Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[The Laoch]

This is for all the people who hate the Thalmor.

Sorry Nenalata, just know you are my favorite Thalmor

 

[NENALATA]

ALL HAIL THE ALDMERI DOMINION!!!​

THE RIGHTFUL RULERS OF TAMRIEL, THE SAVIORS OF MER!!!​

ALL HAIL THE MAD GOD, BURIED WITH A DONKEY, HE'S OUR FAVORITE HONKEY!!!​

​

...​

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OR YOU COULD JUST SLAP A MIDGET... I THINK... I THINK THAT WOULD PRETTY MUCH COVER ALL 3!!!​

NOT AN ELVEN MIDGET THOUGH​

 

[DrunkenMage]

The only Jarls who seem more concerned about rebuilding Skyrim are Empire supporting Jarls. Free-Winter talks about repairing the city of Windhelm, the Jarl of Winterhold talks about rebuilding the city of Winterhold and establishing relations with the College.

How does a group fighting for 'Freedom' use a policy of "With us or Against us" That is hardly the words of being free, since you either join them or you're against them. Lacking a bit of freedom of choice.

When people are asking on the forums, what side should I support. The question is quite easy, either you join the Stormcloaks or you're against them. If you're neutral you're basically going to be considered Empire friendly.

People who support the Stormcloaks, seem to easily shrug off what the game presents them, claiming it is Imperial lies. I hate to tell you, but you're give the Empire far too much credit if every book is Imperial propaganda.

Cyrodiil has more pressing matters to deal with than publish propaganda books for the soul purpose of slandering Ulfric Stormcloak. Ulfric is considered a traitor, for the Empire to publish propaganda about him they would have to acknowledge he has a cause worthy of being noted about.

"It's not a cause. It's a rebellion."

Another matter, I wonder on the views of many Stormcloak supporters on how they feel about, racial segregation and enslavement of a native population? Because I'm starting to wonder if Ulfric picked up some Thalmor ideology while he was their 'guest' during the Great War and it has spread to some of his more devout followers.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

NENALATA said: And then we could take the ships and open the West Empire Trading CO and celebrate it's inception by having an Ulfric Skull-keg party on the beach.

Make it a good party, as I believe Ulfric's death would be the catalyst for the beginning of the next Great War.

 

[NENALATA]

 

[Raijin]

It would of cost the lives of thousands more had Titus II accepted the ultimatum, this is a foolish argument against the Empire and you know it. Had the Empire simply laid down arms and given Southern Hammerfell, banned the worship of Talos, paid staggering amounts of tribute to the Aldmeri Dominion as was asked in the Ultimatum. It would of been Civil war.

Where are you finding this statistics at? Are you telling me that Mede II saved more lives by telling the Thalmor to piss off? Is that what you're trying to tell me? Isn't that a bit foolishness? Even you have to agree with me that what you said makes no sense. And no this argument against the Empire is completely valid as it clearly shows that Mede II does not listen to his Generals when comes to his military.

I highly doubt that you, who goes on about the weakness of Imperials for surrendering, would suddenly pick up the banner had the Empire simply rolled over. Your argument is a contradiction to your entire belief. Ulfric Stormcloak is nothing, nothing like the Imperial Generals that advised Titus Mede of Military weakness, because Ulfric only cares about war. He and many of the Nords wanted more blood, even if it led to the total destruction of all the Legions in a suicide run into the heart of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Completely invalid. Do you not see a pro in Ulfric at all? Are you completely blind sided by the fact that Ulfric isn't this blood thirsty beast as you claim him to be? If he wanted blood he would of agreed with Galmar from the start:

Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."
Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."
Galmar: "We're ready when you are."
Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."
Instead of killing Balfruuf he had him exiled from his hold.
With an addition:
Ulfric: "Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?"
Galmar: "I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?"
Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."
Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."
Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."
Galmar: "Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan."

