Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[LegateFasendil]

I just wanted to talk about this. The problem is that Ulfric knew he was at war with the Empire, he likely knew that the Empire would just kill all the rebels they capture. if he didn't, he is not smart enough to be the leader of the rebellion.

When in a war, and you capture the leader of the enemy force, would you just lock him up under severe/almost entire guard (as in all soldiers in Skyrim just guard Ulfric) until his death? Not likely, you would seek to end the war by executing the enemy leader

Something about this post. Something... something... Oh yeah. Torygg. Why couldn't Ulfric fight off the Empire? You know, himself.

That part about the High King not being able to defend himself. Well Ulfric couldn't defend himself, he allowed the Imperials to bind and gag him.

Hey, I am just saying, when it comes to war, rules of conduct and manners of law/trial and that garbage usually go out the window, especially when it comes to the leader of a rebellion.

Also, it is off-topic, but is anyone else getting annoyed by the way the quotes are handled now (as in, the some posts are quoted but you do not see anything)?

Correct and yes you're right. I must throughoughly admit I has no idea what in the hell the prev conv was about 90% of the time. I just go with it.

 

[Ozan]

I'm going around the table and liking every pro-Imperial and Ozzan. Because he's Ozzan.

That's the best form of Ozan.

I just wanted to talk about this. The problem is that Ulfric knew he was at war with the Empire, he likely knew that the Empire would just kill all the rebels they capture. if he didn't, he is not smart enough to be the leader of the rebellion.

When in a war, and you capture the leader of the enemy force, would you just lock him up under severe/almost entire guard (as in all soldiers in Skyrim just guard Ulfric) until his death? Not likely, you would seek to end the war by executing the enemy leader

Weeeeeeell, the Empire didn't kill ALL the rebels. Rather they made them prisoners. Infact, you can even find Imperials escorting prisoners. In the Stormcloak quests, you liberate a few PoWs (as with Imperials, but we're talking Stormcloak right now). I think it's relatively brutal that Tullius wanted to execute the prisoners, too, if not also somewhat unusual. Why would you execute prisoners? Because they're treasonous? To make a point? So they don't fight again? The Stormcloaks thought they were going to be taken to the Imperial City to be part of a parade for Tullius of sorts, but no. Tullius just wants them all dead, doesn't even say "Kill Ulfric fiiiiirst *evil cackle*" just lets the captain pick 'em. There goes this great strategy Tullius set up, something that won't work twice on the same enemy. Kudos to him.

Hey, I am just saying, when it comes to war, rules of conduct and manners of law/trial and that garbage usually go out the window, especially when it comes to the leader of a rebellion.

True, I suppose, which makes it even more a point of why not taking him to the Imperial City? Why execute him there? Tullius is like a house cat. He catches his mouse, but doesn't know what to do with it after.

 

[Jeremius]

Weeeeeeell, the Empire didn't kill ALL the rebels. Rather they made them prisoners. Infact, you can even find Imperials escorting prisoners. In the Stormcloak quests, you liberate a few PoWs (as with Imperials, but we're talking Stormcloak right now). I think it's relatively brutal that Tullius wanted to execute the prisoners, too, if not also somewhat unusual. Why would you execute prisoners? Because they're treasonous? To make a point? So they don't fight again? The Stormcloaks thought they were going to be taken to the Imperial City to be part of a parade for Tullius of sorts, but no. Tullius just wants them all dead, doesn't even say "Kill Ulfric fiiiiirst *evil cackle*" just lets the captain pick 'em. There goes this great strategy Tullius set up, something that won't work twice on the same enemy. Kudos to him.

True, I suppose, which makes it even more a point of why not taking him to the Imperial City? Why execute him there? Tullius is like a house cat. He catches his mouse, but doesn't know what to do with it after.

Here is the thing, when it comes to the order, I think it was more meant to show Ulfric what he led his men to. For the reason Helgen was chosen, I think @DrunkenMage mentioned awhile back that the pass that led to Cyrodiil was closed off, or avalanched or something. For the fist part, I talking more about the leaders. If you had the leader of a rebellion, you would not simply lock the leader of the rebellion up, unless it was in a secret prison outside of the continent, due to the risk that the rebels would try to free their leader.

 

[Ozan]

Here is the thing, when it comes to the order, I think it was more meant to show Ulfric what he led his men to. For the reason Helgen was chosen, I think @DrunkenMage mentioned awhile back that the pass that led to Cyrodiil was closed off, or avalanched or something. For the fist part, I talking more about the leaders. If you had the leader of a rebellion, you would not simply lock the leader of the rebellion up, unless it was in a secret prison outside of the continent, due to the risk that the rebels would try to free their leader.

Let them try to free him on a boat headed to Cyrodiil. Or take him to Solitude for Elisif to execute. There are a lot better places than Helgen.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I see a lot of twisting my argument around, fair enough. Two can play.

The effect of being Totalitarian Asshats and getting their nose in places they shouldn't, of course.

Show me the examples of the Empire being Totalitarian. Where they seek to control all aspects of private and public life. Oh, right you can't because the Totalitarian argument stems from politicians trying to put Communists and Facists into one group.

