Torn on the War in Skyrim

[XIIGenocide]

The Thalmor are already in Skyrim, albeit only a fraction of them, but there presence is still there.

The Stormcloaks, even if they are trained up by the most experienced fighters are still no match for the Thalmor alone, you said it yourself, the Thalmor have been around for hundreds of years, and they are only getting stronger. Say the Stormcloaks do beat the Legion in Skyrim? Then what? They'll be weaker than before, quite an opportune time for the Thalmor to strike eh? With the Legion out of Skyrim, the Thalmor will have every reason they need to go in, they won't be breaking any temporary truces because they can go in under the guise that they are trying to get Skyrim back. And don't try and full yourself and say the Stormcloaks would be able to withstand a full on Thalmor assault, because we both know they wont.


The dying Empire won't mind the Thalmor going into Skyrim if they've been beaten there, hell they might even encourage it. Now, providing all of this happens, the Thalmor will have even more control over Tamriel, they could even use Skyrim as a way to push into its bordering countries. If the Thalmor don't want to have Skyrim for themselves, and they do hand it over to the Imperials they could still easily sit a puppet on the throne, the Empire will think that they've lost nothing when in fact they have.

The Legion may be dying yes, but they are not dead yet, and they are sure as hell stronger than what the Stormcloaks are or ever will be.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Thalmor are already in Skyrim, albeit only a fraction of them, but there presence is still there.

The Stormcloaks, even if they are trained up by the most experienced fighters are still no match for the Thalmor alone, you said it yourself, the Thalmor have been around for hundreds of years, and they are only getting stronger. Say the Stormcloaks do beat the Legion in Skyrim? Then what? They'll be weaker than before, quite an opportune time for the Thalmor to strike eh? With the Legion out of Skyrim, the Thalmor will have every reason they need to go in, they won't be breaking any temporary truces because they can go in under the guise that they are trying to get Skyrim back. And don't try and full yourself and say the Stormcloaks would be able to withstand a full on Thalmor assault, because we both know they wont.


The dying Empire won't mind the Thalmor going into Skyrim if they've been beaten there, hell they might even encourage it. Now, providing all of this happens, the Thalmor will have even more control over Tamriel, they could even use Skyrim as a way to push into its bordering countries. If the Thalmor don't want to have Skyrim for themselves, and they do hand it over to the Imperials they could still easily sit a puppet on the throne, the Empire will think that they've lost nothing when in fact they have.

The Legion may be dying yes, but they are not dead yet, and they are sure as hell stronger than what the Stormcloaks are or ever will be.

The Thalmor aren't the Dominion, the army of the Aldmeri Dominion is being kept out of the Empire. The Aldmeri Dominion can't reach or attack Skyrim. It is impossible, the Empire won't allow them to do that. Allowing a few agents to roam around to allowing an entire army to roam around two different things. Also Cyrodiil is what they want right now, Skyrim is protected by geography.

Aldmeri Dominion = Elsweyr, Valenwood & Summerset Isle. Looking at the size of the provinces, the Aldmeri Dominion fought against Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, High Rock & Skyrim. Gives you an idea of just how much the Empire has declined if they were weaker prior to the Great War.

You underestimate the strength of Nordic armies. They've fought many battles without Legions. The Stormcloaks are being trained by hardened Legion veterans. The Stormcloaks aren't going to attack with their Militia. After the Civil War they're training their armies, each of the nine Holds is tasked with raising an army, which are all being trained by ex Legionnaires. Stormcloaks are weaker when you start into Skyrim it is the opening months of their rebellion, they are coming from the poor half of Skyrim. After the war, they are able to refit their soldiers with top equipment.

 

[XIIGenocide]

The Thalmor are already in Skyrim, albeit only a fraction of them, but there presence is still there.

The Stormcloaks, even if they are trained up by the most experienced fighters are still no match for the Thalmor alone, you said it yourself, the Thalmor have been around for hundreds of years, and they are only getting stronger. Say the Stormcloaks do beat the Legion in Skyrim? Then what? They'll be weaker than before, quite an opportune time for the Thalmor to strike eh? With the Legion out of Skyrim, the Thalmor will have every reason they need to go in, they won't be breaking any temporary truces because they can go in under the guise that they are trying to get Skyrim back. And don't try and full yourself and say the Stormcloaks would be able to withstand a full on Thalmor assault, because we both know they wont.


