Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Moris]

They just don't know their limits :/

I actually think it's entirely possible that the irony in the video eluded you. But I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Moris]

((...you two are starting to sound like a couple.))

Nonsense. I'm likely twice his age.

 

[OckhamsFolly]

I've never seen the President of the United States reading legislation before he signs it into law. Gosh. Perhaps he never does.

Seriously, though. You HAVE to fill in some spaces in this game. Not everything can be presented, and especially not when the creators want to maintain a reasonable ambiguity.

Talos worship, moreover, might not be a big deal to someone who readily disregards religion as the realm of zealots and crazies. But I know a great many devout people who would DIE for the cause if their government banned the public worship of their god(s), even if that ban was not perfectly and totally enforced. How this can be poo-pood away -- in a game in which divine beings are undeniably real -- I find hard to understand.

Well, the first sentence is a gross mischaracterization of what I said. I said you never see Ulfric do one thing that benefits the common man. That is in no way comparable with reading legislation before signing it into law. It is perhaps comparable with the president signing something into law- I don't see Obama as he agonizes over the decision to make healthcare nationalized, but I see him attempt to do it and I know that he is trying to make life better for people who need it. You never see or hear anything about Ulfric except him pursuing his war. You don't see him also championing the Dunmer right to worship Azura/Mephala/Boethiah- if he really cared about religious freedom, and not just HIS religious freedom, why isn't there at least an altar to Azura in the Gray Quarter? Why is there not even a mention of that in Windhelm? Where is his lament that bandits run rampant throughout Skyrim now that both his and the Empire's fighting men are concerned with fighting each other instead of keeping the peace? Shouldn't he touch on the issue? I don't remember who, bht I know one of the Imperials did. Couldn't Ulfric be bothered to show the same concern for a deadly dangerous issue that threatens the life and livelihood of your average citizen?

I also never said all devout people willing to die for their beliefs are zealots, just that Ulfric is. He's so wrapped up in his grand vision that he never addresses the way his soldiers eun roughshod over the non-nord citizens of the conquered holds. Where's the compensation for The Bannered Mare having to deal with their drunken and raucous fight? Where's the protection for Belethor and Arcadia's intrinsic rights? No, not all devout people are zealots, but devout people who pursue their ends to the detriment of people who have no quarrel with them are. People who don't care who they hurt in pursuit of their beliefs are. Ulfric seems such a man. Are you going to tell me it wouldn't have been far more interesting if we could have done something with their complaints, and found out if Ulfric was willing to crack down on his men or let it slide?

Yes you have to fill in SOME spaces. But you shouldn't have to fill in ALL the spaces. One act would have made a significant difference.

 

[Raijin]

Nonsense. I'm likely twice his age.

really how old are you?

 

[Ozan]

really how old are you?

One should never ask a woman her age. Specifically such a woman who is gentle upon all eyes, displays grace, possesses intellect, and potential to beat one to death with his own arms.

Avoid this.

 

[Moris]

Well, the first sentence is a gross mischaracterization of what I said. I said you never see Ulfric do one thing that benefits the common man. That is in no way comparable with reading legislation before signing it into law. It is perhaps comparable with the president signing something into law- I don't see Obama as he agonizes over the decision to make healthcare nationalized, but I see him attempt to do it and I know that he is trying to make life better for people who need it. You never see or hear anything about Ulfric except him pursuing his war. You don't see him also championing the Dunmer right to worship Azura/Mephala/Boethiah- if he really cared about religious freedom, and not just HIS religious freedom, why isn't there at least an altar to Azura in the Gray Quarter? Why is there not even a mention of that in Windhelm? Where is his lament that bandits run rampant throughout Skyrim now that both his and the Empire's fighting men are concerned with fighting each other instead of keeping the peace? Shouldn't he touch on the issue? I don't remember who, bht I know one of the Imperials did. Couldn't Ulfric be bothered to show the same concern for a deadly dangerous issue that threatens the life and livelihood of your average citizen?

