Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
DrunkeMage said:
Tell me when was the last time Skyrim was able to govern itself, united and independent? It isn't being racist, the Nords have a conflicting nature. They were split in half at the fall of the Second Empire, most likely stayed split for 465 years until Tiber united Tamriel under the Third Empire.

The Stormcloaks require Ulfric, none of the other Jarls would be suited for the crown on their side. It is very likely Tullius and Ulfric will die, and it is very doubtful the Moot will be able to name a successor of this new independent Skyrim. What happens when the Moot is unable to name a new King? Right now a Civil War for the throne, same thing that happened in the Second Era the province split in half, same thing that happened in the First Era with the fifty year long War of Succession. Probably also the same damn thing that was happening over in Atmora with a Civil War during the Merethic Era.

Skyrim has every right being independent, but splitting away on the brink of a second war between the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion? Over the White-Gold Concordat that was poorly enforced and isn't going to remain for much longer? Stormcloaks offer a short term solution, isolation of their province and open the door to greater Thalmor espionage.

If this is the case, then Spain had no right to govern themselves prior to the Reconquista. For almost 800 years, Spain was not a unified nation with most of Iberia being taken by Muslim invaders. The reason why they couldn't kick them out sooner was because they were always waging wars amongst each other, but that's Feudal Europe for you when your vassals fight among themselves.

But, at 1942 when Iberia was finally in Christian hands, Spain and Portugal took it upon themselves to make fluffING EMPIRES THAT AFFECT OUR WORLD TODAY!!! It was great.

Now, you said there was a split in Skyrim... Right down the middle probably. Well, that isn't so bad. Sure, Skyrim has a history of fighting among themselves... But this is different. Assume Ulfric and Tullius both die. The Jarls supporting Elisef (forgot how to spell her name) still support her. Anyone rising up in Ulfric's place would have to have a lot of his ideas just to keep the Jarls who had supported him to maintain the war, a war that is far easier without a competent strategist leading the enemy. If not Elisef will be made High Queen, probably unanimously.

But, being feudal, that doesn't mean half the Jarls won't petition her to break off from the Empire (something her husband would have done if Ulfric asked). So now, we deal with a lot of what ifs (a what if scenario I enjoy because Tullius isn't here to hold her hand). Feudalism is a curse, really. ;)

DrunkeMage said:
Indeed I do, what happened to being a Khajiit?

People kept suggesting I spoke like a giant pussy. ;)
 

Lewsean

Member
Tell me when was the last time Skyrim was able to govern itself, united and independent? It isn't being racist, the Nords have a conflicting nature. They were split in half at the fall of the Second Empire, most likely stayed split for 465 years until Tiber united Tamriel under the Third Empire.

The Stormcloaks require Ulfric, none of the other Jarls would be suited for the crown on their side. It is very likely Tullius and Ulfric will die, and it is very doubtful the Moot will be able to name a successor of this new independent Skyrim. What happens when the Moot is unable to name a new King? Right now a Civil War for the throne, same thing that happened in the Second Era the province split in half, same thing that happened in the First Era with the fifty year long War of Succession. Probably also the same damn thing that was happening over in Atmora with a Civil War during the Merethic Era.

Skyrim has every right being independent, but splitting away on the brink of a second war between the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion? Over the White-Gold Concordat that was poorly enforced and isn't going to remain for much longer? Stormcloaks offer a short term solution, isolation of their province and open the door to greater Thalmor espionage.
It doesn't matter, that's what people the want. The Empire was happy to let Morrowind/Hammerfell do as they please, but like I said before you've come to the realisation it's a mistake and you need provinces so you'd rather have a Civil War then let Skyrim rule them selves. Skyrim is already isolated.. You said it your self, no legions occupy Skyrim, just "poor auxillaries" so what benefits do you offer apart from xenephobic views that all Nords are lawless barbarians?


Skyrim was different. The Civilian Gov was under duress. Hammerfell and Morrowind deciding to leave was fine because their legit Gov made that choice. Skyrim was diff because the Gov was brought down by force.

It would have been irresponsible for the Empire to just pull out, esp with half the Gov still in favor of the Empire. I'm sure if the Thalmor weren't a threat Skyrim would have it's Legions back. Every Imperial Prov has Legions. This does not mean they can't be re-assigned in case of an emergency.

Not to come off as too... curt, but have Raijin and yourself actually listened to what Gen Tullius has been saying?

