Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

Very valid points.

1) I was talking about riften so she must be in jail. Thanks for heads up.

2) the original question I wanted to answer was when Rikki said the Empire is the only thing keeping the Thalmor out of Skyrim. Which I believe is no ,since if the Aldmeri are not going to have a large scale invasion of Skyrim how come the Stormcloaks can't handle a few soldiers? The Thalmor want the empire dead not Skyrim they would probably leave Skyrim alone if they left the Empire. They left Hammerfell,black marsh, and morrowind alone.

3) you are right in saying that the Empire could wait if there is a war between the stormcloaks and Thalmor, but why wait when you can attack the Thalmor when they are distracted. I wouldn't attack Skyrim that is being a sore loser haha.

In the end I'm 50/50 on stormcloak and Empire, but in he end I think because of the Mede leadership the Empire will lose both Skyrim and Highrock for the next game.

They're keeping the 'Dominion out of Skyrim' The Imperial Army is tied down on the Aldmeri Border, so the Dominion is being kept out of Skyrim. The Thalmor are the political body, you have Thalmor Agents, Justiciars etc. The Thalmor in skyrim maintain a small embassy. They invaded Hammerfell during the Great War, they fought against Hammerfell for five years after the WGC was signed? I wouldn't call that leaving them alone. Black Marsh and Morrowind wouldn't make much sense, the Aldmeri Dominion seek Elven superiority over man, invading black marsh would simply be a waste of resources and Morrowind is already crippled.

War between the Dominion and Skyrim? If they're going by sea then it would fail, if they're going by land it would mean they've destroyed most of the Imperial Army, since the Imperial Army is on their border and they would need to cross Cryodiil to get to Skyrim. Though the Empire invading Elsweyr and Valenwood would be a little harder than you would think. Would take many years and if Cyrodiil is cut off from any reinforcements from High Rock and the Legions that were in Skyrim it wouldn't go very well.

 

[The Laoch]

They're keeping the 'Dominion out of Skyrim' The Imperial Army is tied down on the Aldmeri Border, so the Dominion is being kept out of Skyrim. The Thalmor are the political body, you have Thalmor Agents, Justiciars etc. The Thalmor in skyrim maintain a small embassy. They invaded Hammerfell during the Great War, they fought against Hammerfell for five years after the WGC was signed? I wouldn't call that leaving them alone. Black Marsh and Morrowind wouldn't make much sense, the Aldmeri Dominion seek Elven superiority over man, invading black marsh would simply be a waste of resources and Morrowind is already crippled.

War between the Dominion and Skyrim? If they're going by sea then it would fail, if they're going by land it would mean they've destroyed most of the Imperial Army, since the Imperial Army is on their border and they would need to cross Cryodiil to get to Skyrim. Though the Empire invading Elsweyr and Valenwood would be a little harder than you would think. Would take many years and if Cyrodiil is cut off from any reinforcements from High Rock and the Legions that were in Skyrim it wouldn't go very well.

You are right ,but would you argue that the Aldmeri dominion wants the Empire dead before they would attack Skyrim? All I want to say is if the Aldmeri forces can't attack Skyrim on the sea than I think it is safe to say the Stormcloaks are good enough to keep the Dominion out. What is the point of the Empire wasting troops in Skyrim if the Aldmeri forces must attack it by land? They should use those troops on the border ( of course I am talking about a post civil war)

And the Hammerfell incident yes they fought for the following years ,but I meant at the very time of elder scrolls Skyrim. I'm sorry I didn't clarified, the Thalmor couldn't get their land in Hammerfell so they signed the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai and withdrew their forces. I don't see any fighting coming since in that province.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You are right ,but would you argue that the Aldmeri dominion wants the Empire dead before they would attack Skyrim? All I want to say is if the Aldmeri forces can't attack Skyrim on the sea than I think it is safe to say the Stormcloaks are good enough to keep the Dominion out. What is the point of the Empire wasting troops in Skyrim if the Aldmeri forces must attack it by land? They should use those troops on the border ( of course I am talking about a post civil war)

And the Hammerfell incident yes they fought for the following years ,but I meant at the very time of elder scrolls Skyrim. I'm sorry I didn't clarified, the Thalmor couldn't get their land in Hammerfell so they signed the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai and withdrew their forces. I don't see any fighting coming since in that province.