I'm sure they do appear that way to you. Imperialism has that effect on people.

Actually, mainly because they were largely against the Nine Divines and found Imperials to be uptight pricks because all they did was work and visit the chapel of Talos.

Disciplined soldiers aren't militia, they're trained to fight (which was what he had).

So the Stormcloaks aren't disciplined? They don't get any form of training? Tullius is using Militia, so why is it only an excuse for Ulfric?

Think of it as the former High King against Ulfric Stormcloak. Ulfric WRECKED him, I doubt a clone would have faired much better even if they both fought him at the same time. If there was an uprising, they'd have little to no training and wouldn't hold their ground for very long. I'm not impressed.

Yes, he wrecked the boy King. Too cowardly to face Istlod, aye?

Simply because Tiber Septim was cruel and unusual doesn't mean he was a bad warrior. It just meant he knew how to get places, and it wasn't by being nice. Imagine if all the famed Warriors in history were nice people, Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun wouldn't be known for pl*** if they weren't horribly cruel.

Just because Ulfric is a good warrior, doesn't mean he's a good King. Tiber Septim was an effective ruler, Titus also.

What has Ulfric done besides the Civil War? His city requires segregation, mark of a good ruler?

And Ulfric's capture was a fluke.

I'm sure, getting captured and outsmarted must always be a fluke. Maybe the Aldmeri Dominion nearly destroying the Empire was a fluke too.

He probably didn't expect Tullius to actually know what he was doing, and ambushes are a pain to deal with anyways because you don't see them coming. Thats why its an ambush. They're also really easy to do, and even if you had crap guys you could still win a battle (for example, Spain's commonfolk fighting France's unstoppable military during the Peninsular War).

He didn't expect a Military General to know what he was doing? Or didn't expect Tullius to know what Ulfric was doing?

Ambushes aren't easy to do when the Thalmor are alerting the Stormcloaks to it, and they slip away. Setting up an ambush requires knowledge of enemy movements, and when you're capturing the enemy leader? Is that really easy to do?

Tullius didn't have just rabble with arms, he had soldiers. In Ulfric's position, I'd surrender too to try to save their lives. Turns out, the Empire doesn't know mercy well enough to care.

Tullius is using locals, Rikke calls them Militia. So when Tullius uses militia they're soldiers, but when Ulfric uses them it is a rabble. Are you telling me Ulfric is that plops? He'd have knowledge of legionary tactics, fighting style and ability. His has ex Legionaries also, shouldn't he have the upper hand?

So when he created the Stormcloaks years ago. Did they all just sit around wanking instead of training? Yeah, I can see them smashing the Aldmeri Dominion when they decide to invade.

They knew they were going to die. The punishment for treason is death.

Chalk that up for a lesson learned for Ulfric. After all, even Caesar lost a battle but was still praised as a genius strategist. Ulfric has a slip up and he's banned for life?

Doesn't that seem a bit biased?

Of course it is biased. The Empire surrenders for the first time in two Eras. It is weak, cowardly and should be destroyed. Ulfric Stormcloak surrenders without barely a fight to General Tullius, god damn hero trying to save lives. (Even though they would be killed, either in Skyrim or Cyrodiil)

Being captured by the enemy was pretty common back in the day, but if you're including one of those captures to Markarth, then you shouldn't and here's why. He was arrested for Talos worship, not during a battle. If it were a battle, then I could see your stance but it wasn't. Infact, the battle beforehand when he captured Markarth is a pretty interesting achievement seeing as sieges are a lot harder to pull off than battles on the field.

I don't like Ulfric either, but your total disdain for the guy is making you overlook EVERYTHING. Come on, Mage, you're better than this.

Alright, he was captured twice. By his enemies.

Yes it was a good achievement, Nordic militia filled with ex legion soldiers vs Reachmen with no military training, zero tactics and being sent flying by the Thu'um. Yeah, I can see it was a close match indeed.

So Galmar's Brother is the Jarl of Windhelm now? Or is it the people who make the laws and policies, not the Jarls? That's such a shame, seeing the Jarls not have any control over their cities.

No. But Ulfric and his soldiers don't seem to care about him threatening them in the streets. They must not have any control, because apparently Nords can't be forced to do things according to another Stormcloak supporter in this thread.

What makes you think that Ulfric and company suspects the Dunmer of being Spies? What makes you think he would issue the order for arresting some Dunmer in the night just to torture them to see what they fess up? One of them has Legion Armor in their building, so maybe there is a reason to think so but Ulfric hasn't issued any arrests that we're aware about yet.

It is an ex-Stormcloak who calls them spies. Doesn't need to be Ulfric personally, it is within his city and those men believe themselves Stormcloaks. He doesn't care what happens to the Dunmer, his disdain for them is clear.

Stormcloaks are not so bright, wearing Imperial armor makes them call you a spy. Guess the EETC Mercenaries are our secret agents.

No, rather it was Galmar's brother who has no pull with the Jarl of Windhelm. Don't grasp for straws.

