Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

You were grabbed in the same ambush, it was simply a wrong place and wrong time.

The Legion had planned the ambush very carefully, even with Thalmor intervention that kept saving Ulfric from being captured. So it was amazing strategy from Tullius to be able to capture Ulfric and somehow keep the Thalmor in the dark.

"A masterstroke by General Tullius! He's only been in charge here for a few months, but he's turned things around for the Empire. We've been trying to catch Ulfric since the war started, but he always seemed to slip through our fingers... like he knew we were coming. This time, the General turned the tables on him. Ulfric rode right into our ambush with only a few bodyguards. He surrendered pretty meekly, too. So much for his death-or-glory reputation."

Tullius is very good at his job. His ambush even earned the respect of the Stormcloaks it captured. With Ralof saying it was the prettiest ambush as one could get. Out numbered the Stormcloaks 3 to 1.

You're not being killed for crossing the border, the Legion had planned this to the letter. The Empire isn't interested in you.
"You and me - we shouldn't be here. It's these Stormcloaks the Empire wants." - Lokir.

They're not going to simply execute you for fun, they are ending the rebellion, sadly you were caught also. You stumbled into their ambush, you were captured with the Stormcloaks and with Lokir.

"Hey, you. You're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right? Walked right into that Imperial ambush, same as us, and that thief over there."- Ralof

Now the fact you seem to have been unconscious, could suggest your character may of resisted. Perhaps in the sudden confusion you thought you were under attack, or maybe you were hit from behind and mistaken for one of the Stormcloaks.

"I don't blame you for being angry about it. I would be, too, in your shoes. But it was all a mistake. You weren't supposed to be on that cart with those Stormcloak traitors." - Hadvar

The Legion are very efficient at their tasks, they would of cleared the area of civilians prior to setting the ambush to not get innocents in the crossfire. "You Imperials are efficient, I'll give you that." - Jarl Balgruuf

When Lokir and you walked into the ambush at the same time the Stormcloaks did, you were all picked up and taken.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Maybe "illegally" crossing the border is punished by death?

In order to not get involved in an argument with DrunkenMage again, I will simply go with this. sounds more logical anyways.

Maybe you could be right, we don't know the exact punishment for crossing the border. Especially into an area under martial law. Though I was going by Lokir's pleading about not being a Stormcloak.

 

[Jeremius]

Maybe "illegally" crossing the border is punished by death?

In order to not get involved in an argument with DrunkenMage again, I will simply go with this. sounds more logical anyways.

Maybe you could be right, we don't know the exact punishment for crossing the border. Especially into an area under martial law. Though I was going by Lokir's pleading about not being a Stormcloak.

true. But maybe that is just their (The imperials) way of legally executing an illegal immigrant?

 

[DrunkenMage]

true. But maybe that is just their (The imperials) way of legally executing an illegal immigrant?

No idea, we do know Ulfric's time in the Legion has given him the tactical knowledge and he does make use of spies. It can also explain why you could be thought to have been a Stormcloak even though you're not dressed like one. Since he does use spies, you could of been mistaken for a Stormcloak spy.

 

[Jeremius]

true. But maybe that is just their (The imperials) way of legally executing an illegal immigrant?

No idea, we do know Ulfric's time in the Legion has given him the tactical knowledge and he does make use of spies. It can also explain why you could be thought to have been a Stormcloak even though you're not dressed like one. Since he does use spies, you could of been mistaken for a Stormcloak spy.

perhaps. I prefer the simple answer of war making the punishment for illegal border crossing death.

 

[DrunkenMage]

perhaps. I prefer the simple answer of war making the punishment for illegal border crossing death.

Suspected treason is a simple answer. Since we know the punishment for the Stormcloaks is death and we had Lokir pleading with Ralof to tell the Legion you and him weren't with them, that you're not Stormcloaks.

Seems more logical than assuming illegal border crossing is death. Since if it was death, then it wasn't a mistake and you were supposed to be killed. Since Hadvar and Tullius say it was a mistake and a misunderstanding, crossing the border couldn't have been the crime.

