Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Sven]

Well its not a proper example to give lowlife such as the Thieves guild and the Dark brotherhood as a showcase for all Nords.And they are not Atheists.The thieves in all the TES series worship Nocturnal.Not related,just pointing it out.

There is a famous saying that it is the painting people look at,not the frame.What that means is even if there are a few different ones,its the majority that makes the big picture,and those 'ones' don't matter.


As for why the High Elves see Talos as their traitor,see here:

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

1. Elaborate. This is far too vague to make sense of.

there is nothing more to debate. things in this thread (I have been here for a long time lurking) have been discussed here and elsewhere. I see nothing new here and I see nothing that warrants any more debate. What we decide for our games does not mean a thing for the guy sitting next to us. if people get that through their thick skulls, then there might be room on threads for more meaningful threads.

sorry for the tirade, I just hate that threads like this keep popping up every forum that is about Skyrim.

For someone who doesn't see the point of a thread, you participated in it pretty long. And you have been trying to convince others of your point, just like everybody else.

I agree with you that it is up to everyone to decide what side they pick. I have Thalmor characters, Stormcloak characters and I even used to have a Forsworn.
..But if you are actually are going to take a look at the debate, you can see evidence and facts that back up certain factions or proof that a cause is wrong or invalid. You can, like the Dunmer-discrimination debate, lift it up to a moral discussion where you use in-game anecdotes and examples to talk about something that actually is important.

people talk about facts and lore like it is the all-encompassing choice-maker, especially in the civil war which is a debate of OPINIONS, where lore and facts are set on the back burner to the person's biases.

Like the dunmer situation, it might be based on race, but at least the race in question is not suffering as bad the same as other race like the Khajit or Argonians, who are not even allowed in the city to begin with. IF the Stormcloaks were truly racist/xenophobic, they or there supporters would actually be doing something. The Dunmer should be grateful the Nords let them live in the city at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races. So, letting Dunmer have a place that might have been the only real place for them all in the first place is racist? good to know.

here is how a conversation about the grey quarter should go:

Dunmer rep: We need help making the Grey Quarter look representable.

Ulfric: So?

Dunmer Rep: If you help us, we will help you fight for skyrim.

Ulfric: How could you help my people fight for their rights?

Dunmer Rep: Our people are naturally talented at the skills of combat and with a little training, some of us could help you as spies or assassins.

Ulfric: I cannot help you personally, but I will see to it that someone with extra money can front some to help you fix your homes up.

Dunmer Rep: Thanks, Jarl Ulfric.

(This is the last time I will EVER discuss the grey quarter with anyone. to me, the Dunmer have it made compared to the Argonians and Khajit)

 

[Anouck]

people talk about facts and lore like it is the all-encompassing choice-maker, especially in the civil war which is a debate of OPINIONS, where lore and facts are set on the back burner to the person's biases.

Guess what: The majority of all the things on this forum is about opinions. 'What skills are important for my vampire built?', 'Things you hate about Skyrim', 'Should I side with Paathurnax or the Blades?' 'Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?'.
If you don't like opinions being shared and criticized, I have bad news for you. Because that is exactly what a forum is about. Asking others what they think, then sharing your opinion and maybe having a discussion on why you think someone else could share your opinion. If you don't like that, you basically dislike what is considered the spine of a forum.

Nobody asks you to participate in this thread. No one here PM's you or goes to your profile to spam you with messages like 'Hey Jeremy, come back to the Imperial/Stormcloak thread!'. If you dislike it, you are allowed to stop participating. But don't participate in the debate while using the 'we shouldn't debate on this, this is a debate about opinions' argument.
There are several posts where you say this. And it is an understandable point of view. But what kind of makes the argument irrelevant, is that you, in meanwhile, are replying to others and debating on why your opinion is better than theirs. I had to spend several posts on a debate with you about racism. I never asked you to debate with me on that. And that is fine, I enjoy debating. But then you pull the 'this is a debate about opinions' card again. What you make it look like right now, is that you try to defend the Stormcloak side (which is fine) but as soon as there is an argument you can't respond to (for instance: because the other person made a very strong point against you and you don't know how to defend your cause), you say the debate is irrelevant anyway because it is about opinions and preferences. Do you see the error in that?