Would you be defending the Empire had it accepted the ultimatum? With Civil Wars raging all across the Empire, thousands of innocents dying while the Empire shatters and fights itself? No you wouldn't, you would be exactly where you are now calling the Empire cowards. Thousands died defending their lands from an invasion. Better to die fighting for your homes and love ones than to die fighting so whoever you're following may claim the Ruby Throne.

As of matter of fact had Mede II accepted the ultimatum the first time I would be defending the Empire. In fact I would be Pro Empire rather than Pro Stormcloaks. I respect an Emperor who respects their Generals. I also respect anyone who can acknowledge their weakness. Theirs some battles that you shouldn't be inflicting if you know you cannot win, and this is what his Generals was trying to tell him, but he just flat out ignored their expertise, which triggered a Great war.

Question for you and/or Raijn. Didn't Istlod (High King of Skyrim at the time) sign off on the WGC? And if so, which seems to be the case, should not all Nords respect his wishes as High King? The obvious intent was to make sure what was left of the Empire stayed together. If the High King decided thusly, shouldn't the Nords (Stormcloaks) owe it to tradition as such to respect his wishes? And, if Ulfric openly admits that Istlod (Torygg's father) was the proper High King, is it not hypocrisy to say otherwise?

Unfortunately I'm unable to provide you with any lore related information regarding to High King Istlod, since theirs hardly any information about this man that is considered to be canon. I haven't read any of the Elders scrolls books either so I simply do not know.

Perhaps Dagmar might give us some canon and lore related information about Istlod because I'm fresh out.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It would of cost the lives of thousands more had Titus II accepted the ultimatum, this is a foolish argument against the Empire and you know it. Had the Empire simply laid down arms and given Southern Hammerfell, banned the worship of Talos, paid staggering amounts of tribute to the Aldmeri Dominion as was asked in the Ultimatum. It would of been Civil war.

Where are you finding this statistics at? Are you telling me that Mede II saved more lives by telling the Thalmor to piss off? Is that what you're trying to tell me? Isn't that a bit foolishness? Even you have to agree with me that what you said makes no sense. And no this argument against the Empire is completely valid as it clearly shows that Mede II does not listen to his Generals when comes to his military.

I highly doubt that you, who goes on about the weakness of Imperials for surrendering, would suddenly pick up the banner had the Empire simply rolled over. Your argument is a contradiction to your entire belief. Ulfric Stormcloak is nothing, nothing like the Imperial Generals that advised Titus Mede of Military weakness, because Ulfric only cares about war. He and many of the Nords wanted more blood, even if it led to the total destruction of all the Legions in a suicide run into the heart of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Completely invalid. Do you not see a pro in Ulfric at all? Are you completely blind sided by the fact that Ulfric isn't this blood thirsty beast as you claim him to be? If he wanted blood he would of agreed with Galmar from the start:

Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."
Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."
Galmar: "We're ready when you are."
Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."
Instead of killing Balfruuf he had him exiled from his hold.
With an addition:
Ulfric: "Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?"
Galmar: "I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?"
Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."
Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."
Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."
Galmar: "Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan."

Would you be defending the Empire had it accepted the ultimatum? With Civil Wars raging all across the Empire, thousands of innocents dying while the Empire shatters and fights itself? No you wouldn't, you would be exactly where you are now calling the Empire cowards. Thousands died defending their lands from an invasion. Better to die fighting for your homes and love ones than to die fighting so whoever you're following may claim the Ruby Throne.

As of matter of fact had Mede II accepted the ultimatum the first time I would be defending the Empire. In fact I would be Pro Empire rather than Pro Stormcloaks. I respect an Emperor who respects their Generals. I also respect anyone who can acknowledge their weakness. Theirs some battles that you shouldn't be inflicting if you know you cannot win, and this is what his Generals was trying to tell him, but he just flat out ignored their expertise, which triggered a Great war.

