Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

That is true, but being a General is different to a Jarl of Politics.
Ulfric was in the legion aswell, he was probably an Officer.

Just adding to myself, on how you don't trust Military high ranks, for whatever reason?

I find it more easier, at least with the Military it is simple and generally always one goal, defeat the enemy. I find it harder to trust someone in politics, than a Military person.

 

[Moris]

Just adding to myself, on how you don't trust Military high ranks, for whatever reason?

I find it more easier, at least with the Military it is simple and generally always one goal, defeat the enemy. I find it harder to trust someone in politics, than a Military person.

I find high ranked military people tend to think in very black and white terms, and have very, very low tolerance for ambiguity and doubt. They are difficult people to talk to as a result, and have trouble admitting to mistakes.

Politicians are hard to trust for different reasons, but you can at least talk to them privately, and they tend to have a very high tolerance for ambiguity and doubt. This makes conversation with them entertaining. They often make great skeptics, and will more readily listen to opposing viewpoints.

 

[OckhamsFolly]

Yeah, no CK here. I'm on xbox, much to my chagrin. I bet that's interesting.

It's not that Ulfric's a bad person. It's that there's just not enough information, and perhaps I put the worst face on things. It's not bad to leave it up to the players to decide, it's good, but it is bad to have those decisions never play a part in anything. As far as I know, there's not even a way to defect if you want to, much less change how your side goes about the war, and that linearity really turned me off. You just couldn't resolve any of it. And the quests on both sides were such mirror images, it was a big let down to try the other path.

So all around I'm just not crazy about the civil war plotline. I guess I'm pretty much still stuck on Morrowind, where I felt my choices actually mattered more to the world I lived in. Give me the political struggles of Hlaalu, Redoran and Telvanni any day.

And to be fair, at low levels imperial armor is pretty cool, albeit not as cool as banded iron. But isn't that a reason to kill Imperials? After all, you don't want a bunch of fetchers running around in the same gear as you.

 

[Moris]

Yeah, no CK here. I'm on xbox, much to my chagrin. I bet that's interesting.

It's not that Ulfric's a bad person. It's that there's just not enough information, and perhaps I put the worst face on things. It's not bad to leave it up to the players to decide, necessarily, but it is bad to have those decisions never play a part in anything. As far as I know, there's not even a way to defect if you want to, much less change how your side goes about the war, and that linearity really turned me off. You just couldn't resolve any of it. And the quests on both sides were such mirror images, it was a big let down to try the other path.

So all around I'm just not crazy about the civil war plotline. I guess I'm pretty much still stuck on Morrowind, where I felt my choices actually mattered more to the world I lived in. Give me the political struggles of Hlaalu, Redoran and Telvanni any day.

And to be fair, at low levels imperial armor is pretty cool, albeit not as cool as banded iron. But isn't that a reason to kill Imperials? After all, you don't want a bunch of fetchers running around in the same gear as you.

Agree.

Well, the impact of player decisions on the game is weak in Skyrim. I have to agree. If anything, I think it's the biggest weakness. Bugs, glitches, CTD's -- these are all annoying. But not feeling as though anyone really cares what you do, aside from some guards who just want to make sure they have the appropriate snide remark ready for you, makes the character feel kinda lonely and bewildered. No wonder so many of us end up being mercenaries -- until we have 437,598 septims and could buy armor and weapons for every soldier in Tamriel. Then it turns into killing for fun and going on werewolf/vampire rampages or collecting NPC heads or assassinating Victoria Vicci by dropping a horker on top of her --

Warning: Foul language, potentially offensive themes, probably NSFW:

-- because what else is left?

I often think that arguing in this thread is more entertaining than playing the bloody quest that inspired it.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

It means that Ulfric is bad for Skyrim, so the Stormcloaks are bad for Skyrim. And Raijin? I find it interesting that when I give a good argument against the Stormcoaks, you start insulting Jarls and insulting the King that Ulfric killed. If we're doing that, how about looking at Stormcoak Jarls? We have Skald, a backwards religious bigot, Silver-Blood, a ruthless businessman that exploits people and tried to give you a life sentence, Law-Giver, a weak ruler at the mercy of Maven Back-Briar, Dengeir, a paranoid conspiracy theorist, and Sorli, who lives in a cottage while the miners she lives near get tents. As for Ulfric, he betrayed his king and empire to wage war with an enemy that fought the combined forces of man to a standstill. He took some misguided ownership of Skyrim, even though half if its people believe he's misguided at best. Worst of all, Ulfric betrayed Skyrim's loyalty to the Empire, abandoning the same honor he claims the Imperials lack. All of this utterly destroys most of the good that the White Gold Concordate might have done. Because Ulfric drew the proverbial eye of Sauron, the Empire has to either play along with the terms of their treaty, or go back to the Aldmeri Dominion actively trying to destroy them. Of course, this is just fine with the Thalmor since Ulfric's killing them anyway.
In conclusion, whenever you feel like carelessly insulting the Empire, read what I posted here and choke on it.