The dying Empire won't mind the Thalmor going into Skyrim if they've been beaten there, hell they might even encourage it. Now, providing all of this happens, the Thalmor will have even more control over Tamriel, they could even use Skyrim as a way to push into its bordering countries. If the Thalmor don't want to have Skyrim for themselves, and they do hand it over to the Imperials they could still easily sit a puppet on the throne, the Empire will think that they've lost nothing when in fact they have.

The Legion may be dying yes, but they are not dead yet, and they are sure as hell stronger than what the Stormcloaks are or ever will be.

The Thalmor aren't the Dominion, the army of the Aldmeri Dominion is being kept out of the Empire. The Aldmeri Dominion can't reach or attack Skyrim. It is impossible, the Empire won't allow them to do that. Allowing a few agents to roam around to allowing an entire army to roam around two different things. Also Cyrodiil is what they want right now, Skyrim is protected by geography.

Aldmeri Dominion = Elsweyr, Valenwood & Summerset Isle.

I know, I was going to mention a way into Skyrim but I couldn't think of one for them. The Second Aldmeri Dominion lost to Hammerfell in 4E 180, Who really wants to take Morrowind? And High Rock too is hard to get too. Thats a point. But again, suppose Skyrim does stay immune and safe to the Dominion, what else can they do? I imagine they could try and just act like nothings happening, in time they could amass quite a powerful army, but would the Aldmeri really let them do that?

I'm trying to think of something the Stormcloaks could do if they did drive the Legion out, and I just can't think of anything, but it is four in the morning so i'll let you do the thinking

Its all well and good winning the war, but then what?

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Thalmor are already in Skyrim, albeit only a fraction of them, but there presence is still there.

The Stormcloaks, even if they are trained up by the most experienced fighters are still no match for the Thalmor alone, you said it yourself, the Thalmor have been around for hundreds of years, and they are only getting stronger. Say the Stormcloaks do beat the Legion in Skyrim? Then what? They'll be weaker than before, quite an opportune time for the Thalmor to strike eh? With the Legion out of Skyrim, the Thalmor will have every reason they need to go in, they won't be breaking any temporary truces because they can go in under the guise that they are trying to get Skyrim back. And don't try and full yourself and say the Stormcloaks would be able to withstand a full on Thalmor assault, because we both know they wont.


The dying Empire won't mind the Thalmor going into Skyrim if they've been beaten there, hell they might even encourage it. Now, providing all of this happens, the Thalmor will have even more control over Tamriel, they could even use Skyrim as a way to push into its bordering countries. If the Thalmor don't want to have Skyrim for themselves, and they do hand it over to the Imperials they could still easily sit a puppet on the throne, the Empire will think that they've lost nothing when in fact they have.

The Legion may be dying yes, but they are not dead yet, and they are sure as hell stronger than what the Stormcloaks are or ever will be.

The Thalmor aren't the Dominion, the army of the Aldmeri Dominion is being kept out of the Empire. The Aldmeri Dominion can't reach or attack Skyrim. It is impossible, the Empire won't allow them to do that. Allowing a few agents to roam around to allowing an entire army to roam around two different things. Also Cyrodiil is what they want right now, Skyrim is protected by geography.

Aldmeri Dominion = Elsweyr, Valenwood & Summerset Isle.

I know, I was going to mention a way into Skyrim but I couldn't think of one for them. The Second Aldmeri Dominion lost to Hammerfell in 4E 180, Who really wants to take Morrowind? And High Rock too is hard to get too. Thats a point. But again, suppose Skyrim does stay immune and safe to the Dominion, what else can they do? I imagine they could try and just act like nothings happening, in time they could amass quite a powerful army, but would the Aldmeri really let them do that?

I'm trying to think of something the Stormcloaks could do if they did drive the Legion out, and I just can't think of anything, but it is four in the morning so i'll let you do the thinking

Its all well and good winning the war, but then what?