...And if you still wonder why some people think this is a weird subject to debate about...
Not everyone is like 'Hey, lets join the Imperials' or 'Hey, I side with Ulfric'. People want to hear arguments and other people's opinions in order to make up their own mind. And the 'veterans' on the forums who picked a side long ago, like to dive more into the debate because they happen to be interested in it. And if you don't share that interest, you are free to hit the little red button in the upper right corner of your screen.

Like the dunmer situation, it might be based on race, but at least the race in question is not suffering as bad the same as other race like the Khajit or Argonians, who are not even allowed in the city to begin with. IF the Stormcloaks were truly racist/xenophobic, they or there supporters would actually be doing something. The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races. So, letting Dunmer have a place that might have been the only real place for them all in the first place is racist? good to know.

"The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all". Oooh that line. The Dunmer should be grateful that those amazing Nords let them live in their cities! Why? What privilege do the Nords have to judge someone based on his/her race? And why should they be grateful for getting treated like plops? Because some other race is getting a worse treatment?
What are you trying to imply; that racism is okay as long as there is someone else who has it worse? What if people would do that in modern day society? "You got denied for a job because of your skin color? Well, the Jews got massacred during WWII so you should be grateful we don't do that to you". Do you now realize how idiotic this sounds? Like people stated before: Racism doesn't have to be extreme in order to be racism. Racism doesn't have to be extreme in order to be wrong.
Maybe I should come up with an example that applies more to this particular subject? Take a look at this, Jeremy..

The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races.

This is your post, aye? Lets change a few nouns a bit...

The Nords should be grateful the Aldmeri Dominion lets them worship their own Gods at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races.

If you actually hold this view, you're not better than the Thalmor...

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

people talk about facts and lore like it is the all-encompassing choice-maker, especially in the civil war which is a debate of OPINIONS, where lore and facts are set on the back burner to the person's biases.

Guess what: The majority of all the things on this forum is about opinions. 'What skills are important for my vampire built?', 'Things you hate about Skyrim', 'Should I side with Paathurnax or the Blades?' 'Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?'.
If you don't like opinions being shared and criticized, I have bad news for you. Because that is exactly what a forum is about. Asking others what they think, then sharing your opinion and maybe having a discussion on why you think someone else could share your opinion. If you don't like that, you basically dislike what is considered the spine of a forum.

Nobody asks you to participate in this thread. No one here PM's you or goes to your profile to spam you with messages like 'Hey Sven, come back to the Imperial/Stormcloak thread!'. If you dislike it, you are allowed to stop participating. But don't participate in the debate while using the 'we shouldn't debate on this, this is a debate about opinions' argument.
There are several posts where you say this. And it is an understandable point of view. But what kind of makes the argument irrelevant, is that you, in meanwhile, are replying to others and debating on why your opinion is better than theirs. I had to spend several posts on a debate with you about racism. I never asked you to debate with me on that. And that is fine, I enjoy debating. But then you pull the 'this is a debate about opinions' card again. What you make it look like right now, is that you try to defend the Stormcloak side (which is fine) but as soon as there is an argument you can't respond to (for instance: because the other person made a very strong point against you and you don't know how to defend your cause), you say the debate is irrelevant anyway because it is about opinions and preferences. Do you see the error in that?

...And if you still wonder why some people think this is a weird subject to debate about...
Not everyone is like 'Hey, lets join the Imperials' or 'Hey, I side with Ulfric'. People want to hear arguments and other people's opinions in order to make up their own mind. And the 'veterans' on the forums who picked a side long ago, like to dive more into the debate because they happen to be interested in it. And if you don't share that interest, you are free to hit the little red button in the upper right corner of your screen.

Like the dunmer situation, it might be based on race, but at least the race in question is not suffering as bad the same as other race like the Khajit or Argonians, who are not even allowed in the city to begin with. IF the Stormcloaks were truly racist/xenophobic, they or there supporters would actually be doing something. The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races. So, letting Dunmer have a place that might have been the only real place for them all in the first place is racist? good to know.

