Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[LegateFasendil]

For surrendering WHEN he knew he would lose, despite the fact that Torygg, who Ulfric does not consider a true Nord or a true High King, chose to face the odds and die on his feet.

In other words, for only fighting when he knows he can win the fight, aka a bully.

Also, who doesn't fight when they know they can win? In combat its generally inadvisable to engage if you cannot win the engagement, so why fight when you know you will lose? You gain nothing from the fight, only a loss. So avoid the fights you'll lose and take the ones you'll win. Common knowledge battle strategy...

In this situation, I think Running would be the better strategy, or plain killing yourself. Personally because I think dying on your knees is basically the same as being a slave.

Yeah that dying on your knees thing sucks. Esp when there's lots of 'friends' around who could have helped you.

Ultimately, people just care about themselves. I understand what you mean about surrender, however a large part of it is prevention.

If you don't want to be in this situation, then don't be there. Exactly why if I was Torygg, I'd tell Ulfric to go straight to hell and I'll see you somewhere on the battle field.

Nothing is sacred anymore... your honor pfff... well I've got your honor right here MFer (whips out chrome 44).

 

[LegateFasendil]

For surrendering WHEN he knew he would lose, despite the fact that Torygg, who Ulfric does not consider a true Nord or a true High King, chose to face the odds and die on his feet.

In other words, for only fighting when he knows he can win the fight, aka a bully.

If a man attacked you with a sword, and you pulled a gun and shot him, would you consider yourself dishonorable? Or would you be the one who survived? A dead man can't do anything, an alive one can, so who survived is the victor.

In this case, Ulfric is the victor.

Also, who doesn't fight when they know they can win? In combat its generally inadvisable to engage if you cannot win the engagement, so why fight when you know you will lose? You gain nothing from the fight, only a loss. So avoid the fights you'll lose and take the ones you'll win. Common knowledge battle strategy...

Great. Then you understand why the Empire sued for peace with Thalmor and signed the WGC. Empire knew they couldn't win the war and as such, rather than lose the war they decided to sign the WGC so they could fight another day on their terms. Glad we can agree on something. See that wasn't so hard now was it?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Hadvar was there, as well as the rest of the imperials. Not one of them called him out either.

And if that is the case, you are using a definition of cowardice of your own creation, and therefore not only do you forge and deny Elder Scrolls lore to suit your needs, but you also invent definitions of real life words to suit your slandering needs.

Was doing some reading. Hadvar does kind of call him out.

"Ulfric rode right into our ambush with only a few bodyguards. He surrendered pretty meekly, too. So much for his death-or-glory reputation."

 

[LegateFasendil]

Hadvar was there, as well as the rest of the imperials. Not one of them called him out either.

And if that is the case, you are using a definition of cowardice of your own creation, and therefore not only do you forge and deny Elder Scrolls lore to suit your needs, but you also invent definitions of real life words to suit your slandering needs.

Was doing some reading. Hadvar does kind of call him out.

"Ulfric rode right into our ambush with only a few bodyguards. He surrendered pretty meekly, too. So much for his death-or-glory reputation."

Yeah but Torygg couldn't even be offered the chance to do his job. Either Ulfric's way or you have no honor and you're not a True Nord. hehehe

 

[Rimfaxe96]

I better watch out, there is one who can pwn me.

 

[DrunkenMage]

"How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim, if he can't even defend himself?" - Ulfric Stormcloak

 

[LegateFasendil]

"How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim, if he can't even defend himself?" - Ulfric Stormcloak

Oh pl*ps son. This is most epic drama I've ever seen!!!!!

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

For surrendering WHEN he knew he would lose, despite the fact that Torygg, who Ulfric does not consider a true Nord or a true High King, chose to face the odds and die on his feet.

In other words, for only fighting when he knows he can win the fight, aka a bully.

Also, who doesn't fight when they know they can win? In combat its generally inadvisable to engage if you cannot win the engagement, so why fight when you know you will lose? You gain nothing from the fight, only a loss. So avoid the fights you'll lose and take the ones you'll win. Common knowledge battle strategy...

In this situation, I think Running would be the better strategy, or plain killing yourself. Personally because I think dying on your knees is basically the same as being a slave.

Where ya' gunna' run? Yer' surrounded in the woods. And killing yourself is the DEFINITION of cowards way out. It was the END OF THE LINE. You run? You die for nothing. You surrender? You most likely die, but also get a chance to further your cause. You fight? You die for nothing. You kill yourself? You achieved the lowest of the low when it comes to cowardice, as well as died for nothing.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I think this True Nord/Cowardice debate is overshadowing the real issue at hand with Ulfric's surrender.

