Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Seanu Reaves]

I get it. But it seems that no one on the imperial side seems to point out that the Empire is just as bad as the Stormcloaks. I fail to understand all the praise the Empire gets when both they and the Stormcloaks are two sides of the same coin, both different shades of grey.

The Civil War, in my personal opinion, is a debate about which side is the lesser of two evils. both sides are evil, but that player bias makes one less evil than the other.

and the RP was just an example.

How is the Empire just as bad? And I will never call either evil. The Thalmor are evil. The Dark Brotherhood are Evil. Stormcloaks and Imperials are chaotic and lawful sides of neutral gray. I would say that for modern people Imperials fit more. And before you say you shouldn't apply modern morality. Where do you think modern morality came from? Ancient and Medieval cultures. Morality in actuality has changed very little over the years. The main reason there is more Imperials than Stormcloaks is the faces of the factions. Tulius and Rikke honestly for all their flaws more complex but also overall "good" in terms of morals than Galmar and Ulfric. And I use RP as well. Hell that is why I became a mercenary. I grew tired and stopped caring arguing here for the sake of posts, rep, and the fun of debate. Point is you have to have an argument to argue.

Also honestly for many people. Racism is a pretty major black mark, that while Imperials do have shades of it. It isn't effecting Imperial Policy.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I get it. But it seems that no one on the imperial side seems to point out that the Empire is just as bad as the Stormcloaks. I fail to understand all the praise the Empire gets when both they and the Stormcloaks are two sides of the same coin, both different shades of grey.

The Civil War, in my personal opinion, is a debate about which side is the lesser of two evils. both sides are evil, but that player bias makes one less evil than the other.

and the RP was just an example.

How is the Empire just as bad? And I will never call either evil. The Thalmor are evil. The Dark Brotherhood are Evil. Stormcloaks and Imperials are chaotic and lawful sides of neutral gray. I would say that for modern people Imperials fit more. And before you say you shouldn't apply modern morality. Where do you think modern morality came from? Ancient and Medieval cultures. Morality in actuality has changed very little over the years. The main reason there is more Imperials than Stormcloaks is the faces of the factions. Tulius and Rikke honestly for all their flaws more complex but also overall "good" in terms of morals than Galmar and Ulfric. And I use RP as well. Hell that is why I became a mercenary. I grew tired and stopped caring arguing here for the sake of posts, rep, and the fun of debate. Point is you have to have an argument to argue.

Also honestly for many people. Racism is a pretty major black mark, that while Imperials do have shades of it. It isn't effecting Imperial Policy.

and the stormcloaks are unique because? it is a policy? Newsflash, policy or not, racism is racism and both sides are bad because of it. imperials calling stormcloaks racists is like the pot calling the kettle black. look in the mirror before you say it because your side is just as capable of evil as the enemy.

and you do not have to justify anything with a good RP. noticed how I barely/not even mentioned racism in my RP? I did the RP like that because I threw another reason besides racism to justify the choice. Same as all the stormcloaks everywhere, same as all the Imperials everywhere.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

and the stormcloaks are unique because? it is a policy? Newsflash, policy or not, racism is racism and both sides are bad because of it. imperials calling stormcloaks racists is like the pot calling the kettle black. look in the mirror before you say it because your side is just as capable of evil as the enemy.

and you do not have to justify anything with a good RP. noticed how I barely/not even mentioned racism in my RP? I did the RP like that because I threw another reason besides racism to justify the choice. Same as all the stormcloaks everywhere, same as all the Imperials everywhere.

It is like you ain't listening. Which is fine. But you do have to justify things for good RP. You have to have those factors of the world within your story. If you don't you are just plagiarizing ideas for your own story. Role-playing is just that playing a role within the world. You can't ignore facts about the world because you don't like or care about them. If you are playing the game then fine you are just playing but don't pretend that you are role-playing. I mean I never role-play in game. But whether you are writing or not, role-playing isn't doing your own rules. And it really isn't. It is the North calling the south wrong.

And being capable of the same evil? When you are capable of the same and don't... That is like the definition of be more morally right than the other person. When you have this social "racism" it is bad but since you aren't oppressing anyone over it that is better than blatant oppression. You can call me a "mongrel," "mut," or "foul spawn of unholy unions" because you are just being ignorant and stupid, with very little matter to my life. But when you try to deny me rights because of your hatred that is wrong, why is this so much worse? You are forcing your beliefs and effecting my life. So no it isn't the same. And if you think it is the same then you should really look into it more and read.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

and the stormcloaks are unique because? it is a policy? Newsflash, policy or not, racism is racism and both sides are bad because of it. imperials calling stormcloaks racists is like the pot calling the kettle black. look in the mirror before you say it because your side is just as capable of evil as the enemy.

and you do not have to justify anything with a good RP. noticed how I barely/not even mentioned racism in my RP? I did the RP like that because I threw another reason besides racism to justify the choice. Same as all the stormcloaks everywhere, same as all the Imperials everywhere.