Training their army, they're being trained by the same people that trained the Legions. Hardened veterans of the Legion are also in the Stormcloak ranks. They're raising their army, the Dominion can't exactly do anything about it they're blocked.

The Nine Holds are amassing an army, with all of Skyrim they're able to get better equipment and now they'll get complete training by those that fought the Aldmeri Dominion, that know how the Dominion fight and operate.

Nords excel at warfare.

 

[XIIGenocide]

The Thalmor aren't the Dominion, the army of the Aldmeri Dominion is being kept out of the Empire. The Aldmeri Dominion can't reach or attack Skyrim. It is impossible, the Empire won't allow them to do that. Allowing a few agents to roam around to allowing an entire army to roam around two different things. Also Cyrodiil is what they want right now, Skyrim is protected by geography.

Aldmeri Dominion = Elsweyr, Valenwood & Summerset Isle.

I know, I was going to mention a way into Skyrim but I couldn't think of one for them. The Second Aldmeri Dominion lost to Hammerfell in 4E 180, Who really wants to take Morrowind? And High Rock too is hard to get too. Thats a point. But again, suppose Skyrim does stay immune and safe to the Dominion, what else can they do? I imagine they could try and just act like nothings happening, in time they could amass quite a powerful army, but would the Aldmeri really let them do that?

I'm trying to think of something the Stormcloaks could do if they did drive the Legion out, and I just can't think of anything, but it is four in the morning so i'll let you do the thinking

Its all well and good winning the war, but then what?

Training their army, they're being trained by the same people that trained the Legions. Hardened veterans of the Legion are also in the Stormcloak ranks. They're raising their army, the Dominion can't exactly do anything about it they're blocked.

The Nine Holds are amassing an army, with all of Skyrim they're able to get better equipment and now they'll get complete training by those that fought the Aldmeri Dominion, that know how the Dominion fight and operate.

Nords excel at warfare.

Yes, but the hundreds or so years head start that the Dominion has had might give them the advantage over the new 'Army of Skyrim'.

Also, if the Stormcloaks do recognize this and see it as an oppurtunity, why not sign a truce with the Empire? Stop fighting and join forces, they both want the same thing, to be ride of the Dominion. Instead, Ulfric being to blind to see that he thinks that he alone should be the one to lead the charge against them. Think about the threat that would pose to the Dominion? Skyrim excels at warfare, so, say Ulfric decided to make this truce, he could quietly amass his army, like you said, without any intervention from the Dominion, because its impossible.

Yes, the Dominion would probably question the Empire as to what Ulfric was doing, and why would he need such a huge army, but that could be easily done under the guise of making sure they have enough man power to defend from an invasion, because who can deny them from that right? Also, the Empire could help Skyrim raise her army, provide REAL legionnaires and help with resources.

The major thing about this is that Ulfric would have to keep Talos worship banned for the mean time, something that I don't think that he is willing to do. One of his promises was if he won the war he would allow Talos worship, what would it look like if he suddenly went back on his word? He used the outlaw of Talos as a rallying cry to gather soliders for his army, and that, given this situation actually happens, which I highly doubt, will be his downfall if this comes to pass.

 

[XIIGenocide]

I was supposed to have made my decision by now, but I haven't. I'll let this thread play out more and see which one I prefer by the end of it, that was the whole point of this thread after all, it has just gone on longer than I expected, i've learned a lot from everyone thats posted, especially you Mage.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Yes, but the hundreds or so years head start that the Dominion has had might give them the advantage over the new 'Army of Skyrim'.

Dominion was greatly weakened, only just twenty six years ago they lost their entire invasion force in Cyrodiil. They were too weakened to hold onto Hammerfell.

Also, if the Stormcloaks do recognize this and see it as an oppurtunity, why not sign a truce with the Empire? Stop fighting and join forces, they both want the same thing, to be ride of the Dominion. Instead, Ulfric being to blind to see that he thinks that he alone should be the one to lead the charge against them. Think about the threat that would pose to the Dominion? Skyrim excels at warfare, so, say Ulfric decided to make this truce, he could quietly amass his army, like you said, without any intervention from the Dominion, because its impossible.

