Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Mr Forz

I'm helping. Mostly.
That's not for a decent sword. A steel sword is decent, if not actually quite good. Yet, what was wanted was a royal looking sword, you know, another semblance of symbol to hide behind along with all the trinkets and stuff from Nord origins to attract the masses. Thu'um, Jagged Crown. The man already prepared himself for the throne. It's a real comedy.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I'll reply to the rest of it later, have to go out. But, I'll quickly do this one.

That Tiber's a bad man, letting Morrowind preserve their self-governance and avoiding an invasion that would've cost thousands of lives. From a strategic view, he left a massive Imperial print on Morrowind with Hlaalu and got dibs on all their ebony and other minerals. Not necessarily on topic, but who exactly did Tiber enslave?

Tiber enslaved his enemies.

The Skyrim generals joined their rank and file in Tiber Septim's army; the High Rock battlemage command was summarily executed and the captive Bretons imprisoned or sold into slavery.
- Battle of Sancre Tor
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
What she truly is? A Vampire? There are many of those within the Empire, you could say they run the Empire.

And theirs nothing wrong with that concept?

Forgive me, I misread the sentence on UESP. However, the tens of thousands of people was referring to were the Imperial citizens and soldiers killed before and after the Civil war.
But who did Ulfric viciously slaughtered? Markarth doesn't count because he was hired by the Empire to retake back the reach. How many Stormcloak soilders died just so that the Imperials could once again take charge of the reach? You ungrateful imperial bastards should be thankful.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
So let's say the war does break out soon after Titus's death and it probably lasts around a decade, and so the Empire is preoccupied. How does Skyrim get rebuilt then?

Much of the Empire continues to function normally even while at war, unless the Empire is completely invaded. Think of the Empire as a large machine that if it stops, it breaks apart. The Military is one cog, while there are hundreds and thousands of other moving parts.

Trade still happens, farmers still farm. Look at the Civil War, there are still people working normally. Even if it has slowed down. The Jarls aren't fighting, they still keep rule over their Holds. Civilians who aren't in the Military don't just stop everything and stare at the ground. There are various construction guilds under the Empire, the Legion isn't creating an invasion force in Skyrim. So the demand on Skyrim's natural resources won't be as high.

If they were doing something along those lines then the Dominion wouldn't be able throw money around funding bandits to screw with the Empire.

That only hurts normal trade, and they could do the same to the Empire. You're forgetting that the Dominion control Elsweyr, and in turn control the skooma trade. They also have slavery, and unlike the Empire the Thalmor rule through fear and oppression. I doubt they even need to pay their soldiers.

Unlike in the Empire where private citizens can own mines, farms, mills etc. I'd say the Thalmor most likely control everything.

There are countless things you could spend money on for your military, so being able to fund some unorganized terror group who only want ONE portion of Skyrim would really suprise me. We don't underestimate the Dominion, the Dominion underestimates us. Both of us actually.

They tend to fund people who operate around one area. The Reach is the source of Skyrim's wealth, it is the largest silver mine in the entire province. The mountains would also be home to gold, gems, iron etc. I'm not sure why it would surprise you, since both the Legion and Stormcloaks see the strategic value of the Reach.

That "unorganized terror group" controls many of the roads, and trade routes. When the Stormcloaks take over, the Jarl mentions he will be requesting a lot of reinforcements to simply hold onto Markarth.

"No mean feat," and being a vampire it probably wasn't by normal means. But yes, it's possible to get to Skyrim from Alinor. Even easier to get to Cyrodiil.

Yeah, and they're in Cyrodiil. They spread like a plague.

Exactly, so why would Motierre go to all that trouble? This will be no simple succession coming up.

Because the Empire is threatening to fall apart under the inaction of Mede? Who knows.

In what way does the WGC affect everyone? Motierrie doesn't seem like a Talos worshipper, or someone who would care too much about Hammerfell. Did he maybe have a buddy in the Blades or something?

Thalmor Justiciars, and Talos was very important to nearly everyone in Cyrodiil/Skyrim. The WGC is causing a Civil War in Skyrim, and the Empire is threatened to break apart. I would say that effects everyone.

Like you said, we don't hear much about what happens outside of Skyrim. There are many things Titus II could be connected to.