"The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all". Oooh that line. The Dunmer should be grateful that those amazing Nords let them live in their cities! Why? What privilege do the Nords have to judge someone based on his/her race? And why should they be grateful for getting treated like pl***? Because some other race is getting a worse treatment?
What are you trying to imply; that racism is okay as long as there is someone else who has it worse? What if people would do that in modern day society? "You got denied for a job because of your skin color? Well, the Jews got massacred during WWII so you should be grateful we don't do that to you". Do you now realize how idiotic this sounds? Like people stated before: Racism doesn't have to be extreme in order to be racism. Racism doesn't have to be extreme in order to be wrong.
Maybe I should come up with an example that applies more to this particular subject? Take a look at this, Sven..

The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races.

This is your post, aye? Lets change a few nouns in a bit...

The Nords should be grateful the Aldmeri Dominion lets them worship their own Gods at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races.

1) The Thalmor thing is a bold-faced lie. and 2) Look at all the blessings the Dunmer get from the Nords of Windhelm:

They get to live in actual houses, that have warm beds and fires to keep warm

They get to provide for themselves, their friends and their families by running shops and farming.

these two things look much better that petty racial segregation that also likely has a problem with both sides being generally unhelpful to the other.

Racism can also be rational as well.

 

[Mighty Pecan Pie]

people talk about facts and lore like it is the all-encompassing choice-maker, especially in the civil war which is a debate of OPINIONS, where lore and facts are set on the back burner to the person's biases.

Guess what: The majority of all the things on this forum is about opinions. 'What skills are important for my vampire built?', 'Things you hate about Skyrim', 'Should I side with Paathurnax or the Blades?' 'Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?'.
If you don't like opinions being shared and criticized, I have bad news for you. Because that is exactly what a forum is about. Asking others what they think, then sharing your opinion and maybe having a discussion on why you think someone else could share your opinion. If you don't like that, you basically dislike what is considered the spine of a forum.

Nobody asks you to participate in this thread. No one here PM's you or goes to your profile to spam you with messages like 'Hey Sven, come back to the Imperial/Stormcloak thread!'. If you dislike it, you are allowed to stop participating. But don't participate in the debate while using the 'we shouldn't debate on this, this is a debate about opinions' argument.
There are several posts where you say this. And it is an understandable point of view. But what kind of makes the argument irrelevant, is that you, in meanwhile, are replying to others and debating on why your opinion is better than theirs. I had to spend several posts on a debate with you about racism. I never asked you to debate with me on that. And that is fine, I enjoy debating. But then you pull the 'this is a debate about opinions' card again. What you make it look like right now, is that you try to defend the Stormcloak side (which is fine) but as soon as there is an argument you can't respond to (for instance: because the other person made a very strong point against you and you don't know how to defend your cause), you say the debate is irrelevant anyway because it is about opinions and preferences. Do you see the error in that?

...And if you still wonder why some people think this is a weird subject to debate about...
Not everyone is like 'Hey, lets join the Imperials' or 'Hey, I side with Ulfric'. People want to hear arguments and other people's opinions in order to make up their own mind. And the 'veterans' on the forums who picked a side long ago, like to dive more into the debate because they happen to be interested in it. And if you don't share that interest, you are free to hit the little red button in the upper right corner of your screen.

Like the dunmer situation, it might be based on race, but at least the race in question is not suffering as bad the same as other race like the Khajit or Argonians, who are not even allowed in the city to begin with. IF the Stormcloaks were truly racist/xenophobic, they or there supporters would actually be doing something. The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races. So, letting Dunmer have a place that might have been the only real place for them all in the first place is racist? good to know.

"The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all". Oooh that line. The Dunmer should be grateful that those amazing Nords let them live in their cities! Why? What privilege do the Nords have to judge someone based on his/her race? And why should they be grateful for getting treated like pl***? Because some other race is getting a worse treatment?
What are you trying to imply; that racism is okay as long as there is someone else who has it worse? What if people would do that in modern day society? "You got denied for a job because of your skin color? Well, the Jews got massacred during WWII so you should be grateful we don't do that to you". Do you now realize how idiotic this sounds? Like people stated before: Racism doesn't have to be extreme in order to be racism. Racism doesn't have to be extreme in order to be wrong.
Maybe I should come up with an example that applies more to this particular subject? Take a look at this, Sven..