 

[Churros]

Why it is true that imperials as much as stormcloaks I have to go with stormcloaks even if they hate other races and ulfric only want to be high king. The reason so is because 1.Ulfric may not want it but other nords sure want Freedom to worship talos. 2. Who are those milk-drinking high elves to burst into skyrim saying we can't worship talos.

 

[Jeremius]

perhaps. I prefer the simple answer of war making the punishment for illegal border crossing death.

Suspected treason is a simple answer. Since we know the punishment for the Stormcloaks is death and we had Lokir pleading with Ralof to tell the Legion you and him weren't with them, that you're not Stormcloaks.

Seems more logical than assuming illegal border crossing is death. Since if it was death, then it wasn't a mistake and you were supposed to be killed. Since Hadvar and Tullius say it was a mistake and a misunderstanding, crossing the border couldn't have been the crime.

You weren't supposed to be on the cart, but neither were you supposed to be near that ambush.

Or maybe they did not know we were an illegal immigrant? I think it would be easy to mistakenly mistake us for being a stormcloak spy/soldier, and then mistakenly apologize for near-execution in this case.

or the war just made the imperials not want to deport an illegal immigrant when killing the person was easier.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You weren't supposed to be on the cart, but neither were you supposed to be near that ambush.

Or maybe they did not know we were an illegal immigrant? I think it would be easy to mistakenly mistake us for being a stormcloak spy/soldier, and then mistakenly apologize for near-execution in this case.

Being mistakenly accused of treason is logical, since they admit to it being a misunderstanding. It fits with Lokir's pleading and with Hadvar/Tullius admitting it was a mistake/misunderstanding.

or the war just made the imperials not want to deport an illegal immigrant when killing the person was easier.

The Legion doesn't do things the easy way. They don't just execute you cause they can, especially when it is an official summary execution presided over by the Military Governor.

You're making out the Legion will just kill you to save time, Tullius won't break his oath to simply execute an innocent cause he can. Majority of the Imperial Legion are honorable, who take their duty seriously. Which is to protect the citizenry and uphold the law correctly.

 

[Jeremius]

You weren't supposed to be on the cart, but neither were you supposed to be near that ambush.

Or maybe they did not know we were an illegal immigrant? I think it would be easy to mistakenly mistake us for being a stormcloak spy/soldier, and then mistakenly apologize for near-execution in this case.

Being mistakenly accused of treason is logical, since they admit to it being a misunderstanding. It fits with Lokir's pleading and with Hadvar/Tullius admitting it was a mistake/misunderstanding.

or the war just made the imperials not want to deport an illegal immigrant when killing the person was easier.

The Legion doesn't do things the easy way. They don't just execute you cause they can, especially when it is an official summary execution presided over by the Military Governor.

You're making out the Legion will just kill you to save time, Tullius won't break his oath to simply execute an innocent cause he can. Majority of the Imperial Legion are honorable, who take their duty seriously. Which is to protect the citizenry and uphold the law correctly.

They want to end the Civil War, so why would Tullius waste time or men to deal with some lowly person who might be a terrorist for all he knows? General T's job is to put down the rebellion, not protect citizens and uphold the law. He does not even care about skyrim, and was sent to simply put down the rebellion. He does not know who you are or care who you are. Dealing with the rebels and "mistaking" an "innocent" for a traitor saves time and men who can watch Ulfric, as well as doing his ACTUAL job.

Either they did not know, or they did not care, and just lumped you in with the rebels because it was safer than risking the leader of the rebellion escaping. Both easier to swallow than they simply thought you were a stormcloak, and by law, you get your head chopped off. That is how I always justify any legion character I make.

Put yourself in this perspective: you were at the ambush, either as an officer or replacing the General, and you have this nobody who could be a terrorist trying to get away from the law in Cyrodiil, but also Ulfric himself. Are you going to either 1) Let a potential problem go? 2) Interrogate the unknown and risk losing the big prize? or 3) lump the unknown with the recognize and call it a day? I would likely go with three myself.

 

[Anouck]

Churros: Welcome to the thread and a Happy New Year to you.

Why it is true that imperials as much as stormcloaks I have to go with stormcloaks even if they hate other races and ulfric only want to be high king.

