Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

True.

Do you happen to know if there is any lore that tells about why Ulfric wasn't the first one to be executed? My best guess would indeed be that the Thalmor had something to do with it...

To save him until last, he's the leader of the rebellion. Seems normal when you have him and his men, make him watch his men die. He may of been first up, except that Stormcloak rushed forward. Probably forgot to do him first after that, just called you next.

Doubt the Thalmor would have anything to do with it, he hates them with a passion. If the Thalmor said the wrong thing, they know he would kill them if he had the excuse. They were trying to stop the execution, but it went ahead anyway.

 

[Anouck]

True.

Do you happen to know if there is any lore that tells about why Ulfric wasn't the first one to be executed? My best guess would indeed be that the Thalmor had something to do with it...

To save him until last, he's the leader of the rebellion. Seems normal when you have him and his men, make him watch his men die. He may of been first up, except that Stormcloak rushed forward. Probably forgot to do him first after that, just called you next.

Doubt the Thalmor would have anything to do with it, he hates them with a passion. If the Thalmor said the wrong thing, they know he would kill them if he had the excuse. They were trying to stop the execution, but it went ahead anyway.

We don't know what Tullius and those Thalmor were discussing. We do know that they were there to save Ulfric. Isn't it possible they wanted to delay his execution? That would give them more time to handle the situation than when he would've gone first. General Tullius, as a man who is down to Earth and efficient, doesn't seem to be the person to waste more time on Ulfric. I think of him more as the "let's get this over with" guy.

I know he hates the Thalmor with a passion, but they have quite some power. I don't know how far their power stretches, but maybe he had no choice but to obey? Or maybe they actually had a valid argument to convince him why Ulfric shouldn't go first...

 

[HappyTroll]

Sorry to interrupt. But can you guys tell me what the status of Hammerfell is with the Empire at the time the game is starting.?

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[Anouck]

Sorry to interrupt. But can you guys tell me what the status of Hammerfell is with the Empire at the time the game is starting.?

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​

This is the most recent history of Hammerfell:​

"After the Oblivion Crisis, Hammerfell remained a part of the Empire during the Stormcrown Interregnum, which ended when Titus Mede seized the Imperial City and was proclaimed Emperor. During the Great War against the Thalmor-led Aldmeri Dominion, Hammerfell fought with the rest of the Empire, and was invaded by the Thalmor forces. When the war ended, Emperor Titus Mede II ceded a portion of southern Hammerfell to the Dominion and outlawed worship of Talos throughout the Empire. The Redguards, outraged, continued to defy the White-Gold Concordat, forcing Titus Mede II to release Hammerfell as its own, independent state.
The Redguards eventually forced a stalemate with the Dominion, leading to Aldmeri forces withdrawing completely from Hammerfell."

Source:​

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hammerfell​

 

[Jeremius]

DrunkenMage: If they do not have time or patience to deal with you, of course they will "mistake" you for a stormcloak, because they are lumping everyone together. Likely what they did with Lokir, not really a mistake but simply kill them all and sort it out later.

 

[DrunkenMage]

We don't know what Tullius and those Thalmor were discussing. We do know that they were there to save Ulfric. Isn't it possible they wanted to delay his execution? That would give them more time to handle the situation than when he would've gone first. General Tullius, as a man who is down to Earth and efficient, doesn't seem to be the person to waste more time on Ulfric. I think of him more as the "let's get this over with" guy.

I know he hates the Thalmor with a passion, but they have quite some power. I don't know how far their power stretches, but maybe he had no choice but to obey? Or maybe they actually had a valid argument to convince him why Ulfric shouldn't go first...

They have power, but not over the Legion. Tullius being forced to go to the Thalmor party in Diplomatic Immunity is due to his political role as Military Governor. Thalmor have zero authority over the Legion.

The Thalmor are not allowed to be officially involved in the Civil War, as stated by Elenwen. Which is why they do things indirectly, and remain hands off.

Tullius is a man who wants to get things over with, but they'd still have to execute them all. It is simply easier to save Ulfric till last, since it is his head you're taking back to Cyrodiil. If you execute him first, then you still have to stand around. It's all about sending a message, if you kill his men in front of him, then kill him.