The Empire is as stubborn as the Stormcloaks, they don't want a truce any more than he does. Ulfric doesn't think he should lead the charge against them, he believes Skyrim however can lead Tamriel to victory. The Empire is in the state of decline, it is more than likely a peaceful arrangement between Skyrim and Cyrodiil will occur after Stormcloak victory, Cyrodiil would be stupid not to.

Yes, the Dominion would probably question the Empire as to what Ulfric was doing, and why would he need such a huge army, but that could be easily done under the guise of making sure they have enough man power to defend from an invasion, because who can deny them from that right? Also, the Empire could help Skyrim raise her army, provide REAL legionnaires and help with resources.

Legionnaires are made up of all races, the Stormcloaks have real Legionnaires too. Many of their ranks are filled with veterans of the Great War. Ulfric and Galmar, both Legion veterans. They're not complete idiots, Ulfric is quite intelligent and has the political wit to understand how to get things done. He's not the mindless brute some will try make him out to be.

"By leaving Elisif alive, Ulfric completes the separation of the Empire and Skyrim. With Ulfric's troops here, Elisif will be forced to support his bid for High King. He secures the position and appears above reproach. What's more, Ulfric's refusal to execute his slain enemy's wife will be portrayed as the ultimate act of compassion. Hmph. It's genius, really." - Falk Firebeard

The major thing about this is that Ulfric would have to keep Talos worship banned for the mean time, something that I don't think that he is willing to do. One of his promises was if he won the war he would allow Talos worship, what would it look like if he suddenly went back on his word? He used the outlaw of Talos as a rallying cry to gather soliders for his army, and that, given this situation actually happens, which I highly doubt, will be his downfall if this comes to pass.

The open worship of Talos is an important thing to them. The Stormcloaks are what a Nordic army is, they fairly poor to start out with. But once Skyrim is independent they will train their forces and prepare to go to war, without Thalmor interference or those who can be paid for their loyalty.

Stormcloaks aren't fighting for pay, but honor, glory and tradition.

5. Talos says: Be strong for war. Be bold against enemies and evil, and defend the people of Tamriel. - Ten Commands: Nine Divines

 

[Janus3003]

That the Empire only used Black Marsh mainly as a prison, placing the worst trash the Empire has to offer into that province.

So... Australians are all lizard people?

 

[HappyFaceClown]

even AS88 seems to have stopped coming to your defense and i believe this is because he is running out of excuses for you

I don't need AS88 to come to my defense, I debate with him the same as I've done you. Never saw him throwing a fit.

You had the option when you came into this thread to post some interesting, valid information. Instead it was right into calling my posts bs right off the bat and then providing nothing other than constantly calling everyone's posts bs and even denying even in-game information. Then proceeding to attack anyone who didn't agree with you. You chose that, you. Not me, not AS88, not Janus and not the OP.

Happy, I've not been active on this for a while because a) I had to drive a hundred miles to go pick up a guitar I bought on eBay, b) had an early morning, and c) don't have the time at the minute.

I'm still 100% backing his version of events though, based on the fact that 99.9% of what DM has said on this thread regarding the topic at hand has been well-established lore. Also, the fact that you were unaware of the Dragonborn Prophecy and the fact that Ulfric started those wheels in motion again goes to show that your knowledge on the game just isn't quite there. It's great to have an opinion, but you have to be able to back it up with lore and evidence. I understand that you feel like you have, but I don't think anyone else on the thread is convinced.

And yeah, me and DM have disagreed on points before and had a nerd-fest over it. He doesn't give in, and we've had to agree to disagree more than once. Neither of us have ever resorted to spewing abuse and insults to innocent bystanders, though. The site encourages well-sourced and polite debate, it's the fuel for a great discussion.

forgive me for thinking you had actually come to your senses, i should have known better.. i was almost proud of you m8.
and where are all these supposed posts of me going ape plops and spewing out insults to everyone on this thread? i've looked and i can't find it..
lets see if you can post just one example of me insulting someone where it wasn't in defense, i seriously want to see it.