Question for you and/or Raijn. Didn't Istlod (High King of Skyrim at the time) sign off on the WGC? And if so, which seems to be the case, should not all Nords respect his wishes as High King? The obvious intent was to make sure what was left of the Empire stayed together. If the High King decided thusly, shouldn't the Nords (Stormcloaks) owe it to tradition as such to respect his wishes? And, if Ulfric openly admits that Istlod (Torygg's father) was the proper High King, is it not hypocrisy to say otherwise?

Unfortunately I'm unable to provide you with any lore related information regarding to High King Istlod, since theirs hardly any information about this man that is considered to be canon. I haven't read any of the Elders scrolls books either so I simply do not know.

Perhaps Dagmar might give us some canon and lore related information about Istlod because I'm fresh out.

However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

The Empire would of been destroyed internally had the ultimatum been accepted. The provinces would rebel against the Emperor. The Aldmeri Dominion had their armies ready on the border to launch an attack, they knew the ultimatum would be rejected, had it been accepted they would sit at watch the Empire fall into another Stormcrown Interregnum.

Where would the thousands of innocents caught between the infighting be then? While the Empire shatters and destroys itself through petty wars against each other, then the mass armies of the Aldmeri Dominion swoop in and take Cyrodiil without much effort. Losing Cyrodiil affects the Empire, Cyrodiil where the fertile farmlands are, Skyrim's farms struggle in the rough climate with the exception of Rorikstead, the citizens depending on resources from the Empire. Unless you truly believe the Thalmor will give the poor Nords of Skyrim resources it has been dependent on for over an Era.

Imperial Generals should be listening to Titus Mede II, not only did he show his great ability in leadership but also on the Battlefield.

In what is now known as the Battle of the Red Ring, a battle that will serve as a model for Imperial strategists for generations to come.

What makes Titus II even greater, is that yes the Empire did have a great Military weakness, but it still managed to defeat the main Aldmeri Dominion army, crippling the Dominion's ability to even hold onto anything it gained in the WGC. The Dominion lost all their holdings granted by the treaty.

Your delusional view on how accepting the Thalmor Ultimatum would be smart. Especially since they arrived with a "gift" which were the heads of every Blades Agent within their Dominion's borders.

Do you truly believe the Aldmeri Dominion would stay away while the Empire cripples itself, then allowing them to rebuild very slowly?

Perhaps you should leave strategy to those who have common sense and aren't biased in their opinion about how it would be better if the Empire had torn itself apart with Civil War.

The White-Gold Concordat was accepted by the Empire, not just Emperor Titus Mede II. It was accepted by Skyrim and by High Rock. The treaty has been in place for twenty six years without much incident.

The banning of Talos was poorly enforced and it still is poorly enforced within Markarth where the head of the Thalmor Talos Hunters can't even arrest one Nord because the Jarl won't allow it. So you can stop the whole "Empire are Thalmor puppets" since it is clear that the Thalmor do not have supreme powers over the Empire.

You have called the Empire oppressors, when you yourself support Racial segregation and slavery of the people of the Reach. You say torture is bad, but then are quick to support torture in another thread.

If Ulfric wasn't blood thirsty, why does he play with Tullius after his defeat? Toying with killing Tullius to make a dramatic moment, those are the actions of a psychopath, not a true Nord. Ulfric has more in common with Cicero than anything else.

Galmar: "Just kill him and let's be done with it already."
Ulfric: "Come, Galmar. Where's your sense of the dramatic moment?"
Galmar: "By the gods! If it's a good ending to some damn story you're after..."

 

[Ozan]

It would of cost the lives of thousands more had Titus II accepted the ultimatum, this is a foolish argument against the Empire and you know it. Had the Empire simply laid down arms and given Southern Hammerfell, banned the worship of Talos, paid staggering amounts of tribute to the Aldmeri Dominion as was asked in the Ultimatum. It would of been Civil war.

Where are you finding this statistics at? Are you telling me that Mede II saved more lives by telling the Thalmor to piss off? Is that what you're trying to tell me? Isn't that a bit foolishness? Even you have to agree with me that what you said makes no sense. And no this argument against the Empire is completely valid as it clearly shows that Mede II does not listen to his Generals when comes to his military.