They seek to rule over man, the people in Cyrodiil and the people Skyrim are no different to them. The Legion maintains garrisons in all provinces of the Empire. They're wasting soldiers during the Civil war when Cyrodiil sends reinforcements, they also had to send Tullius, who was sent to Skyrim by request of the Emperor himself.

We don't know how things are in Hammerfell, there is very limited information in what is currently happening over there. There is no fighting during the elder scrolls Skyrim with the Aldmeri Dominion either? They seek Elven superiority over man, so they'll invade them some day if they had the chance.

 

[The Laoch]

They seek to rule over man, the people in Cyrodiil and the people Skyrim are no different to them. The Legion maintains garrisons in all provinces of the Empire. They're wasting soldiers during the Civil war when Cyrodiil sends reinforcements, they also had to send Tullius, who was sent to Skyrim by request of the Emperor himself.

We don't know how things are in Hammerfell, there is very limited information in what is currently happening over there. There is no fighting during the elder scrolls Skyrim with the Aldmeri Dominion either? They seek Elven superiority over man, so they'll invade them some day if they had the chance.

My breton characters want the return of the Empire, but I find it hard if the Mede leadership is continued. Like you said I rather see Tullius down south by Anvil or Border watch. I just feel the Empire should of let Skyrim go or bring in the High Rock Legion so the Nords could feel the fury of the Bretons haha. The Aldmeri Dominion due seek superiority ,but at this time both sides are to weak to attack each other. So like I said bring in High Rock and slaughter the Stormcloaks or let Skyrim try to be a province that the empire could ally up with. Not saying that is a 100 percent change though.

Edit: sorry I meant water's edge not border watch.

 

[Moris]

You are right ,but would you argue that the Aldmeri dominion wants the Empire dead before they would attack Skyrim? All I want to say is if the Aldmeri forces can't attack Skyrim on the sea than I think it is safe to say the Stormcloaks are good enough to keep the Dominion out. What is the point of the Empire wasting troops in Skyrim if the Aldmeri forces must attack it by land? They should use those troops on the border ( of course I am talking about a post civil war)

And the Hammerfell incident yes they fought for the following years ,but I meant at the very time of elder scrolls Skyrim. I'm sorry I didn't clarified, the Thalmor couldn't get their land in Hammerfell so they signed the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai and withdrew their forces. I don't see any fighting coming since in that province.

See, this is my question too. Assuming the Empire isn't just going to let the Dominion march through Cyrodiil, Skyrim isn't threatened by them.

So, yeah. By virtue of geography, Cyrodiil keeps the Dominion out of Skyrim. Let's be thankful for that. We've got a classic buffer zone. But Skryim would still have that buffer zone as an independent nation too, unless the Empire was too weak to defend itself. So I'm not sure where the advantage to being part of the Empire is for Skyrim. I see how the Empire benefits. But I'm not sure how Skyrim benefits. Could someone explain? Please don't bring up the whole trade thing. Independent nations are totally capable of trading and Skyrim managed to feed itself adequately for centuries before they were part of an empire, so I'm far from convinced that it would starve without Empire resources. I want to know what *other* benefits Skyrim gets from being part of the Empire that it wouldn't get just by virtue of its geographical location.

 

[Dagmar]

So I'm not sure where the advantage to being part of the Empire is for Skyrim. I see how the Empire benefits. But I'm not sure how Skyrim benefits. Could someone explain?

Strength in numbers. It's really that simple. It's not good for Skyrim if the Aldmeri Dominion launches a successful assault on Cyrodiil regardless of whether it's part of the Empire or not and Skyrim has always provided significant amount of soldiers for the Imperial Legions. If the Empire didn't have the Legions from Skyrim to reinforce it on the war front in Cyrodiil during the Great War the outcome might have been very different.

If Cyrodiil were to fall to a second assault from Aldmeri Dominion forces because of lack of reinforcements from Skyrim that's detrimental to Skyrim's security. Of course no one actually knows what's going on in the Aldmeri Dominion so no one can say with any certainty that something like that could actually happen.

