Khajiit vs Argonians

[123]

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Argonian forces would probably win.

 

[roflwaffleauthoritah]

I've read way too much about argonians so i know they'd win. They're masters of stealth and guerilla warfare and the an xileel seem to have a connection to a special hist tree which can tell them things before they happen which is how they actually pushed the daedra back into the oblivion gates and forced them to close so they'd wait for the khajiit to enter their borders then surround them and slaughter them. Even though by the time of skyrim the shadowscales are gone there would still probably be some master assassin's of old to prevent the khajiit from attacking in the first place. their histskin would be helpful aswell as the fact they have claws, teeth and horns to use which is more than the khajiit have (before anyone says about the khajiit's claw bonus which is more than the argonian claw bonus, it's only higher for balancing purposes). Also nagas! on a side note if the stormcloaks were to win then the argonians would have the most land; the empire have cyrodil and high rock, hammerfell is independent and so is skyrim, aldmeri dominion have summerset valenwood and elsweyr (which is close to the argonians land) and the argonians have Black marsh/ argonia and morrowind.

 

[roflwaffleauthoritah]

I'd say khajiit because they have claws, more agility, more intelligence, and not to mention there's a breed of khajiit that's TWICE as tall as an Altmer while standing on it's hind legs ("Battle Cats"). I'd like to see 25+ Argonians try to take down a Battle Cat.

Nagas.

 

[Jei El]

The fact that you would even compare a kitten to a fluffing reptile makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Dagmar]

The fact that you would even compare a kitten to a fluffing reptile makes absolutely no sense.

Not a kitten a feline. It depends on the feline and the reptile. I wouldn't hold out much hope for an iguana against a mountain lion anymore than I would for a domestic kitten against an alligator.

Similarly it depends on the Khajiit because lore wise they come in all shapes and sizes. The Khajiit in the games appear to be Suthay-raht but the Cathay are larger and stronger. The Cathay-raht are even larger and stronger and as someone mentioned the Senche-raht are quadripeds that are twice the height of an Altmer and 50 times the weight.

The Argonians are formidable warriors as they drove the Daedra back through the Oblivion gates but

Spoiler

the Khajiit warriors of the clan F'aashe that fought against the Daedric hunting hordes of Hircine and sacrificed their lives to protect Prince Attrebus Mede were fierce warriors as well. The odds were hopeless and but for their actions all of Tamriel might have been turned into a wasteland of the undead.

 

[Jei El]

Annnnnd now I lost.

 

[Harc]

Annnnnd now I lost.

Have no fear my lizard friend! I've been out down many times myself but you just have to contradict the truth with repetitive statements! No just kidding just try to overcome it

 

[roflwaffleauthoritah]

Not a kitten a feline. It depends on the feline and the reptile. I wouldn't hold out much hope for an iguana against a mountain lion anymore than I would for a domestic kitten against an alligator.

Similarly it depends on the Khajiit because lore wise they come in all shapes and sizes. The Khajiit in the games appear to be Suthay-raht but the Cathay are larger and stronger. The Cathay-raht are even larger and stronger and as someone mentioned the Senche-raht are quadripeds that are twice the height of an Altmer and 50 times the weight.

The Argonians are formidable warriors as they drove the Daedra back through the Oblivion gates but

Spoiler

the Khajiit warriors of the clan F'aashe that fought against the Daedric hunting hordes of Hircine and sacrificed their lives to protect Prince Attrebus Mede were fierce warriors as well. The odds were hopeless and but for their actions all of Tamriel might have been turned into a wasteland of the undead.

The argonians have a special sub species aswell it's called the naga, 8 foot tall puff adder with arms and legs dripping with lots of needle life teeth, they are great at ambushing. Also the hist sap which is usually just ingested on an argonians naming day to decide how they develop (based on the amount of sap they eat decides how big, strong and intellingent they are) can also be used to give them a boost to make them stronger and faster much like steroids and it cannot be used by other races as it will give them hallucinogenic thoughts that renders them incapable to distinguish friend from foe. Since the defeat of dagon the argonians would have stockpiled loot like daedric armour and weapons so quite a few of the argonian warriors would be well equipped to say the least.

 

[Mr Forz]

It depends of which kind of Khajiits we actually speak of, the ones in Skyrim give a bad example, many of them aren't really into the stealthy approach and can be tall, and intimidating warriors.

