Can't Decide between Stormcloaks or Imperials...

[DrunkenMage]

And actually that isn't in the Bear of Markarth.

"This was our land. We were here first. Then the Nords came and put chains on us. Forbid us from worshipping our gods." - Madanach

 

[Mookie]

Imperial propaganda? The book makes no mention of the Civil War which would suggest it was written during Ulfric's imprisonment. You class something as propaganda due to the author's race, doesn't mean his political views are that of the Empire. In his second book he doesn't write highly about the Imperial Legion, since he doesn't make the Empire look perfect does that make it Stormcloak propaganda?

It is imperial propaganda, created to be a book equivalent of "Nords arrise!" to mantain the discussion as a gray area.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It is imperial propaganda, created to be a book equivalent of "Nords arrise!" to mantain the discussion as a gray area.

No it's not. It has nothing to due with the Civil War, but written about the Markarth Incident, no mention of Civil war is placed in the book, that author wrote two books, neither mention a Civil war.

 

[Mookie]

No it's not. It has nothing to due with the Civil War, but written about the Markarth Incident, no mention of Civil war is placed in the book, that author wrote two books, neither mention a Civil war.

It is a book designed and created to attack Ulfrics personality and spread libel. So there is no need to talk about the civil war since what he is acused of doesnt hapen during civil war but before.
Ulfric killed everyone in Markhart, Nords and Bretons, only those who fought with him remained. How are there any bretons in the Markarth today? How did the Nepo the Nose survive if everyone was slaughtered? How is it that city isnt an empty ghost town with a nord here and there, an equivalent of winterhold, instead it is a bustling mining city?

 

[Mookie]

And a small edit:
Not only to spread slander and libel but also to justify the Imperial breach of promise to Ulfric about free worship in that city and subsequent imprisonment not only of Ulfric but of all who witnessed empire promising and breaking the given promise.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It is a book designed and created to attack Ulfrics personality and spread libel. So there is no need to talk about the civil war since what he is acused of doesnt hapen during civil war but before.
Ulfric killed everyone in Markhart, Nords and Bretons, only those who fought with him remained. How are there any bretons in the Markarth today? How did the Nepo the Nose survive if everyone was slaughtered? How is it that city isnt an empty ghost town with a nord here and there, an equivalent of winterhold, instead it is a bustling mining city?

Happened over twenty years ago. It's counted as History & Lore, calling it Imperial propaganda when the same author writes about the Empire in not perfect light in his second book, that just removes the entire point of it being propaganda. You call it Imperial propaganda since it doesn't put Ulfric in perfect light and because of the race of the author. You wonder why people call Stormcloaks racist?

 

[DrunkenMage]

There is 'Imperial propaganda' within Skyrim but the Bear of Markarth is not it, the propaganda is towards the Thalmor and White-Gold Concordat with the Empire pretending they're enforcing and encouraging it and it's called 'The Talos Mistake'

The Talos Mistake
by Leonora Venatus
Imperial Liaison to the Aldmeri Dominion
Propaganda encouraging acceptance of the ban on the worship of Talos
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Talos_Mistake

 

[Mookie]

Happened over twenty years ago. It's counted as History & Lore, calling it Imperial propaganda when the same author writes about the Empire in not perfect light in his second book, that just removes the entire point of it being propaganda. You call it Imperial propaganda since it doesn't put Ulfric in perfect light and because of the race of the author. You wonder why people call Stormcloaks racist?

It has nothing to do with his race it has to do with what he says and the facts on the ground.


"Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up the names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "


So first every official was killed and then all of a sudden everyone is killed who didnt fight on Ulfrics side.
It is worthy to note that Ulfric used his, HIS, militia to retake the city. So Markarth residents were in the city, not with Ulfric, yet we see them nice and well, and city is full of people, whats more, there are more Bretons in Markarth than there are Nords.
And list goes on and on and on.
Before this it was just me arguing because I disliked the way you were pushing empire into everyones face. Now it isnt.

 

[Mookie]

There is 'Imperial propaganda' within Skyrim but the Bear of Markarth is not it, the propaganda is towards the Thalmor and White-Gold Concordat with the Empire pretending they're enforcing and encouraging it and it's called 'The Talos Mistake'

The Talos Mistake
by Leonora Venatus
Imperial Liaison to the Aldmeri Dominion
Propaganda encouraging acceptance of the ban on the worship of Talos
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Talos_Mistake

It is written in the same style, justifying why something was done. Bear justifies betrayal of Ulfric and his fighters by empire, and this justifies ban of Talos. Yeah sure, emperor baned talos because it is right, not because Thalmor demanded it.