Forgive me, I didn't mean to grasp. How mistaken I was to believe that the brother of Ulfric's best friend, housecarl and brother in arms... Would have any sort of pull with Jarl Ulfric.

That's most of what I said, good to see you're listening. But if Titus Mede dies (of course by assassination), his son would take the throne. Considering how long it has been since an Emperor has been assassination, I wonder when it will happen again. Perhaps a Thalmor agent, this time, right before the next war.

The next war would most likely start after Mede's death.

If Ulfric dies, whatever to the rest of the world, another Warlord down. If Tullius dies, whatever to the rest of the world, another soldier fell. If the Emperor dies as he did... then that's not just a murder, that's a sign. He died, on a boat, full of his precious PO guys. The Emperor is not safe and may never be safe for quite some time.

And the heir of Tiber Septim died, praying in the temple. Surrounded by Blades, surrounded by an entire city of soldiers. Being Emperor is rarely safe.

Perhaps The Jarl is up in age, so its possible he met him after the great war and before Markarth and as a child. Ulfric is a Jarl's son, afterall. Considering both are port cities, I doubt they'd ignore each other for long. There is a whole world of possibilities, so whose to say?

How is Falkreath a port city? Do you require a map? Stormcloak logic at it's finest.

Alright. How many Emperors can you name? How many Jarls of Falkreath?

How many Grand Marshall's of the Imperial Legion can you name? How many Jarls of Solitude can you directly name? How many High Kings in the Third and Fourth Era could you name?

Just because we're not informed, doesn't mean they're peasants unworthy of any thought.

Skyrim may be the second most important (with Hammerfell being dead last), but the first takes priorities. A lot of folks don't like playing second fiddle, its about time the Nords of Skyrim got tired of it too.

Stormcloaks =/= Nords of Skyrim. There are Nords standing against Ulfric Stormcloak.

Oh, so you're saying that some of the holds (excluding the holds bordering Windhelm) may not support Elisif? Sounds like an easy win for Ulfric, can't have that. Better move in and remind the other Jarls who think a third party is an option that the Empire is here and always watching.

Not at all. It has nothing to do with supporting Elisif, she isn't promised to be High Queen. Ulfric isn't allowing the Moot to meet until he controls all of Skyrim, so yeah easy win for Ulfric.

So Ulfric refusing to allow the Moot to meet, is that showing his true political weakness? He can't take a chance? He can't risk to lose becoming High King?

If the Empire didn't join in Balgruuf may or may not have fought against Ulfric. He would have been a third party. Whose to say how that would of gone.

His Court are opposed to the Stormcloaks. His citizens also believe he'll go Imperial.

"I don't think he likes either Ulfric or Elisif much. Who can blame him? But I've no doubt he'll prove loyal to the Empire in the end. He's no traitor." - Alvor

"He's been trying to stay out of the war, but it can't last. He's going to have to pick a side. I'm afraid he's going to make the wrong choice." - Gerdur

Right, wouldn't want another Titus Mede to step up, would we?

Learn why Titus Mede stepped up. Then comment. Torygg isn't anything like Emperor Thules the Gibbering.

So, this isn't a fight for Skyrim, this is a play to show the Empire is still here? The Imperials aren't trying to defend Skyrim, they're trying to defend their power. What a weak claim to the moral highground.

No. I won't even bother with this one.

This war with the Aldmeri, its like the Dragons in Game of Thrones. Always promised it'll come but it sure is taking its time. If the Aldmeri REALLY wanted a war, why not just invade during the climax of the Skyrim Civil War? Or after the Emperor has been assassinated? They're not looking for a war, they already won and the Empire has accepted all their laws.

The Aldmeri are not looking for war? Of all the things posted in this thread, that ranks up next to that Stormcloak supporter who was here ages ago and said the Imperials were hiding lore.

Show me where the Aldmeri aren't looking for a war?

"It is more like the calm between storms. And the next storm, I think, will be far deadlier than the last." - Ondolemar

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. - Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak

"There's no worse enemy to humankind in Tamriel. The Empire barely survived the last war. The Thalmor don't intend to lose the next one." - Delphine

There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed. - The Great War (Book)

What would the Thalmor possibly want? Land? Even MORE power? No, I think they're good. Any second war sounds like a War of Imperial Aggression, which would seem to be an ongoing theme since their intervention in Skyrim.

The Thalmor want to create a new Merethic Era. Where elves had ruled Tamriel.

Sworn enemies of the Empire and everything it stands for.

The Thalmor are good, they're not going to do anything. They're happy and fine. Heard it from Ozan himself, which destroys every single Stormcloak support in this thread. Thalmor are peaceful and will only attack from Imperial Aggression.

... Lol. Yeah, Ulfric kills High King Torygg declares war against the Western Holds, seeks to kick out the Empire. Legion steps in to end the rebellion, obvious Imperial aggression.

You even said yourself, talking of the Nords in the Legion whose families live on their wages.

What of it? There isn't a welfare system in Tamriel. Some people become soldiers to earn money for their family.

If the Empire were truly so grand, the Nords wouldn't have to leave their families in poverty.