 

[AS88]

forgive me for thinking you had actually come to your senses, i should have known better.. i was almost proud of you m8.
and where are all these supposed posts of me going ape pl*** and spewing out insults to everyone on this thread? i've looked and i can't find it..
lets see if you can post just one example of me insulting someone where it wasn't in defense, i seriously want to see it.

I never left my senses anywhere. You obviously haven't looked very hard.

imperial fanboys like Drunkenmage will tell you yes, but he doesn't go by the "actual" story of the game itself so i urge you not to fall for his bs and do your own research.

That was your first post on this thread. Your first! "Imperial fanboys" and calling his point of view "bs" before he's even presented it is offensive, personal and insulting. I could go through every single post of yours on this thread and find similar examples. The fact that you're telling people that you've been subjected to insults and playing the victim is brilliant when the above is in your first post in this thread. You commented on this thread looking for trouble, and you've found about twelve completely unnecessary pages of it.

I hoped that you had come to your senses by acting reasonably in the other threads, we've even discussed other topics between ourselves. I don't know what it is about this topic that makes you completely lose control.

 

[HappyFaceClown]

forgive me for thinking you had actually come to your senses, i should have known better.. i was almost proud of you m8.
and where are all these supposed posts of me going ape pl*** and spewing out insults to everyone on this thread? i've looked and i can't find it..
lets see if you can post just one example of me insulting someone where it wasn't in defense, i seriously want to see it.

I never left my senses anywhere. You obviously haven't looked very hard.

imperial fanboys like Drunkenmage will tell you yes, but he doesn't go by the "actual" story of the game itself so i urge you not to fall for his bs and do your own research.

That was your first post on this thread. Your first! "Imperial fanboys" and calling his point of view "bs" before he's even presented it is offensive, personal and insulting. I could go through every single post of yours on this thread and find similar examples. The fact that you're telling people that you've been subjected to insults and playing the victim is brilliant when the above is in your first post in this thread. You commented on this thread looking for trouble, and you've found about twelve completely unnecessary pages of it.

I hoped that you had come to your senses by acting reasonably in the other threads, we've even discussed other topics between ourselves. I don't know what it is about this topic that makes you completely lose control.

that wasn't an insult it was merely a fact, he IS known for doing that as i have read posts from him doing it on several occasions, i was simply trying to prevent the op from believing false nonsense that wasn't from the game itself and warning him of it ahead of time.. i of course failed miserably.
try again.

 

[HappyFaceClown]

there! i deleted the post! now stop being nice, you're freaking me out..

and for the record- i'm not the one getting worked up over a videogame, that would be drunko..

I dunno, Drunko's being his usual self. He hasn't called anyone "evil" or "Hannibal Lector," though, so that's a plus.

i'm the one getting gang hated for simply having a different opinion.

You're being targeted because you're throwing fits instead of backing up your opinion with cited in-game facts, not because your opinion's different. I welcome a well-presented Stormcloak argument, I've just unfortunately never seen one.

ok, while i don't believe that for one second lemme give you one, observe-
1. yall say the stormcloaks are these horrible bigots who hate everybody and only want nord surpremacy-
fact- the stormcloak rebellion was formed out of desperativity to fight back the invading thalmor who have flat out admitted that their over all goal is to wipe out all nords from the earth and enslave everyone else. sound familiar? that might be because the german nazis wanted to do this to all jews back in ww2 in REAL LIFE.
2. this imperial legion all you guys worship are the ultimate ally to these nazis *cough* sorry "Thalmor"
you mine as well call them "nazi sympathizers" cause to support a group that is trying to quite literally wipe out every last race of people other than themselves is not only wrong, its disturbing. THESE are your precious imperials!
3. Ulfric and the stormcloaks are racist..
fact- listen to some of the dialog in windhelm, you'll notice the conversation with the dark elf and the nord says to her "you pollute our city with your filth and you refuse to help the stormcloaks"
this proves 2 things- 1. that they DO in fact allow ANY race into their ranks, thats proven when he says "refuse to help" they would gladly take her in but she hasn't chosen a side.. and 2. that they're not hating races just for not being nord, they're detesting these people cause they REFUSE to help the stormcloaks! has NOTHING to do with race.
4. the stormcloaks are only at war with the empire cause they support the thalmor, how can they fight an enemy when they can't even get to them cause their main ally is all up in their grill? answer? they can't! they MUST eliminate the empire before they can engage the thalmor, the empire WILL NOT join them! they've made that perfectly clear!
5. and i just wanna repeat this because.. you're precious imperial legion is allied to a group of bigoted elves who wish to more less take over the world! now explain to me how that doesn't make THEM just as evil???
oh and not that it matters but, you remember the opening cutscene? yea that was the EMPIRE trying to cut your head off.
THIS is why i'm hated, i more less prove drunko and his made up theories WRONG, and it hurts his feelings and all his buddies.
btw never seen a well-presented stormcloak argument? and don't try and tell me "that isn't a well presented argument" cause we both know that would just be an excuse..