What you say here, is that the Stormcloaks being racist is fine but the High Elves discriminating Talos worshipers is not? Racism is equally bad. And if you blame the Thalmor for hunting down Talos worshipers you can't possibly be taken seriously if you build a Grey Quarter for the Dunmer to live in. Picking who you can or can not discriminate is discrimination in its purest form, my friend.

Also, you say that Ulfric only wants to be High King. So I assume you are not really impressed by him as a leader? Why would you follow a man who, in the end, only fights because he wants to usurp the throne? Don't you think that if this is his primary goal, he will go out of his way to accomplish it? Even if that means he has to neglect the Stormcloak ideology? A leader fights for a cause, and if that cause is not free worship of Talos but power, then the Civil War will only be used as a tool for Ulfric to get that power.

The reason so is because 1.Ulfric may not want it but other nords sure want Freedom to worship talos.

Everyone wants free worship of Talos, except for the Aldmeri Dominion. Even the Imperial Legion wants it. What you fail to understand, is that the the outlaw of Talos worshiping is something that had to be done. Let me explain it to you.

During the Great War the Imperial Legion almost got crushed by the Aldmeri Dominion. They had two options: fighting until the last soldier would get killed or signing a peace treaty.
Option one would mean that more people would die. It would mean that many soldiers (Ulfric was a soldier himself back then) would have to fight a battle they could not possibly win. It would also mean that the Aldmeri Dominion would completely crush the Empire, which would give them the right to do with us what ever they want.
Option two would mean that you have to sign a peace treaty. This means the war stops and you have time to regain strength and rebuild your army. It would give the Imperial Legion a second chance to win the war and lives would be spared.

You have to understand that the Aldmeri Dominion was winning. If we would get beaten by them, they would have the right to do with us whatever they want. They would've wiped out all our forces and we would be defenseless against them. We would be dependent on their mercy. And believe me, they are not very merciful.
Of course the White-Gold Concordat (the peace treaty) was in favor of the Aldmeri Dominion. But that was obvious since we had to sign the treaty. If you'd make up a treaty, would you do that in your enemy's favor or your own favor?
One of the things in the treaty, was that the worship of Talos would get outlawed. Did the Imperials or the Emperor like this? No. But they didn't have much of a choice. They had to sign a peace treaty, otherwise they would've been wiped off the face of the planet by the Thalmor

2. Who are those milk-drinking high elves to burst into skyrim saying we can't worship talos.

Who they are? A powerful military force that has kicked our ass? Whether you like it or not; back then, the Thalmor were much more powerful than the Empire. Hence why we could not fight them at that point.
The reason why the Thalmor want Talos worship to be banned, is because the Altmeri religion forms the basis for most of the other religious practices on the continent, primarily due to its widespread acceptance prior to the advent of human civilization. It is generally assumed that the Altmer pantheon derives directly from the original gods of the Aldmer.
To them, worshiping a mortal like he is a God, is a violation of their pantheon. This is most likely why it means so much to them.

You have to understand that we were about to lose a war. So every outcome would've been negative. Fighting on would have been negative, signing the treaty would've been negative. They had to chose the best out of two evils. And the treaty was the best one.
Stormcloak victory: temporary solution. Yes, you can worship Talos again, but it would also mean violation of the White-Gold Concordat. And then we would be one independent province against a big army force. No Empire to help or aid us. A rebellion doesn't stand a chance against the entire Aldmeri Dominion. You'd also weaken the Empire right before it wants to go back to war again.
Imperial victory: long term solution. We sign the treaty now, regain strength and rebuild our armies, and kick the Thalmor out of Skyrim for once and for all.

 

[DrunkenMage]

They want to end the Civil War, so why would Tullius waste time or men to deal with some lowly person who might be a terrorist for all he knows?

So now you're a terrorist? Being mistakenly accused for treason is actually the most logical thing, going by what both the Stormcloaks and Imperials are saying before and just after Helgen. I don't know why it is so hard for you to accept.

General T's job is to put down the rebellion, not protect citizens and uphold the law. He does not even care about skyrim, and was sent to simply put down the rebellion.