What are you even on about? You're talking out of your ass now. If the Stormcloaks are so good, why is their poverty under their rule too? Should they be fl*ffing Communists, because everyone should be equal earning the same, living the same?

If the Nords are so warlike, then why is it that it is only Cyrodiil who requires fighting?

Name me the number of wars fought by Cyrodiil, then name me the number fought by Skyrim and the Nords.

Without the Empire, Thalmor wouldn't be in Skyrim. Skyrim shares no borders with the Aldmeri, only Cyrodiil does.
The Nords have no reason to be afraid, yet the Empire claims they do. Now that the Nords fight, so too do the Imperials if only to back their lies.

"What I fear, is that the Thalmor will see our victory here and turn greater attention to our shores." - Ulfric Stormcloak

Guess Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are no better than them lying Imperials.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Let them try to free him on a boat headed to Cyrodiil. Or take him to Solitude for Elisif to execute. There are a lot better places than Helgen.

Not when the Thalmor are trying to free him. Boat headed for Cyrodiil? Escorting Ulfric across the entire province of Skyrim to a boat in Solitude would be stupid. Took them two days just to reach Helgen, how long would it take to reach Solitude? Between the Stormcloaks and Thalmor trying to free him, doubt they'd make it far.

There is some dialogue for Elenwen in Helgen, which isn't used, but gives you an idea of what they would be talking about.

"General Tullius, stop! By the authority of the Thalmor, I’m taking custody of these prisoners."

"Your Emperor will hear of this. By the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, I operate with full Imperial authority!"

"You’re making a terrible mistake!"

 

[DrunkenMage]

Why would you execute prisoners? Because they're treasonous? To make a point? So they don't fight again? The Stormcloaks thought they were going to be taken to the Imperial City to be part of a parade for Tullius of sorts, but no.

Because the Thalmor wanted them, badly enough to have the highest ranking Thalmor in Skyrim come personally. What better way to give the Thalmor the middle finger and end their plans.

 

[Raijin]

Also, it is off-topic, but is anyone else getting annoyed by the way the quotes are handled now (as in, the some posts are quoted but you do not see anything)?

Yes I've notice that myself. Ever since the upgrade the quoting system seems to be broken.

 

[Raijin]

Weeeeeeell, the Empire didn't kill ALL the rebels. Rather they made them prisoners. Infact, you can even find Imperials escorting prisoners. In the Stormcloak quests, you liberate a few PoWs (as with Imperials, but we're talking Stormcloak right now). I think it's relatively brutal that Tullius wanted to execute the prisoners, too, if not also somewhat unusual. Why would you execute prisoners? Because they're treasonous? To make a point? So they don't fight again? The Stormcloaks thought they were going to be taken to the Imperial City to be part of a parade for Tullius of sorts, but no. Tullius just wants them all dead, doesn't even say "Kill Ulfric fiiiiirst *evil cackle*" just lets the captain pick 'em. There goes this great strategy Tullius set up, something that won't work twice on the same enemy. Kudos to him.now what to do with it after.

I always wondered about that. If the Empire/Tullius truly wanted to kill Ulfric why didn't Tullius executed him first? You know to taunt his next Stormcloak prisoners about how much of a failure their leader is, and how easy it was to capture him, and such.

"Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over." - General Tullius

Judging by Tullius own words.... It sounds perfectly logical to have Ulfric be on the chopping block first, yet he wasn't. In fact it seems as if Ulfric was going to be last? Who knows what was going through Tullius mind on that day.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Weeeeeeell, the Empire didn't kill ALL the rebels. Rather they made them prisoners. Infact, you can even find Imperials escorting prisoners. In the Stormcloak quests, you liberate a few PoWs (as with Imperials, but we're talking Stormcloak right now). I think it's relatively brutal that Tullius wanted to execute the prisoners, too, if not also somewhat unusual. Why would you execute prisoners? Because they're treasonous? To make a point? So they don't fight again? The Stormcloaks thought they were going to be taken to the Imperial City to be part of a parade for Tullius of sorts, but no. Tullius just wants them all dead, doesn't even say "Kill Ulfric fiiiiirst *evil cackle*" just lets the captain pick 'em. There goes this great strategy Tullius set up, something that won't work twice on the same enemy. Kudos to him.now what to do with it after.

I always wondered about that. If the Empire/Tullius truly wanted to kill Ulfric why didn't Tullius executed him first? You know to taunt his next Stormcloak prisoners about how much of a failure their leader is, and how easy it was to capture him, and such.

"Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over." - General Tullius

Judging by Tullius own words.... It sounds perfectly logical to have Ulfric be on the chopping block first, yet he wasn't. In fact it seems as if Ulfric was going to be last? Who knows what was going through Tullius mind on that day.

If it had been me, I would have executed all of them together at the same time.

You wouldn't want Ulfric to go first, that would leave a statement. No, you want to fl*ff with him a little bit before he goes. So it's like these plp are dieing needlessly because of you.