How about the fact that Ulfric was defeated in several weeks by a single Legion General with little resources, no reinforcements, poorly trained locally recruited militia and to top that the Thalmor running interference trying to protect Ulfric.

Tell me again why the Stormcloaks believe they can defeat the Aldmeri Dominion?

It may just be me... But I truly fail to see the logic that being commanded into the Second War with the Dominion by a man who has been captured twice during war against his enemies... And the only victories he made was either against native Reachmen with no military experience or was done by the Dragonborn who won't be heard from again after he/she defeats Alduin?

Seriously, someone explain that to me.

 

[Raijin]

I'm not saying it is okay, that Tortuer is obviously twisted in the head. As Hadvar mentions "These bastards call themselves Legionnaires?"

The issue is threatening to interrogate people just because they're Elves and the Thalmor are Elves too.

I'm glad you've mention that scenario with Hadvar because his lack of action causing the death of his fellow comrades was on the borderline of treason. He just stood there and done nothing while his prisoner slaughtered them to bits. How can he say those words when he refuses to give a helping hand to his own? What kind of Legionnaire just stands there while his prisoner is slaughtering his kind? Unbelievable!

Can you not blame the Nords for having xenophobic feeling against all elven kind? Especially considering the ancient history of Skyrim?

One particular elven kind wants to turn Nords into slaves and take over their lands entirely.What are the Dunmer's doing to help fight this tyranny? Not their fight? Of course it is! The Stormcloaks are not just fighting the Imperials but also the Thalmor.

Or Tullius is just a better commander. There is no evidence that the Dunmer are spying, the only thing Rolff has is the fact they're Elves.


Except the Stormcloaks don't know about that gear, they don't go into that tavern. I'm still trying to figure out how in the world heavy armor = obvious Imperial spy.

Do agents and spies keep faction armor around in your mind?

What other reason why the Dunmer has an Imperial legion shrine with an Imperial legion gear in his tavern inside the headquarters of the Stormcloaks if hes not an Imperial spy? Dunmers are joining the legion because they do not like the way Nords are treating them.


It doesn't make any sense. It's like having a secret nazi shrine with nazi officer uniforms inside of a Jewish temple. It just don't make any sense, and it's highly suspicious.

Why wouldn't he blame animals or possible bandits? Someone tells you about odd lights and people disppearing surrounding a Cave that has quite a history...

Are you going to think "Yeah, probably local superstitions and it's just some animals."

Or are you going to be all "Well obviously it is the 500 year old Necromancer Potema the Wolf Queen of Solitude, being raised up by a bunch of powerful Necromancers."

There is a difference Raijin. Dead people in front of you vs report of lights about a cave that has a dark past and villagers would have thousands of superstitions about.

Superstitions or not the evidence is right there and he failed to act out on it.

Law doesn't work like that, and it was a good political move by Ulfric. He invoked a Nordic tradition that would conflict with Imperial law, which is what the Stormcloaks are about. They're fighting for the 'Nord way of life'

If you always want to see it as Imperials trying to silence him, denying him fair trials... go for it.

We must have a geological differences because that is exactly how the law works in the United states. Not sure how things go in Australia. If you're going to professionally fight someone... prior to a fight both parties must sign an agreement, and a waver to avoid any legal conflicts, and to null any potential lawsuits from happening if an injury is caused, or even potential death.

While it can not be proven that Ulfric purposely baited Torygg to a duel by invoking the Nordic traditions taboo.. It is the ultimate choice that Troygg decided to make knowing that it was against Imperial law. He was so worried about Ulfric demanding for a moot to reconvene that he forgot that Imperial law overrules any traditions that the Nords has... This is what Ulfric is fighting for... to restore the Nordic traditions, worship of talos, and full independence.

Well since he was trying to steal the horse and flee into Hammerfell... If he had any family at home, he was obviously abandoning them.

He was thought to have been a Stormcloak, which is why you hear him pleading to Ralof to tell the Imperials he wasn't with them.

He also ran, so technically we didn't execute him for thievery. He was killed trying to flee processing. He uh... tripped... and fell on an arrow?

Imperial law is an Imperial law. What the man did by stealing the horse didn't warrant such such punishment by execution. You should know since you're a staunch Imperial supporter

 

[Raijin]

Lore wise you're there because of the will of the Divines. Bethesda wise, as the post below you mentioned it is to give you a blank slate to create whatever background you want.