That in itself is a contradiction since putting down the rebellion is upholding the law. Also it is part of his duty, everything we know lore wise about the Legion and even things in-game are telling you. The Legion is there to uphold the law, all Legate's tell you their mission is to "Serve the Emperor. Uphold the law. Protect the citizenry."

General Tullius' dialogue the moment he enters the Palace of the Kings to confront Ulfric also backs the fact he is there to uphold the law.

"Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire."

General Tullius doesn't understand Nordic culture, by the end of the war he comes to respect it.

He does not know who you are or care who you are. Dealing with the rebels and "mistaking" an "innocent" for a traitor saves time and men who can watch Ulfric, as well as doing his ACTUAL job.

It isn't about saving time, you're mistaken for a traitor. It was a misunderstanding, but you don't want to accept that. You keep trying to make out the Legion simply wants to kill you because they can. Both sides make mistakes and accidentally kill innocents, if you want to make out the Legion are the monsters. I can also do the exact same to the Stormcloaks when they're accused of committing a massacre.

His actual job is the Military Governor, his duty is to uphold the law, restore order. Then govern until Skyrim is able to be back to normal. (Which he hands political duties over to Legate Rikke at the end of the war, making her the de facto ruler of Skyrim.)

Either they did not know, or they did not care, and just lumped you in with the rebels because it was safer than risking the leader of the rebellion escaping. Both easier to swallow than they simply thought you were a stormcloak, and by law, you get your head chopped off. That is how I always justify any legion character I make.

It isn't easier to swallow though. Something that isn't supported by both the Legion and the Stormcloaks prior to Helgen and just after Helgen.

Put yourself in this perspective: you were at the ambush, either as an officer or replacing the General, and you have this nobody who could be a terrorist trying to get away from the law in Cyrodiil, but also Ulfric himself. Are you going to either 1) Let a potential problem go? 2) Interrogate the unknown and risk losing the big prize? or 3) lump the unknown with the recognize and call it a day? I would likely go with three myself.

You were caught in the same ambush, it would of been logical to mistakenly assume the player was with the Stormcloaks. Because the ambush was between the Stormcloaks and the Legion. The Legion would of rounded up everyone they captured as Stormcloaks, why? It was the plan, they were there to ambush and capture the Stormcloaks, or kill them if they didn't surrender. Why is it so hard to see that? You just assume the player was with the Stormcloaks, same as Lokir. Why? Because they walked into the ambush the same as the Stormcloaks. During the confusion you must of been too close to be in the radius, thus you were picked up also.

You keep trying to make out the Legion is killing you because you could be everything else except a Stormcloak. Which isn't very logical, it is a very simple conclusion. You're just throwing out crazy opinions and far fetched things, anything than to just say "Yeah it was most likely I was thought to have been with the Stormcloaks."

Going on about being a terrorist, or this being easier. It simply isn't backed up, everything Lokir is saying is suggesting you and him are thought to be Stormcloaks.

 

[Jeremius]

They want to end the Civil War, so why would Tullius waste time or men to deal with some lowly person who might be a terrorist for all he knows?

So now you're a terrorist? Being mistakenly accused for treason is actually the most logical thing, going by what both the Stormcloaks and Imperials are saying before and just after Helgen. I don't know why it is so hard for you to accept.

General T's job is to put down the rebellion, not protect citizens and uphold the law. He does not even care about skyrim, and was sent to simply put down the rebellion.

That in itself is a contradiction since putting down the rebellion is upholding the law. Also it is part of his duty, everything we know lore wise about the Legion and even things in-game are telling you. The Legion is there to uphold the law, all Legate's tell you their mission is to "Serve the Emperor. Uphold the law. Protect the citizenry."

General Tullius' dialogue the moment he enters the Palace of the Kings to confront Ulfric also backs the fact he is there to uphold the law.

"Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire."

General Tullius doesn't understand Nordic culture, by the end of the war he comes to respect it.

He does not know who you are or care who you are. Dealing with the rebels and "mistaking" an "innocent" for a traitor saves time and men who can watch Ulfric, as well as doing his ACTUAL job.