I highly doubt that you, who goes on about the weakness of Imperials for surrendering, would suddenly pick up the banner had the Empire simply rolled over. Your argument is a contradiction to your entire belief. Ulfric Stormcloak is nothing, nothing like the Imperial Generals that advised Titus Mede of Military weakness, because Ulfric only cares about war. He and many of the Nords wanted more blood, even if it led to the total destruction of all the Legions in a suicide run into the heart of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Completely invalid. Do you not see a pro in Ulfric at all? Are you completely blind sided by the fact that Ulfric isn't this blood thirsty beast as you claim him to be? If he wanted blood he would of agreed with Galmar from the start:

Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."
Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."
Galmar: "We're ready when you are."
Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."
Instead of killing Balfruuf he had him exiled from his hold.
With an addition:
Ulfric: "Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?"
Galmar: "I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?"
Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."
Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."
Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."
Galmar: "Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan."

Would you be defending the Empire had it accepted the ultimatum? With Civil Wars raging all across the Empire, thousands of innocents dying while the Empire shatters and fights itself? No you wouldn't, you would be exactly where you are now calling the Empire cowards. Thousands died defending their lands from an invasion. Better to die fighting for your homes and love ones than to die fighting so whoever you're following may claim the Ruby Throne.

As of matter of fact had Mede II accepted the ultimatum the first time I would be defending the Empire. In fact I would be Pro Empire rather than Pro Stormcloaks. I respect an Emperor who respects their Generals. I also respect anyone who can acknowledge their weakness. Theirs some battles that you shouldn't be inflicting if you know you cannot win, and this is what his Generals was trying to tell him, but he just flat out ignored their expertise, which triggered a Great war.

Question for you and/or Raijn. Didn't Istlod (High King of Skyrim at the time) sign off on the WGC? And if so, which seems to be the case, should not all Nords respect his wishes as High King? The obvious intent was to make sure what was left of the Empire stayed together. If the High King decided thusly, shouldn't the Nords (Stormcloaks) owe it to tradition as such to respect his wishes? And, if Ulfric openly admits that Istlod (Torygg's father) was the proper High King, is it not hypocrisy to say otherwise?

Unfortunately I'm unable to provide you with any lore related information regarding to High King Istlod, since theirs hardly any information about this man that is considered to be canon. I haven't read any of the Elders scrolls books either so I simply do not know.

Perhaps Dagmar might give us some canon and lore related information about Istlod because I'm fresh out.

However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

The Empire would of been destroyed internally had the ultimatum been accepted. The provinces would rebel against the Emperor. The Aldmeri Dominion had their armies ready on the border to launch an attack, they knew the ultimatum would be rejected, had it been accepted they would sit at watch the Empire fall into another Stormcrown Interregnum.

Where would the thousands of innocents caught between the infighting be then? While the Empire shatters and destroys itself through petty wars against each other, then the mass armies of the Aldmeri Dominion swoop in and take Cyrodiil without much effort. Losing Cyrodiil affects the Empire, Cyrodiil where the fertile farmlands are, Skyrim's farms struggle in the rough climate with the exception of Rorikstead, the citizens depending on resources from the Empire. Unless you truly believe the Thalmor will give the poor Nords of Skyrim resources it has been dependent on for over an Era.

Imperial Generals should be listening to Titus Mede II, not only did he show his great ability in leadership but also on the Battlefield.

In what is now known as the Battle of the Red Ring, a battle that will serve as a model for Imperial strategists for generations to come.

What makes Titus II even greater, is that yes the Empire did have a great Military weakness, but it still managed to defeat the main Aldmeri Dominion army, crippling the Dominion's ability to even hold onto anything it gained in the WGC. The Dominion lost all their holdings granted by the treaty.

Your delusional view on how accepting the Thalmor Ultimatum would be smart. Especially since they arrived with a "gift" which were the heads of every Blades Agent within their Dominion's borders.

Do you truly believe the Aldmeri Dominion would stay away while the Empire cripples itself, then allowing them to rebuild very slowly?