^^ and i have provided lore facts, you guys just refuse to acknowledge it when i do.

 

[AS88]

forgive me for thinking you had actually come to your senses, i should have known better.. i was almost proud of you m8.
and where are all these supposed posts of me going ape pl*** and spewing out insults to everyone on this thread? i've looked and i can't find it..
lets see if you can post just one example of me insulting someone where it wasn't in defense, i seriously want to see it.

I never left my senses anywhere. You obviously haven't looked very hard.

imperial fanboys like Drunkenmage will tell you yes, but he doesn't go by the "actual" story of the game itself so i urge you not to fall for his bs and do your own research.

That was your first post on this thread. Your first! "Imperial fanboys" and calling his point of view "bs" before he's even presented it is offensive, personal and insulting. I could go through every single post of yours on this thread and find similar examples. The fact that you're telling people that you've been subjected to insults and playing the victim is brilliant when the above is in your first post in this thread. You commented on this thread looking for trouble, and you've found about twelve completely unnecessary pages of it.

I hoped that you had come to your senses by acting reasonably in the other threads, we've even discussed other topics between ourselves. I don't know what it is about this topic that makes you completely lose control.

that wasn't an insult it was merely a fact, he IS known for doing that as i have read posts from him doing it on several occasions, i was simply trying to prevent the op from believing false nonsense that wasn't from the game itself and warning him of it ahead of time.. i of course failed miserably.
try again.

That's your opinion, and one we don't share. You like examples, so can you provide an example of something that DM has made up?

 

[AS88]

Also, back on topic, I've noticed something that XIIGenocide may be interested in. This is dialogue from Ahtar, Solitude's Headsman and Jailor.

"I'd fancy a chance at that Jaree-Ra's scrawny neck. Filthy Argonian never would have set foot in this city, if High King Torygg was still alive. I can tell you that."

It seems that racism and xenophobia in Skyrim isn't a purely Stormcloak-bred issue, Anouck. If High King Torygg would have been disapproving of an Argonian in the city, maybe Torygg's and Ulfric's approaches are closer than what Empire supporters would like to think. Obviously there's only so much credit we can give this, as it's coming from Ahtar and not Torygg himself, but it's interesting.

 

[Anouck]

Also, back on topic, I've noticed something that XIIGenocide may be interested in. This is dialogue from Ahtar, Solitude's Headsman and Jailor.

"I'd fancy a chance at that Jaree-Ra's scrawny neck. Filthy Argonian never would have set foot in this city, if High King Torygg was still alive. I can tell you that."

It seems that racism and xenophobia in Skyrim isn't a purely Stormcloak-bred issue, Anouck. If High King Torygg would have been disapproving of an Argonian in the city, maybe Torygg's and Ulfric's approaches are closer than what Empire supporters would like to think. Obviously there's only so much credit we can give this, as it's coming from Ahtar and not Torygg himself, but it's interesting.

Sssssssssssh...
I am trying to kick DrunkenMage's bum.

But yeah, I lost my ass kicking leg.

*walks away crying*

 

[HappyFaceClown]

I never left my senses anywhere. You obviously haven't looked very hard.

That was your first post on this thread. Your first! "Imperial fanboys" and calling his point of view "bs" before he's even presented it is offensive, personal and insulting. I could go through every single post of yours on this thread and find similar examples. The fact that you're telling people that you've been subjected to insults and playing the victim is brilliant when the above is in your first post in this thread. You commented on this thread looking for trouble, and you've found about twelve completely unnecessary pages of it.