It isn't about saving time, you're mistaken for a traitor. It was a misunderstanding, but you don't want to accept that. You keep trying to make out the Legion simply wants to kill you because they can. Both sides make mistakes and accidentally kill innocents, if you want to make out the Legion are the monsters. I can also do the exact same to the Stormcloaks when they're accused of committing a massacre.

His actual job is the Military Governor, his duty is to uphold the law, restore order. Then govern until Skyrim is able to be back to normal. (Which he hands political duties over to Legate Rikke at the end of the war, making her the de facto ruler of Skyrim.)

Either they did not know, or they did not care, and just lumped you in with the rebels because it was safer than risking the leader of the rebellion escaping. Both easier to swallow than they simply thought you were a stormcloak, and by law, you get your head chopped off. That is how I always justify any legion character I make.

It isn't easier to swallow though. Something that isn't supported by both the Legion and the Stormcloaks prior to Helgen and just after Helgen.

Put yourself in this perspective: you were at the ambush, either as an officer or replacing the General, and you have this nobody who could be a terrorist trying to get away from the law in Cyrodiil, but also Ulfric himself. Are you going to either 1) Let a potential problem go? 2) Interrogate the unknown and risk losing the big prize? or 3) lump the unknown with the recognize and call it a day? I would likely go with three myself.

You were caught in the same ambush, it would of been logical to mistakenly assume the player was with the Stormcloaks. Because the ambush was between the Stormcloaks and the Legion. The Legion would of rounded up everyone they captured as Stormcloaks, why? It was the plan, they were there to ambush and capture the Stormcloaks, or kill them if they didn't surrender. Why is it so hard to see that? You just assume the player was with the Stormcloaks, same as Lokir. Why? Because they walked into the ambush the same as the Stormcloaks. During the confusion you must of been too close to be in the radius, thus you were picked up also.

You keep trying to make out the Legion is killing you because you could be everything else except a Stormcloak. Which isn't very logical, it is a very simple conclusion. You're just throwing out crazy opinions and far fetched things, anything than to just say "Yeah it was most likely I was thought to have been with the Stormcloaks."

Going on about being a terrorist, or this being easier. It simply isn't backed up, everything Lokir is saying is suggesting you and him are thought to be Stormcloaks.

I would agree, HAD IT NOT BEEN CLEARLY STATED IN THE LINK I GAVE YOU THAT TULLIUS WAS SENT SIMPLY TO END THE REBELLION. Some would consider that protecting the citizenry, and upholding the law. I see it for what it is, he is sent there to end the stormcloak rebellion and that is it. the fact that has little interest in the culture when the game begins makes it clear to me that he does not care about the citizens, and would let the dragons slaughter countless lives just to crush the rebellion.

just catching me in the same ambush as the rebels does not really give enough, in my mind, to even suspect me of being one. it is just easier for me to justify the start as they just lump me in with the rebels because they did not want to waste time/manpower on some lowly immigrant when they had the leader of the rebellion in their hands.

 

[Anouck]

I would agree, HAD IT NOT BEEN CLEARLY STATED IN THE LINK I GAVE YOU THAT TULLIUS WAS SENT SIMPLY TO END THE REBELLION. Some would consider that protecting the citizenry, and upholding the law. I see it for what it is, he is sent there to end the stormcloak rebellion and that is it.

I assume that I should read that like you're yelling because you typed in full caps to get your point across...

What you are basically saying, is that the Imperial Legion (who could be compared to the police/army in our society) are not meant to follow the law and protect the citizens? A government institution that goes after criminals and tries to keep the Empire safe is not supposed to follow the law themselves? I don't even see how that works in your head. When talking about the authorities, they are the authorities. They are basically the long arm of the law and have to make sure the law is being followed by the citizens.
You think his only job is to end the rebellion. Why do you think he has to end the Stormcloak rebellion? Because a rebellion is a threat to the Empire and her citizens.
I remember that in our previous debate you first implied the captain was doing something illegal by executing you. After you learned the procedure was actually legal you were talking about how stupid that law is.
Then how come that you are now implying that those same people, the Captain, Tullius or any other member of the Legion, is not supposed to follow the law? Do you really think that the Tamriel law applies to everyone except them?

the fact that has little interest in the culture when the game begins makes it clear to me that he does not care about the citizens, and would let the dragons slaughter countless lives just to crush the rebellion.

