Torn on the War in Skyrim

[XIIGenocide]

I do agree with you, but I truly believe that most of the Stormcloaks believe in what they do even if they have been manipulated by Ulfrich (who obviously has quite an intelligence and propoganda network given the size of Skyrim and that pretty much everyone in the entire provence has heard of him).

He's the Jarl of Windhelm, the city built by Ysgramor. If because people have heard of him is a bad thing in Skyrim then the Empire must be a monster because everyone knows the Emperor Titus Mede II.

What I find truly bizarre in the whole situation is the murder of Toryyg. To me it seemed so completely unneccessary. Toryyg was a boy. He could have been easily manipulated (and was being so from Castle Dour as far as I could tell). It just seemed so short sighted for Ulfrich to do such a thing. We know he's not stupid and he had to know he was not going to be named High King any time soon after that. He had to know that the Empire would react, as would the Thalmor. What were his real motives? I always had the feeling he was out for more than just the "High King" thing.

If we're to condemn Ulfric over Torygg, then you must condemn the Empire for the Elder Council assassinating Titus Mede II. High King Torygg was known for giving speeches of Empire this and Empire that. Skyrim is home to Nords, warriors, one does not simply manipulate to get their way. You face your problems head on, Torygg was considered a puppet king, killed because he accepted the challenge. No one forced Torygg to accept the challenge, he accepted knowing full well he would die.

Condemn Torygg for knowing he would start a war. Also Torygg was used to make a point.

While I know he has his own beliefs and opinions, what are his true motivations. He doesn't strike me as particularly idealistic. He's been around long enough and not only fought in the legion, but gone through the Markarth incident.

Just wondering. It's always bothered me. Especially some of the overheard conversations at the Hall of the Kings. They just don't seem to sinc with what's actually going on in the conflict.

Because they want a true Skyrim once more and a true King. "Back to the time when a king was a king because his enemies fell before him, and his people rose because they loved him."

His motivations are an independent Skyrim, his motives are the same as many Nords.

"When finally set free, I returned to Windhelm, and was greeted by a city in mourning, at one with my own grief and anger. Clamoring in angry voices, calling out for justice, for war, they sat me on the throne."

I'm confused, are you still a Stormcloak now? Or are you just proving that there is an argument to be made for them?

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'm confused, are you still a Stormcloak now? Or are you just proving that there is an argument to be made for them?

Just spicing things up. Most of the Imperial supporters tend to link me to arguments or would simply stand on the shoulders of my arguments to reinforce theirs. It is interesting to see what they do without my help, but also when they're against me.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Alexia: "Oh, I know enough. I know those trouble-making Stormcloaks refuse to submit to Imperial authority. Such seditious behavior. Why it's treason!"
Vulwulf: "And when the elves marched into your beloved Cyrodiil, and everyone took up arms against them, wasn't that treason? Against the Dominion? Huh?"
Alexia: "Why that's not the same thing at all. The Dominion were invaders. Conquerors. We had to fight them, to preserve our own way of life."
Vulwulf: "My point exactly."

Skyrim is in turmoil because the Stormcloaks believe their Nord way of life is at risk, while the Imperials believe Skyrim is a part of the Empire, and must follow its laws and customs. - Loading screen

 

[XIIGenocide]

I'm confused, are you still a Stormcloak now? Or are you just proving that there is an argument to be made for them?

Just spicing things up. Most of the Imperial supporters tend to link me to arguments or would simply stand on the shoulders of my arguments to reinforce theirs. It is interesting to see what they do without my help, but also when they're against me.

Best Stormcloak argument i've seen yet. In the midst of my confusion I decided to explore Skyrim and try to find people opinions, there was one that swung me in favour of the Imperials.

It was one from Jarl Laila Lawgiver. She, even being allied with Ulfric believes that his ulterior motive is to become High King, and that he does not try and hide it.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I'm confused, are you still a Stormcloak now? Or are you just proving that there is an argument to be made for them?