The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races.

This is your post, aye? Lets change a few nouns in a bit...

The Nords should be grateful the Aldmeri Dominion lets them worship their own Gods at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races.

1) The Thalmor thing is a bold-faced lie. and 2) Look at all the blessings the Dunmer get from the Nords of Windhelm:

They get to live in actual houses, that have warm beds and fires to keep warm

They get to provide for themselves, their friends and their families by running shops and farming.

these two things look much better that petty racial segregation that also likely has a problem with both sides being generally unhelpful to the other.

Racism can also be rational as well.

You scare me with that last sentence.. Racism is never rational. NEVER.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Guess what: The majority of all the things on this forum is about opinions. 'What skills are important for my vampire built?', 'Things you hate about Skyrim', 'Should I side with Paathurnax or the Blades?' 'Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?'.
If you don't like opinions being shared and criticized, I have bad news for you. Because that is exactly what a forum is about. Asking others what they think, then sharing your opinion and maybe having a discussion on why you think someone else could share your opinion. If you don't like that, you basically dislike what is considered the spine of a forum.

Nobody asks you to participate in this thread. No one here PM's you or goes to your profile to spam you with messages like 'Hey Sven, come back to the Imperial/Stormcloak thread!'. If you dislike it, you are allowed to stop participating. But don't participate in the debate while using the 'we shouldn't debate on this, this is a debate about opinions' argument.
There are several posts where you say this. And it is an understandable point of view. But what kind of makes the argument irrelevant, is that you, in meanwhile, are replying to others and debating on why your opinion is better than theirs. I had to spend several posts on a debate with you about racism. I never asked you to debate with me on that. And that is fine, I enjoy debating. But then you pull the 'this is a debate about opinions' card again. What you make it look like right now, is that you try to defend the Stormcloak side (which is fine) but as soon as there is an argument you can't respond to (for instance: because the other person made a very strong point against you and you don't know how to defend your cause), you say the debate is irrelevant anyway because it is about opinions and preferences. Do you see the error in that?

...And if you still wonder why some people think this is a weird subject to debate about...
Not everyone is like 'Hey, lets join the Imperials' or 'Hey, I side with Ulfric'. People want to hear arguments and other people's opinions in order to make up their own mind. And the 'veterans' on the forums who picked a side long ago, like to dive more into the debate because they happen to be interested in it. And if you don't share that interest, you are free to hit the little red button in the upper right corner of your screen.

"The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all". Oooh that line. The Dunmer should be grateful that those amazing Nords let them live in their cities! Why? What privilege do the Nords have to judge someone based on his/her race? And why should they be grateful for getting treated like pl***? Because some other race is getting a worse treatment?
What are you trying to imply; that racism is okay as long as there is someone else who has it worse? What if people would do that in modern day society? "You got denied for a job because of your skin color? Well, the Jews got massacred during WWII so you should be grateful we don't do that to you". Do you now realize how idiotic this sounds? Like people stated before: Racism doesn't have to be extreme in order to be racism. Racism doesn't have to be extreme in order to be wrong.
Maybe I should come up with an example that applies more to this particular subject? Take a look at this, Sven..

This is your post, aye? Lets change a few nouns in a bit...

1) The Thalmor thing is a bold-faced lie. and 2) Look at all the blessings the Dunmer get from the Nords of Windhelm:

They get to live in actual houses, that have warm beds and fires to keep warm

They get to provide for themselves, their friends and their families by running shops and farming.

these two things look much better that petty racial segregation that also likely has a problem with both sides being generally unhelpful to the other.

Racism can also be rational as well.

You scare me with that last sentence.. Racism is never rational. NEVER.

if a race gives you a reason to hat that race, is it truly racist?