 

[Moris]

Strength in numbers. It's really that simple. It's not good for Skyrim if the Aldmeri Dominion launches a successful assault on Cyrodiil regardless of whether it's part of the Empire or not and Skyrim has always provided significant amount of soldiers for the Imperial Legions. If the Empire didn't have the Legions from Skyrim to reinforce it on the war front in Cyrodiil during the Great War the outcome might have been very different.

If Cyrodiil were to fall to a second assault from Aldmeri Dominion forces because of lack of reinforcements from Skyrim that's detrimental to Skyrim's security. Of course no one actually knows what's going on in the Aldmeri Dominion so no one can say with any certainty that something like that could actually happen.

Thank you. This is totally reasonable. I'm wondering then what it is about this particular political environment that leads people to believe a coalition force of independent allies (as opposed to a united force of Imperials which includes legions recruited in Skyrim) could not adequately protect Cyrodiil?

 

[Dagmar]

I'm wondering then what it is about this particular political environment that leads people to believe a coalition force of independent allies (as opposed to a united force of Imperials which includes legions recruited in Skyrim) could not adequately protect Cyrodiil?

The fact that it isn't viable in this particular political environment. After observing Ulfric's palpable hatred for the Empire, entertaining the notion that Skyrim would form an alliance with the Empire during his reign is simply not a credible position to take. As self destructive as his attitude might be, he would probably enjoy seeing Cyrodiil suffer at the hands of the Aldmeri Dominion. That's just how he rolls.

Hammerfell isn't exactly full of warm fuzzy feelings for the Empire either after what happened with the White-Gold Concordat. Keep in mind that we're also talking about a province composed of factions that are so petty when it comes to things like this that they are willing to sit back and watch their own countrymen from rival factions suffer at the hands of invading forces without lifting a finger to aid them (the Forebears received no aid from the Crowns when Camoran Usurper invaded and conquered their cities and the Crowns likewise received no aid from the Forebears when the Nords conquered and occupied their cities).

 

[Moris]

The fact that it isn't viable in this particular political environment. After observing Ulfric's palpable hatred for the Empire, entertaining the notion that Skyrim would form an alliance with the Empire during his reign is simply not a credible position to take. As self destructive as his attitude might be, he would probably enjoy seeing Cyrodiil suffer at the hands of the Aldmeri Dominion. That's just how he rolls.

This is one of those things which, to me, seems like a matter of perception. Ulfric served in the Legion. He has old friends in it. When his forces storm Castle Dour, he tells Rikke to go rather than die (though she refuses). He is quite willing to spare Elisif as long as it's clear she will pose no threat. He doesn't feel the need to exact vengeance on everyone merely for vengeance's sake. So I think it could go either way. However, that it could go either way is a good reason not to want to *rely* on the idea of a strong coalition. I can see that. A coalition may be possible, I think. But not as powerful a one. It would be, in any case, always with the threat of internal division.

Hammerfell isn't exactly full of warm fuzzy feelings for the Empire either after what happened with the White-Gold Concordat. Keep in mind that we're also talking about a province composed of factions that are so petty when it comes to things like this that they are willing to sit back and watch their own countrymen from rival factions suffer at the hands of invading forces without lifting a finger to aid them (the Forebears received no aid from the Crowns when Camoran Usurper invaded and conquered their cities and the Crowns likewise received no aid from the Forebears when the Nords conquered and occupied their cities).

I'll bow to your greater knowledge. We are not talking about NATO here, then.

 

[Dagmar]

...Ulfric served in the Legion...

That's not really persuasive. Ulfric has no problem killing thousands of Legionnaires during the civil war so it's indisputable that his time in the Legion hasn't left him with any vestigial feelings for it or the Empire

....He has old friends in it. When his forces storm Castle Dour, he tells Rikke to go rather than die (though she refuses)...

Ulfric's offer to Rikke is in spite of her being a Legionnaire not because of it. It's because she's a Nord and the three of them (Galmar) literally fought side by side in the past. They probably saved one another's lives several times over during their time together but that's a kind of loyalty that has nothing to do with any predisposition towards the Legion or the Empire.