I hoped that you had come to your senses by acting reasonably in the other threads, we've even discussed other topics between ourselves. I don't know what it is about this topic that makes you completely lose control.

that wasn't an insult it was merely a fact, he IS known for doing that as i have read posts from him doing it on several occasions, i was simply trying to prevent the op from believing false nonsense that wasn't from the game itself and warning him of it ahead of time.. i of course failed miserably.
try again.

That's your opinion, and one we don't share. You like examples, so can you provide an example of something that DM has made up?

too many to list really, it would take hours and i don't have the patience nor stomach for it.. most recently theirs the thing about Ulfric supposedly wiping out half the other races in skyrim, he then even admitted that it was this Alduin dragon who was responsible but somehow still blamed it on Ulfric.. who knows what goes on in his head.
i dunno what else to say to you guys, i'm right and yall are wrong.. end of story, and you can stay in denial as long as you want, keep pointing fingers, whatever you like.. you are right about one thing tho, i am getting way too worked up over this online dispute and it is indeed very childish of me, for that i apologize.. i know beyond a shadow of doubt that i am right so why should i care what you people think?
i should have stopped posting in this thread long ago, i've been a member of this site for about 7 months now so i should know by now that nobody wins in these debates.. you have my word i will not post in this thread again.

 

[Anouck]

Well,HappyFaceClown, you also took your time to write lengthy posts about DM being a psychopath. You did have the patience and the stomach for that too. Honestly; if you want to convince someone, use arguments from the very beginning. Tell people why you are right, instead of why they suck for not agreeing. You can't expect AS88, Mage, or anyone here to just believe you on your word.

And of course.. It would take "hooooooouuuuurs" to list why he is wrong. Yes, yes. I could say the same thing. I just replied to DM about one of the things he posted. I could just quote him and go: 'I am right, but I won't tell you why because you are so wrong it would take hours to list it'. I don't think that is how you win a debate. But alas.. You already said you won't post here anymore..

 

[AS88]

too many to list really, it would take hours and i don't have the patience nor stomach for it.. most recently theirs the thing about Ulfric supposedly wiping out half the other races in skyrim, he then even admitted that it was this Alduin dragon who was responsible but somehow still blamed it on Ulfric.. who knows what goes on in his head.
i dunno what else to say to you guys, i'm right and yall are wrong.. end of story, and you can stay in denial as long as you want, keep pointing fingers, whatever you like.. you are right about one thing tho, i am getting way too worked up over this online dispute and it is indeed very childish of me, for that i apologize.. i know beyond a shadow of doubt that i am right so why should i care what you people think?
i should have stopped posting in this thread long ago, i've been a member of this site for about 7 months now so i should know by now that nobody wins in these debates.. you have my word i will not post in this thread again.

I asked for one, and you mentioned the Alduin thing that DM talked about, so I'll go through that with you.

This video is the trailer for Skyrim, clearly. The first thing you see is a wall - Alduin's Wall. It depicts the Dragonborn Prophecy as contained in the Elder Scrolls, and a time when the Dragons will return. More specifically, Alduin (the World-Eater), who will return after "the time after Oblivion opened" (the Oblivion Crisis), and when "the sons of Skyrim will spill their own blood" i.e. the Civil War.

By starting the rebellion, Ulfric is effectively fulfilling the prophecy and has caused Alduin to awaken. Alduin's purpose is to destroy the world to start again. This isn't made up, and this isn't opinion. This is as close as you can get to 100% concrete lore, it's a vital turning point in the main storyline and is used in the official game trailer. The voice in the video is Esbern, who goes with the Dragonborn to read Alduin's Wall and discover the use of Dragonrend. The Greybeards also talk about the Dragonborn Prophecy, and how Alduin is capable of ending the world as a result of Ulfric's rebellion.

Had he dealt with Torygg peacefully, there may not have been any Dragons, and therefore no anointed Dovahkiin needed to save the world from certain destruction.

I'm glad you used this as your example, because it's about as clear-cut as you can possibly get in this game.