 

[Mighty Pecan Pie]

1) The Thalmor thing is a bold-faced lie. and 2) Look at all the blessings the Dunmer get from the Nords of Windhelm:

They get to live in actual houses, that have warm beds and fires to keep warm

They get to provide for themselves, their friends and their families by running shops and farming.

these two things look much better that petty racial segregation that also likely has a problem with both sides being generally unhelpful to the other.

Racism can also be rational as well.

You scare me with that last sentence.. Racism is never rational. NEVER.

if a race gives you a reason to hat that race, is it truly racist?

There is never a reason to hate a whole race, I can't help how other Causasian people behave :| So, because Hitler murdered jews, I should now be hated because I'm the same race as Hitler?

And yes, it's truly racist. And bad.

 

[Anouck]

people talk about facts and lore like it is the all-encompassing choice-maker, especially in the civil war which is a debate of OPINIONS, where lore and facts are set on the back burner to the person's biases.

Guess what: The majority of all the things on this forum is about opinions. 'What skills are important for my vampire built?', 'Things you hate about Skyrim', 'Should I side with Paathurnax or the Blades?' 'Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?'.
If you don't like opinions being shared and criticized, I have bad news for you. Because that is exactly what a forum is about. Asking others what they think, then sharing your opinion and maybe having a discussion on why you think someone else could share your opinion. If you don't like that, you basically dislike what is considered the spine of a forum.

Nobody asks you to participate in this thread. No one here PM's you or goes to your profile to spam you with messages like 'Hey Sven, come back to the Imperial/Stormcloak thread!'. If you dislike it, you are allowed to stop participating. But don't participate in the debate while using the 'we shouldn't debate on this, this is a debate about opinions' argument.
There are several posts where you say this. And it is an understandable point of view. But what kind of makes the argument irrelevant, is that you, in meanwhile, are replying to others and debating on why your opinion is better than theirs. I had to spend several posts on a debate with you about racism. I never asked you to debate with me on that. And that is fine, I enjoy debating. But then you pull the 'this is a debate about opinions' card again. What you make it look like right now, is that you try to defend the Stormcloak side (which is fine) but as soon as there is an argument you can't respond to (for instance: because the other person made a very strong point against you and you don't know how to defend your cause), you say the debate is irrelevant anyway because it is about opinions and preferences. Do you see the error in that?

...And if you still wonder why some people think this is a weird subject to debate about...
Not everyone is like 'Hey, lets join the Imperials' or 'Hey, I side with Ulfric'. People want to hear arguments and other people's opinions in order to make up their own mind. And the 'veterans' on the forums who picked a side long ago, like to dive more into the debate because they happen to be interested in it. And if you don't share that interest, you are free to hit the little red button in the upper right corner of your screen.

Like the dunmer situation, it might be based on race, but at least the race in question is not suffering as bad the same as other race like the Khajit or Argonians, who are not even allowed in the city to begin with. IF the Stormcloaks were truly racist/xenophobic, they or there supporters would actually be doing something. The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races. So, letting Dunmer have a place that might have been the only real place for them all in the first place is racist? good to know.

"The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all". Oooh that line. The Dunmer should be grateful that those amazing Nords let them live in their cities! Why? What privilege do the Nords have to judge someone based on his/her race? And why should they be grateful for getting treated like pl***? Because some other race is getting a worse treatment?
What are you trying to imply; that racism is okay as long as there is someone else who has it worse? What if people would do that in modern day society? "You got denied for a job because of your skin color? Well, the Jews got massacred during WWII so you should be grateful we don't do that to you". Do you now realize how idiotic this sounds? Like people stated before: Racism doesn't have to be extreme in order to be racism. Racism doesn't have to be extreme in order to be wrong.
Maybe I should come up with an example that applies more to this particular subject? Take a look at this, Sven..

The Dunmer should be grateful the nords let them live in the city at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races.

This is your post, aye? Lets change a few nouns in a bit...

The Nords should be grateful the Aldmeri Dominion lets them worship their own Gods at all, that is by far less racist than what is going on with other races.

