperial army in the War against the Dominion. But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Legate Rikke

"The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future." - Legate Rikke

I wonder if we will see this happen when they make a new Elder Scrolls game.

Thou I have always been a high elf since morrowind, I am on the stormcloaks side. I want ulfric to win. If he wins my people win, if he loses then it will take much longer for man to be slaves of us mer. Thats how I'm RPing my character at least.

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Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
I don't think Ulfric knows he is helping the Thalmor. He probably really thinks what he is doing is the very best for Skyrim. But the Thalmor dossier proves different. Here, you might want to take a look at this:

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval
Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran
Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.
Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.
Source: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

The Thalmor love the Rebellion. To them, it is a faction that weakens the Empire in its attempt to regain strength. It increases their chance at victory, because now the Empire has to fight the Stormcloaks and the Aldmeri Dominion. Ulfric probably isn't aware of that, but sadly that is the way it is going. Do you remember the Thalmor agents who were there during the execution? They were trying to save Ulfric. His death would mean the Empire could focus on the Thalmor again, which they didn't want.

You have to understand no one liked the White Gold Concordat. Even the Empire didn't want to ban Talos worship. But they had two choices: either fighting until the last soldier would get crushed, or signing a temporary peace treaty. The Aldmeri Dominion was much stronger than them. They couldn't possibly win, so carrying on meant death. The Thalmor would win the war and wipe the Empire off of the face of Nirn. The last banner against being completely invaded by the Aldmeri Dominion, would disappear. Because you know what happens when you lose a war? You lose everything. You are completely dependent on the mercy of your enemy because you don't have the strength to go against them anymore.

the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace, and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.
Source: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/great-war

If you sign a peace treaty, that gives you time to rebuild your forces. You can regain strength and make sure you're ready for the next round. And that is what the Empire is doing, and they are almost ready. At the moment you start the game, the Legion is already at the Aldmeri Dominion's border - ready to continue the fight. And you can choose: are you going to get your independence, weaken the Empire and thus strengthen the Dominion, standing on your own as a province? Is Ulfric's rebellion, which only exists within the Skyrim border, your big weapon against the Elves? If even the Empire had trouble defeating them, then why would Skyrim be able to do it alone?
You left out the part where you summon me to end it. :p



At the end of the Imperial questline, you hear talks of an upcoming war between the Empire and Thalmor. Well you hear about a second round of fighting before you start the Civil war quest line.

Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes. - General Tullius

"He wasn't always a self-serving ego-maniac. He fought in the Imperial army in the War against the Dominion. But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Legate Rikke

"The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future." - Legate Rikke

I wonder if we will see this happen when they make a new Elder Scrolls game.

Thou I have always been a high elf since morrowind, I am on the stormcloaks side. I want ulfric to win. If he wins my people win, if he loses then it will take much longer for man to be slaves of us mer. Thats how I'm RPing my character at least.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk

So you want the Stormcloaks to win because you know they're in the wrong? You know it will help your faction, and therefor you 'support' the Stormcloaks. Which means, technically speaking, in this thread you're on the Imperial side because you agree with their arguments against the Stormcloaks. But you prefer them because you want to see them fall...

...interesting...
giphy.gif
 

setsua

New Member
So you want the Stormcloaks to win because you know they're in the wrong? You know it will help your faction, and therefor you 'support' the Stormcloaks. Which means, technically speaking, in this thread you're on the Imperial side because you agree with their arguments against the Stormcloaks. But you prefer them because you want to see them fall...

...interesting...
giphy.gif

Aye ;) if I help ulfric win we can crush what little is left of the Empire. While Ulfric is building skyrim and they have there moot*not sure if that is how it's spelled lol* We will surround them and crush them. Both Empire and the stormcloaks will be very weak in the end if Ulfric wins. It would take a very long to build up Skyrim after the war, pluse ulfric and the stormcloaks are very mean to the other races in turn will hurt him even more in the end. This civil war is a victory for my faction regardless. Unless they both learn to get along and merge there forces then ya we will probly be in a tie.

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I wonder if we will see this happen when they make a new Elder Scrolls game.

Thou I have always been a high elf since morrowind, I am on the stormcloaks side. I want ulfric to win. If he wins my people win, if he loses then it will take much longer for man to be slaves of us mer. Thats how I'm RPing my character at least.

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There is an Altmer (High Elf) Legate in the Rift. He is against the Aldmeri Dominion.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Legate_Fasendil

Your people don't technically win, unless you're a Thalmor. The Thalmor conduct racial purges, slaughtering many Altmer and Bosmer.