Now, there are many events that described the ferocity of a large army of Hist-controlled Argonians.

 

[Dagmar]

The argonians have a special sub species aswell it's called the naga, 8 foot tall puff adder with arms and legs dripping with lots of needle life teeth, they are great at ambushing.

Nagas aren't a sub species. They're a particular tribe. They also don't have arms and legs with teeth although I'm not sure if you meant that or it was just bad English (which is perfectly fine as English isn't everyone's first language).

...Also the hist sap which is usually just ingested on an argonians naming day to decide how they develop (based on the amount of sap they eat decides how big, strong and intellingent they are) can also be used to give them a boost to make them stronger and faster much like steroids and it cannot be used by other races as it will give them hallucinogenic thoughts that renders them incapable to distinguish friend from foe...

Cite your source for this claim please (and no, a wiki is not a legitimate source - cite to an ingame lore document, dialogue or event, the Pocket Guides or the Duology). While there is an Argonian NPC dialogue that supports the notion that Argonians lick Hist Sap on their naming day, the Duology indicates that it's a means of entering into a state of mind where they can commune with the Hist, and there's a generic reference to it increasing battle prowess in quest dialogue fro Oblivion, I don't recall reading, hearing or observing anything that supports the rest of what you claim.

...Since the defeat of dagon the argonians would have stockpiled loot like daedric armour and weapons so quite a few of the argonian warriors would be well equipped to say the least.

First and most importanly, in comparing the two races, weapons and armor are irrelevant as they aren't related to racial advantages and disadvantages. Second, there's no evidence to support the notion that the Saxhleel stockpiled anything from the Oblivion Crisis. There's absolutely nothing to support this in the events that unfold in The Infernal City.

 

[roflwaffleauthoritah]

Nagas aren't a sub species. They're a particular tribe. They also don't have arms and legs with teeth although I'm not sure if you meant that or it was just bad English (which is perfectly fine as English isn't everyone's first language).

Cite your source for this claim please (and no, a wiki is not a legitimate source - cite to an ingame lore document, dialogue or event, the Pocket Guides or the Duology). While there is an Argonian NPC dialogue that supports the notion that Argonians lick Hist Sap on their naming day, the Duology indicates that it's a means of entering into a state of mind where they can commune with the Hist, and there's a generic reference to it increasing battle prowess in quest dialogue fro Oblivion, I don't recall reading, hearing or observing anything that supports the rest of what you claim.
First and most importanly, in comparing the two races, weapons and armor are irrelevant as they aren't related to racial advantages and disadvantages. Second, there's no evidence to support the notion that the Saxhleel stockpiled anything from the Oblivion Crisis. There's absolutely nothing to support this in the events that unfold in The Infernal City.

Yeah sorry for the mistake I was really tired because I had just woken up, I'm not going to go through all the sites I've looked at through hours of research to find the sources of the info however I've done the research multiple times through lots of different sites (all supply their sources) and I only use the info that recurs in most if not all of sites with the exception of the occasional slip up of unreliable info. I'm not sure but I believe the source is from the quests involving the blackwood company from oblivion. out of boredom I decided to do some hunting and the source is in this video

when he says "it was the hist sap not you" he implies it can take away your ability to control your actions, I know it's not spot on with what I said but it was the message I was trying to convey. He also says one can become tolerant to it so they feel less negative affects but clearly it's not enough to stop you from killing innocents. The last bit about the daedric loot is more about the fact they are/were a tribal society in some way, so they are used to using everything to it's full potential and not wasting things like food and materials much like how tribes of the real world treat their resources but when comparing the two, weapons and armour are an important factor since they're not going to be fighting naked with just their bare hands are they? Yes it's not a big deciding factor (especially in this case where it's not likely to be used but is still a possibility) but it shouldn't be overlooked. I apologise for any grammatical errors as I don't want to read through what I just wrote because i'm lazy!

 

[Dagmar]

..when he says "it was the hist sap not you" he implies it can take away your ability to control your actions...

The Hist Sap from the quest Infiltration isn't normal Hist Sap. Normally only non-Saxhleel are affected that way by Hist Sap. We just had a little brainstorming session at UESP and did (finally) find the source for Argonians' form being affected by Hist Sap on their naming day. It's from chapter 4 of Book I of the novel Lord of Souls where the Argonian character Mere-Glim is explaining the Hist to the Umbrelian Fhena:

When we are named, we take of the sap of the Hist, and we are changed - sometimes a little, sometimes very much.