There is simply no reason to hurry the execution of him, he's in the center of an entire Legion garrison inside a fortified village. They didn't expect a dragon attack, so if you put yourself in their shoes. They had already ended the civil war, and Ulfric wasn't going anywhere.

 

[NENALATA]

But the Thalmor were there to delay the execution so Ulfric could've been saved. We all know the Dominion gains from the Civil War that is waging in Skyrim. They were talking to General Tullius as the convoy arrived in Helgen, and it is possibly they had something to do with it.

No clue. However, the Thalmor have other interests in mind as well, it's not limited to just Ulfric and Skyrim. Elenwen is the Emissary to Skyrim and it seems she felt that it was necessary to intervene at Helgen.

Mind you - it is in the Dominion's best interests to assist the Empire with upholding the WGC and to assist the Legion\local authorities with administering the conditions of the WGC throughout the Empire.

And to that end, the Skyrim Civil War also concerns the Dominion.

 

[Jeremius]

But the Thalmor were there to delay the execution so Ulfric could've been saved. We all know the Dominion gains from the Civil War that is waging in Skyrim. They were talking to General Tullius as the convoy arrived in Helgen, and it is possibly they had something to do with it.

No clue. However, the Thalmor have other interests in mind as well, it's not limited to just Ulfric and Skyrim. Elenwen is the Emissary to Skyrim and it seems she felt that it was necessary to intervene at Helgen.

Mind you - it is in the Dominion's best interests to assist the Empire with upholding the WGC and to assist the Legion\local authorities with administering the conditions of the WGC throughout the Empire.

And to that end, the Skyrim Civil War also concerns the Dominion.

but the Thalmor want it to keep going, while the legion wants it done. The dossier on Ulfric in the Thalmor embassy says as much.

 

[DrunkenMage]

DrunkenMage: If they do not have time or patience to deal with you, of course they will "mistake" you for a stormcloak, because they are lumping everyone together. Likely what they did with Lokir, not really a mistake but simply kill them all and sort it out later.

It's just a wrong place, wrong time. The Empire is a bureaucracy, they don't do things to save time or to do them easily. They have forms and documents for everything, hence Ralof's jibe about "Empire loves their damn lists" they record everything. Killing you means they still have to document it also, if the Legion executes someone. It has to be recorded, signed, filed.

The Legion mistook you for a Stormcloak, due to the current situation. You were there at the same time the Stormcloaks were, walked into the ambush also. You were picked up and arrested, thought to have been with them. It isn't about the Legion not having time or patience to deal with you, they just mistook you for one of Ulfric's crew.

It isn't about illegal immigrants, terrorists and whatever else you want to say. You were simply thought to have been a Stormcloak, and they admit it was a misunderstanding and error on their part. You were just a variable they never considered, they were there looking for Stormcloaks and they probably just saw you as another Stormcloak and not thought twice about it when they herded you into the cart.

 

[DrunkenMage]

[
Mind you - it is in the Dominion's best interests to assist the Empire with upholding the WGC and to assist the Legion\local authorities with administering the conditions of the WGC throughout the Empire.

And to that end, the Skyrim Civil War also concerns the Dominion.

It's been the Dominion's best interest to undermine and weaken the Empire. It has been for the last hundred and fifty years, doubt they even care about assisting the Legion. The Thalmor are against everything the Empire stands for, and are most likely disgusted and insulted by it's continued existence.

They actually go out of their way to make the Empire look bad, with their heavy enforcement of the Concordat is to cause supporters flocking to Ulfric's banner.

Their main concerns are; weaken the Empire, hunt down the blades, win the next war.

To be honest, they didn't seemed phased over a Stormcloak victory. They say an Imperial victory harms their overall position, but a 'Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided' sounds like something you'd say to a mild cold.

 

[NENALATA]

but the Thalmor want it to keep going, while the legion wants it done. The dossier on Ulfric in the Thalmor embassy says as much.

It is also my understanding that Justiciar boots are on the ground in Skyrim sweeping the countryside and highways for Stormcloak soldiers.

 

[NENALATA]

[
Mind you - it is in the Dominion's best interests to assist the Empire with upholding the WGC and to assist the Legion\local authorities with administering the conditions of the WGC throughout the Empire.