I also never said all devout people willing to die for their beliefs are zealots, just that Ulfric is. He's so wrapped up in his grand vision that he never addresses the way his soldiers eun roughshod over the non-nord citizens of the conquered holds. Where's the compensation for The Bannered Mare having to deal with their drunken and raucous fight? Where's the protection for Belethor and Arcadia's intrinsic rights? No, not all devout people are zealots, but devout people who pursue their ends to the detriment of people who have no quarrel with them are. People who don't care who they hurt in pursuit of their beliefs are. Ulfric seems such a man. Are you going to tell me it wouldn't have been far more interesting if we could have done something with their complaints, and found out if Ulfric was willing to crack down on his men or let it slide?

Yes you have to fill in SOME spaces. But you shouldn't have to fill in ALL the spaces. One act would have made a significant difference.

The Bannered Mare and Belethor and Arcadia are in Whiterun.

The differences between Imperial rule and Stormcloak rule in Skyrim after the war are:

Some promises by Free-Winter to do something about the Dunmer (though no perceived action); Arcadia and Adrianne complaining that the soldiers aren't quite as willing to purchase from them

versus

Thalmor free to roam through the castles of all the holds and arrest anyone they feel like.

I guess it all depends where your priorities lie.

--

ETA: If we had seen some of the things you suggest, it might have unbalanced the story. He has to remain ambiguous. Or some of us could never have joined the Empire.

 

[Raijin]

One should never ask a woman her age. Specifically such a woman who is gentle upon all eyes, displays grace, possesses intellect, and potential to beat one to death with his own arms.

Avoid this.

Moris is a woman? I had no idea. I always thought I was speaking to a man. Clicking on her profile doesn't tell me anything.

 

[Moris]

Moris is a woman? I had no idea. I always thought I was speaking to a man. Clicking on her profile doesn't tell me anything.

ROFLMAO. Good. You see that it doesn't matter what gender a person it, then.

 

[Raijin]

ROFLMAO. Good. You see that it doesn't matter what gender a person it, then.

I should've known after I submitted that video.

 

[OckhamsFolly]

The Bannered Mare and Belethor and Arcadia are in Whiterun.

The differences between Imperial rule and Stormcloak rule in Skyrim after the war are:

Some promises by Free-Winter to do something about the Dunmer (though no perceived action); Arcadia and Adrianne complaining that the soldiers aren't quite as willing to purchase from them

versus

Thalmor free to roam through the castles of all the holds and arrest anyone they feel like.

I guess it all depends where your priorities lie.

Yes, they're in Whiterun. That would be why I said in the conquered holds. And isn't the Stormcloaks unwillingness to buy from them a sympton of their racism? As the town's sole alchemist, for example, wouldn't the soldiers being unwilling to purchase her goods lead longterm to a significant falloff in Arcadia's business and perhaps the eventual collapse of her livelihood? It's more insidious and subtle, but being forced into poverty isn't something you laugh off.

Where's tbe evidence that Thalmor can sieze anyone without evidence? I don't recall a character who they charged denying being guilty of a crime, even if its an unjust law. That isn't better than what happens under Ulfric, of course, but its not the same as being able to arrest anyone they feel like.

At least Free-Winter had something to say on an issue that didn't directly pertain to his own interests. Yes, it would have been nice to see results, but all I'm saying is Ulfric should have had an extra line or two of dialogue too. I can understand that programming a wider reaction would have been a lot of work for a relatively small detail. A comment on the situation, like Free-Winter's, would have been sufficient. Regardless, it doesn't address why the Dunmer don't seem to have freedom of religion in Windhelm or why nobody cares. Including the Dunmer themselves. That is an oversight of Bethesda's, not a failing of Ulfric's. I was using it as an example of how Bethesda could have added more depth to the situation, and instead they ignkred it completely when they shouldn't have. It means there is no ingame way to determine if the Stormcloaks are just racist or if they're also just as intolerant of other religions as the Thalmor.

I also apologize for the several times I've accidentally clicked "off-topic" for your posts. I'm on a tablet and keep bumping it when I go to hit reply.

 

[Moris]

What do you mean the Dunmer don't have freedom of religion in Windhelm?