You have to realize the Empire is very close to going at war with the Aldmeri Dominion again. The very last thing they need, is losing manpower. Do you remember one of the reasons why they signed the White-Gold Concordat? To regain strength and rebuild the army. Then why on earth wouldn't they care about people being killed in the attempts to capture Ulfric? Let's quote some of that link you posted: "Tullius also despises the Thalmor, and believes the Stormcloak Rebellion is a mere interlude in the Empire's real conflict with the Aldmeri Dominion. He believes the entire rebellion can be blamed on the Thalmor, who stirred it up to force the Empire to waste precious resources and soldiers". This would go against the idea that Tullius doesn't care about people being killed.

I am rather surprised that you draw that massive conclusion from a thing as small as not being interested in culture? Tullius was stationed in Skyrim; he did not make the decision to go there. You can't expect someone to magically like every place they are being send to.
According to your logic, a police officer who is stationed in another city, would rather get the citizens shot because he wasn't interested in their culture and refused to visit the local museum.
You don't have to like the province or be interested in a culture in order to do your job. Nor do you have to be interested in a culture in order to want the best for the people.
I also don't see the link between the dragons and the Civil War. Why does Tullius going after Ulfric have anything to do with dragons slaughtering people? What can he do to prevent a dragon (who does not obey to anyone) to stop from burning down villages?
But if the whole culture thing is so important to you, this quote from the link you posted might comfort you a little: "He initially holds little interest in Nordic culture, viewing it as nonsense, but eventually he learns to respect it"

just catching me in the same ambush as the rebels does not really give enough, in my mind, to even suspect me of being one. it is just easier for me to justify the start as they just lump me in with the rebels because they did not want to waste time/manpower on some lowly immigrant when they had the leader of the rebellion in their hands.

Do you think it saves time to kill an extra prisoner? Or do you think it saves time to let the poor man go?
I understand the circumstances in which you were caught are in your mind not enough to suspect you, but what is going on in your mind is not really relevant. At least not in the game. And not to mention the fact we can only guess what those circumstances were.
I also find it weird to justify it the way you do. The whole 'I don't want to waste time, and that is more important than executing an innocent man' doesn't sound like a good way to justify this.
The best way to justify it, and this is what actually happened, is that you got arrested because you walked into an ambush. When you appeared in front of the captain, she did not know the 'rest of the story'. All she knew was that this was a prisoners convoy heading for execution. It was not her job to judge whether you were innocent or not, but to guide you to the block. Add the whole 'guilty until innocent' to the list, and you can come to the conclusion that you were the victim of a lot of bad luck, bad timing and being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Jeremius]

I would agree, HAD IT NOT BEEN CLEARLY STATED IN THE LINK I GAVE YOU THAT TULLIUS WAS SENT SIMPLY TO END THE REBELLION. Some would consider that protecting the citizenry, and upholding the law. I see it for what it is, he is sent there to end the stormcloak rebellion and that is it.

I assume that I should read that like you're yelling because you typed in full caps to get your point across...

What you are basically saying, is that the Imperial Legion (who could be compared to the police/army in our society) are not meant to follow the law and protect the citizens? A government institution that goes after criminals and tries to keep the Empire safe is not supposed to follow the law themselves? I don't even see how that works in your head. When talking about the authorities, they are the authorities. They are basically the long arm of the law and have to make sure the law is being followed by the citizens.
You think his only job is to end the rebellion. Why do you think he has to end the Stormcloak rebellion? Because a rebellion is a threat to the Empire and her citizens.
I remember that in our previous debate you first implied the captain was doing something illegal by executing you. After you learned the procedure was actually legal you were talking about how stupid that law is.
Then how come that you are now implying that those same people, the Captain, Tullius or any other member of the Legion, is not supposed to follow the law? Do you really think that the Tamriel law applies to everyone except them?

the fact that has little interest in the culture when the game begins makes it clear to me that he does not care about the citizens, and would let the dragons slaughter countless lives just to crush the rebellion.