And to that end, the Skyrim Civil War also concerns the Dominion.​

It's been the Dominion's best interest to undermine and weaken the Empire. It has been for the last hundred and fifty years, doubt they even care about assisting the Legion. The Thalmor are against everything the Empire stands for, and are most likely disgusted and insulted by it's continued existence.

They actually go out of their way to make the Empire look bad, with their heavy enforcement of the Concordat is to cause supporters flocking to Ulfric's banner.

Their main concerns are; weaken the Empire, hunt down the blades, win the next war.

To be honest, they didn't seemed phased over a Stormcloak victory. They say an Imperial victory harms their overall position, but a 'Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided' sounds like something you'd say to a mild cold.

Like the Empire feels any differently towards the Dominion.

 

[HappyTroll]

Thanks. That helps greatly with my stormcloak/imperial decision and back story.

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[Jeremius]

DrunkenMage: If they do not have time or patience to deal with you, of course they will "mistake" you for a stormcloak, because they are lumping everyone together. Likely what they did with Lokir, not really a mistake but simply kill them all and sort it out later.

It's just a wrong place, wrong time. The Empire is a bureaucracy, they don't do things to save time or to do them easily. They have forms and documents for everything, hence Ralof's jibe about "Empire loves their damn lists" they record everything. Killing you means they still have to document it also, if the Legion executes someone. It has to be recorded, signed, filed. The list does not matter when you are first caught, where the lumping happens, as they never mention it until helgen.

The Legion mistook you for a Stormcloak, due to the current situation. You were there at the same time the Stormcloaks were, walked into the ambush also. You were picked up and arrested, thought to have been with them. It isn't about the Legion not having time or patience to deal with you, they just mistook you for one of Ulfric's crew. Because they were not in the mood to sort out everyone so they decided to execute everyone like stormcloaks, thus "mistaking them" for stormcloaks if they were not (Lokir and the player)

It isn't about illegal immigrants, terrorists and whatever else you want to say. You were simply thought to have been a Stormcloak, and they admit it was a misunderstanding and error on their part. You were just a variable they never considered, they were there looking for Stormcloaks and they probably just saw you as another Stormcloak and not thought twice about it when they herded you into the cart. Of course it is not, it is about us being mistaken for stormcloaks because they were more concerned with taking down the rebellion that they decided that everyone caught in the ambush was a rebel and with no way to prove anything at all, their word is condemnation.

responses in bolded light green. I am not saying you are wrong, just that it is not as simple as a mere mistake of identity, but a choice to kill then sort. I am only giving them a reason WHY they would mistake you for a stormcloak, not just the idiotic "I was seen with rebels so they thought I was one" excuse you seem so fond of.

 

[DrunkenMage]

responses in bolded light green. I am not saying you are wrong, just that it is not as simple as a mere mistake of identity, but a choice to kill then sort. I am only giving them a reason WHY they would mistake you for a stormcloak, not just the idiotic "I was seen with rebels so they thought I was one" excuse you seem so fond of.

You were caught with the rebels, it isn't just about being seen with them. You walked into the ambush and were thought to have been one. It isn't idiotic, and it is far more logical than going on about "Legion didn't want to care" "Legion just executed everyone cause it is easier"

It was simply wrong place, wrong time. I'm fond of giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they're not there to simply kill and to sort things out later. The Legion approach to things isn't simply "This is easier, lets kill them all" or "They were not in the mood". Not in the mood isn't something those who represent the Emperor do.

You're looking for every excuse other than the simple wrong place, wrong time. It was a misunderstanding and you were thought to have been part of the Stormcloak number.

Like the Empire feels any differently towards the Dominion.

No one said they did, they hate the Aldmeri Dominion too. Both the Empire and Dominion aren't going back to war for giggles. They mean to wipe one another off the face of Nirn. Hopefully the Aldmeri Dominion get better strategists, and not take another gamble like they did during the Great War which cost them the lives of thousands Aldmeri troops for nothing.

 

[Jeremius]

responses in bolded light green. I am not saying you are wrong, just that it is not as simple as a mere mistake of identity, but a choice to kill then sort. I am only giving them a reason WHY they would mistake you for a stormcloak, not just the idiotic "I was seen with rebels so they thought I was one" excuse you seem so fond of.