Perhaps you should leave strategy to those who have common sense and aren't biased in their opinion about how it would be better if the Empire had torn itself apart with Civil War.

The White-Gold Concordat was accepted by the Empire, not just Emperor Titus Mede II. It was accepted by Skyrim and by High Rock. The treaty has been in place for twenty six years without much incident.

The banning of Talos was poorly enforced and it still is poorly enforced within Markarth where the head of the Thalmor Talos Hunters can't even arrest one Nord because the Jarl won't allow it. So you can stop the whole "Empire are Thalmor puppets" since it is clear that the Thalmor do not have supreme powers over the Empire.

You have called the Empire oppressors, when you yourself support Racial segregation and slavery of the people of the Reach. You say torture is bad, but then are quick to support torture in another thread.

If Ulfric wasn't blood thirsty, why does he play with Tullius after his defeat? Toying with killing Tullius to make a dramatic moment, those are the actions of a psychopath, not a true Nord. Ulfric has more in common with Cicero than anything else.

Galmar: "Just kill him and let's be done with it already."
Ulfric: "Come, Galmar. Where's your sense of the dramatic moment?"
Galmar: "By the gods! If it's a good ending to some damn story you're after..."

...then the man said, "that's not a horker. That's General Tullius's naked and bloated body!"

No, I don't think Ulfric is all that similar to Cicero.))

 

[Dagmar]

I better join the Imperials so I can murder Ex-Imperials, dissident peasants, and more upset common folk and take part in encouraging Thalmor murders and public executions.

This is nothing more than grandiloquence. You're killing regardless of which side you choose and your hands are no cleaner regardless of which side you choose in that regard. The Stormcloaks are no more "common folk" than the Legionnaires. Ulfric has done far more to encourage the Justiciar activity than anyone else in Skyrim. His ability to garner increased support for the Stormcloaks was predicated upon agitating the Justiciars into heightened activity.

Golly, I'm a changed Kitty! Sign me up for this oppressive police state!

You signed up with the Jarl who has the most oppressive police state governing his city in all of the province.

But in all serious, if the Khajiit dislikes Imperial Legion and is treated the same in either side... what does it matter if the Stormcloak doesn't like me? If I'm the fluffing Dragonborn, then they'll have to say "Gee, he may be Khajiit but he also won the war. We've also supposedly respected him to the point to give him nicknames and pl***. I hope he likes to be called Honey Bun Ball of Fur. Or Sweetie Pie because we are total fruit loops."

If your Imperial, nothing like that will ever happen because you fight for the state and not the people. So, I do more damage for Khajiit by joining the Legion. You earn no respect from local Jarls. You aren't given an outstanding achievement award from Skyrim. You sided with an Imperial. All praises come from Cyrodiil.

You want to be accepted by a people, associate with them even if they hate you. You'll be accepted so long as you mean well.))

I'm not sure what the point of this little screed was. Your accomplishments are acknowledged equally by either side, which, annoyingly, is almost not at all after the initial dialogues at the end of the quest line for either faction (and is endemic for the content of the entire game). All praises don't come from Cyrodiil. You fought in a civil war. A huge portion of the local population is appreciative for your efforts in either case.

 

[Dagmar]

The difference between Ulfric Stormcloak and your previous Emperor Titus Mede II is that at least Ulfric chooses his battles carefully. He is an equivalent to the General that warned Mede II about not starting a war against the Thalmor. You criticizes him for “giving up” but at least he avoided a blood bath, even know he fully acknowledge that the Imperials were going to execute him and his men.

Thanks. I needed a good laugh and attributing a desire to avoid a blood bath to the architect of a civil war that washes the entire province in blood did the trick. You also have yet to explain the total contradiction between Ulfric's surrender at the beginning of the game and his stubborn refusal to surrender in the face of obvious defeat at the end of the Imperial Legion quest line. Choosing to surrender in the beginning of the game would have effectively ended with the loss of the war by the Stormcloaks if Alduin hadn't shown up so it defies logic to say that Ulfric was choosing his battles carefully by surrendering.