And yeah, Ulfric is a self-centered bast... who didnt demand any gold, part in ownership of Cidhna mine or anything what was awailable to him, instead he asked for freedom of worship. How self-centered. Shame on him

 

[DrunkenMage]

What does Leonora Venatus has with Arrianus Arius, author of the bear?

Nothing, the author of the Bear of Markarth is also the author of the Madmen of the Reach. He's an Imperial Scholar, which indicates his race.

Leonora is a part of the Empire's Government, Imperial Liaison to the Aldmeri Dominion so basically like an Empire style Elenwen I would assume.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It has nothing to do with his race it has to do with what he says and the facts on the ground.


"Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up the names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "


So first every official was killed and then all of a sudden everyone is killed who didnt fight on Ulfrics side.
It is worthy to note that Ulfric used his, HIS, militia to retake the city. So Markarth residents were in the city, not with Ulfric, yet we see them nice and well, and city is full of people, whats more, there are more Bretons in Markarth than there are Nords.
And list goes on and on and on.
Before this it was just me arguing because I disliked the way you were pushing empire into everyones face. Now it isnt.

So the city should be empty after twenty years? Many people seen in the city were on Ulfric's side during the uprising. When the Forsworn took over many people had left the city, they did hold the city for two years, else the Jarl would be dead and wouldn't be able to even have asked Ulfric for aid. So people escaped the city during the Forsworn uprising. They aren't Bretons from High Rock, they're Reachmen and Forsworn who are held there and do Nord bidding because their King is being held hostage and used to conduct killings for the Silver-Bloods.

Edit: Why do you think an Imperial Agent was sent to Markarth to investigate the Silver-Bloods and their mine. Something isn't right within Markarth, it's found the Silver-Bloods saved the Forsworn King and held him hostage in the mine to keep the Forsworn and Reachmen under their control. Silver-Bloods being a very big supporter of... you know who, Ulfric.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

So Operation "Human Shield" of GTFO huh? Nah yeah Ulfric sounds like a cool guy to me total High King material.

sniff... sniff... is that sarcasm I'm detecting?

 

[DrunkenMage]

It is written in the same style, justifying why something was done. Bear justifies betrayal of Ulfric and his fighters by empire, and this justifies ban of Talos. Yeah sure, emperor baned talos because it is right, not because Thalmor demanded it.

And yeah, Ulfric is a self-centered bast... who didnt demand any gold, part in ownership of Cidhna mine or anything what was awailable to him, instead he asked for freedom of worship. How self-centered. Shame on him

It doesn't justify his betrayal, the Thalmor discovered what was happening and demanded the arrest of Ulfric and the Nord Militia or it was back to war, Igmund wasn't willing to risk the fragile treaty and had them arrested and handed over to the Imperial Legion when they returned and he was taken to an Imperial prison. The author was mistaken about the Empire allowing free worship, he was promised that by the Jarl hoping the Thalmor wouldn't find out. The Empire hadn't even returned or taken notice towards Skyrim, every focus was in Cyrodiil in the aftermath of the Great War.

You seem to think the author is pro Empire or something, he doesn't actually speak highly of the Empire. In fact in his second book it has this listed. "Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours."

 

[Mookie]

So the city should be empty after twenty years? Many people seen in the city were on Ulfric's side during the uprising. When the Forsworn took over many people had left the city, they did hold the city for two years, else the Jarl would be dead and wouldn't be able to even have asked Ulfric for aid. So people escaped the city during the Forsworn uprising. They aren't Bretons from High Rock, they're Reachmen and Forsworn who are held there and do Nord bidding because their King is being held hostage and used to conduct killings for the Silver-Bloods.

Edit: Why do you think an Imperial Agent was sent to Markarth to investigate the Silver-Bloods and their mine. Something isn't right within Markarth, it's found the Silver-Bloods saved the Forsworn King and held him hostage in the mine to keep the Forsworn and Reachmen under their control. Silver-Bloods being a very big supporter of... you know who, Ulfric.