 

[Lewsean]

Weeeeeeell, the Empire didn't kill ALL the rebels. Rather they made them prisoners. Infact, you can even find Imperials escorting prisoners. In the Stormcloak quests, you liberate a few PoWs (as with Imperials, but we're talking Stormcloak right now). I think it's relatively brutal that Tullius wanted to execute the prisoners, too, if not also somewhat unusual. Why would you execute prisoners? Because they're treasonous? To make a point? So they don't fight again? The Stormcloaks thought they were going to be taken to the Imperial City to be part of a parade for Tullius of sorts, but no. Tullius just wants them all dead, doesn't even say "Kill Ulfric fiiiiirst *evil cackle*" just lets the captain pick 'em. There goes this great strategy Tullius set up, something that won't work twice on the same enemy. Kudos to him.now what to do with it after.

I always wondered about that. If the Empire/Tullius truly wanted to kill Ulfric why didn't Tullius executed him first? You know to taunt his next Stormcloak prisoners about how much of a failure their leader is, and how easy it was to capture him, and such.

"Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over." - General Tullius

Judging by Tullius own words.... It sounds perfectly logical to have Ulfric be on the chopping block first, yet he wasn't. In fact it seems as if Ulfric was going to be last? Who knows what was going through Tullius mind on that day.

If it had been me, I would have executed all of them together at the same time.

You wouldn't want Ulfric to go first, that would leave a statement. No, you want to fl*ff with him a little bit before he goes. So it's like these plp are dieing needlessly because of you.

You think any of the Stormcloaks are thinking that during Helgen? They're fighting the Empire because they loathe them, if anything taking them off to a secret location and discreetly executing Ulfric and a few of his men instead of giving them a public trial or even a public execution will just cause more people to rebel. For a Legion General I thought that move was really, really amateur.

 

[Lewsean]

Did Rome get hit with a Great War that nearly wiped them off the face of the earth, gather their forces to fight another Empire that is equal to their ability and could match their forces. So while fighting this other Empire, they could so easily deal with an uprising at the same time that threatens to tear a third of the Empire away and cuts off the only other third? Not to mention Dragons wiping out entire Legion garrisons.

Rome wasn't fighting a force that could shoot lightning bolts out of their fl*ffing hands.

You call the Stormcloaks nothing but a militia of shopkeepers and farmers. Keep one description and stick with it okay? If it's nothing but a rebellion that only needs locally recruited auxillaries to deal with, then it doesn't effect the Empire AT ALL and should have no bearing on your plans with the Thalmor. Also, check out the "Crisis of the Third Century". The Roman Empire managed another two centurys after such an incident

Again, I didn't say racism is acceptable. You were saying it is fine for the Imperials to put all Nords into being lawless barbarians. Which I disagreed, and also pointing out those Redguards you seem to believe you can ally with feel the same.

You Stormcloaks cry on about Tullius not respecting Nords, but then go on to say the Dunmer and Argonians have to earn their respect. Why shouldn't the Nords earn Tullius' respect also?

The Nords have done more than any other race to 'earn' the respect of the Empire. Just look a few quotes down, and to be honest I'd expect you to already know of the Nords accomplishments in the Great War.. Or do you just cherry pick your knowledge? And it doesn't matter if you disagree with it or not, the Empire uses Ulfric's 'racism' as propoganda, when they are just as guilty of it themselves. Let's all feel sorry for the poor Dunmer whilst at the same time treating the Nords like idiotic tribesmen.

Torygg was a Jarl, and he was killed. The Empire stepped in after his death. The other Jarls aren't being killed yet, but that also stems from a gameplay with how the Civil War was supposed to be. The enemy being able to take your cities, if you were careless you would have six different rulers of a single city dying within the same year.

A Jarl isn't JARLS is it? Your quote is wrong. One political figure was killed, not two or more.

Ulfric fueled their passions, but of course there were those who called out for war. Their Jarl had died and the heir was arrested, finally set free. His grandfather could have done the exact same thing, and have a rebellion. The want to push out the Empire isn't new, there were those who wanted to do it prior to the Great War even.

But Nords always call out for war, it is when they stop, you start to worry.

The fact that they are such a warlike people is why you need them so badly. If not for the ''lawless barbarians' of the Legion and their battle hardened courage and experience, you'd have no Imperial City left.

The second army, largely of Nord legions under General Jonna, took up position near Cheydinhal...

On the 30th of Rain's Hand, the bloody Battle of the Red Ring began as General Decianus swept down on the city from the west, while General Jonna's legionnaires drove south along the Red Ring Road. In a two-day assault, Jonna's army crossed the Niben and advanced west, attempting to link up with Decianus's legions and thus surround the Imperial City. Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded....

An attempt by the Aldmeri to break out of the city to the south was blocked by the unbreakable shieldwall of General Jonna's battered legions.

In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed.

The utter disdain the Empire shows towards Nords and their culture even just after the Great War is disgusting. If my people litteraly saved the asses of my rulers and were still looked down upon as lawless idiotic barbarians I'd be mad too.

Aye, but does it mean they're anything like the Roman Empire. Though if we're getting into it, the Empire got their "Roman" style from the Akaviri. So the Akaviri are the real 100% Romans.

Could also argue Arena Argonians were Roman.