Aye, but killing him to make it look like the Civil War was to blame? If they simply wanted him to die, they could have found other means. Instead it was very carefully planned to make it look like the war, and what is the war being fought over?

They didn't want THAT peace. There were plenty of others who wanted to fight on.

They did. Most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price, sure there would some who wanted to fight on. But a vast majority wanted peace.

A guy who supposedly lead armies into battle not too long ago.

Thirty years ago?

Anyway the situations were dramitcally different, you can't offer to ban Talos worship to a Brotherhood assassin in exchange for your life.

Can offer a lot more than twenty thousand septims. Can offer an entire kingdom with thousands of women to pick from every night. Could give you an army, lands, titles, a swimming pool of gems.

Can you elaborate here? War with the Dominion? And yes, that's one of the more annoying parts of Skyrim. Kill the Emporer and no one bats an eye. Kill a chicken and everyone loses their minds.

War with the Dominion.

Tiber was already a general, Nords made up the bulk of his armies. Like at H'roldan and Sancre Tor, and I'd guess northern Cyrodiil. The guy was Dragonborn, automatic Nord hero for crying out loud.

Colovians made the bulk of his army, and later Legions.

Yes, so there obviously aren't enough forces available to send to Skyrim. The Legions aren't in position to invade the Dominion, they're just preparing to defend against them if they have to.

There is, communication is an issue. Another Imperial force is assembling in Cyrodiil south of Pale Pass, getting ready to march into Skyrim. Fairly large force if they're using the Pass. The Legions await orders for the Emperor, at the moment there is enough of them to even personally escort trade shipments from one end of Cyrodiil to the other. You also have your Mercenaries, conscripted Auxiliaries etc.

Every Legate mentions the Legion will soon be called into service like never before. They're not talking about the Civil War, they've been preparing for twenty six years. They didn't sign the WGC and hope for ever lasting peace.

That Tiber's a bad man, letting Morrowind preserve their self-governance and avoiding an invasion that would've cost thousands of lives. From a strategic view, he left a massive Imperial print on Morrowind with Hlaalu and got dibs on all their ebony and other minerals.

At the cost of very weak Imperial authority. The Legion had it's fair share of problems in Morrowind for the remaining Era.

Nothing to counter assassination and plots huh?
"Indeed. There have been multiple attempts on the Jarl's life. We're not certain if it's the Dark Brotherhood or simply Imperial sympathizers. We've also had run-ins with spies attempting to probe our security for weaknesses. I work with the city guard to make certain they fail. At the end of the day, I'm the last line of defense for the Jarl. I will not allow her to fall."

Stopping someone trying to stab the Jarl in public? That isn't uncovering plots, that is just stopping the act. Run-ins with spies, I assume those would be Legionary Scouts?

Considering they're unable to figure out the Steward is working for Maven, and is misleading the Court. I also had a Thalmor assassin try to kill me in the market... Not to mention all those Thalmor Justiciars that somehow got in. I wouldn't be praising their counter skills.

I'll quote Rimfaxe here, from a piece of the novels.

"He was just standing there, leaning against the banister of the bridge, staring off toward the lighthouse. He came here each Loredas, after visiting his horse at the stables. Often he met someone here; there was a brief conversation, and they would part. He never spoke to the same person twice.

After some chit-chat Colin listens to about how much the old guy likes ships and stuff:
"Well, it's simple today. You can tell them there's nothing new. And if anyone asks, tell them that no food, no wine, no lover's kiss is as beautiful as a long, deep, breath." (The latter part sounds a bit like some sort of passphrase...)

The only answer Colin gets is this here: "You don't want to know that, son. I advise you not try and find out." and two sarcastic responses."

"...it wasn't his first case--it was his third. The first had been simple enough; he'd planted spurious intelligence in the minister of war's office and waited for it to come out somewhere. When one of their agents in a local Thalmor nest reported it, he easily backtracked the leak to a mid-level official w apparently hemorrhaging information to a mistress who was--as it turned out--a Thalmor sympathizer."

How is it any different than blindly clinging to an Empire showing no real signs of progress but plenty of signs of decline?

Because they're in a better position than the Stormcloaks. I believe Skyrim should go independent, but not by the Stormcloaks. I don't much like what the Empire has been doing, but I understand their reasons. Thalmor are too much of a threat for us to be fighting amongst ourselves. We defeat them, then go do whatever.