1) The Thalmor thing is a bold-faced lie. and 2) Look at all the blessings the Dunmer get from the Nords of Windhelm:

They get to live in actual houses, that have warm beds and fires to keep warm

They get to provide for themselves, their friends and their families by running shops and farming.

these two things look much better that petty racial segregation that also likely has a problem with both sides being generally unhelpful to the other.

Racism can also be rational as well.

'Racism can also be rational as well'​

- Jeremy Stone​

​

You did it, Jeremy. You just crossed the line where you directly justified racism. You just said, without any attempt to sugarcoat it, that racism can be rational as well. At least we established that you recognize this whole thing as racism. But this brings a new problem to the table.. You agree with racism?​

​

And don't use the "the Thalmor thing is a bold-faced lie" argument. In what way is your racism towards the Dunmer 'better' than what the Thalmor are doing? Did you even take a look at your quote? You LITERALLY say the same as the Thalmor do. The only difference is Nords and Talos are not your target; the Dunmer are. The only thing I did, was changing a few nouns. I changed 'Dunmer' to Nord, and added the Talos thing. There is a very thin line between you and the Thalmor, because you basically do the same you accuse them of. And there is no way you can talk yourself out of that, until you come to your senses and see the error in your thinking.​

​

And I don't care that the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter have beds and houses. I don't care that the Nords give them "the privilege of a roof above their head". What is wrong about this argument, is that you imply that the Nords are good for allowing the Dunmer to have that. Wait.. Allowing? Who....the....hell....do.....they......think......they......are? As soon as you say you "allow" another race to have something, you make yourself an authority, because you think you are in the position to allow or forbid someone from another race something. This means you place yourself above them, which makes it racism.​

​

​

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

You scare me with that last sentence.. Racism is never rational. NEVER.

if a race gives you a reason to hat that race, is it truly racist?

There is never a reason to hate a whole race, I can't help how other Causasian people behave :| So, because Hitler murdered jews, I should now be hated because I'm the same race as Hitler?

Here is the thing. ONE Stormcloak hates them visibly because they do not help the stormcloaks. ONE jarl is too busy focusing on the civil war to even care about a murderer in his city. I feel that the Stormcloaks got tired of the Dunmer being on the sidelines and said "your choice, we will be trying to save skyrim from the dominion and weak empire."

I will say ONE MORE TIME: I dislike the racism in Windhelm, but also feel that the Dunmer ARE NOT helping the situation any by staying on the sidelines feeling entitled to help they will not receive unless Ulfric is removed.

 

[Mighty Pecan Pie]

if a race gives you a reason to hat that race, is it truly racist?

There is never a reason to hate a whole race, I can't help how other Causasian people behave :| So, because Hitler murdered jews, I should now be hated because I'm the same race as Hitler?

Here is the thing. ONE Stormcloak hates them visibly because they do not help the stormcloaks. ONE jarl is too busy focusing on the civil war to even care about a murderer in his city. I feel that the Stormcloaks got tired of the Dunmer being on the sidelines and said "your choice, we will be trying to save skyrim from the dominion and weak empire."

I will say ONE MORE TIME: I dislike the racism in Windhelm, but also feel that the Dunmer ARE NOT helping the situation any by staying on the sidelines feeling entitled to help they will not receive unless Ulfric is removed.

What should they do, help people who treat them like crap? I'm sure you wouldn't help people who discriminate you.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

There is never a reason to hate a whole race, I can't help how other Causasian people behave :| So, because Hitler murdered jews, I should now be hated because I'm the same race as Hitler?

Here is the thing. ONE Stormcloak hates them visibly because they do not help the stormcloaks. ONE jarl is too busy focusing on the civil war to even care about a murderer in his city. I feel that the Stormcloaks got tired of the Dunmer being on the sidelines and said "your choice, we will be trying to save skyrim from the dominion and weak empire."

I will say ONE MORE TIME: I dislike the racism in Windhelm, but also feel that the Dunmer ARE NOT helping the situation any by staying on the sidelines feeling entitled to help they will not receive unless Ulfric is removed.