Romans adopted everything from foreigners. The formation fighting was just an adaptation of the failed Phalanx.

Race of people? The Empire is made up of all races, and the Legion is filled with all different races.

The Empire's 'main' race are the Imperials, who are obviously designed from the Romans. There names are Latin ffs. How can you be so ignorant to the obvious?

Which came from the Akaviri reforms. Though in Morrowind the Legion was a lot like Knights, but them having Roman style doesn't mean Rome's history has anything to do with TES.

And the Roman mail armor was designed after fighting in Gaul. Esay to compare the similarities isn't it?

I never saw it unti now, obviously the Stormcloaks will win because Ulfric is really Arminius and the Stormcloak rebellion is the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest. Tullius is like Publius Quinctilius Varus and will lose his legions. Because there are minor similarities we can find within cultures of our world and events. So they must be 100% if they're somewhat similar.

The Akaviri must really be Japanese in culture and tradition, because they have a Katana and therefor are 100% based off the Japanese Samurai.

Khajiit culture must be Romani, cause in Skyrim they remind us of gypsies.

Once again, taking things to the extreme to make your point more valid. Typical strawman. I was pointing out YOU CAN compare the Empire to the Romans, Nords to Vikings, Redguards to a more Arabic culture etc etc, as that is OBVIOUSLY what Bethesda based each culture from. Nords who die in battle go to a final resting place of no pain, unlimited drinking, feasting and fighting that basically mirrors valhalla is in no way similar to the Norseman now is it? lol..

That is what happens if you debate politics, don't take it too personal. Raijin and I have good insults for each other when debating the Civil War, but he's probably my favorite member on these forums.

Not really, your arguments become worse when you relate my inteligence to my allegiance of an in-game faction.

 

[LegateFasendil]

I always wondered about that. If the Empire/Tullius truly wanted to kill Ulfric why didn't Tullius executed him first? You know to taunt his next Stormcloak prisoners about how much of a failure their leader is, and how easy it was to capture him, and such.

"Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over." - General Tullius

Judging by Tullius own words.... It sounds perfectly logical to have Ulfric be on the chopping block first, yet he wasn't. In fact it seems as if Ulfric was going to be last? Who knows what was going through Tullius mind on that day.

If it had been me, I would have executed all of them together at the same time.

You wouldn't want Ulfric to go first, that would leave a statement. No, you want to fl*ff with him a little bit before he goes. So it's like these plp are dieing needlessly because of you.

You think any of the Stormcloaks are thinking that during Helgen? They're fighting the Empire because they loathe them, if anything taking them off to a secret location and discreetly executing Ulfric and a few of his men instead of giving them a public trial or even a public execution will just cause more people to rebel. For a Legion General I thought that move was really, really amateur.

Well, Skyrim is on martial lockdown. Gen Tully is the Military Gov, so the choice is his.

However, once again... hehehe... I wouldn't have stopped. Just wipe them all out ~ anyone wearing a Sturmclock uniform including his majesty. Put 1 in the chest and 2 in the skull and take a lap. they can pay they respects at the Imp City. Hehehe Maybe that would end it, maybe not but at least he'd be gone.

Now, anyone not in Stormcloak uniform I would stop and ask 50 questions.

However, you are 100% Correct the rebellion(s) would most def not end with him. The chances are someone else would rise up to take his place. Gen Tully prob wanted a public exec for Ulfric so everyone knew he was actually dead.

Remember, a major weakness in Ulfric's cause is it's charismatic because he wants to be High King. So anything happens to him, the cause is ruined.

Somehow I wonder though. Ulfric is just the figure head. Galmar is the one constantly pushing for this... anyone ever wonder if Galmar has a card he hasn't played yet?

 

[Lewsean]

If it had been me, I would have executed all of them together at the same time.

You wouldn't want Ulfric to go first, that would leave a statement. No, you want to fl*ff with him a little bit before he goes. So it's like these plp are dieing needlessly because of you.

You think any of the Stormcloaks are thinking that during Helgen? They're fighting the Empire because they loathe them, if anything taking them off to a secret location and discreetly executing Ulfric and a few of his men instead of giving them a public trial or even a public execution will just cause more people to rebel. For a Legion General I thought that move was really, really amateur.

Well, Skyrim is on martial lockdown. Gen Tully is the Military Gov, so the choice is his.

However, once again... hehehe... I wouldn't have stopped. Just wipe them all out ~ anyone wearing a Sturmclock uniform including his majesty. Put 2 in the skull and take a lap. they can pay they respects at the Imp City. Hehehe Maybe that would end it, maybe not but at least he'd be gone.

Now, anyone not in Stormcloak uniform I would stop and ask 50 questions.

However, you are 100% Correct the rebellion(s) would most def not end with him. The chances are someone else would rise up to take his place. Gen Tully prob wanted a public exec for Ulfric so everyone knew he was actually dead.

Remember, a major weakness in Ulfric's cause is it's charismatic because he wants to be High King. So anything happens to him, the cause is ruined.