Just spicing things up. Most of the Imperial supporters tend to link me to arguments or would simply stand on the shoulders of my arguments to reinforce theirs. It is interesting to see what they do without my help, but also when they're against me.

Best Stormcloak argument i've seen yet. In the midst of my confusion I decided to explore Skyrim and try to find people opinions, there was one that swung me in favour of the Imperials.

It was one from Jarl Laila Lawgiver. She, even being allied with Ulfric believes that his ulterior motive is to become High King, and that he does not try and hide it.

Many Stormcloaks will use the views of the Stormcloaks to justify that, saying that Ulfric believes being High King will give him the power to better protect and serve his people.

Might've been his goal all along.

 

[XIIGenocide]

Just spicing things up. Most of the Imperial supporters tend to link me to arguments or would simply stand on the shoulders of my arguments to reinforce theirs. It is interesting to see what they do without my help, but also when they're against me.

Best Stormcloak argument i've seen yet. In the midst of my confusion I decided to explore Skyrim and try to find people opinions, there was one that swung me in favour of the Imperials.

It was one from Jarl Laila Lawgiver. She, even being allied with Ulfric believes that his ulterior motive is to become High King, and that he does not try and hide it.

Many Stormcloaks will use the views of the Stormcloaks to justify that, saying that Ulfric believes being High King will give him the power to better protect and serve his people.

Might've been his goal all along.

Its all very confusing, I might just stay in Solstheim for a bit and ponder my decision.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Best Stormcloak argument i've seen yet. In the midst of my confusion I decided to explore Skyrim and try to find people opinions, there was one that swung me in favour of the Imperials.

It was one from Jarl Laila Lawgiver. She, even being allied with Ulfric believes that his ulterior motive is to become High King, and that he does not try and hide it.

Many Stormcloaks will use the views of the Stormcloaks to justify that, saying that Ulfric believes being High King will give him the power to better protect and serve his people.

Might've been his goal all along.

Its all very confusing, I might just stay in Solstheim for a bit and ponder my decision.

one of the many reasons a few are openly neutral/want to kill everyone slaughtering each other when bigger threats are around.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'm confused, are you still a Stormcloak now? Or are you just proving that there is an argument to be made for them?

Just spicing things up. Most of the Imperial supporters tend to link me to arguments or would simply stand on the shoulders of my arguments to reinforce theirs. It is interesting to see what they do without my help, but also when they're against me.

Best Stormcloak argument i've seen yet. In the midst of my confusion I decided to explore Skyrim and try to find people opinions, there was one that swung me in favour of the Imperials.

It was one from Jarl Laila Lawgiver. She, even being allied with Ulfric believes that his ulterior motive is to become High King, and that he does not try and hide it.

Why would he hide it? Of course he wants to be High King, no different than the Empire believing themselves superior and that they should rule Tamriel?

Ulfric believes and his followers believe he will be a good King. Is wanting something so you can bring forth change a bad thing?

"Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness. Especially Skyrim."

Is it any better when you've fought and bled for an Empire for hundreds - thousands of years and they view themselves superior and have a history of never doing anything for your province? Where they're known to abandon you to save themselves first and foremost?

"The Empire's always taken us for granted. Nords died by the thousands in the Great War, and what did the Empire do?"

"We're done bleeding for an Empire that won't bleed for us."

Edit: On an unrelated note, through some lore searching I came across this and pissed myself laughing. You know those two Nobles going to the wedding? You can come across them after the quest in the Dark Brotherhood.

"Leave me alone. I just want to find my way out of this accursed province."

Salonia: "I hate it here. Those were my favorite shoes, ruined and for what? We never even made it to the wedding."
Plautis: "Wha... Your shoes? We get robbed by bandits, my clothes torn to shreds by some giant cat, our bodyguard eaten by a dragon... And you're worried about your shoes?"

 

[XIIGenocide]

Just spicing things up. Most of the Imperial supporters tend to link me to arguments or would simply stand on the shoulders of my arguments to reinforce theirs. It is interesting to see what they do without my help, but also when they're against me.