ETA: Again, while I often think it would have been nice for Ulfric to show a more charitable side, I think it would have unbalanced many reactions to him, and made it too difficult for some people to side with the Empire.

I mean, I would have liked to see Tullius show some shred of caring for the people of Skyrim. But he doesn't. At least, I don't see it.

 

[Raijin]

Arcadia and Adrianne complaining that the soldiers aren't quite as willing to purchase from them

You know the deal about Adrianne and how the soldiers aren't willing purchase from her is somewhat of a cop out. It's the same deal with a people who happens to be black breaks the law and get captured by the police. They use the race card to convince people that their being targeted against by law enforcement because of the color of their skin.

The fact is people want quality. Unfortunately for Adrianne she picked the wrong hold to create competition in blacksmithing.

If you were a soldier and came to whiterun for new set of armor and weapons who would you go to? Eorlund Gray-Mane (The best blacksmith in Skyrim) or fresh off of the boat, Adrianne? I'm certain you would proudly pay more for quality set of armor that came from the Skyforge.

 

[Moris]

You know the deal about Adrianne and how the soldiers aren't willing purchase from her is somewhat of a cop out. It's the same deal with a people who happens to be black breaks the law and get captured by the police. They use the race card to convince people that their being targeted against by law enforcement because of the color of their skin.

I don't want to get into this argument here. But let's just say: I've done some real academic research on arrest rates, and conviction rates, and compiled the demographic data, and... I have no reason to believe that claims of racial discrimination in law enforcement and the criminal justice system are not very, very real, and very deeply problematic, particularly in some areas. Dismissing this as using the "race card" is, to my mind, shockingly naive.

---

I won't deny Ockham's point about the economic consequences of Stormcloak racism.

 

[Ozan]

I don't want to get into this argument here. But let's just say: I've done some real academic research on arrest rates, and conviction rates, and compiled the demographic data, and... I have no reason to believe that claims of racial discrimination in law enforcement and the criminal justice system are not very, very real, and very deeply problematic, particularly in some areas. Dismissing this as using the "race card" is, to my mind, shockingly naive.

---

I won't deny Ockham's point about the economic consequences of Stormcloak racism.

Meanwhile, Khajiit caravan economy prospers!

 

[Moris]

Meanwhile, Khajiit caravan economy prospers!

This is a good point. However, pointing to the success of one minority in order to excuse the difficulties of another does have its problems. Khajiit are particularly gifted traders. Who can deny that they possess gilded tongues and a level of customer service which exceeds that of their less talented Colovian counterparts. Decades of enforced segregation has perhaps made them work even harder. Not saying that forcing them to trade in caravans outside the cities is a good thing, you understand. But it has a certain selection effect.

 

[Ozan]

This is a good point. However, pointing to the success of one minority in order to excuse the difficulties of another does have its problems. Khajiit are particularly gifted traders. Who can deny that they possess gilded tongues and a level of customer service which exceeds that of their less talented Colovian counterparts. Decades of enforced segregation has perhaps made them work even harder. Not saying that forcing them to trade in caravans outside the cities is a good thing, you understand. But it has a certain selection effect.

That and while complaining that the Nord think Khajiit sells illegal substances, Khajiit sells illegal substances.

 

[Moris]

That and while complaining that the Nord think Khajiit sells illegal substances, Khajiit sells illegal substances.

LOL.

And everyone sells lockpicks.

Must be a lot of people in the habit of misplacing their keys.

 

[Ozan]

LOL.

And everyone sells lockpicks.

Must be a lot of people in the habit of misplacing their keys.

((Happened to me. I locked myself out of breezehome))

 

[Cazimir]

I have always gone with the Imperials. In this playthrough, however, I plan to go neutral-ish with the peace talk. Maybe someday I'll convince myself to go Stormcloak. Probably not soon, though.

 

[Ozan]

I have always gone with the Imperials. In this playthrough, however, I plan to go neutral-ish with the peace talk. Maybe someday I'll convince myself to go Stormcloak. Probably not soon, though.

Perhaps Khajiit may convince and suggest that the Stormcloak is a flavor best tasted soon. The joys of fighting for the people is dutiful and beneficial to One's karma.