No no no, his end-game is High King, but his troops fight because they want too, and they believe he should be High King because what he fights for (Independance, freedom etc) is a common cause. If his troops and even people who are on the fence found out that he was taken to some lowly Imperial Fort and beheaded it would just tip the rebellion even further. I think even Jarl Balgruuf would take the fight to the Empire if he found out they were executing Nords who weren't even part of the rebellion (The PC and Lokir, for example)

 

[LegateFasendil]

You think any of the Stormcloaks are thinking that during Helgen? They're fighting the Empire because they loathe them, if anything taking them off to a secret location and discreetly executing Ulfric and a few of his men instead of giving them a public trial or even a public execution will just cause more people to rebel. For a Legion General I thought that move was really, really amateur.

Well, Skyrim is on martial lockdown. Gen Tully is the Military Gov, so the choice is his.

However, once again... hehehe... I wouldn't have stopped. Just wipe them all out ~ anyone wearing a Sturmclock uniform including his majesty. Put 2 in the skull and take a lap. they can pay they respects at the Imp City. Hehehe Maybe that would end it, maybe not but at least he'd be gone.

Now, anyone not in Stormcloak uniform I would stop and ask 50 questions.

However, you are 100% Correct the rebellion(s) would most def not end with him. The chances are someone else would rise up to take his place. Gen Tully prob wanted a public exec for Ulfric so everyone knew he was actually dead.

Remember, a major weakness in Ulfric's cause is it's charismatic because he wants to be High King. So anything happens to him, the cause is ruined.

No no no, his end-game is High King, but his troops fight because they want too, and they believe he should be High King because what he fights for (Independance, freedom etc) is a common cause. If his troops and even people who are on the fence found out that he was taken to some lowly Imperial Fort and beheaded it would just tip the rebellion even further. I think even Jarl Balgruuf would take the fight to the Empire if he found out they were executing Nords who weren't even part of the rebellion (The PC and Lokir, for example)

Exactly. So it's a kick in the stomach because he's dead and crushes they morale. It's one objective they can't accomplish now.

Furthermore, the Empire has the right to summary executions because of Ulfric. Ulfric brought down the civilian Gov, so why does he deserve anything but what he 'got'.

The Imperial loyalists just want the war over - that's it.

Besides, to them he's nothing except a murderer and traitor. And what do we do with those kinds of people? Not in the US I mean, what normal justice systems would do with them.

 

[Lewsean]

Well, Skyrim is on martial lockdown. Gen Tully is the Military Gov, so the choice is his.

However, once again... hehehe... I wouldn't have stopped. Just wipe them all out ~ anyone wearing a Sturmclock uniform including his majesty. Put 2 in the skull and take a lap. they can pay they respects at the Imp City. Hehehe Maybe that would end it, maybe not but at least he'd be gone.

Now, anyone not in Stormcloak uniform I would stop and ask 50 questions.

However, you are 100% Correct the rebellion(s) would most def not end with him. The chances are someone else would rise up to take his place. Gen Tully prob wanted a public exec for Ulfric so everyone knew he was actually dead.

Remember, a major weakness in Ulfric's cause is it's charismatic because he wants to be High King. So anything happens to him, the cause is ruined.

No no no, his end-game is High King, but his troops fight because they want too, and they believe he should be High King because what he fights for (Independance, freedom etc) is a common cause. If his troops and even people who are on the fence found out that he was taken to some lowly Imperial Fort and beheaded it would just tip the rebellion even further. I think even Jarl Balgruuf would take the fight to the Empire if he found out they were executing Nords who weren't even part of the rebellion (The PC and Lokir, for example)

Exactly. So it's a kick in the stomach because he's dead and crushes they morale. It's one objective they can't accomplish now.

Furthermore, the Empire has the right to summary executions because of Ulfric. Ulfric brought down the civilian Gov, so why does he deserve anything but what he 'got'.

The Imperial loyalists just want the war over - that's it.

Because that Imperial 'law' only came into effect AFTER what happened, nobody had a problem with it until the Empire sent Tullius. If it was such an illegal act Ulfric wouldn't even have had the chance to pull out his sword before he was arrested/attacked by the Solitude soldiers & more importantly, the countless guards the KING would've had lol. The Empire only goes on about this law because there puppet ruler has been killed. If it was a dispute between let's say Igmund(Totally loyal to the Empire) and Torygg on personal terms rather than political terms, I can almost guarantee the Empire would've had no problem with it as it doesn't effect their hold on Skyrim. Jarl killing Jarl is legal in Skyrim and that is what ultimately should matter most, forcing foreign policies on a nation should not happen and is pretty muc what this Civil War is all about, Imperialism.

 

[LegateFasendil]

No no no, his end-game is High King, but his troops fight because they want too, and they believe he should be High King because what he fights for (Independance, freedom etc) is a common cause. If his troops and even people who are on the fence found out that he was taken to some lowly Imperial Fort and beheaded it would just tip the rebellion even further. I think even Jarl Balgruuf would take the fight to the Empire if he found out they were executing Nords who weren't even part of the rebellion (The PC and Lokir, for example)

Exactly. So it's a kick in the stomach because he's dead and crushes they morale. It's one objective they can't accomplish now.