 

[feliciano182]

Maybe the real lesson here is Bethesda had no idea how to write a satisfactory and compelling war story.

The only problem with The Civil War is it's debate, specifically, the sheer rationalization from one side of the equation, the blue side.

Frankly, the only strong argument I have ever heard to support The Stormcloaks is Dagmar's "Who You Care About" (as I like to call it):

As it stands, there's a good chance that the Aldmeri Dominion will continue it's campaign to conquer Tamriel once again, as we all know, there's two provinces that stand in their way, Hammerfell and Cyrodiil.

None of those is Skyrim.

As such, "the land of the nords" is by no means in any way of direct danger from a Dominion invasion, only The Empire is, and if you harbor negative feelings about The Legions or anything related to Cyrodiil, then you shouldn't concern yourself in this matter; if you don't care about a unified Tamriel, then by all means, join The Stormcloaks, kick The Empire out and enjoy your snowy lands and praying to your Talos shrine, the Dominion won't leave a war with The Empire completely unscathed, they will suffer losses, and it will allow for the nords to prepare if times of hostility approach.

The problem here of course, it's that this is not enough for the people who support The Stormcloaks, "nationalism" and "traditionalism" don't make the cut, they need their cause to be undoubtedly justified at a moral level, in a post-Star Wars era videogame, it is necessary for the rebels to be the good guys at their core, even when the story makes it clear that you will not find such a thing within the questline.

And thus, we have to engage in endless debates, constantly discussing in circles over and over, going round and round with each topic; this is precisely why we have stuff like "Tullius is a ruthless, uncaring basterd!", "The White-Gold Concordat is a disgraceful surrender from a weak Empire!", "There are no women in The Empire, sexism!" or my favorite "Ulfric was an innocent white dove who merely followed the orders of the evil bastard that is Igmund!".

Cartoonified examples I'll admit, but after a while, they become noise.

 

[DayWalker]

Well, truth is the Imperial Legion isn't withholding the White Gold Concordat, they only merely agreed on it so they wouldn't be annihilated by the damned Elves. I remember walking and spotting the Thalmor Judiciaries, and when i spoke with them, they said that they were on their way to have a meeting with Tullius about keeping him in check to make sure he's withholding their peace bargain. However, the when Ulfiric challenged the High King, he killed him by the Thu'um, then drew his blade. High King will later tell you that he honored Ulfiric and fought fearlessly, but can Ulfiric say the same? By Skyrim lore, it was actually an unjust battle, and BECAUSE he killed the King, was the result of the crackdown of killing those who worship Talos; Ulfiric used that to continue his rationale on rebelling. BOTH imperials and Stormcloaks are actually Nordic people, but the south broke away to forge the Empire, whereas the North refused.

-My vote goes for the Legion.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Agree.

Well, the impact of player decisions on the game is weak in Skyrim. I have to agree. If anything, I think it's the biggest weakness. Bugs, glitches, CTD's -- these are all annoying. But not feeling as though anyone really cares what you do, aside from some guards who just want to make sure they have the appropriate snide remark ready for you, makes the character feel kinda lonely and bewildered. No wonder so many of us end up being mercenaries -- until we have 437,598 septims and could buy armor and weapons for every soldier in Tamriel. Then it turns into killing for fun and going on werewolf/vampire rampages or collecting NPC heads or assassinating Victoria Vicci by dropping a horker on top of her

That is why I liked Oblivion, It at least let you know you finished the main quest. I liked how there was fame and infamy and there was an arena something you could bet on. I used to bet money then start shouting "YOU STUPID BLUE FIGHT BACK!" or "FINISH HIM!!" win some money or lose some. Or fight in it and become the grand champion with your own annoying little fan.

Where you start shouting "ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?"

 

[DayWalker]

You can be neutral - kind of if you don't join either side and follow through the main quest. Or if you favor one side or the other, during the peace treaty you can favor one side or the other.