Best Stormcloak argument i've seen yet. In the midst of my confusion I decided to explore Skyrim and try to find people opinions, there was one that swung me in favour of the Imperials.

It was one from Jarl Laila Lawgiver. She, even being allied with Ulfric believes that his ulterior motive is to become High King, and that he does not try and hide it.

Why would he hide it? Of course he wants to be High King, no different than the Empire believing themselves superior and that they should rule Tamriel?

Ulfric believes and his followers believe he will be a good King. Is wanting something so you can bring forth change a bad thing?

"Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness. Especially Skyrim."

Is it any better when you've fought and bled for an Empire for hundreds - thousands of years and they view themselves superior and have a history of never doing anything for your province? Where they're known to abandon you to save themselves first and foremost?

"The Empire's always taken us for granted. Nords died by the thousands in the Great War, and what did the Empire do?"

"We're done bleeding for an Empire that won't bleed for us."

Edit: On an unrelated note, through some lore searching I came across this and pissed myself laughing. You know those two Nobles going to the wedding? You can come across them after the quest in the Dark Brotherhood.

"Leave me alone. I just want to find my way out of this accursed province."

Salonia: "I hate it here. Those were my favorite shoes, ruined and for what? We never even made it to the wedding."
Plautis: "Wha... Your shoes? We get robbed by bandits, my clothes torn to shreds by some giant cat, our bodyguard eaten by a dragon... And you're worried about your shoes?"

Hmm, you make a good case. And I kill those two when I see them on the road, they're arrogant.

 

[XIIGenocide]

So, heres what I think so far.

Both sides have there pros and cons. Part of me wants to join the Stormcloaks because of the Blackmarsh. If the Blackmarsh can be independent why can't Skyrim? Also, the Stormcloaks might fare better without the Legion interfering, but in saying that I don't want another Night of Tears. And yes, the Empire is dying.

I want to side with the Imperials because it seems fairer for everybody but the Nords, Ulfric seems like a bigot to me that doesn't appreciate anybody but his own race, I do understand what he has been through though. The Empire could use Skyrim as well, with the war over they could garrison troops there and ally with the Imperial supporting nords to create an even bigger army, that too would be good to get rid of the Dominion.

I don't know though, i'm so confused.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Depends how much the Thalmor owns the Council. You notice Tullius, so few on reinforcements, dealing with dragons, open rebellion. Yet you think "Well that is due to the upcoming war with the Thalmor"

Except when we take a look at what bits of information we can find about Cyrodiil... the Elder Council can spare Imperial patrols to escort shipments of Mead for Maven Black-Briar at the border to their destination in Cyrodiil... but can't give Tullius the soldiers he needs to end the rebellion, they give him enough to keep fighting the rebellion, not to win. Now that is odd, but then we remember one detail. The Empire knows they're aiding the Thalmor, the Stormcloaks don't. It all goes back to how the Empire was warned about the Thalmor, yet did nothing.

Imperial bureaucracy at it's finest.

 

[XIIGenocide]

Depends how much the Thalmor owns the Council. You notice Tullius, so few on reinforcements, dealing with dragons, open rebellion. Yet you think "Well that is due to the upcoming war with the Thalmor"

Except when we take a look at what bits of information we can find about Cyrodiil... the Elder Council can spare Imperial patrols to escort shipments of Mead for Maven Black-Briar at the border to their destination in Cyrodiil... but can't give Tullius the soldiers he needs to end the rebellion, they give him enough to keep fighting the rebellion, not to win. Now that is odd, but then we remember one detail. The Empire knows they're aiding the Thalmor, the Stormcloaks don't. It all goes back to how the Empire was warned about the Thalmor, yet did nothing.

Imperial bureaucracy at it's finest.

And that Sir, is why I am off to Windhelm after I return from Solstheim

 

[Daelon DuLac]

I do agree with you, but I truly believe that most of the Stormcloaks believe in what they do even if they have been manipulated by Ulfrich (who obviously has quite an intelligence and propoganda network given the size of Skyrim and that pretty much everyone in the entire provence has heard of him).