They would be officially handing over their lands to the Dominion. So either the Redguards stay and live under the Thalmor, or they are uprooted and now homeless. But because the Redguards died for the the Empire they should suck it up? What would you do if a foreign ruler signed away your home to the Thalmor?

Probably the same thing the Redguards did. But, it isn't like they just said "Here you go, all yours, you can go there freely." The Aldmeri had already occupied those lands, and controlled them for five years. The people living there had already been under Thalmor rule for five years, and would be for another five.

So a warrior king shouldn't have a decent sword? Elisif has the right idea sure but it's not like she's coming up with any ground-breaking ideas. She clearly has no idea how anything works, and so her Thanes and Tullius have their way with her.

There is something wrong when it needs to be all special, has to look ancient. A true Warrior King doesn't care what his sword looks like, take a look at Titus the First he was a soldier, king and then Emperor. He wore a plain Colovian soldier’s tunic of dark gray wool and leather breeks. His crown was a plain gold circlet. A broadsword in a battered scabbard hung at his side.

Come fight for Colovia, we'll show you what a true ruler is.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I've changed my mind. Skyrim should go independent with the Stormcloaks, we Imperials need to get the hell out of there ASAP and shut down the border. Let them deal with the outbreak.
 
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Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
I also had a Thalmor assassin try to kill me in the market... Not to mention all those Thalmor Justiciars that somehow got in.

The power of Riften's local (and official) authorities doesn't extend to the Ratway.

Dirge: "Job's done, boss. Gave the package to her just like you said."
Vekel: "Good. Did she say anything we need to know?"
Dirge: "Yep. She said that the Jarl was planning a surprise raid on us, but she talked her out of it. Said she saved us a lot of trouble."
Vekel: "That she did. Very good. I'll tell Brynjolf."

And should some of the Thalmor agents survive your search for Esbern they'll try to go after you, even to the market. They will also ask around in the Flagon.

"Where is he? The one who was asking about the fugitive hiding in the Ratway?"
"You're in the wrong place to be asking those kind of questions, pal."
"No. Not yet."
"You'd better clear out before someone gets hurt."
"Your lack of cooperation has been noted. We'll be back if we require further information. You won't get a second chance."
"The answer ain't gonna be any different the next time. Arrogant elven bastard."


Persistent fellas, huh?
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I also had a Thalmor assassin try to kill me in the market... Not to mention all those Thalmor Justiciars that somehow got in.

The power of Riften's local (and official) authorities doesn't extend to the Ratway.

Dirge: "Job's done, boss. Gave the package to her just like you said."
Vekel: "Good. Did she say anything we need to know?"
Dirge: "Yep. She said that the Jarl was planning a surprise raid on us, but she talked her out of it. Said she saved us a lot of trouble."
Vekel: "That she did. Very good. I'll tell Brynjolf."

And should some of the Thalmor agents survive your search for Esbern they'll try to go after you, even to the market. They will also ask around in the Flagon.

"Where is he? The one who was asking about the fugitive hiding in the Ratway?"
"You're in the wrong place to be asking those kind of questions, pal."
"No. Not yet."
"You'd better clear out before someone gets hurt."
"Your lack of cooperation has been noted. We'll be back if we require further information. You won't get a second chance."
"The answer ain't gonna be any different the next time. Arrogant elven bastard."


Persistent fellas, huh?

Dialogue in Diplomatic Immunity mentions other agents and informants like Gissur. He even can mistake you for another informant/asset if you calm him.

"You must be new. We don't talk to each other here."

The Empire could be tracking down these damn informants if we didn't have this stupid war to deal with. With the Imperial spies and agents in Skyrim tasked to focus on the Stormcloaks... These rebels are too thick to see the secret war that goes on.
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
What she truly is? A Vampire? There are many of those within the Empire, you could say they run the Empire.

And theirs nothing wrong with that concept?

Forgive me, I misread the sentence on UESP. However, the tens of thousands of people was referring to were the Imperial citizens and soldiers killed before and after the Civil war.
But who did Ulfric viciously slaughtered? Markarth doesn't count because he was hired by the Empire to retake back the reach. How many Stormcloak soilders died just so that the Imperials could once again take charge of the reach? You ungrateful imperial bastards should be thankful.
That is debatable. "The Bear of Markarth". No one can say for certainty that it's true, but if you take that in account, then yes it does count. He had the orders of taking back Markarth. I do not however remember him having the authority of murdering innocent civilians.