 

[Dagmar]

Unfortunately I'm unable to provide you with any lore related information regarding to High King Istlod, since theirs hardly any information about this man that is considered to be canon. I haven't read any of the Elders scrolls books either so I simply do not know.

Perhaps Dagmar might give us some canon and lore related information about Istlod because I'm fresh out.

There is little reference to Istlod in the game. The only thing we know is that when he was High King of Skyrim he supported the Empire and the rest of Skyrim fell in line. Politics are not an uncomplicated thing in the Empire and regardless of how the influence is actually carried out, the High King has influence in the decisions of the Empire. We know that the Empire has curried favor with Skyrim through political gestures such as the placement of the statue of Tiber Septim in the Imperial city over Akatosh who made the pact with all Dragonborn emperors so whether the High King has direct representation on the Council of Elders or not, he probably had some say in the matter regarding the terms of the White-Gold Concordat.

Regardless of whether how he felt about the terms, Istlod believed that it was more important to accept them and remain part of the Empire. If it were otherwise he would have advocated secession or taken actions that would have required the Empire to disavow Skyrim as a part of the Empire much like it was forced to do so when the Redguards refused to abide by the terms of the White-Gold Concordat.

 

[Ozan]

I better join the Imperials so I can murder Ex-Imperials, dissident peasants, and more upset common folk and take part in encouraging Thalmor murders and public executions.

This is nothing more than grandiloquence. You're killing regardless of which side you choose and your hands are no cleaner regardless of which side you choose in that regard. The Stormcloaks are no more "common folk" than the Legionnaires. Ulfric has done far more to encourage the Justiciar activity than anyone else in Skyrim. His ability to garner increased support for the Stormcloaks was predicated upon agitating the Justiciars into heightened activity.

Golly, I'm a changed Kitty! Sign me up for this oppressive police state!

You signed up with the Jarl who has the most oppressive police state governing his city in all of the province.

But in all serious, if the Khajiit dislikes Imperial Legion and is treated the same in either side... what does it matter if the Stormcloak doesn't like me? If I'm the fluffing Dragonborn, then they'll have to say "Gee, he may be Khajiit but he also won the war. We've also supposedly respected him to the point to give him nicknames and pl***. I hope he likes to be called Honey Bun Ball of Fur. Or Sweetie Pie because we are total fruit loops."

If your Imperial, nothing like that will ever happen because you fight for the state and not the people. So, I do more damage for Khajiit by joining the Legion. You earn no respect from local Jarls. You aren't given an outstanding achievement award from Skyrim. You sided with an Imperial. All praises come from Cyrodiil.

You want to be accepted by a people, associate with them even if they hate you. You'll be accepted so long as you mean well.))

I'm not sure what the point of this little screed was. You're accomplishments are acknowledged equally by either side, which, annoyingly, is almost not at all after the initial dialogues at the end of the quest line for either faction (and is endemic for the content of the entire game). All praises don't come from Cyrodiil. You fought in a civil war. A huge portion of the local population is appreciative for your efforts in either case.

Alright. That being said, why would a Khajiit join the Legion?

There is no reason for a Khajiit to join either. But -my- Khajiit went Stormcloak. The Stormcloaks may have set off this powder keg, but where did it come from? The Legion, openly allowing Thalmor within their borders. Religious zealots who worshipped silently but loud enough.

The book where that Bard was taken by Thalmor. Though I have disputed its legitimacy, if it was indeed real, then was he not taken? Were the Thalmor really not in a caring mood, they just took him for lolz?

The Thalmor are in Skyrim and the fact that they are more active could merely be a response to Stormcloak openness. They found out about the Markarth incident and responded pretty quick, didn't they?))

 

[Dagmar]

The book where that Bard was taken by Thalmor. Though I have disputed its legitimacy, if it was indeed real, then was he not taken? Were the Thalmor really not in a caring mood, they just took him for lolz?