He's the Jarl of Windhelm, the city built by Ysgramor. If because people have heard of him is a bad thing in Skyrim then the Empire must be a monster because everyone knows the Emperor Titus Mede II.

What I find truly bizarre in the whole situation is the murder of Toryyg. To me it seemed so completely unneccessary. Toryyg was a boy. He could have been easily manipulated (and was being so from Castle Dour as far as I could tell). It just seemed so short sighted for Ulfrich to do such a thing. We know he's not stupid and he had to know he was not going to be named High King any time soon after that. He had to know that the Empire would react, as would the Thalmor. What were his real motives? I always had the feeling he was out for more than just the "High King" thing.

If we're to condemn Ulfric over Torygg, then you must condemn the Empire for the Elder Council assassinating Titus Mede II. High King Torygg was known for giving speeches of Empire this and Empire that. Skyrim is home to Nords, warriors, one does not simply manipulate to get their way. You face your problems head on, Torygg was considered a puppet king, killed because he accepted the challenge. No one forced Torygg to accept the challenge, he accepted knowing full well he would die.

Condemn Torygg for knowing he would start a war. Also Torygg was used to make a point.

While I know he has his own beliefs and opinions, what are his true motivations. He doesn't strike me as particularly idealistic. He's been around long enough and not only fought in the legion, but gone through the Markarth incident.

Just wondering. It's always bothered me. Especially some of the overheard conversations at the Hall of the Kings. They just don't seem to sinc with what's actually going on in the conflict.

Because they want a true Skyrim once more and a true King. "Back to the time when a king was a king because his enemies fell before him, and his people rose because they loved him."

His motivations are an independent Skyrim, his motives are the same as many Nords.

"When finally set free, I returned to Windhelm, and was greeted by a city in mourning, at one with my own grief and anger. Clamoring in angry voices, calling out for justice, for war, they sat me on the throne."

While I may not agree with everything, than you. I learned a good deal about lore here.

 

[Atz]

Just like in the real world , there is right and wrong on both sides . The creator's of this amazing game , knew this when they created S.R. ......
You see It's the Thalmor that are causing all the problems in S.R. they are EVIL and divide ALL others , AND they use both factions to war against one another .

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Well, the Empire still has the logo on the game box/opening menu. So we're still better.

 

[XIIGenocide]

But am I off to Windhelm to kill Ulfric or to aid him? Such trivia.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Kill him. Why? Because you can have his outfit.

 

[XIIGenocide]

Kill him. Why? Because you can have his outfit.

It is a nice outfit.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Kill him. Why? Because you can have his outfit.

It is a nice outfit.

"All right. It's time to deliver the final blow to the Stormcloak rebellion. You have all fought bravely, and sacrificed much to bring us to this point. Ulfric thinks he can hide behind the walls of his castle. But we will fight our way in and drag him out through the rubble to face justice. Because this is the end for them, the Stormcloaks will fight like cornered rats. They will be fierce and crafty. But they are no match for Legionnaires. You are the best and the brightest warriors in Tamriel. Professional soldiers, fearless and devastating. The Emperor will be paying close attention to what happens here today. Men who distinguish themselves will be well rewarded. Ready now! Everyone, with me! For the Empire! For the Legion!"

 

[XIIGenocide]

Kill him. Why? Because you can have his outfit.

It is a nice outfit.

"All right. It's time to deliver the final blow to the Stormcloak rebellion. You have all fought bravely, and sacrificed much to bring us to this point. Ulfric thinks he can hide behind the walls of his castle. But we will fight our way in and drag him out through the rubble to face justice. Because this is the end for them, the Stormcloaks will fight like cornered rats. They will be fierce and crafty. But they are no match for Legionnaires. You are the best and the brightest warriors in Tamriel. Professional soldiers, fearless and devastating. The Emperor will be paying close attention to what happens here today. Men who distinguish themselves will be well rewarded. Ready now! Everyone, with me! For the Empire! For the Legion!"

It think the Alik'r warriors would destroy the Legion, just my opinion.