How long was it since you know what hapened to winterhold ?
And you have a ghost town of 3 houses


And this is what Empire really wants, here it is said in Margrets journal:

"General Tullius is growing impatient, but I'll bring back the deed to Cidhna Mine. On my life, I won't allow a group of Stormcloak sympathizers to own the prison to the most notorious criminals of the Reach. They say no one escapes. Why? Is it really that secure?"


Many people have left? WHAAAT? Why? Didnt you say that they ruled peacefully and justly and it was only big bad Ulfric that ruined idila?
People dont run away from their homes for no reason, I know that from my family and war that hapened here.
So it is either that forsworn comited atrocities, or they didnt, but still doesnt explain why Nepo is alive, why a lot of other Bretons are alive, why are there older people in the city and etc..
Arent they suposed to be dead?
So the bear of markarth is a deed of propaganda.
Just like Talos mistake.

 

[Mookie]

It doesn't justify his betrayal, the Thalmor discovered what was happening and demanded the arrest of Ulfric and the Nord Militia or it was back to war, Igmund wasn't willing to risk the fragile treaty and had them arrested and handed over to the Imperial Legion when they returned and he was taken to an Imperial prison. The author was mistaken about the Empire allowing free worship, he was promised that by the Jarl hoping the Thalmor wouldn't find out. The Empire hadn't even returned or taken notice towards Skyrim, every focus was in Cyrodiil in the aftermath of the Great War.

You seem to think the author is pro Empire or something, he doesn't actually speak highly of the Empire. In fact in his second book it has this listed. "Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours."

"In 4E 176, the Great War ended with the Empire signing the White-Gold Concordat.[3] During this time, Igmund, son of the previous Jarl, took it upon himself to seek help from Ulfric Stormcloak in ousting the Reachmen invaders. He promised Ulfric that if he re-took the Reach, then Igmund as Jarl would allow free worship of Talos - an act that was recently outlawed at the end of the war.

Eventually, The Empire rescinded upon the agreement due to pressure from the Aldmeri Dominion, and Ulfric and his militia were expelled from the city and imprisoned shortly after. This betrayal left Ulfric bitter towards the Empire and is considered to be the initial conception of the Stormcloak rebellion.

And in that book that you are quoting, I read it before, something about forsworn, madmen of the reach right?
He quoted a Forsworn. In that book he is pro-forsworn, which sheds further light onto his "objectivity" and "neutrality" when writing a book about forsworn defeat.

So not only is he an imperial. who could be hired to write that book, but he is also a Forsworn simpatizer writing a book about Ulfric..
Neutral?

 

[DrunkenMage]

How long was it since you know what hapened to winterhold ?
And you have a ghost town of 3 houses


And this is what Empire really wants, here it is said in Margrets journal:

"General Tullius is growing impatient, but I'll bring back the deed to Cidhna Mine. On my life, I won't allow a group of Stormcloak sympathizers to own the prison to the most notorious criminals of the Reach. They say no one escapes. Why? Is it really that secure?"


Many people have left? WHAAAT? Why? Didnt you say that they ruled peacefully and justly and it was only big bad Ulfric that ruined idila?
People dont run away from their homes for no reason, I know that from my family and war that hapened here.
So it is either that forsworn comited atrocities, or they didnt, but still doesnt explain why Nepo is alive, why a lot of other Bretons are alive, why are there older people in the city and etc..
Arent they suposed to be dead?
So the bear of markarth is a deed of propaganda.
Just like Talos mistake.

They want the mine from the Silver-Bloods, who use Forsworn as assassins. Nepo's is alive because the Silver-Bloods spared him, he's being held there because his King is held hostage. "I've been playing this game for almost 20 years. Sending the young to their deaths. All in the name of the Forsworn. And I'm tired. So tired." He is the contact between Madanach and the rest of the Forsworn to conduct assassinations the Silver-Bloods want Madanach to order.

Many people are Silver-Blood supporters, people run from their homes when the city is being taken over to people you mistreated, many people also moved to Markarth in the recent years, others too old to wield a sword, others too young. The Silver-Bloods halted many executions and many 'Bretons' as you call them they're Reachmen who are Forsworn the Silver-Bloods need them to conduct their killings. The Silver-Bloods halted many executions of those who would benefit them.