You were caught with the rebels, it isn't just about being seen with them. You walked into the ambush and were thought to have been one. It isn't idiotic, and it is far more logical than going on about "Legion didn't want to care" "Legion just executed everyone cause it is easier"

It was simply wrong place, wrong time. I'm fond of giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they're not there to simply kill and to sort things out later. The Legion approach to things isn't simply "This is easier, lets kill them all" or "They were not in the mood". Not in the mood isn't something those who represent the Emperor do.

You're looking for every excuse other than the simple wrong place, wrong time. It was a misunderstanding and you were thought to have been part of the Stormcloak number.

If you were not there, you would not have been lumped in with the rebels. Wrong place, wrong time, with the Imperials just not bothering to do anything but deal with the rebels. easy to mistake someone for a rebel when you are only looking for rebels.

It was decided you were to get a rebel's death as they saw you with the rebels and they thought/decided that you were likely one because they never saw you before.

 

[DrunkenMage]

If you were not there, you would not have been lumped in with the rebels. Wrong place, wrong time, with the Imperials just not bothering to do anything but deal with the rebels. easy to mistake someone for a rebel when you are only looking for rebels.

If you weren't there, then you wouldn't have been arrested. You walked into an ambush, you were picked up the same as the Stormcloaks. It's easy to mistake someone for a rebel, when they're caught up in the confusion of a sudden ambush.

They were looking to only find rebels, Lokir and the player walked into the ambush just as it happened. The timing of your appearance was bad, you stumbled into the trap as it sprung. They most likely didn't think it was a coincidence that you happened to be there just as the Stormcloaks were.

You were in the wrong place, at the wrong time. You were there just as it went down, so of course a Legionnaire would assume you would have most likely been with the rebels. If you were part of the Legion, and you spring an ambush on the Stormcloaks, you're going to most likely assume everyone else captured in that ambush is a Stormcloak since they're not Legion. Sad to say, but they were only expecting rebels to be there. You were caught and assumed to have been one. They mistook you for a threat, hence the misunderstanding.

 

[Jeremius]

If you were not there, you would not have been lumped in with the rebels. Wrong place, wrong time, with the Imperials just not bothering to do anything but deal with the rebels. easy to mistake someone for a rebel when you are only looking for rebels.

If you weren't there, then you wouldn't have been arrested. You walked into an ambush, you were picked up the same as the Stormcloaks. It's easy to mistake someone for a rebel, when they're caught up in the confusion of a sudden ambush.

They were looking to only find rebels, Lokir and the player walked into the ambush just as it happened. The timing of your appearance was bad, you stumbled into the trap as it sprung. They most likely didn't think it was a coincidence that you happened to be there just as the Stormcloaks were.

You were in the wrong place, at the wrong time. You were there just as it went down, so of course a Legionnaire would assume you would of most likely been with the rebels. If you were part of the Legion, and you spring an ambush on the Stormcloaks, you're going to most likely assume everyone else captured in that ambush is a Stormcloak since they're not Legion. Sad to say, but they were only expecting rebels to be there. You were caught and assumed to have been one. They mistook you for a threat, hence the misunderstanding.

like I said, it was wrong place wrong time because the ambush was for rebels, so they just assumed you were one.

 

[DrunkenMage]

like I said, it was wrong place wrong time because the ambush was for rebels, so they just assumed you were one.

Which I have been saying for quite sometime, you were thought to be a rebel because you were caught in that ambush with the Stormcloaks. You have been saying you're a terrorist/illegal immigrant, or that they don't care/don't have the time to deal with.

 

[Jeremius]

like I said, it was wrong place wrong time because the ambush was for rebels, so they just assumed you were one.

Which I have been saying for quite sometime, you were thought to be a rebel because you were caught in that ambush with the Stormcloaks. You have been saying you're a terrorist/illegal immigrant, or that they don't care/don't have the time to deal with.

it is a misunderstanding of getting lumped in with the rebels (Them thinking you are one). was not saying you were wrong, just that them thinking you are one, is equal to them simply lumping you in with the rebels, because that is essentially what they did. Kill everyone and sort it out later because they all might be rebels.

Seems we have the same idea, just different views of it.