It is like you ain't listening. Which is fine. But you do have to justify things for good RP. You have to have those factors of the world within your story. If you don't you are just plagiarizing ideas for your own story. Role-playing is just that playing a role within the world. You can't ignore facts about the world because you don't like or care about them. If you are playing the game then fine you are just playing but don't pretend that you are role-playing. I mean I never role-play in game. But whether you are writing or not, role-playing isn't doing your own rules. And it really isn't. It is the North calling the south wrong.

And being capable of the same evil? When you are capable of the same and don't... That is like the definition of be more morally right than the other person. When you have this social "racism" it is bad but since you aren't oppressing anyone over it that is better than blatant oppression. You can call me a "mongrel," "mut," or "foul spawn of unholy unions" because you are just being ignorant and stupid, with very little matter to my life. But when you try to deny me rights because of your hatred that is wrong, why is this so much worse? You are forcing your beliefs and effecting my life. So no it isn't the same. And if you think it is the same then you should really look into it more and read.

It is imperials calling stormcloaks racist because of stupid policy that means nothing to a good RP. I do not need to justify racism if a Dunmer character sides with the Stormcloaks because they agree with the cause more than the actions.

you act like you only see certain words and blind yourself to the meaning. And by RP, i do not mean playing A dunmer, I mean giving THAT Dunmer I am playing life, and making his/her world HIS/HER WORLD. the choice I make for that particular character is less how I view the role, but how I view THAT PARTICULAR character.

I am only showing you that you can justify a CHOICE without justifying every little detail because YOU think that siding with the Stormcloaks on a dunmer means that that particular dunmer wants to hated by Nords or that she cares for the hatred of Nords for dunmer that she wants it to happen all the time all over skyrim.

but then again, I might not side with anyone, just have characters sympathetic with one oside or the other.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Like the dunmer situation, it might be based on race, but at least the race in question is not suffering as bad the same as other race like the Khajit or Argonians, who are not even allowed in the city to begin with. IF the Stormcloaks were truly racist/xenophobic, they or there supporters would actually be doing something. The Dunmer should be grateful the Nords let them live in the city at all

these two things look much better that petty racial segregation that also likely has a problem with both sides being generally unhelpful to the other.

Racism can also be rational as well.

in the end, racism, freedom of religion or whatever, it means absolutely nothing.

I can "justify racism" with a good RP. I can't justify hating one side because they do racist things without hating the other side fore the same stupid things.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I feel that since we will not know who truly won Skyrim, that all worlds in every game are both canon and non-canon. I feel that the best one should go for is to be sympathetic to one side or the other, but overall let both moronic factions kill each other for whatever reason they want to kill each other for.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Both the Imperials and the Stormcloaks do racist things. The Imperials forbid the Khajiit to enter the cities and the Stormcloaks discriminate the Dunmer. That is both just as wrong. I, as an Imperial, are radically against the Imperials discriminating the Khajiit.

Khajiit Caravans =/= entire Khajiit race.

Khajiit are allowed in Imperial cities in Cyrodiil, the Nord Jarls forbid the Khajiit caravans. They see them as smugglers and thieves, it doesn't translate to the entire race.

They're forbidden from minor cities too, which how the Khajiit Mage managed to walk into Winterhold or the Khajiit assassin walking around Riften's market. It wouldn't make sense.

The Khajiit caravans do smuggle and they buy stolen goods, the Nord Jarls aren't simply being racist for the sake of it in regards to the Khajiit.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Both the Imperials and the Stormcloaks do racist things. The Imperials forbid the Khajiit to enter the cities and the Stormcloaks discriminate the Dunmer. That is both just as wrong. I, as an Imperial, are radically against the Imperials discriminating the Khajiit.

Khajiit Caravans =/= entire Khajiit race.

Khajiit are allowed in Imperial cities in Cyrodiil, the Nord Jarls forbid the Khajiit caravans. They see them as smugglers and thieves, it doesn't translate to the entire race.

They're forbidden from minor cities too, which how the Khajiit Mage managed to walk into Winterhold or the Khajiit assassin walking around Riften's market. It wouldn't make sense.

The Khajiit caravans do smuggle and they buy stolen goods, the Nord Jarls aren't simply being racist for the sake of it in regards to the Khajiit.

and outside of those two, the Caravans ARE the Khajit of Skyrim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

and outside of those two, the Caravans ARE the Khajit of Skyrim.

