Ysgramor, Hero or Murderous Savage?

[High King of Skyrim]

There were countless ways to deal with the Night of Tears and he took the most idiotic, murderous path. He started the extinction of the Snow Elves. You shouldn't kill off an entire race just for razing a city.

To say it was the most murderous path is stating the obvious. Idiotic? In what way was assuring the survival of the human race in Skyrim idiotic? Remember too, that there was no diplomacy to pursue as the Atmoran settlers had established no government to consult, no Empire to keep order. Before Ysgramor there were only the odd settlers, farmers and families living in peace with the Snow Elves until that fateful night. When the Elves attacked Sarthal, was it not reasonable for Ysgramor to assume that war was suddenly upon them? I can't recall any Snow Elf ambassador yelling to Ysgramor and his two sons as they fled " Sorry about that, now we have murdered your kin, let's resume our peacefull coexistence". He acted as any man would have had they been in his shoes. In war, until the enemy surrenders, there can be no peace. If the Snow Elves were too stubborn or stupid to do so before the body count rose to drastic numbers, then are they not also partly responsible for their eventual demise? Do not forget the role the Dwemer played too, like many elves before them, their treachery was worse than even that of the Snow elves. Is it any wonder Ysgramor believed total annihilation was necessary to assure the Night Of Tears never happened again? Was he just supposed to take their 'word' for it? Please. By the way, your statement was wrong in that he never killed of an entire race, they still survive to this day, barely.

 

[Majir-Dar]

I agree with most of what you said but the Snow Elves only have 1 descendant left, and maybe a village or 2. They can no longer be what they used to be. You that both sides were afraid of each other. The Snow Elves didn't apologize because their lives were in danger as well. The Night of Tears only occurred because the Atmorans were hoarding power that they shouldn't even know existed. I believe that both sides were in the wrong. If Ysgromer had failed than we could probably assume that the Snow Elves would persecute other humans that had settled in their land.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

I agree with most of what you said but the Snow Elves only have 1 descendant left, and maybe a village or 2. They can no longer be what they used to be. You that both sides were afraid of each other. The Snow Elves didn't apologize because their lives were in danger as well. The Night of Tears only occurred because the Atmorans were hoarding power that they shouldn't even know existed. I believe that both sides were in the wrong. If Ysgromer had failed than we could probably assume that the Snow Elves would persecute other humans that had settled in their land.

Wrong yet again. Both sides were not afraid. Only one, the one you seem to stand for, the historically treacherous Mer. The Atmorans named this vast new land Merith, in honour of it's traditional inhabitants. Embracing and respecting the existing culture.

hen at last the rightful claim of Saarthal had been retaken, driving the murderous elves back to their lofty cities, did great Ysgramor turn and let loose the fearsome war cry that echoed across all the oceans. The Five Hundred who yet stood joined in the ovation for the victory and the lament for their fallen peers. It was said to be heard on the distant and chilling green shores of Atmora, and the ancestors knew their time had come to cross the seas. From Songs of the Return.

 

[Majir-Dar]

I agree with most of what you said but the Snow Elves only have 1 descendant left, and maybe a village or 2. They can no longer be what they used to be. You that both sides were afraid of each other. The Snow Elves didn't apologize because their lives were in danger as well. The Night of Tears only occurred because the Atmorans were hoarding power that they shouldn't even know existed. I believe that both sides were in the wrong. If Ysgromer had failed than we could probably assume that the Snow Elves would persecute other humans that had settled in their land.

Wrong yet again. Both sides were not afraid. Only one, the one you seem to stand for, the historically treacherous Mer. The Atmorans named this vast new land Merith, in honour of it's traditional inhabitants. Embracing and respecting the existing culture.

hen at last the rightful claim of Saarthal had been retaken, driving the murderous elves back to their lofty cities, did great Ysgramor turn and let loose the fearsome war cry that echoed across all the oceans. The Five Hundred who yet stood joined in the ovation for the victory and the lament for their fallen peers. It was said to be heard on the distant and chilling green shores of Atmora, and the ancestors knew their time had come to cross the seas. From Songs of the Return.