Did you guys come here to give speeches or actually have a discussion?
It's different because you won't leave... Hammerfell had it easy because you left them, is that so hard to grasp? Hammerfell would be in the EXACT same situation if the Empire was still occupying it. Kind of hard for Hammerfell to have a civil war with the Empire when the Empire left. I can't believe I'm having to explain such simple things.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
It doesn't matter, that's what people the want. The Empire was happy to let Morrowind/Hammerfell do as they please, but like I said before you've come to the realisation it's a mistake and you need provinces so you'd rather have a Civil War then let Skyrim rule them selves. Skyrim is already isolated.. You said it your self, no legions occupy Skyrim, just "poor auxillaries" so what benefits do you offer apart from xenephobic views that all Nords are lawless barbarians?


Skyrim was different. The Civilian Gov was under duress. Hammerfell and Morrowind deciding to leave was fine because their legit Gov made that choice. Skyrim was diff because the Gov was brought down by force.

It would have been irresponsible for the Empire to just pull out, esp with half the Gov still in favor of the Empire. I'm sure if the Thalmor weren't a threat Skyrim would have it's Legions back. Every Imperial Prov has Legions. This does not mean they can't be re-assigned in case of an emergency.

Not to come off as too... curt, but have Raijin and yourself actually listened to what Gen Tullius has been saying?

Did you guys come here to give speeches or actually have a discussion?
It's different because you won't leave... Hammerfell had it easy because you left them, is that so hard to grasp? Hammerfell would be in the EXACT same situation if the Empire was still occupying it. Kind of hard for Hammerfell to have a civil war with the Empire when the Empire left. I can't believe I'm having to explain such simple things.


Neither Raijin or yourself have have really explained anything. Most of it is just conjecture or talking up Ulfric. Raijin can't even explain Hammerfell's stance without posting a video that someone else made.

Anytime you are asked a question, it's always... 'play the game' 'oh it's so simple' or 'Gen Tully is a warmonger'.

If it's so simple why won't you just answer the damn question?
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
It doesn't matter, that's what people the want. The Empire was happy to let Morrowind/Hammerfell do as they please, but like I said before you've come to the realisation it's a mistake and you need provinces so you'd rather have a Civil War then let Skyrim rule them selves. Skyrim is already isolated.. You said it your self, no legions occupy Skyrim, just "poor auxillaries" so what benefits do you offer apart from xenephobic views that all Nords are lawless barbarians?


Skyrim was different. The Civilian Gov was under duress. Hammerfell and Morrowind deciding to leave was fine because their legit Gov made that choice. Skyrim was diff because the Gov was brought down by force.

It would have been irresponsible for the Empire to just pull out, esp with half the Gov still in favor of the Empire. I'm sure if the Thalmor weren't a threat Skyrim would have it's Legions back. Every Imperial Prov has Legions. This does not mean they can't be re-assigned in case of an emergency.

Not to come off as too... curt, but have Raijin and yourself actually listened to what Gen Tullius has been saying?

Did you guys come here to give speeches or actually have a discussion?
It's different because you won't leave... Hammerfell had it easy because you left them, is that so hard to grasp? Hammerfell would be in the EXACT same situation if the Empire was still occupying it. Kind of hard for Hammerfell to have a civil war with the Empire when the Empire left. I can't believe I'm having to explain such simple things.


You think Hammerfell had it easy because the Empire left? You're totally neglecting the fact that Hammerfell wanted to leave... there was no Civil War, no foul play. Skyrim is not the same difference by any means whatsoever, in this respect.

The Empire won't leave because you guys started killing people, people who are still loyal to the Empire. You brought down the civilian Gov.
 
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J

Jeremius

Guest
It doesn't matter, that's what people the want. The Empire was happy to let Morrowind/Hammerfell do as they please, but like I said before you've come to the realisation it's a mistake and you need provinces so you'd rather have a Civil War then let Skyrim rule them selves. Skyrim is already isolated.. You said it your self, no legions occupy Skyrim, just "poor auxillaries" so what benefits do you offer apart from xenephobic views that all Nords are lawless barbarians?


Skyrim was different. The Civilian Gov was under duress. Hammerfell and Morrowind deciding to leave was fine because their legit Gov made that choice. Skyrim was diff because the Gov was brought down by force.

It would have been irresponsible for the Empire to just pull out, esp with half the Gov still in favor of the Empire. I'm sure if the Thalmor weren't a threat Skyrim would have it's Legions back. Every Imperial Prov has Legions. This does not mean they can't be re-assigned in case of an emergency.

Not to come off as too... curt, but have Raijin and yourself actually listened to what Gen Tullius has been saying?