Which is noted in game that Khajiit aren't fond of Skyrim, it was their last choice. Several of the Khajiit in the caravan either owe a debt to each other or they found themselves unwelcome by the law in Cyrodiil and Elsweyr. Unless you mean to tell me, Khajiit are banned in Elsweyr too?

Skyrim is too cold for them, as noted by all their complaining and how they don't like it. They're peddling their wares to make money, but many would go somewhere else if they could.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

and outside of those two, the Caravans ARE the Khajit of Skyrim.

Which is noted in game that Khajiit aren't fond of Skyrim, it was their last choice. Several of the Khajiit in the caravan either owe a debt to each other or they found themselves unwelcome by the law in Cyrodiil and Elsweyr. Unless you mean to tell me, Khajiit are banned in Elsweyr too?

Skyrim is too cold for them, as noted by all their complaining and how they don't like it. They're peddling their wares to make money, but many would go somewhere else if they could.

I do agree with that. but nobody in Skyrim helps them, which is a point off of both factions in terms of my sympathies to them.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I do agree with that. but nobody in Skyrim helps them, which is a point off of both factions in terms of my sympathies to them.

The Khajiit don't need help, they're making a fortune. They sell to both the Stormcloaks and Imperials, they're making a lot of money due to barely any merchants in Skyrim that walk around due to the Civil War and Dragons.

It isn't like they're struggling by, they're making a lot of profit. They make enough profit for the Thieves Guild to want an alliance with them, that alone speaks some volumes of how much they're making.

They could probably buy a city. People underestimate the Khajiit, putting sympathy on them. They are intelligent in the business sense and sell to both sides of the Civil War, the war is good for business. (For them) Not good for other merchants like those who sell food from farms.

The Khajiit can get their hands on many items, potions, weapons, armor, pelts, skooma and moon sugar. They're like the Black market for the soldiers of either side, who spend their pay.

 

[Pronged Pickle]

Here is the thing. ONE Stormcloak hates them visibly because they do not help the stormcloaks. ONE jarl is too busy focusing on the civil war to even care about a murderer in his city. I feel that the Stormcloaks got tired of the Dunmer being on the sidelines and said "your choice, we will be trying to save skyrim from the dominion and weak empire."

I will say ONE MORE TIME: I dislike the racism in Windhelm, but also feel that the Dunmer ARE NOT helping the situation any by staying on the sidelines feeling entitled to help they will not receive unless Ulfric is removed.

What should they do, help people who treat them like crap? I'm sure you wouldn't help people who discriminate you.

why do they treat them like crap/not even help them out of the kindness of their hearts expecting nothing of the Dunmer to help them?

staying on the sidelines in the heart of the stormcloak rebellion is just as bad as supporting the Empire in that same place

"Skyrim is for the Nords!!!"

Notice how Dunmer and Nords got along in Windhelm before Ulfric became Jarl.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Like the man said, this is a bold-faced lie. Anouck is going along with this nonsense to try and justify her heart-wrenching crusade saying one thing and then the truth coming out in another that even she, has prejudice against High Elves. That being said, she's ripping a Stormcloak? for being probably a minor racist (which might just be a little justifiable with what happened in the war and all) and then herself saying she agrees that she hates High Elves.

See, this is why I joined the Dominion... my reasoning for joining the Thalmor was a little bit different but whatever.

To Sven and Anouck. If you cannot understand that what it is you actually hate is the Thalmor and cannot see that there is a difference even between the citizens of the Dominion and the Thalmor ~ Then that worries me and I am justified and so are all Thalmor. If anything, I'm glad I caught this.

Dominion and Thalmor aren't necessarily the same. AND neither are High Elves and Thalmor. Not all High Elves agree with us THEREFORE by saying you hate the High Elves, you're spewing your hate on "innocents". See... this. This is why I stopped following the Empire. Exactly the reason why right here. Bottom line Jeremy is right about alot of things but he's coming from an angle that's not PC. Pain and terrible tragedy do this to people.

Sometime the pl*ps is so horribly, the chips are so far down but you know you can't quit and you also know... that certain types of people are not your friends. Not at the moment at least. So you have to decide very *carefully* who you can and cannot trust.

The PC crowd and those who want to pretend to be saints on these online forums in order to take the High Ground are often they themselves lacking in morality and reasoning, just no one dares to call them on it.

Yes I believe there is a time to hate and a time to discriminate. Just like there's a time to kill and a time to heal. There's a time to live and a time to let die. To everything there is a season an appointed time. So why not stop running down other people who have their reasons and focus on what you REALLY THINK and fell.

What are you even on about? You're ranting over Anouck giving a rating to someone who by his own admission, was talking about the Aldmeri Dominion. Start making sense for once.

I was talking about the Dominion.