What should they do, help people who treat them like crap? I'm sure you wouldn't help people who discriminate you.

why do they treat them like crap/not even help them out of the kindness of their hearts expecting nothing of the Dunmer to help them?

staying on the sidelines in the heart of the stormcloak rebellion is just as bad as supporting the Empire in that same place

 

[Anouck]

Here is the thing. ONE Stormcloak hates them visibly because they do not help the stormcloaks. ONE jarl is too busy focusing on the civil war to even care about a murderer in his city. I feel that the Stormcloaks got tired of the Dunmer being on the sidelines and said "your choice, we will be trying to save skyrim from the dominion and weak empire."

I will say ONE MORE TIME: I dislike the racism in Windhelm, but also feel that the Dunmer ARE NOT helping the situation any by staying on the sidelines feeling entitled to help they will not receive unless Ulfric is removed.

What should they do, help people who treat them like crap? I'm sure you wouldn't help people who discriminate you.

why do they treat them like crap/not even help them out of the kindness of their hearts expecting nothing of the Dunmer to help them?

staying on the sidelines in the heart of the stormcloak rebellion is just as bad as supporting the Empire in that same place

Finding your opinion so superior that you think you can opress the people who disagree with you, is just as bad as forcing people to stop worhsip Talos. You do exactly the same thing as the Thalmor do.. You happen to have a different target. Instead of Talos you do this to the Dunmer. But it is exactly the same.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

in the end, racism, freedom of religion or whatever, it means absolutely nothing. you can have a bloody argonian/dunmer side with the Stormcloaks and have it be reasonable with a good RP. you can have a racist Nord/Altmer side with the Empire and have it work

Empire=/=want to help all races, and Stormcloaks=/=be racist to all but nords.

 

[Anouck]

in the end, racism, freedom of religion or whatever, it means absolutely nothing. you can have a bloody argonian/dunmer side with the Stormcloaks and have it be reasonable with a good RP. you can have a racist Nord/Altmer side with the Empire and have it work

Empire=/=want to help all races, and Stormcloaks=/=be racist to all but nords.

Yes, it doesn't matter because we are just talking about a game. And if you want to side with the Stormcloaks/Imperials/Thalmor in that game, that is fine. You know why we just had this debate, Jeremy?

Both the Imperials and the Stormcloaks do racist things. The Imperials forbid the Khajiit to enter the cities and the Stormcloaks discriminate the Dunmer. That is both just as wrong. I, as an Imperial, are radically against the Imperials discriminating the Khajiit. That doesn't mean I can't be Imperial. It just means I agree with them, but just not on everything they do.
And you can be a Stormcloak and still think 'I don't like how the Stormcloaks discriminate the Dunmer'. That doesn't make you a bad Stormcloak. What frustrated me, is that you tried to justify it, or make it look better than it was by defending it. That is why we had this debate, Jeremy. Not because you are a Stormcloak, but because you defended their racism against the Dunmer. I hope you understand that now.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

I was talking about the Dominion.

Fourth Era Dominion to be exact.

I love how I'm being used as a vehicle for personal jibes though.

Dear lord...

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

in the end, racism, freedom of religion or whatever, it means absolutely nothing. you can have a bloody argonian/dunmer side with the Stormcloaks and have it be reasonable with a good RP. you can have a racist Nord/Altmer side with the Empire and have it work

Empire=/=want to help all races, and Stormcloaks=/=be racist to all but nords.

Yes, it doesn't matter because we are just talking about a game. And if you want to side with the Stormcloaks/Imperials/Thalmor in that game, that is fine. You know why we just had this debate, Jeremy?

Both the Imperials and the Stormcloaks do racist things. The Imperials forbid the Khajiit to enter the cities and the Stormcloaks discriminate the Dunmer. That is both just as wrong. I, as an Imperial, are radically against the Imperials discriminating the Khajiit. That doesn't mean I can't be Imperial. It just means I agree with them, but just not on everything they do.
And you can be a Stormcloak and still think 'I don't like how the Stormcloaks discriminate the Dunmer'. That doesn't make you a bad Stormcloak. What frustrated me, is that you tried to justify it, or make it look better than it was by defending it. That is why we had this debate, Jeremy. Not because you are a Stormcloak, but because you defended their racism against the Dunmer. I hope you understand that now.