 

[Dagmar]

....BOTH imperials and Stormcloaks are actually Nordic people, but the south broke away to forge the Empire, whereas the North refused....

Colovians (Imperials) and Nords are descendants of the Nedes, the proto-human counterpart to the Aldmer. The Nedes settled in many areas of Tamriel to evolve into the Colovians and Nords and crossbred with Aldmer to evolve into Bretons as well.

The first Empire was the First Empire of the Nords and at its height was it was composed of Skyrim and portions of High Rock, Morrowind and Cyrodiil. The Nordic Empire collapsed during the War of Succession. As the Nordic Empire waned the Allesian Empire, or First Imperial Empire grew. Every Empire since then has been ruled from the Imperial City which is why they're referred to as Imperial Empires, but they've all been multi-racial and multi-cultural. This is why a distinction between the Imperial race and the Nord race isn't appropriate in the context of the civil war. The civil war isn't a racial conflict.

 

[DrunkenMage]

"The Amulet is shattered. Dagon is defeated. With the Dragon's blood, and the Amulet of Kings, we have sealed the gates of Oblivion... forever. The last of the Septims passes now into history. I go gladly, for I know my sacrifice is not in vain. I take my place with my father, and my father's fathers. The Third Age has ended, and a new age dawns. When the next Elder Scroll is written, you shall be its scribe. The shape of the future, the fate of the Empire, these things now belong to you."

Can't let Sean Bean die in vain, have to preserve the Empire.

 

[feliciano182]

"The Amulet is shattered. Dagon is defeated. With the Dragon's blood, and the Amulet of Kings, we have sealed the gates of Oblivion... forever. The last of the Septims passes now into history. I go gladly, for I know my sacrifice is not in vain. I take my place with my father, and my father's fathers. The Third Age has ended, and a new age dawns. When the next Elder Scroll is written, you shall be its scribe. The shape of the future, the fate of the Empire, these things now belong to you."

Can't let Sean Bean die in vain, have to preserve the Empire.

Martin Septim's speech at Bruma...........BY THE GODS !

 

[DrunkenMage]

Martin Septim's speech at Bruma...........BY THE GODS !

"Soldiers of Cyrodiil! The Empire will stand or fall by what we do here today! Will we let the daedra do to Bruma what they did to Kvatch? Will we let them burn our homes? We will let them kill our families? No! We make our stand here, today, for the whole of Cyrodiil! We must hold fast until the Hero of Kvatch can destroy their Great Gate. We must kill whatever comes out of that gate! Soldiers of Cyrodiil! Do you stand with me?"

 

[Raijin]

"The Amulet is shattered. Dagon is defeated. With the Dragon's blood, and the Amulet of Kings, we have sealed the gates of Oblivion... forever. The last of the Septims passes now into history. I go gladly, for I know my sacrifice is not in vain. I take my place with my father, and my father's fathers. The Third Age has ended, and a new age dawns. When the next Elder Scroll is written, you shall be its scribe. The shape of the future, the fate of the Empire, these things now belong to you."

Can't let Sean Bean die in vain, have to preserve the Empire.

Rest in peace Brother Martin... the last true Emperor of Tamriel.

Call me a pussy but that speech was just fluffing beautiful. This is the Empire I would GLADLY accept to join to fight against the Stormcloaks ANYTIME of the day.

The last true Emperor

 

[Moris]

Bingo!

That didn't take long. Feel free to play at home.

 

[Raijin]

Moris I wanted to give you some rep loving, but an error popped up and gave me this message: 5 different users must be given reputation before hitting the same person again.

 

[Moris]

Moris I wanted to give you some rep loving, but an error popped up and gave me this message: 5 different users must be given reputation before hitting the same person again.

Yeah. You have to spread the love around a bit.

Thank you, though. It's the thought that counts, right?

 

[Raijin]

Yeah. You have to spread the love around a bit.

Thank you, though. It's the thought that counts, right?

I'm cracking up here If only we can make it so that we can actually play bingo on that card it would be nice I'd most certainly like the idea of Skyrim's forum bingo style

 

[Moris]

I'm cracking up here If only we can make it so that we can actually play bingo on that card it would be nice I'd most certainly like the idea of Skyrim's forum bingo style

I need to make the SC version, though. Can't play without the matching set.

 

[Raijin]

I need to make the SC version, though. Can't play without the matching set.

That will be something else I'm looking forward of seeing the SC version