Furthermore, the Empire has the right to summary executions because of Ulfric. Ulfric brought down the civilian Gov, so why does he deserve anything but what he 'got'.

The Imperial loyalists just want the war over - that's it.

Because that Imperial 'law' only came into effect AFTER what happened, nobody had a problem with it until the Empire sent Tullius. If it was such an illegal act Ulfric wouldn't even have had the chance to pull out his sword before he was arrested/attacked by the Solitude soldiers & more importantly, the countless guards the KING would've had lol. The Empire only goes on about this law because there puppet ruler has been killed. If it was a dispute between let's say Igmund(Totally loyal to the Empire) and Torygg on personal terms rather than political terms, I can almost guarantee the Empire would've had no problem with it as it doesn't effect their hold on Skyrim. Jarl killing Jarl is legal in Skyrim and that is what ultimately should matter most, forcing foreign policies on a nation should not happen and is pretty muc what this Civil War is all about.

AFTER? There is no 'AFTER' fella - Skyrim is Imperial Providence and Empire approved the Moot's decision.

The High King made a mistake by allowing the duel, Ulfric deceived him. But I'm shor u already know this well.

Because the Stormcloak Jarls were at that Moot and had just as much say in this matter as the pro-Empire Jarls.

Besides this, the Moot decided he's the High King - a single Jarl has no say in it. That's it. And that's by Nord tradition.

 

[Raijin]

No no no, his end-game is High King, but his troops fight because they want too, and they believe he should be High King because what he fights for (Independance, freedom etc) is a common cause. If his troops and even people who are on the fence found out that he was taken to some lowly Imperial Fort and beheaded it would just tip the rebellion even further. I think even Jarl Balgruuf would take the fight to the Empire if he found out they were executing Nords who weren't even part of the rebellion (The PC and Lokir, for example)

I seriously doubt that Balgruuf would take the fight to the Empire if he found out that the Imperials were executing nords who weren't even part of the rebellion.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d50e5

According to his dialogue he could care less what the Empire is doing for as long as they keep sending him crates full of gold.

 

[LegateFasendil]

No no no, his end-game is High King, but his troops fight because they want too, and they believe he should be High King because what he fights for (Independance, freedom etc) is a common cause. If his troops and even people who are on the fence found out that he was taken to some lowly Imperial Fort and beheaded it would just tip the rebellion even further. I think even Jarl Balgruuf would take the fight to the Empire if he found out they were executing Nords who weren't even part of the rebellion (The PC and Lokir, for example)

I seriously doubt that Balgruuf would take the fight to the Empire if he found out that the Imperials were executing nords who weren't even part of the rebellion.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d50e5

According to his dialogue he could care less what the Empire is doing for as long as they keep sending him crates full of gold.

Red Herring.

Whiterun under Jarl B is a city-state. His people come first. You forgot to mention how the good Jarl says he's running out of money to pay the guards. Did that help?

 

[Lewsean]

Exactly. So it's a kick in the stomach because he's dead and crushes they morale. It's one objective they can't accomplish now.

Furthermore, the Empire has the right to summary executions because of Ulfric. Ulfric brought down the civilian Gov, so why does he deserve anything but what he 'got'.

The Imperial loyalists just want the war over - that's it.

Because that Imperial 'law' only came into effect AFTER what happened, nobody had a problem with it until the Empire sent Tullius. If it was such an illegal act Ulfric wouldn't even have had the chance to pull out his sword before he was arrested/attacked by the Solitude soldiers & more importantly, the countless guards the KING would've had lol. The Empire only goes on about this law because there puppet ruler has been killed. If it was a dispute between let's say Igmund(Totally loyal to the Empire) and Torygg on personal terms rather than political terms, I can almost guarantee the Empire would've had no problem with it as it doesn't effect their hold on Skyrim. Jarl killing Jarl is legal in Skyrim and that is what ultimately should matter most, forcing foreign policies on a nation should not happen and is pretty muc what this Civil War is all about.

AFTER? There is no 'AFTER' fella - Skyrim is Imperial Providence and Empire approved the Moot's decision.

The High King made a mistake by allowing the duel, Ulfric deceived him. But I'm shor u already know this well.

Because the Stormcloak Jarls were at that Moot and had just as much say in this matter as the pro-Empire Jarls.

Besides this, the Moot decided he's the High King - a single Jarl has no say in it. That's it.

He didn't make a mistake, he knew the moment the challenge was made he lost his claim to the throne, either fight and die or refuse and have his honor stained and a new Moot called.

"I hope Ulfric will come to his senses. But I fear he's in too far to stop now. Likely only Ulfric's death, or the overthrow of the Jarls supporting him will end this. Either way, much blood will be spilt." - Rikke

The Empire has no intention of allowing any pro-Ulfric Jarls to live or take part in the Moot. Further proving my point if you believe Torygg was deceived lol, not much of a King if he doesn't know his own laws.. Also the Moot to name Torygg King was just a ceremony, as he was the direct heir to Istlod, meaning no Moot needed to happen(A Moot is only needed if there is no heir). There was also no Stormcloak Jarls as the rebellion wasn't active at that time.