I don't care how you try to justify it, they took more lives than vengeance demanded. They stole a land that wasn't theirs. The Dwemer helped but Ysgromer started the annihilation of a proud, prosperous race.

 

[jarif]

Well its their fault. Nords and Snow elf were living peacefully and suddenly feared Humans faster reproduction cycle and so they were over populating them. Their solution was to slaughter them, no? So Ysmorgor came with his 500 companions to bring them to justice, the snow elves being the sore losers went to the dwemer for help leading to further humiliation.

 

[Majir-Dar]

Well its their fault. Nords and Snow elf were living peacefully and suddenly feared Humans faster reproduction cycle and so they were over populating them. Their solution was to slaughter them, no? So Ysmorgor came with his 500 companions to bring them to justice, the snow elves being the sore losers went to the dwemer for help leading to further humiliation.

Actually the Snow Elves attacked because the Atmorans were hoarding the Eye of Magnus a powerful artifact that can wipe out whole realms.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

I agree with most of what you said but the Snow Elves only have 1 descendant left, and maybe a village or 2. They can no longer be what they used to be. You that both sides were afraid of each other. The Snow Elves didn't apologize because their lives were in danger as well. The Night of Tears only occurred because the Atmorans were hoarding power that they shouldn't even know existed. I believe that both sides were in the wrong. If Ysgromer had failed than we could probably assume that the Snow Elves would persecute other humans that had settled in their land.

Wrong yet again. Both sides were not afraid. Only one, the one you seem to stand for, the historically treacherous Mer. The Atmorans named this vast new land Merith, in honour of it's traditional inhabitants. Embracing and respecting the existing culture.

hen at last the rightful claim of Saarthal had been retaken, driving the murderous elves back to their lofty cities, did great Ysgramor turn and let loose the fearsome war cry that echoed across all the oceans. The Five Hundred who yet stood joined in the ovation for the victory and the lament for their fallen peers. It was said to be heard on the distant and chilling green shores of Atmora, and the ancestors knew their time had come to cross the seas. From Songs of the Return.

I don't care how you try to justify it, they took more lives than vengeance demanded. They stole a land that wasn't theirs. The Dwemer helped but Ysgromer started the annihilation of a proud, prosperous race.

Don't you dare quote a proud Nord and in the same breath, insult his kin. What happened to your precious Snow Elves was indeed a tragedy. It was rendered upon themselves by themselves....we reap what we sow. Skyrim belongs to the "Nords"!.

 

[Ivory]

Still believe the Atmorans were honorable despite slaughtering children as well eh? You try so hard to sore the Snow elven name (Of which yes they did a terrible thing as I've said many times.) Yet you continue to refuse evidence I've pointed out. I am still waiting for a rebuttal on my information that shows that even their women and children were in danger of the Atmoran people.

 

[Cren Reon]

Genocide isn't a clear winner to stop war. That's like saying all Germans should have been wiped out due to both WW's having to mainly focus with them. This logic of "Wipe them out, problem solved" is the most backwards thought I'd ever heard of. It's one thing to say war can cause genocide, but to say its the only real way to win a war? Well then crap, the only 'wars' that have been won in the world were the native americans being forced out..or any instance like it.. Oh wait that was genocide too.

Your example is an almost isolated one. There are many countries that have gone to war with one another and have given peace. Does that mean everyone is friendly 24/7? No but there is peace. Look at the UN, doesn't that prove something? Honestly, Tiber Septim would never have slaughtered an entire race. He brought the entirety of Tamriel into peace through war yes, but it was a war won without one sided genocide. Had he followed Ysgramor's example, he would have failed and there would be no Septim Era at all.

In fact, typing that out now, doesn't that make Ysgramor and Tiber Septim polar opposites?