 

[DrunkenMage]

"In 4E 176, the Great War ended with the Empire signing the White-Gold Concordat.[3] During this time, Igmund, son of the previous Jarl, took it upon himself to seek help from Ulfric Stormcloak in ousting the Reachmen invaders. He promised Ulfric that if he re-took the Reach, then Igmund as Jarl would allow free worship of Talos - an act that was recently outlawed at the end of the war.

Eventually, The Empire rescinded upon the agreement due to pressure from the Aldmeri Dominion, and Ulfric and his militia were expelled from the city and imprisoned shortly after. This betrayal left Ulfric bitter towards the Empire and is considered to be the initial conception of the Stormcloak rebellion.

And in that book that you are quoting, I read it before, something about forsworn, madmen of the reach right?
He quoted a Forsworn. In that book he is pro-forsworn, which sheds further light onto his "objectivity" and "neutrality" when writing a book about forsworn defeat.

So not only is he an imperial. who could be hired to write that book, but he is also a Forsworn simpatizer writing a book about Ulfric..
Neutral?

I didn't say he was Neutral, just he wasn't pro Empire. What is wrong with Forsworn sympathy? They have been mistreated very badly, they became the Forsworn after the Markarth incident.

That makes no mention the EMPIRE said he's free to worship Talos, a Nord Jarl isn't the EMPIRE, unless you have evidence of the Elder Council themselves breaching this treaty for Ulfric, then the Empire agreed to plops for Ulfric.

 

[Mookie]

They want the mine from the Silver-Bloods, who use Forsworn as assassins. Nepo's is alive because the Silver-Bloods spared him, he's being held there because his King is held hostage. "I've been playing this game for almost 20 years. Sending the young to their deaths. All in the name of the Forsworn. And I'm tired. So tired." He is the contact between Madanach and the rest of the Forsworn to conduct assassinations the Silver-Bloods want Madanach to order.

Many people are Silver-Blood supporters, people run from their homes when the city is being taken over to people you mistreated, many people also moved to Markarth in the recent years, others too old to wield a sword, others too young. The Silver-Bloods halted many executions and many 'Bretons' as you call them they're Reachmen who are Forsworn the Silver-Bloods need them to conduct their killings. The Silver-Bloods halted many executions of those who would benefit them.

What you are saying goes completely against everything what is described in the bear. You cant kill all the kids that can hold the sword, all the old, all the nords and all bretons and then have them nice and alive or alive and spared or anything like that. It is said they are dead, murdered by Ulfric, why are they alive?


They have no idea that Silver Bloods have anything to do with Forsworn, all they want is cidhna mine and they dont care how they get it.
As for Nepo, yes he is the contact, a very important person if I am not wrong and a prime targer for execution by Ulfric. But he lives ?

People move, that is right, but Winterhold couldnt recover in 200 years but markarth did in 20 :/
Really man?
Silver bloods use them for geting rid of oposition yes, but your General doesnt know that, they werent used like that when Ulfric took the city, and it wasnt silver bloods that Ulfric listened or helped, it was Igmund.

 

[Mookie]

I didn't say he was Neutral, just he wasn't pro Empire. What is wrong with Forsworn sympathy? They have been mistreated very badly, they became the Forsworn after the Markarth incident.

That makes no mention the EMPIRE said he's free to worship Talos, a Nord Jarl isn't the EMPIRE, unless you have evidence of the Elder Council themselves breaching this treaty for Ulfric, then the Empire agreed to pl*** for Ulfric.

Nothing, I wanted to join them once when playing with a breton necromancer. Weird, last I recall they and a hag wanted to burn me alive even after I saved their king.
And it is wrong when you are writing a book about someone who has undone something you like and have wanted to hapen. His work is biased and propaganda. You cant go against that unless you are willing to turn a blind eye to the facts.

Second, Jarl to be promised Ulfric that, but they also didnt let the empire in the city until they acknowledged and accepted the agreement.
Which also shows what they are after, they will accept everything to get to the silver. Once they secured the silver mines they magicaly remembered the WGC.
Yeah right...

 

[Anouck]

I didn't say he was Neutral, just he wasn't pro Empire. What is wrong with Forsworn sympathy? They have been mistreated very badly, they became the Forsworn after the Markarth incident.

I think the Stormcloaks are hypocrits here. They have a lot in common with the Forsworn. When speaking about 'Skyrim for the Nords' they should feel sympathy for them..