"And the Scrolls have foretold, of black wings in the cold, that when brothers wage war come unfurled!
Alduin, Bane of Kings, ancient shadow unbound, with a hunger to swallow the world!"

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

The Stormcloaks are a legitimate response from the Nords as to what they perceive as a betrayal by the Empire.

But Ulfric has Twisted them, at times, to an extension of his own desires.

Ulfric gave them the courage to fight back against the empire and thalmor invaders.. how exactly is that twisting someone to your own desire? if your own desire is to fight your enemies instead of bowing down to them "which IS Ulfric's desire" perhaps you're right, but i see nothing "twisted" about that.

In the same way any ideological politician has the ability to warp the minds of the people within their influence. The Nords who, quite legitimately, believed that they were fighting for their rights against a supremacist incursion by proxy of removing a government they believed was failing to protect them sufficiently, have been drawn into that by a charismatic leader such as Ulfric. However, the belief that Ulfric ONLY has the Nords waging a war for this reason is now almost laughable.

Ulfric is motivated by vengeance. If he TRULY wanted to wage a war solely against Mer supremacy and wished to create a stronger, more proactive Vanguard for Skyrim, he would be happy to maintain the status quo as per racial equality within his holds. His political ideologies are in direct conflict with that. The Markarth incident could have been a watershed moment for Ulfric. Instead he chose to subjugate the people and ordered a relentless battering.

The fact that this city was populated by Bretons (Mer/Man descendants) is merely coincidence? Would he have crushed a city or rebellion the same if it had been populated by Nords?

He had the opportunity to be a firebrand statesmen - a man of the people. His fight against the Thalmor and an inept Empire could have been honourable, humble and courageous.

Instead, he merely wished to 'purge' Skyrim after his personal experiences and has used a willing population, terrified by the spectre of the Aldmeri Dominion, to do so. He isn't a man of the people.

He is a man of one people.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

too many to list really, it would take hours and i don't have the patience nor stomach for it.. most recently theirs the thing about Ulfric supposedly wiping out half the other races in skyrim, he then even admitted that it was this Alduin dragon who was responsible but somehow still blamed it on Ulfric.. who knows what goes on in his head.
i dunno what else to say to you guys, i'm right and yall are wrong.. end of story, and you can stay in denial as long as you want, keep pointing fingers, whatever you like.. you are right about one thing tho, i am getting way too worked up over this online dispute and it is indeed very childish of me, for that i apologize.. i know beyond a shadow of doubt that i am right so why should i care what you people think?
i should have stopped posting in this thread long ago, i've been a member of this site for about 7 months now so i should know by now that nobody wins in these debates.. you have my word i will not post in this thread again.

I asked for one, and you mentioned the Alduin thing that DM talked about, so I'll go through that with you.

This video is the trailer for Skyrim, clearly. The first thing you see is a wall - Alduin's Wall. It depicts the Dragonborn Prophecy as contained in the Elder Scrolls, and a time when the Dragons will return. More specifically, Alduin (the World-Eater), who will return after "the time after Oblivion opened" (the Oblivion Crisis), and when "the sons of Skyrim will spill their own blood" i.e. the Civil War.

By starting the rebellion, Ulfric is effectively fulfilling the prophecy and has caused Alduin to awaken. Alduin's purpose is to destroy the world to start again. This isn't made up, and this isn't opinion. This is as close as you can get to 100% concrete lore, it's a vital turning point in the main storyline and is used in the official game trailer. The voice in the video is Esbern, who goes with the Dragonborn to read Alduin's Wall and discover the use of Dragonrend. The Greybeards also talk about the Dragonborn Prophecy, and how Alduin is capable of ending the world as a result of Ulfric's rebellion.

Had he dealt with Torygg peacefully, there may not have been any Dragons, and therefore no anointed Dovahkiin needed to save the world from certain destruction.

I'm glad you used this as your example, because it's about as clear-cut as you can possibly get in this game.


"And the Scrolls have foretold, of black wings in the cold, that when brothers wage war come unfurled!
Alduin, Bane of Kings, ancient shadow unbound, with a hunger to swallow the world!"

Thus, Ulfric is actually fulfilling the wishes of the Thalmor to render the Mundus inhospitable...