You have to realize the Empire is very close to going at war with the Aldmeri Dominion again. The very last thing they need, is losing manpower. Do you remember one of the reasons why they signed the White-Gold Concordat? To regain strength and rebuild the army. Then why on earth wouldn't they care about people being killed in the attempts to capture Ulfric? Let's quote some of that link you posted: "Tullius also despises the Thalmor, and believes the Stormcloak Rebellion is a mere interlude in the Empire's real conflict with the Aldmeri Dominion. He believes the entire rebellion can be blamed on the Thalmor, who stirred it up to force the Empire to waste precious resources and soldiers". This would go against the idea that Tullius doesn't care about people being killed.

I am rather surprised that you draw that massive conclusion from a thing as small as not being interested in culture? Tullius was stationed in Skyrim; he did not make the decision to go there. You can't expect someone to magically like every place they are being send to.
According to your logic, a police officer who is stationed in another city, would rather get the citizens shot because he wasn't interested in their culture and refused to visit the local museum.
You don't have to like the province or be interested in a culture in order to do your job. Nor do you have to be interested in a culture in order to want the best for the people.
I also don't see the link between the dragons and the Civil War. Why does Tullius going after Ulfric have anything to do with dragons slaughtering people? What can he do to prevent a dragon (who does not obey to anyone) to stop from burning down villages?
But if the whole culture thing is so important to you, this quote from the link you posted might comfort you a little: "He initially holds little interest in Nordic culture, viewing it as nonsense, but eventually he learns to respect it"

just catching me in the same ambush as the rebels does not really give enough, in my mind, to even suspect me of being one. it is just easier for me to justify the start as they just lump me in with the rebels because they did not want to waste time/manpower on some lowly immigrant when they had the leader of the rebellion in their hands.

Do you think it saves time to kill an extra prisoner? Or do you think it saves time to let the poor man go?
I understand the circumstances in which you were caught are in your mind not enough to suspect you, but what is going on in your mind is not really relevant. At least not in the game. And not to mention the fact we can only guess what those circumstances were.
I also find it weird to justify it the way you do. The whole 'I don't want to waste time, and that is more important than executing an innocent man' doesn't sound like a good way to justify it.
The best way to justify it, and this is what happened, is that you got arrested because you walked into an ambush. When you appeared in front of the captain, she did not know the 'rest of the story'. All she knew was that this was a prisoners convoy heading for execution. It was not her job to judge whether you were innocent or not, but to guide you to the block. Add the whole 'guilty until innocent' to the list, and you can come to the conclusion that you were the victim of a lot of bad luck, bad timing and being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Like I said, it is just easier for me to justify what the Imperials are doing by saying they are simply lumping me in with the rebels rather than actually dealing with me.

But that is just me,and you do not need to agree or care about what I say, just because it is easier for me to justify what the Imps do to me as "They lumped me in with the rebels so as to be able to more easily end the stormcloaks than risk the rebel Jarl escaping their grasp, and Tullius looking incompetent."

 

[NENALATA]

Gen Tullius should have just killed Ulfric right then and there... Ulfric likes to go on and on about "being a true Nord"... then he should have died like one. Course a true Nord would never surrender. Unfort this also means you might have been killed too.

 

[Anouck]

Gen Tullius should have just killed Ulfric right then and there... Ulfric likes to go on and on about "being a true Nord"... then he should have died like one. Course a true Nord would never surrender. Unfort this also means you might have been killed too.

Isn't it typical? People giving an endless speech before killing someone so they actually have the time of the world to escape or be saved? It would indeed be more efficient if Ulfric would've been executed first. But I also understand the message Tullius tries to send out to the others. By making Ulfric watch how his men get decapitated, he realizes that this is all because of him.

But the Thalmor were there to delay the execution so Ulfric could've been saved. We all know the Dominion gains from the Civil War that is waging in Skyrim. They were talking to General Tullius as the convoy arrived in Helgen, and it is possibly they had something to do with it.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I would agree, HAD IT NOT BEEN CLEARLY STATED IN THE LINK I GAVE YOU THAT TULLIUS WAS SENT SIMPLY TO END THE REBELLION.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, in saying you have no clue what is the job of the Imperial Legion. Tullius wasn't sent to simply end the rebellion, he was also made the Military Governor. The Legions job is to end the rebellion, restore order. All of the Legion Legate's tell you their mission is to "Serve the Emperor. Uphold the law. Protect the Citizenry."