He then goes on to tell her about how the Hist transformed the Saxhleel into something stronger, faster and more resilient to drive back the Daedra during the Oblivion Crisis. That, however, was an isolated incident in reaction to a specific crisis and not something the Hist normally do to Argonians.

 

[roflwaffleauthoritah]

The Hist Sap from the quest Infiltration isn't normal Hist Sap. Normally only non-Saxhleel are affected that way by Hist Sap. We just had a little brainstorming session at UESP and did (finally) find the source for Argonians' form being affected by Hist Sap on their naming day. It's from chapter 4 of Book I of the novel Lord of Souls where the Argonian character Mere-Glim is explaining the Hist to the Umbrelian Fhena:

He then goes on to tell her about how the Hist transformed the Saxhleel into something stronger, faster and more resilient to drive back the Daedra during the Oblivion Crisis. That, however, was an isolated incident in reaction to a specific crisis and not something the Hist normally do to Argonians.

it's basically what I said with sources.

 

[Dagmar]

....but when comparing the two, weapons and armour are an important factor...

No they aren't. Khajiits are a tribal society as well but it's still completely irrelevant in a comparison of racial advantages. Talking about Saxhleel wielding Daedric weapons is no more relevant than talking about Khajiit using the same.

....they're not going to be fighting naked with just their bare hands are they?...

Both Saxhleel and Khajiit have been known to fight only with claws. Mere-Glim never uses a weapon in his fights in Lord of Souls and wears no armor. He relies on his claws, his tough Argonian hide and his ability to maneuver in the water.

it's basically what I said with sources.

Sources matter. There's misinformation in unsourced information (plenty at one wiki site). Even with the update of the UESP article we removed misinformation about the relevance of the amount of Hist Sap to its effects on the Saxhleel. It's also substantially different from what you said as the Hist Sap on naming day only affects the form and the Hist don't empower the sap to do anything more than that, and allow the Argonians to commune with them. The empowerment of the sap during the Oblivion Crisis was a unique situation. Hist sap doesn't normally do that.

 

[Neveraine]

I think they would really just end up killing each other. The khajiits have a diverse population, some warriors, some thieves, some wizards, and some huge beasts that are like cat-horses, while the Argonians can drink the Hist which greatly enhances their strength and they have proven capable of coming together en-mass to fight intruders such as in the Oblivion Crisis. I think it would be mostly an equal fight.

 

[roflwaffleauthoritah]

No they aren't. Khajiits are a tribal society as well but it's still completely irrelevant in a comparison of racial advantages. Talking about Saxhleel wielding Daedric weapons is no more relevant than talking about Khajiit using the same.

Both Saxhleel and Khajiit have been known to fight only with claws. Mere-Glim never uses a weapon in his fights in Lord of Souls and wears no armor. He relies on his claws, his tough Argonian hide and his ability to maneuver in the water.

Sources matter. There's misinformation in unsourced information (plenty at one wiki site). Even with the update of the UESP article we removed misinformation about the relevance of the amount of Hist Sap to its effects on the Saxhleel. It's also substantially different from what you said as the Hist Sap on naming day only affects the form and the Hist don't empower the sap to do anything more than that, and allow the Argonians to commune with them. The empowerment of the sap during the Oblivion Crisis was a unique situation. Hist sap doesn't normally do that.

we're not talking about which is the best race we're talking about which race would win a war so equipment matters. take the armourers challenge for an example, the whole book is basically about smiths trying to find out how to equip troops to fight effectively in black marsh so if the khajiit invade black marsh not equipped correctly they won't be able to fight effectively. Yes I know sources matter but I do not own any of the novels so I cannot consult them for the sources instead I use sites which have the sources of the novels to consult. But uh funny story, I found the preview for the book and found the bit you were talking about with no evidence that the sap altering the argonians was a one off thing and even if it was a one off thing what's to say the danger of a khajiit invasion isn't enough for the hist to act like that again? I think it might be something to do with the an xileel as they seem to have a strong connection to the hist, maybe they're able to communicate better with the hist than others so therefore they can request the hist to alter their sap, just a though.