The amount of people he "supposedly" killed in Markath, added with the amounts of soldiers killed during the Civil War. I'd say that adds up.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
I've changed my mind. Skyrim should go independent with the Stormcloaks, we Imperials need to get the hell out of there ASAP and shut down the border. Let them deal with the outbreak.


Good. Forget about the Nords and that frozen wasteland they live in. Leave them to us or I suppose we could just leave them to themselves ;) The Thalmor know how to deal with Talos worshipers.

Go home to Cyrodil, uphold the WGC and perhaps the Thalmor will skip Cyrodil all together. Cyrodil never was the original target anyways and attacking it was clearly a mistake.

Although... if you leave, Gen Tully will die and so will Rikke. Argonians and Elves will be economically raped and persecuted. Jarl B will lose his throne, a throne that he earned by being a just and righteous man. Dickhead Ulfric will take the throne which he doesn't deserve and more Imperials and Thalmor will die. He won't stop there... no. His kind never does.

I dunno. Skyrim actually might be better off under the Empire, as Elenwen stated and as Hadvar and others also said. Hmmm. It's one thing to give up on a cause, it's another to leave people behind who believe in you, not just you but the Elves and College there too. Hmmm.

I feel if you do leave, while it is understandable, you'll only return to fight another day. While some people will never be convinced, you've already won the argument Mage. You can't please everyone and you can't save everyone. But live or die, run or stay, logic doesn't change. Still, people can either see reason thru logic or they have the choice to be a brat and ignore it. That's not YOUR fault that these people are stubborn. If the whole world is wrong and you're still right then there's always hope.

Live long and prosper my friend.
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
What she truly is? A Vampire? There are many of those within the Empire, you could say they run the Empire.

And theirs nothing wrong with that concept?

Forgive me, I misread the sentence on UESP. However, the tens of thousands of people was referring to were the Imperial citizens and soldiers killed before and after the Civil war.
But who did Ulfric viciously slaughtered? Markarth doesn't count because he was hired by the Empire to retake back the reach. How many Stormcloak soilders died just so that the Imperials could once again take charge of the reach? You ungrateful imperial bastards should be thankful.
That is debatable. "The Bear of Markarth". No one can say for certainty that it's true, but if you take that in account, then yes it does count. He had the orders of taking back Markarth. I do not however remember him having the authority of murdering innocent civilians.

The amount of people he "supposedly" killed in Markath, added with the amounts of soldiers killed during the Civil War. I'd say that adds up.


The Empire didn't just sign the WGC, they believed in it, believed in peace, which to them means something greater. Ulfric did it. And the Empire whom have shown themselves to be rational and compassionate wouldn't have just turned on the WGC for no reason. Besides, it was not Ulfric's place to take over the city, it was to be handed back to the Jarl. That's proof enough he had ulterior motives.

Stormcloaks see the world as they want to see it, as they wish it to be. That's the nature of their cause. The Stormcloak cause doesn't work if they don't have someone else to blame, Stormcloaks fall apart when they have to take responsibility for their actions. Blame has to be assessed elsewhere.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Good. Forget about the Nords and that frozen wasteland they live in. Leave them to us or I suppose we could just leave them to themselves ;) The Thalmor know how to deal with Talos worshipers.

Go home to Cyrodil, uphold the WGC and perhaps the Thalmor will skip Cyrodil all together. Cyrodil never was the original target anyways and attacking it was clearly a mistake.

Although... if you leave, Gen Tully will die and so will Rikke. Argonians and Elves will be economically raped and persecuted. Jarl B will lose his throne, a throne that he earned by being a just and righteous man. Dickhead Ulfric will take the throne which he doesn't deserve and more Imperials and Thalmor will die. He won't stop there... no. His kind never does.

I dunno. Skyrim actually might be better off under the Empire, as Elenwen stated and as Hadvar and others also said. Hmmm. It's one thing to give up on a cause, it's another to leave people behind who believe in you, not just you but the Elves and College there too. Hmmm.