They were lackadaisical. He was able to openly defy the ban in the very city where they're headquartered for 6 continuous days. They were also careless when they held him in custody leaving one lone Justiciar to watch over him who was so incompetent in his duties that he was strangled to death by a bound prisoner.

The Thalmor are in Skyrim and the fact that they are more active could merely be a response to Stormcloak openness. They found out about the Markarth incident and responded pretty quick, didn't they?))

Comparing their reaction to an entire Hold simultaneously openly violating the terms of the White-Gold Concordat to forcibly taking people secretly worshiping Talos in the dead of night is apples and oranges. They may as well as not insisted on the banning of Talos as a term if they reacted lethargically to what was going on in Markarth after the Reach was retaken by the Nord militia.

 

[Ozan]

The book where that Bard was taken by Thalmor. Though I have disputed its legitimacy, if it was indeed real, then was he not taken? Were the Thalmor really not in a caring mood, they just took him for lolz?

They were lackadaisical. He was able to openly defy the ban in the very city where they're headquartered for 6 continuous days. They were also careless when they held him in custody leaving one lone Justiciar to watch over him who was so incompetent in his duties that he was strangled to death by a bound prisoner.

The Thalmor are in Skyrim and the fact that they are more active could merely be a response to Stormcloak openness. They found out about the Markarth incident and responded pretty quick, didn't they?))

Comparing their reaction to an entire Hold simultaneously openly violating the terms of the White-Gold Concordat to forcibly taking people secretly worshiping Talos in the dead of night is apples and oranges. They may as well as not insisted on the banning of Talos as a term if they reacted lethargically to what was going on in Markarth after the Reach was retaken by the Nord militia.

The first case doesn't matter in regards to time. The point is he was taken.

The second point, I'm not sure I understand your apples and oranges comment. Both are fruits off trees and taste good as juice. They could be cousins.))

 

[Dagmar]

The first case doesn't matter in regards to time. The point is he was taken.

It does matter. It shows how different things were before Ulfric agitated the Justiciars to an exponentially higher level of vigilance in enforcing the ban on Talos. It's not only about time, but manner and place, all of which point to the fact already stated by Alvor that no one had to worry about worshiping Talos in Skyrim as long as they weren't conspicuous to the point of abject stupidity like the Bard was.

 

[Ozan]

The first case doesn't matter in regards to time. The point is he was taken.

It does matter. It shows how different things were before Ulfric agitated the Justiciars to an exponentially higher level of vigilance in enforcing the ban on Talos. It's not only about time, but manner and place, all of which point to the fact already stated by Alvor that no one had to worry about worshiping Talos in Skyrim as long as they weren't conspicuous to the point of abject stupidity like the Bard was.

Stupid people are still people. Thus, stupidity is not a valid excuse for kidnapping and murder.))

 

[Dagmar]

Stupid people are still people. Thus, stupidity is not a valid excuse for kidnapping and murder.))

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or you just don't get it. The point has been made as clear as it can be that the Justiciar's enforcement of the ban on Talos worship was far less severe prior to Ulfric's actions. If you lack the capacity to appreciate that at this point there's no point in discussing the matter further since no one can do anything to increase that ability on your part.

 

[Ozan]

Stupid people are still people. Thus, stupidity is not a valid excuse for kidnapping and murder.))

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or you just don't get it. The point has been made as clear as it can be that the Justiciar's enforcement of the ban on Talos worship was far less severe prior to Ulfric's actions. If you lack the capacity to appreciate that at this point there's no point in discussing the matter further since no one can do anything to increase that ability on your part.

You hurt my feelings. :c))

 

[NENALATA]

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The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.​

All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved.​

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.​

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If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.​

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He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.​

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There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.​

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Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.​

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You have to believe in yourself.​

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All war is deception.​

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- Sun Tzu​

 

[DrunkenMage]

Stupid people are still people. Thus, stupidity is not a valid excuse for kidnapping and murder.))