Ww1 did not in any way focus on Germany. They didn't start it. I hate it when people pin that on Germany

 

[High King of Skyrim]

Still believe the Atmorans were honorable despite slaughtering children as well eh? You try so hard to sore the Snow elven name (Of which yes they did a terrible thing as I've said many times.) Yet you continue to refuse evidence I've pointed out. I am still waiting for a rebuttal on my information that shows that even their women and children were in danger of the Atmoran people.

Still believe the Atmorans were honorable despite slaughtering children as well eh? You try so hard to sore the Snow elven name (Of which yes they did a terrible thing as I've said many times.) Yet you continue to refuse evidence I've pointed out. I am still waiting for a rebuttal on my information that shows that even their women and children were in danger of the Atmoran people.

Still find difficulty proving the Atmorans slaughtered children? Didn't happen mate. Your opinion is your own, just don't create false lore to support your beliefs. It insults both of our intelligence if you do.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

Genocide isn't a clear winner to stop war. That's like saying all Germans should have been wiped out due to both WW's having to mainly focus with them. This logic of "Wipe them out, problem solved" is the most backwards thought I'd ever heard of. It's one thing to say war can cause genocide, but to say its the only real way to win a war? Well then crap, the only 'wars' that have been won in the world were the native americans being forced out..or any instance like it.. Oh wait that was genocide too.

Your example is an almost isolated one. There are many countries that have gone to war with one another and have given peace. Does that mean everyone is friendly 24/7? No but there is peace. Look at the UN, doesn't that prove something? Honestly, Tiber Septim would never have slaughtered an entire race. He brought the entirety of Tamriel into peace through war yes, but it was a war won without one sided genocide. Had he followed Ysgramor's example, he would have failed and there would be no Septim Era at all.

In fact, typing that out now, doesn't that make Ysgramor and Tiber Septim polar opposites?

Ww1 did not in any way focus on Germany. They didn't start it. I hate it when people pin that on Germany

Exactly, wasn't it the world against the Ottoman Empire? Anyhow, your opinion is biased in my opinion and therefor irrelevant, sorry!

 

[Ivory]

Still find difficulty proving the Atmorans slaughtered children? Didn't happen mate. Your opinion is your own, just don't create false lore to support your beliefs. It insults both of our intelligence if you do.

Please read back. If not, I won't humor you further as you've only proven your lack of respect for the proof I've provided.

 

[Cren Reon]

Actually the Snow Elves attacked because the Atmorans were hoarding the Eye of Magnus a powerful artifact that can wipe out whole realms.

Please prove that they were hoarding they eye. Because they we not

 

[jarif]

Still believe the Atmorans were honorable despite slaughtering children as well eh? You try so hard to sore the Snow elven name (Of which yes they did a terrible thing as I've said many times.) Yet you continue to refuse evidence I've pointed out. I am still waiting for a rebuttal on my information that shows that even their women and children were in danger of the Atmoran people.

I'v been trying to answer to this and I know now. You think the women and children were going to be peaceful about it if they weren't killed.
Snow elf: Hey its you! Your the one that killed my father and I forgive you because they were assholes. *derp face*
Nord: Yup. Son yes I did.

Look if they didn't slaughter them then they would be bound by hatred and revenge, eventually they will reproduce and form a coup to eradicate them thus creating a cycle of hatred and war. We wouldn't another war do we? That could be potentially be worst than the last one.

 

[Cren Reon]

Please read back. If not, I won't humor you further as you've only proven your lack of respect for the proof I've provided.

What "respect" does he owe you? This forum based on opinion and everyone here acts like they are entitled

 

[Bulfrek]

They lived in peace before the Falmer chose to attack the Nords in their sleep. I can hardly blame Ysgamor for giving the Falmer what they had coming to them.