Did you guys come here to give speeches or actually have a discussion?
It's different because you won't leave... Hammerfell had it easy because you left them, is that so hard to grasp? Hammerfell would be in the EXACT same situation if the Empire was still occupying it. Kind of hard for Hammerfell to have a civil war with the Empire when the Empire left. I can't believe I'm having to explain such simple things.

I have a problem with Hammerfell being used in this thread. My opinion is that Hammerfell does not exactly mean anything to Skyrim. Their situations are entirely different, and the people in the provinces are different people. I fail to see how the reduards can be an example to anyone.

Didn't Hamerfell lose in the end by gaining a worthless part of their land?
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Skyrim was different. The Civilian Gov was under duress. Hammerfell and Morrowind deciding to leave was fine because their legit Gov made that choice. Skyrim was diff because the Gov was brought down by force.

It would have been irresponsible for the Empire to just pull out, esp with half the Gov still in favor of the Empire. I'm sure if the Thalmor weren't a threat Skyrim would have it's Legions back. Every Imperial Prov has Legions. This does not mean they can't be re-assigned in case of an emergency.

Not to come off as too... curt, but have Raijin and yourself actually listened to what Gen Tullius has been saying?

Did you guys come here to give speeches or actually have a discussion?
It's different because you won't leave... Hammerfell had it easy because you left them, is that so hard to grasp? Hammerfell would be in the EXACT same situation if the Empire was still occupying it. Kind of hard for Hammerfell to have a civil war with the Empire when the Empire left. I can't believe I'm having to explain such simple things.

I have a problem with Hammerfell being used in this thread. My opinion is that Hammerfell does not exactly mean anything to Skyrim. Their situations are entirely different, and the people in the provinces are different people. I fail to see how the reduards can be an example to anyone.

Didn't Hamerfell lose in the end by gaining a worthless part of their land?


Oh ok I see. So just because you don't like the question it doesn't apply to this thread. This coming from the person who thinks the Civil War is stupid.

Well that's nice.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
I would like to reiterate my stance on this. I think that both sides of the Civil War are being stupid. I think that the Empire is not being sensitive to the desires of the Nordic people, but I also think that the Stormcloaks are being a tad short-sighted, since I believe that in the end, the next Great War will bring the same rights the Stormcloaks want, but therebels are simply impatient and want things right now. reminds of a character in the upcoming Dragon Age game (she is not about what is right, but is about what's right now).


If you think they're both stupid, then why debate here? I'm just saying.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
I would like to reiterate my stance on this. I think that both sides of the Civil War are being stupid. I think that the Empire is not being sensitive to the desires of the Nordic people, but I also think that the Stormcloaks are being a tad short-sighted, since I believe that in the end, the next Great War will bring the same rights the Stormcloaks want, but therebels are simply impatient and want things right now. reminds of a character in the upcoming Dragon Age game (she is not about what is right, but is about what's right now).


If you think they're both stupid, then why debate here? I'm just saying.

Lately I have been lurking, or posting on other threads.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
I would like to reiterate my stance on this. I think that both sides of the Civil War are being stupid. I think that the Empire is not being sensitive to the desires of the Nordic people, but I also think that the Stormcloaks are being a tad short-sighted, since I believe that in the end, the next Great War will bring the same rights the Stormcloaks want, but therebels are simply impatient and want things right now. reminds of a character in the upcoming Dragon Age game (she is not about what is right, but is about what's right now).


If you think they're both stupid, then why debate here? I'm just saying.

Lately I have been lurking, or posting on other threads.


I hear ya boss. Nothing wrong with that.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
It's different because you won't leave... Hammerfell had it easy because you left them, is that so hard to grasp? Hammerfell would be in the EXACT same situation if the Empire was still occupying it. Kind of hard for Hammerfell to have a civil war with the Empire when the Empire left. I can't believe I'm having to explain such simple things.

I have a problem with Hammerfell being used in this thread. My opinion is that Hammerfell does not exactly mean anything to Skyrim. Their situations are entirely different, and the people in the provinces are different people. I fail to see how the reduards can be an example to anyone.

Didn't Hamerfell lose in the end by gaining a worthless part of their land?


Oh ok I see. So just because you don't like the question you don't think the answer matters.

Well that's nice.

What I mean is I feel that since Hammerfell is basically the total opposite of Skyrim, it does not make a good comparison, especially since we do not know what happened post-civil War.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
I have a problem with Hammerfell being used in this thread. My opinion is that Hammerfell does not exactly mean anything to Skyrim. Their situations are entirely different, and the people in the provinces are different people. I fail to see how the reduards can be an example to anyone.