...He is quite willing to spare Elisif as long as it's clear she will pose no threat...

This is a political decision on his part. Sparing Elisif serves as an opiate for the remaining Nords that support the Empire. Killing her would merely martyr her and incite the very same Nords.

...He doesn't feel the need to exact vengeance on everyone merely for vengeance's sake...

The Empire isn't everyone. If you listen to all his dialogues about the Empire he views the Empire as the enemy, period. He implies several times that the Empire deserves to collapse because it is too weak and doesn't deserve to continue its existence. He says he would like to kill the Emperor. There is no either way. There is only Ulfric's way and that way is not one that will allow for an alliance with the Empire.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Shhhh. Sometimes faith clouds judgement. Though I find I want to hear the Forsworn's opinion for it is at least fresh to me. Moris I am afraid we have gone over all possible arguments. Remember Raijin and Dagmar have sundered greater arguments than either of ours.

 

[Moris]

That's not really persuasive. Ulfric has no problem killing thousands of Legionnaires during the civil war so it's indisputable that his time in the Legion hasn't left him with any vestigial feelings for it or the Empire
Ulfric's offer to Rikke is in spite of her being a Legionnaire not because of it. It's because she's a Nord and the three of them (Galmar) literally fought side by side in the past. They probably saved one another's lives several times over during their time together but that's a kind of loyalty that has nothing to do with any predisposition towards the Legion or the Empire.
This is a political decision on his part. Sparing Elisif serves as an opiate for the remaining Nords that support the Empire. Killing her would merely martyr her and incite the very same Nords.
The Empire isn't everyone. If you listen to all his dialogues about the Empire he views the Empire as the enemy, period. He implies several times that the Empire deserves to collapse because it is too weak and doesn't deserve to continue its existence. He says he would like to kill the Emperor. There is no either way. There is only Ulfric's way and that way is not one that will allow for an alliance with the Empire.

Of course Ulfric views the Empire as the enemy as long as he is fighting on one side of a civil war. That doesn't mean that if peace were brokered, he would continue to view it that way.

You think Ulfric can make a political decision to spare Elisif but not a political decision to ally with the Empire, should the need arise? Why do you believe he can do the one and not the other? Especially since the need to ally with the Empire has not yet arisen. It might be years before even Cyrodiil faced a real thread from the Dominion. Old wounds can heal somewhat over time if nothing happens to reopen them.

Ulfric's dialogue:

"Ill never surrended Skyrim into the hands of a corrupt and dying Empire."

"It is you who fought a dying Empire who sunk its claws into our land, trying to drag us down with it."

"We're fighting because because we're done bleeding for the Empire that won't bleed for us."

"Skyrim being sold to the Thalmor so the Emperor could keep his thone."

"When we're done rooting out the Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."

It's clear, indeed, that he has no love of the Empire. But I don't see any real evidence that he wishes to see it collapse altogether. I do see evidence that he wants it out of Skyrim. That's not the same thing, though. Am I missing a key piece of dialogue here?

 

[Moris]

Shhhh. Sometimes faith clouds judgement. Though I find I want to hear the Forsworn's opinion for it is at least fresh to me. Moris I am afraid we have gone over all possible arguments. Remember Raijin and Dagmar have sundered greater arguments than either of ours.

First of all, much as I love his passion and respect his doggedness, Raijin hasn't actually sundered anything in this thread. Second, I have great... scratch that... the utmost respect for Dagmar's knowledge of the lore, which is why, as long as I have her attention, I'm asking these questions. (Even though I'm sure she's sick of answering.)

 

[The Laoch]

I have two questions I would like answered, since I never caught them in lore/Skyrim

1) If the Aldmeri win how will they treat Humans? Will they go back to slaves, because that won't last long. Or will they be 2nd class citizens? same with beast races.