 

[Ivory]

Still believe the Atmorans were honorable despite slaughtering children as well eh? You try so hard to sore the Snow elven name (Of which yes they did a terrible thing as I've said many times.) Yet you continue to refuse evidence I've pointed out. I am still waiting for a rebuttal on my information that shows that even their women and children were in danger of the Atmoran people.

I'v been trying to answer to this and I know now. You think the women and children were going to be peaceful about it if they weren't killed.
Snow elf: Hey its you! Your the one that killed my father and I forgive you because they were assholes. *derp face*
Nord: Yup. Son yes I did.

Look if they didn't slaughter them then they would be bound by hatred and revenge, eventually they will reproduce and form a coup to eradicate them thus creating a cycle of hatred and war. We wouldn't another war do we? That could be potentially be worst than the last one.

You mean like the endless centuries of war that have still plagued Tamriel until Septim conquered all? At least until a Daedric lord ruined it all via The Oblivion Crisis. Tiber Septim's existence and strength proved that peace is possible. It's funny how people seem to forget that.

What "respect" does he owe you? This forum based on opinion and everyone here acts like they are entitled

He does not owe me anything. He does however owe the lore I've provided respect. The only people I've seen who try to be entitled here are people who believe in lore that doesn't exist. Don't be so disrespectful to this community. It's far better than most forums and nobody is making you stay.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

The point is, they would have eventually regrouped and more wars would have come. With possible future loss of even more life on both sides . If they didnt want casualties they could've chosen not to attack at all.

That still doesn't justify the destruction of an entire people. Assuming every Falmer supported the attack on Saarthal is unrealistic, and so condemning their entire race to death was foolish. While I hate bringing real life situations into this, but I feel as if I must. Japan attacked the USA in WWII. The allied forces won, would it have been justified to kill every single Japanese man, woman and child for their attack? USA already had locked away every Japanese American back then and to this day is seen as a horrible thing that was done to their people. We act with strong belief to never allow that to happen again. Who's to say that the Snow Elves would still be their enemies? America and Japan are practically brother countries now, with Japan heavily influenced with American cultures.

I know this is after the fact, but I can't help myself. Your reference here is a bad one to make, in my opinion. The Japanese generally were very fanatical during WW2, and they were training their civilians to handle Katanas and to defend their homeland no matter what against Allied Invaders. Make no mistake, if we had not devised weapons of mass destruction and intimidated the Japanese into surrender, the invasion would have been VERY bloody, and Soldiers might have found themselves fighting off bonzai charges from every civilian they came across. While we are bros now, back then it was a very different story.

 

[Ivory]

I know this is after the fact, but I can't help myself. Your reference here is a bad one to make, in my opinion. The Japanese generally were very fanatical during WW2, and they were training their civilians to handle Katanas and to defend their homeland no matter what against Allied Invaders. Make no mistake, if we had not devised weapons of mass destruction and intimidated the Japanese into surrender, the invasion would have been VERY bloody, and Soldiers might have found themselves fighting off bonzai charges from every civilian they came across. While we are bros now, back then it was a very different story.

If you'd like, I'd like to discuss real world references in PM. You've peaked my interest in your point of view. Up to you though. Sorry, I'm a history lover and a geek about this kinda stuff

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I know this is after the fact, but I can't help myself. Your reference here is a bad one to make, in my opinion. The Japanese generally were very fanatical during WW2, and they were training their civilians to handle Katanas and to defend their homeland no matter what against Allied Invaders. Make no mistake, if we had not devised weapons of mass destruction and intimidated the Japanese into surrender, the invasion would have been VERY bloody, and Soldiers might have found themselves fighting off bonzai charges from every civilian they came across. While we are bros now, back then it was a very different story.

If you'd like, I'd like to discuss real world references in PM. You've peaked my interest in your point of view. Up to you though. Sorry, I'm a history lover and a geek about this kinda stuff

I don't know a lot about it, I've just read a little. I told you just about everything I know about it in that one post. And no need to apologize. I understand.