I feel if you do leave, while it is understandable, you'll only return to fight another day. While some people will never be convinced, you've already won the argument Mage. You can't please everyone and you can't save everyone. But live or die, run or stay, logic doesn't change. Still, people can either see reason thru logic or they have the choice to be a brat and ignore it. That's not YOUR fault that these people are stubborn. If the whole world is wrong and you're still right then there's always hope.

Live long and prosper my friend.

You should leave too, or stay... Better you Thalmor stay in Skyrim, in fact send more of your powerful Mages there. Empire needs to retreat fast, and it needs to close the border and let no one enter or leave. Risk is too great, can't let it spread outside of Skyrim.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
Good. Forget about the Nords and that frozen wasteland they live in. Leave them to us or I suppose we could just leave them to themselves ;) The Thalmor know how to deal with Talos worshipers.

Go home to Cyrodil, uphold the WGC and perhaps the Thalmor will skip Cyrodil all together. Cyrodil never was the original target anyways and attacking it was clearly a mistake.

Although... if you leave, Gen Tully will die and so will Rikke. Argonians and Elves will be economically raped and persecuted. Jarl B will lose his throne, a throne that he earned by being a just and righteous man. Dickhead Ulfric will take the throne which he doesn't deserve and more Imperials and Thalmor will die. He won't stop there... no. His kind never does.

I dunno. Skyrim actually might be better off under the Empire, as Elenwen stated and as Hadvar and others also said. Hmmm. It's one thing to give up on a cause, it's another to leave people behind who believe in you, not just you but the Elves and College there too. Hmmm.

I feel if you do leave, while it is understandable, you'll only return to fight another day. While some people will never be convinced, you've already won the argument Mage. You can't please everyone and you can't save everyone. But live or die, run or stay, logic doesn't change. Still, people can either see reason thru logic or they have the choice to be a brat and ignore it. That's not YOUR fault that these people are stubborn. If the whole world is wrong and you're still right then there's always hope.

Live long and prosper my friend.

You should leave too, or stay... Better you Thalmor stay in Skyrim, in fact send more of your powerful Mages there. Empire needs to retreat fast, and it needs to close the border and let no one enter or leave. Risk is too great, can't let it spread outside of Skyrim.


I understand. Just try to quarantine Eastern Skyrim. You can still hold on to parts of it. Though if Whiterun falls, show is over.


Just one more thing if I may. Consider this. The Empire came before Tiber Septim. Whatever the Empire is, it was created from something other than Septim and is falling today because he went too far. And Ulfric is against not just the Empire but Imperialism itself.

Somebody's flffing lieing here.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I understand. Just try to quarantine Eastern Skyrim. You can still hold on to parts of it. Though if Whiterun falls, show is over.


Just one more thing if I may. Consider this. The Empire came before Tiber Septim. Whatever the Empire is, it was created from something other than Septim and is falling today because he went too far. And Ulfric is against not just the Empire but Imperialism itself.

Somebody's flffing lieing here.

No, no. Not worth the risk. You Thalmor can stay there, however.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
I understand. Just try to quarantine Eastern Skyrim. You can still hold on to parts of it. Though if Whiterun falls, show is over.


Just one more thing if I may. Consider this. The Empire came before Tiber Septim. Whatever the Empire is, it was created from something other than Septim and is falling today because he went too far. And Ulfric is against not just the Empire but Imperialism itself.

Somebody's flffing lieing here.

No, no. Not worth the risk. You Thalmor can stay there, however.


Hah! Not going to happen. You know we do have a ship waiting West of the Embassy for a hot pickup. Of course getting to said ship without getting shot or shouted off a cliff is a different story entirely.
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Nope. Considering one ruled a city and large county in Cyrodiil. Count Janus Hassildor.

Why do you hate Vampires?

You must be pulling my leg over there, are you?

That is debatable. "The Bear of Markarth". No one can say for certainty that it's true, but if you take that in account, then yes it does count. He had the orders of taking back Markarth. I do not however remember him having the authority of murdering innocent civilians.

The amount of people he "supposedly" killed in Markath, added with the amounts of soldiers killed during the Civil War. I'd say that adds up.

No it doesn't count. He was ordered (hired seems more appropriate) to take the city back from the reachmen. Unfortunately innocent people became involved in the seizure of power of the city.
 

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