The uesp page on Tullius is giving information about him. It also links you to other things, such as information about what the Legion does.

'The most disciplined and effective military force in history, the Imperial Legions preserve the peace and rule of law in the Empire. At need, the legion garrisons can be swiftly mobilized to protect against invasions or internal disorders' - Ordo Legionis

You're saying that Tullius as a Legion General, Military Governor in Skyrim. Who he himself when gives you the oath tells you it binds you to the service of the Emperor and every citizen of the Empire. His job is to actually go against everything the Legion stands for lore wise? And even in-game wise?

Some would consider that protecting the citizenry, and upholding the law. I see it for what it is, he is sent there to end the stormcloak rebellion and that is it. the fact that has little interest in the culture when the game begins makes it clear to me that he does not care about the citizens, and would let the dragons slaughter countless lives just to crush the rebellion.

It is upholding the law, treason is last time I checked a crime.

'Imperials believe Skyrim is a part of the Empire, and must follow its laws and customs.' - Skyrim Loading Screen

He was sent to end the rebellion, but he was also made the Military Governor. It is his job to restore order too.

You can be arrested even by a Legion soldier escorting a Noble. The Legion are upholding the law. You're ignoring everything lore and in-game information is telling you about the Imperial Legions.

Tullius doesn't care about Nordic culture, so it makes him not caring about the citizens? Tullius doesn't understand Nordic culture, but he actually cared enough about it to have someone who does know it, as his second in command. Just because Tullius doesn't understand Nordic culture, doesn't suddenly make him not caring about his duty to the citizenry.

He's frustrated over Nordic culture, because in his mind it doesn't make sense. "You've been here long enough to know that Nords aren't always sensible." - Rikke, to General Tullius

Tullius does care about the dragon situation, but he makes it clear he wasn't sent to fight dragons. He does care about the citizens, the very first command Tullius gives when Alduin arrives is "Get the civilians to safety" that was his very first order. Now if he didn't care about the citizens, why would it be his first command when the first dragon appears for the first time in a very long time?

His first instinct, was to protect the citizens. Also if you run up to Tullius during dragon attack, he yells at you to run. He's telling the player to get to safety, while he and the Legionnaires are holding the dragon back as best they can, until everyone gets to safety.

just catching me in the same ambush as the rebels does not really give enough, in my mind, to even suspect me of being one. it is just easier for me to justify the start as they just lump me in with the rebels because they did not want to waste time/manpower on some lowly immigrant when they had the leader of the rebellion in their hands.

You were caught and thought to have been with the rebels, it isn't exactly a hard concept. If you have an ambush, and you're rounding up rebels in the confusion you also caught the player. You'd most likely just assume he was with them.

How you want to justify something is up to you. However it isn't exactly supported by what everyone is telling you. You're saying they didn't want to waste time with you and just kill you for the hell of it. How does that even justify things? Because if they didn't want to waste time with you, they knew they were going to execute you. Then they wouldn't of been saying you shouldn't of been there, and it was a misunderstanding. Also it means ignoring Lokir's pleadings.

 

[DrunkenMage]

But the Thalmor were there to delay the execution so Ulfric could've been saved. We all know the Dominion gains from the Civil War that is waging in Skyrim. They were talking to General Tullius as the convoy arrived in Helgen, and it is possibly they had something to do with it.

He probably would of wanted to execute Elenwen too, if he could of found a way for it to not cause such a headache and a diplomatic incident.

 

[Anouck]

But the Thalmor were there to delay the execution so Ulfric could've been saved. We all know the Dominion gains from the Civil War that is waging in Skyrim. They were talking to General Tullius as the convoy arrived in Helgen, and it is possibly they had something to do with it.

He probably would of wanted to execute Elenwen too, if he could of found a way for it to not cause such a headache and a diplomatic incident.

True.

Do you happen to know if there is any lore that tells about why Ulfric wasn't the first one to be executed? My best guess would indeed be that the Thalmor had something to do with it...