Fourth Era Dominion to be exact.

 

[NENALATA]

Nice try. Irrelevant because that's not what he meant at the time he said it and she knew what he meant. You're not making sense this time around. If I had posted something like that or agreed with it...

But that's fine. It's over now and I think the point has been made. Good day.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Nice try. Irrelevant because that's not what he meant at the time he said it and she knew what he meant. You're not making sense this time around.

He already elaborated what he meant. Now quit complaining over who Anouck gives ratings to, honestly. If you don't have a valid argument, other than merely attacking why she is giving a rating to someone. Then don't bother.

You just keep repeating your argument, even though it was already proven wrong. And I bet you are going to re use it in one of your upcoming posts again.

Anocuk was right, you'd bring it up again.

 

[Pronged Pickle]

I can "justify racism" with a good RP. I can't justify hating one side because they do racist things without hating the other side fore the same stupid things.

Here is an RP I came up with that might help you understand it: A female Dunmer nightblade had problems with the Thalmor and the Imperials just let it happened/ maybe she lost someone she loved to the Thalmor? Maybe they thought she was a secret Talos-worshiper? Who knows, I can "justify the racism" in windhelm by saying it might be better that way in the long run than to risk problems between the Thalmor and Dunmer on principle. Justifying without justifying, still hates what the Nords did to the Dunmer but admits that it will likely happen no matter how the war turns out.

Please stop bringing up RP's. That is of your own creation, is not canon, and does not effect the actual events of the game, or the lore itself.

Also, the Empire is not racist. I don't know where you're going with that, they literally accept all races into their ranks. You'll even find Altmer and Dunmer soldiers (while rare; <- Not because the Empire is racist).

 

[DrunkenMage]

Also, the Empire is not racist. I don't know where you're going with that, they literally accept all races into their ranks. You'll even find Altmer and Dunmer soldiers (while rare; <- Not because the Empire is racist).

You also find Breton and Redguard in the ranks.

 

[NENALATA]

NENALATA said: ↑

Nice try. Irrelevant because that's not what he meant at the time he said it and she knew what he meant. You're not making sense this time around.​

He already elaborated what he meant. Now quit complaining over who Anouck gives ratings to who, honestly. If you don't have a valid argument, other than merely attacking why she is giving a rating to someone. Then don't bother.

But that doesn't matter. Under interrogation the CIA has noted the FIRST thing mentioned by the person is usually the truth. Furthermore, there was no mention of it in his original post being specifically the Dominion, he said he hated High Elves and she agreed. This also has absolutely nothing to do with ratings.

You're afraid because I caught you guys in a lie or at very least I know how you really feel now. So stop trying to change the subject and make lame excuses for her. Ratings have nothing to do with it my friend. I was just astonished at the Hypocrisy coming from the Imperial side of the table after ganging up on a Stormcloak? who racism is somewhat justifiable.

Anouck said: ↑

You just keep repeating your argument, even though it was already proven wrong. And I bet you are going to re use it in one of your upcoming posts again.​

Anocuk was right, you'd bring it up again.

No I was answering/commenting on a post that Sven and her were discussing. I find your Hypocrisy and your willingness to just brush aside racism in your own Faction yet criticize everyone else for doing the same appalling. And yet I'm not surprised at all by it.

 

[DrunkenMage]

But that doesn't matter. Under interrogation the CIA has noted the FIRST thing mentioned by the person is usually the truth. Furthermore, there was no mention of it being specifically the Dominion. This also has absolutely nothing to about ratings.

You're afraid because I caught you guys in a lie or at very least I know how you really feel. So stop trying to change the subject and make lame excuses for her. Ratings have nothing to do with it my friend. I was just astonished at the Hypocrisy coming from the Imperial side of the table after ganging up on a Stormcloak? who racism is somewhat justifiable.

No I was answering/commenting on a post that Sven and her were discussing. I find your Hypocrisy and your willingness to just brush aside racism in your Faction yet criticize everyone else for doing the same.

You have nothing, I can see that by bringing up CIA interrogations?

You're astonished by the hypocrisy of the Imperial side? You are the most hypocritical person in this thread, one moment pro stormcloak, next pro imperial, next pro Thalmor, then random rant about nothing, followed by back to Thalmor then the cycle continues.

Stop going on about something that isn't even the point. It was assumed he was talking about the Dominion, so get over yourself on that one. You're merely bringing up an argument, that has no standing. No basis.

Be like me arguing when you say Imperial side, to say you're racist. How dare you compare the entire race of Imperials, then posting a huge rant over it. That is not the case, you're merely arguing about nothing.

 

[Pronged Pickle]

Can't help but agree with Sven when he says we're all getting way too hyped up over this.