2) Elves may be fighting a losing battle. The snow elves killed the Nede since they saw them as a threat. The Nede people reproduced faster than Mer. I know we are not taking about the Krogan Wars from Mass effect, but could you assume in a war of attrition the Man races could just out breed them? If you look back in time like when the American pioneers went west, we were having more children and killing Natives fast than they could reproduce. The Man races rebelled against their Mer slave owners and won, even though the Mer were very advance.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

The Aldermeri as I understand is trying to remove humanity, as in never existed. It would be done through magical means, so if the Dominion is still actively trying to do this then... well armies disappearing from some mass ritual and such. After all removing the chance humanity ever existed well if they succeeded who would know?

First of all, much as I love his passion and respect his doggedness, Raijin hasn't actually sundered anything in this thread. Second, I have great... scratch that... the utmost respect for Dagmar's knowledge of the lore, which is why, as long as I have her attention, I'm asking these questions. (Even though I'm sure she's sick of answering.)

lol Sundered is just an exaggerated term for defeating an argument. And true hard not to respect the ridiculous amount of knowledge Dagmar finds. But I suppose in the end it is more who has the loudest voice, and it seems the Stormcloaks are a minority, and not even a vocal one at times.

 

[Dagmar]

It's clear, indeed, that he has no love of the Empire. But I don't see any real evidence that he wishes to see it collapse altogether. I do see evidence that he wants it out of Skyrim. That's not the same thing, though. Am I missing a key piece of dialogue here?

...We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire....

Those aren't the words and sentiment of a man who wants to make peace with the Empire. His only reason for not attacking Solitude and killing Titus Mede II is fear of repercussions that the Stormcloaks won't be able to handle. The implication is if he thought he could get away with it he would do it in a heartbeat, i.e. if the Stormcloaks were large enough and powerful enough he would be willing to ignite an all out war between the Stormcloaks and the Empire rather than a civil war confined to Skyrim just so he could satisfy his bloodlust in exacting revenge against the Emperor. These are not the words of a man whose going to come to the Emperor's aid if the Aldmeri Dominion attacks Cyrodiil.

Ulfric isn't just mad at the Empire and the Imperial Legion because of the White-Gold Conocordat. He's angry at them for imprisoning him. He's angry because the Emperor denied him the ability to be at his father's side when he died and to attend his funeral. When he speaks against the Empire there is often a visceral tone of contempt and hatred that aren't captured by just looking at words in text. It's a very personal kind of hatred that transcends any philosophical or political reasons to wage war against the Empire in Skyrim.

Two of the dialogues you quoted make it clear that from Ulfric's point of view the Empire is dying. Galmar, whose thoughts are close to Ulfric's flat out says that the world would be better off without the Empire. One of the quotes you cited implies that under Ulfric's rule Skyrim won't be dragged down defending the Empire. So in addition to deeply hating the Empire why would Ulfric recommit Skyrim to a lost cause simply because the political relationship is different? Why would he commit to an alliance which from his perspective would be a waste of Skyrim's resources to defend a man whom he professes a desire to personally kill?

Further, look at Ulfric's attitude and actions at the end of the Battle for Solitude and ask yourself if they're consistent with a man whose interested in negotiating peace with the Empire let alone an alliance. He has the opportunity to accept Tullius's surrender and to use him as a bargaining chip to broker peace with the Empire but instead he kills him. That too is not the action of a man looking with an eye to a future which includes peace with the Empire.

 

[Mr Forz]

Concerning the choice, it only has something to do with your opinion. There was some bad story between Elenwen and Ulfric regarding the dossier, and she might even have supported this rebellion just so Skyrim would continue to be weakened.

Choosing one side or another will have more or less the same general consequence: A united Empire, or a united Skyrim with the rest of the Empire changing his side when the Thalmor will hit.

The point was most likely to end the civil war.

 

[Moris]

feliciano182

You know what would be helpful in this debate? If instead of just ticking the red disagree box like someone who just joined the forums yesterday, you would take the time to point out exactly what it is that you disagree with. Otherwise, it really does look like you're just taking the opportunity to play a ratings game. And that is Lame McLamesky, man.

Don't bother this time, though. If whose side someone takes in a fictional war in a videogame is that important to you, I'll let ya win, and I won't be back to read a response.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Whoa whoa man. little passive aggressive lol

 

[bosmernagini]

I chose Stormcloak even though I play a wood elf. I think that some of the Stormcloaks are sexy!

Seriously though I do agree with their cause