Has nothing to do with the Empire being bad or evil.

Kind of reminds me of Terminator's teleportation scene. No wonder I was in prison clothes. The Imperials and General Tullius caught me roaming around Skyrim butt ass naked after the Divines teleported me down from whatever, and to defeat Alduin.

 

[Ivory]

We must have a geological differences because that is exactly how the law works in the United states. Not sure how things go in Australia. If you're going to professionally fight someone... prior to a fight both parties must sign an agreement, and a waver to avoid any legal conflicts, and to null any potential lawsuits from happening if an injury is caused, or even potential death.

A Professional fight between two men for entertainment/training isn't a fight for power over a country. Horrible comparison. Neither INTEND to kill the other. Ulfric had full intention to slaughter his opponent which makes your horrible comparison void.

 

[Raijin]

Feel I should address this more clearly.

There is a very big difference between the Windhelm issue and the Helgen torture issue. The Imperials aren't arresting and torturing just because of race. The Dunmer are being threatened with possible torture solely based on being elves.

Do you see a difference?

If the Stormcloaks have concern, why is Roff involved? You've been telling me he's just a drunken lout, not a Stormcloak. Not only are you contradicting, but you're defending a xenophobic racist and using 'Imperial spies' as an excuse for his actions.

You say the Legion gear is the reason, but how come it is not the reason we're being given?

Asking if he really believes that the Dark Elves are Imperial spies he will say "Wouldn't surprise me. They've done nothing to help in the fight for Skyrim's freedom. Those Thalmor are elves, too. I bet they're working together. Maybe I should round up some men and take us a few prisoners to interrogate." http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Rolff_Stone-Fist

You see, I wouldn't have so much an issue if the reason given wasn't the fact... That they're god damn elves.

1. The Stormcloaks are out fighting a war and probably aren't aware of what goes on in the city, and why is Rolff involved? He is not. Hes a supportive citizen who's keeping his eye out for potential spies in the city. He feels as a loyal citizen of windhelm that it is his job to do it.

2. Rolff probably isn't aware of the legion gear stored away in the Dunmers tavern, and probably isn't aware of the Imperial shrine either otherwise he would immediately summon Ulfric to the scene, and some serious questions will be answered.

As far as his quote goes.. It seems logic since the Dunmers would rather complain then to help aid the Nords to fight in the war. Why should the Nords care for the living conditions of the Dunmers when they refuse to contribute in the war effort? He has every right to be suspicious of them considering the fact that the evidence in their tavern is self-evident.

 

[Raijin]

Yet Torygg was a representative of the Empire, and what Ulfric did caused a Civil War, and is therefore treason.

Such a shame to have a High king, who is suppose to be the Representative of the Empire, not knowing their laws. Thinks that his Nordic tradition exceeds Imperial laws not realizing that it can create a civil war as a result.

 

[Raijin]

Oh pl*ps son. This is most epic drama I've ever seen!!!!!

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

LONG LIVE THE............

OOPS!

 

[Vatonage]

LONG LIVE THE............

OOPS!

So the Emperor was an airhead!

 

[Raijin]

LONG LIVE THE............

OOPS!

So the Emperor was an airhead!

I guess so

 

[Jeremius]

Also, who doesn't fight when they know they can win? In combat its generally inadvisable to engage if you cannot win the engagement, so why fight when you know you will lose? You gain nothing from the fight, only a loss. So avoid the fights you'll lose and take the ones you'll win. Common knowledge battle strategy...

In this situation, I think Running would be the better strategy, or plain killing yourself. Personally because I think dying on your knees is basically the same as being a slave.

Where ya' gunna' run? Yer' surrounded in the woods. And killing yourself is the DEFINITION of cowards way out. It was the END OF THE LINE. You run? You die for nothing. You surrender? You most likely die, but also get a chance to further your cause. You fight? You die for nothing. You kill yourself? You achieved the lowest of the low when it comes to cowardice, as well as died for nothing.

It was a joke. In a warrior culture, just because you face death with dignity in surrender does not make surrender a palatable option. Sometimes the act itself is cowardly and distasteful.

That is, IF the Nordic people are the warrior culture they claim to be.

 

[Ivory]

Seems Ulfric is weaker than you stormcloaks think.

 

[Jeremius]

Seems Ulfric is weaker than you stormcloaks think.

This does not count, the guy in the video is using Daedric Armor.