I can "justify racism" with a good RP. I can't justify hating one side because they do racist things without hating the other side fore the same stupid things.

Here is an RP I came up with that might help you understand it: A female Dunmer nightblade had problems with the Thalmor and the Imperials just let it happened/ maybe she lost someone she loved to the Thalmor? Maybe they thought she was a secret Talos-worshiper? Who knows, I can "justify the racism" in windhelm by saying it might be better that way in the long run than to risk problems between the Thalmor and Dunmer on principle. Justifying without justifying, still hates what the Nords did to the Dunmer but admits that it will likely happen no matter how the war turns out.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

I can "justify racism" with a good RP. I can't justify hating one side because they do racist things without hating the other side fore the same stupid things.

Here is an RP I came up with that might help you understand it: A female Dunmer nightblade had problems with the Thalmor and the Imperials just let it happened/ maybe she lost someone she loved to the Thalmor? Maybe they thought she was a secret Talos-worshiper? Who knows, I can "justify the racism" in windhelm by saying it might be better that way in the long run than to risk problems between the Thalmor and Dunmer on principle. Justifying without justifying, still hates what the Nords did to the Dunmer but admits that it will likely happen no matter how the war turns out.

But that makes no sense on a few levels...

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I can "justify racism" with a good RP. I can't justify hating one side because they do racist things without hating the other side fore the same stupid things.

Here is an RP I came up with that might help you understand it: A female Dunmer nightblade had problems with the Thalmor and the Imperials just let it happened/ maybe she lost someone she loved to the Thalmor? Maybe they thought she was a secret Talos-worshiper? Who knows, I can "justify the racism" in windhelm by saying it might be better that way in the long run than to risk problems between the Thalmor and Dunmer on principle. Justifying without justifying, still hates what the Nords did to the Dunmer but admits that it will likely happen no matter how the war turns out.

But that makes no sense on a few levels...

what levels? Moralistic? Dunmer dialogue? Sometimes you have to accept one evil to remove the risk of another, greater evil taking its place.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

More back story. and the fact it wouldn't exist if there were no Stormcloaks.

Why would she have considered worshiping Talos a "man-god" when Dunmer worship their ancestors. Why would the Stormcloaks trust a Dunmer of magical and stealthy leanings? Why would she want to even associate with them? Wouldn't loosing someone to the Thalmor push her to the empire because she would be more accepted and has seen how the empire has stopped a previous Thalmor advance. Why would she even go to Skyrim is she hunting a specific Thalmor?

I mean that is the thing when breaking the mold for RP you have to justify everything with back story or in the plot. I mean in my Honor in Ashes RP I go out and point out why the Dunmer hero is with the Stormcloaks in spite of the racism and mistrust. And I had to factor in that discrimination as I write. now I need to do a better job but I hope you see my point.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

More back story. and the fact it wouldn't exist if there were no Stormcloaks.

Why would she have considered worshiping Talos a "man-god" when Dunmer worship their ancestors. Why would the Stormcloaks trust a Dunmer of magical and stealthy leanings? Why would she want to even associate with them? Wouldn't loosing someone to the Thalmor push her to the empire because she would be more accepted and has seen how the empire has stopped a previous Thalmor advance. Why would she even go to Skyrim is she hunting a specific Thalmor?

I mean that is the thing when breaking the mold for RP you have to justify everything with back story or in the plot. I mean in my Honor in Ashes RP I go out and point out why the Dunmer hero is with the Stormcloaks in spite of the racism and mistrust. And I had to factor in that discrimination as I write. now I need to do a better job but I hope you see my point.

I get it. But it seems that no one on the imperial side seems to point out that the Empire is just as bad as the Stormcloaks. I fail to understand all the praise the Empire gets when both they and the Stormcloaks are two sides of the same coin, both different shades of grey.

The Civil War, in my personal opinion, is a debate about which side is the lesser of two evils. both sides are evil, but that player bias makes one less evil than the other.

and the RP was just an example.