 

[Dagmar]

we're not talking about which is the best race we're talking about which race would win a war so equipment matters. take the armourers challenge for an example

Referencing The Armorer's Challenge only undermines your claim as it supports the notion that armor and weapons as heavy as Daedric ones aren't fit for use in Black Marsh and that the Argonians wouldn't rely on such heavy and cumbersome equipment. There's nothing supporting the notion that Argonian's or Khajiit rely on any particular form of armor or equipment that would give an advantage let alone that the Argonian's stockpiled Daedric armor or weapons. It's a total non-point.

But uh funny story, I found the preview for the book and found the bit you were talking about with no evidence that the sap altering the argonians was a one off thing

Only if you don't understand the meaning of the word. It's clearly a reference to a historical event completely unprecedented in the lore or repeated after.

and even if it was a one off thing what's to say the danger of a khajiit invasion isn't enough for the hist to act like that again?

No one said anything about a Khajiit invasion and even if the conflict were in the form of an invasion it's still not the same thing. The Argonians of Black Marsh have a long history of conflict with other races and not once in all that time did the Hist ever act in the manner they did during the Oblivion Crisis.

...so therefore they can request the hist to alter their sap, just a though.

The Hist act of their own accord not at the bidding of any Saxhleel. They called the Argonians back to Black Marsh during the Oblivion Crisis and altered them of their own accord. If the Hist didn't empower the Saxhleel in any of their other more mundane conflicts there really isn't anything to support speculation they would act any differently in war with the Khajiit.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Honestly who ever attacks... looses in a straight war. But the fact is that the Khajiits have the Dominion's support. How much is up in the air I will admit, but that said Argonian's history from my understanding is that they prefer Guerrilla warfare which obviously favors them. If the Argonians attack they don't know the land so their usual tactics wouldn't be as effective.

 

[Uther Pundragon]

Personally if Black Marsh was to declare war on the Khajiit, they would lose. Black Marsh stands alone. They would not only be fighting the Khajiit, but also Bosmer and Altmer in the form of reinforcements. Even more, depending on how much time has passed before they were to go to war, Morrowind would likely seek revenge for the invasion by the Argonians.

 

[roflwaffleauthoritah]

Referencing The Armorer's Challenge only undermines your claim as it supports the notion that armor and weapons as heavy as Daedric ones aren't fit for use in Black Marsh and that the Argonians wouldn't rely on such heavy and cumbersome equipment. There's nothing supporting the notion that Argonian's or Khajiit rely on any particular form of armor or equipment that would give an advantage let alone that the Argonian's stockpiled Daedric armor or weapons. It's a total non-point.
Only if you don't understand the meaning of the word. It's clearly a reference to a historical event completely unprecedented in the lore or repeated after.
No one said anything about a Khajiit invasion and even if the conflict were in the form of an invasion it's still not the same thing. The Argonians of Black Marsh have a long history of conflict with other races and not once in all that time did the Hist ever act in the manner they did during the Oblivion Crisis.
The Hist act of their own accord not at the bidding of any Saxhleel. They called the Argonians back to Black Marsh during the Oblivion Crisis and altered them of their own accord. If the Hist didn't empower the Saxhleel in any of their other more mundane conflicts there really isn't anything to support speculation they would act any differently in war with the Khajiit.

Yes I agree the armour probably wouldn't be used in black marsh but it could be used in the khajiit homeland however if they did have the weapons they'd most likely be using them and there is another point I forgot to bring up, they might have sold the loot to better fund their army which could give an edge in equipment and supplies. Remember most of the lore we know about argonians isn't very clear and it's usually told by non argonians who don't completely understand the culture and most importantly the book is written by a person who does not make the games therefore invents the new lore in the books which is why it has never shown up before or after (especially since it was published just a few months before skyrims release which gave no time for the game to reference the book but there is a nice reference to the argonian invasion of morrowind in the dragonborn dlc). Also there's no evidence that they haven't acted like that before as defeats could be down to the lack of discipline and organisation vs well equipped and organised troops much like the experienced romans vs the un organised celts. The successful attack on the gate was probably because of the an xileel leadership or at least it wouldn't have been as successful without good leaders , organisation and strategy. The fact that the hist knew the crisis would happen could have played a part in the hist sap effects as it might take time to create the perfect sap for the job. The last bit was a nice little bit of speculation to lighten the mood