"Back in 42 I was stationed in Hammerfell, on leave in Sentinel, trying to track down some refugee relatives who had fled persecution in Alinor. Suddenly an explosion of magic in the refugee quarter. Thalmor mages were attacking the Altmer dissidents who were resisting with magic of their own. I ran to the scene with other Legionaries who where stationed there, but the entire quarter was a smoking ruin by the time we arrived. Everyone was dead. Wholesale slaughter. The Dominion, not content with killing dissidents at home, came to Hammerfell to finish the job." - Fasendil

 

setsua

New Member
I'm with the Thalmor of course. Thanks for that info :) I will make sure he gets a long nice sleep hehe.

Thanks for the tip, here is some gold* hands over 10,000 gold*

Yhou in my RP I'm not married yet, I could meet a nord woman that will change me. But I don't think so thou.

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I'm with the Thalmor of course. Thanks for that info :) I will make sure he gets a long nice sleep hehe.

Thanks for the tip, here is some gold* hands over 10,000 gold*

Yhou in my RP I'm not married yet, I could meet a nord woman that will change me. But I don't think so thou.

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The Thalmor benefit from a long drawn out conflict. They don't want either side to win, since the longer it draws out the weaker the Empire becomes.

Sounds like an interesting RP. I once had an Imperial who would travel with the executioner from Solitude, clearing out forts and caves. Bringing the Emperor's justice to the lawless.

tumblr_mh012mf1ds1s3wb20o1_500.gif
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
44772.jpg
setsua said:
I wonder if we will see this happen when they make a new Elder Scrolls game.

Thou I have always been a high elf since morrowind, I am on the stormcloaks side. I want ulfric to win. If he wins my people win, if he loses then it will take much longer for man to be slaves of us mer. Thats how I'm RPing my character at least.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk​
There is an Altmer (High Elf) Legate in the Rift. He is against the Aldmeri Dominion.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Legate_Fasendil

Your people don't technically win, unless you're a Thalmor. The Thalmor conduct racial purges, slaughtering many Altmer and Bosmer.

"Back in 42 I was stationed in Hammerfell, on leave in Sentinel, trying to track down some refugee relatives who had fled persecution in Alinor. Suddenly an explosion of magic in the refugee quarter. Thalmor mages were attacking the Altmer dissidents who were resisting with magic of their own. I ran to the scene with other Legionaries who where stationed there, but the entire quarter was a smoking ruin by the time we arrived. Everyone was dead. Wholesale slaughter. The Dominion, not content with killing dissidents at home, came to Hammerfell to finish the job." - Fasendil


Hmmm. Well this depends. While I do not blame the Dominion for being angry about the past and indeed, they do rule over the Dominion, this does not make every High Elf about they or their cause. Everyone has the Illusion of choice.

Thing is, someone who is of good heart would know the difference and not deny the choice. Which is where my conflict with the Thalmor begins. They're too meddlesome and imposing.

The Empire may after all, be the only thing capable of returning some measure of sanity to Tamriel.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Hmmm. Well this depends. While I do not blame the Dominion for being angry about the past and indeed, they do rule over the Dominion, this does not make every High Elf about they or their cause. Everyone has the Illusion of choice.

They're not angry at the past. They're under the disillusion that Tamriel belongs to them, they conduct racial purges. Gained control through deception and assassination, used coups and assets. This isn't the grand Thalmor of the past, that believed man was too young to be given complete power. This is the Thalmor of the Fourth Era, the group that believes in racial purity. The most pure of bloodlines are only allowed to live. Eras of races mixing, elves marrying men, men marrying elves. If you have the slightest difference of bloodline, you die.

Their arrogance is why they will never rule, and it is why they will always be defeated. They have such high opinions of themselves, this superior ideology. They will always make the mistake of underestimating the determination of the Imperial Legion.

The Empire has a knack for survival and the ability to adapt, just when you think you've destroyed it. You suddenly get hit ten times harder than you hit them and the Empire returns stronger than ever.

"But they are no match for Legionnaires. You are the best and the brightest warriors in Tamriel. Professional soldiers, fearless and devastating."

The Second and Third Empire were far greater than all three of the Aldmeri Dominion's.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
Well folks, it's been a real honor being on here and debating with everyone, truly. I want to give a special *Thank You* to everyone who helped me out along the way. Been one hell of a journey. Best wishes to all of you.

Road ends here for me, least for the foreseeable. 2014 hasn't been too bad thus far however there are enough things needs doing around here.

We've got to part now you and I, but don't be sad, my friends. The Thalmor is working *tirelessly* to rebuild this great nation, the Dominion, into what it once was... a place the Elves and Khajits can truly call home. The values of our past, shall be the foundations of our future. And those who oppose us, shall be... "removed" forever.

Until next time, this is NENALATA, "Last King Queen of the Ayleids" :p signing off.
 
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