Didn't Hamerfell lose in the end by gaining a worthless part of their land?


Oh ok I see. So just because you don't like the question you don't think the answer matters.

Well that's nice.

What I mean is I feel that since Hammerfell is basically the total opposite of Skyrim, it does not make a good comparison, especially since we do not know what happened post-civil War.


Hammerfell's been discussed on here before... lots of times.

Hammerfell makes a fine comparison when discussing the WGC. But we know something about what happened with Hammerfell up to and during the Civil War.

The scope of this particular discussion has nothing to do with post Civil War Skyrim.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Oh ok I see. So just because you don't like the question you don't think the answer matters.

Well that's nice.

What I mean is I feel that since Hammerfell is basically the total opposite of Skyrim, it does not make a good comparison, especially since we do not know what happened post-civil War.


Hammerfell's been discussed on here before... lots of times.

Hammerfell makes a fine comparison when discussing the WGC. But we know something about what happened with Hammerfell up to and during the Civil War.

The scope of this particular discussion has nothing to do with post Civil War Skyrim.

Actually not really. Skyrim was still a part of the Empire when the WGC was signed, Hammerfell was not. Not a good comparison because Hammerfell has its own groups and neither of them are the Empire.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
What I mean is I feel that since Hammerfell is basically the total opposite of Skyrim, it does not make a good comparison, especially since we do not know what happened post-civil War.


Hammerfell's been discussed on here before... lots of times.

Hammerfell makes a fine comparison when discussing the WGC. But we know something about what happened with Hammerfell up to and during the Civil War.

The scope of this particular discussion has nothing to do with post Civil War Skyrim.

Actually not really. Skyrim was still a part of the Empire when the WGC was signed, Hammerfell was not. Not a good comparison because Hammerfell has its own groups and neither of them are the Empire.


According to The Great War, Hammerfell simply refused to accept the WGC. And Titus II was forced to renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty.

This means Hammerfell was still apart of the Empire after the WGC was signed.

The comparison stands, nice attempt at running interference though. ;)


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
It doesn't matter, that's what people the want. The Empire was happy to let Morrowind/Hammerfell do as they please, but like I said before you've come to the realisation it's a mistake and you need provinces so you'd rather have a Civil War then let Skyrim rule them selves. Skyrim is already isolated.. You said it your self, no legions occupy Skyrim, just "poor auxillaries" so what benefits do you offer apart from xenephobic views that all Nords are lawless barbarians?

If it was what the people wanted, there wouldn't be a Civil War. The Empire lost their holdings in Morrowind during the Stormcrown Interregnum/Red Mountain disaster. Titus II released Hammerfell because they refused the White-Gold Concordat, and the Empire was in no position to force the Redguards to accept peace. Morrowind suffers increased trading tax, they lost free trade when they went on their own.

It has nothing to do with "rather have a Civil War" it was Ulfric who set Skyrim down that path. Torygg was interested in hearing more about Ulfric's views of independence. Ulfric killing the High King and declaring war on the Western Holds in a move to kick out the Empire is hardly a diplomatic solution. It is Ulfric who keeps the Moot from meeting, so the Nords aren't even ruling themselves until Ulfric makes sure it is an easy win.

Skyrim isn't isolated, they're part of the Empire. Three united provinces, preparing for a second war with the Aldmeri Dominion. Stormcloak Skyrim is isolated, no allies and the Empire will most likely attack them. What are you even on about the Legions? I've said it myself that majority of the Legion is down in Cyrodiil preparing for round two with the Thalmor. The locally recruited auxiliaries are what is being used to try combat the rebellion. Titus II is keeping out the reinforcements. You honestly believe the people behind his death will want the Empire split in half? Vici's death is already framed on the Stormcloaks.

What benefits does the Empire offer Skyrim? Free trade, education, food, resources, military service for glory seeking Nords and Orcs wanting to explore the world or master their trade in smithing. Wealth for the Jarls to keep their cities in decent shape.

What do the Stormcloaks offer? Slavery, racial discrimination, xenophobic views to just worship Talos a bit louder? What happened to the Nords... They're turning more Imperial with all these visits to the temple. Last game they thought Imperials were uptight working and visiting the chapel always.

The whole "True Nords" thing the Stormcloaks go on about is really just another form of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

If this is the case, then Spain had no right to govern themselves prior to the Reconquista. For almost 800 years, Spain was not a unified nation with most of Iberia being taken by Muslim invaders. The reason why they couldn't kick them out sooner was because they were always waging wars amongst each other, but that's Feudal Europe for you when your vassals fight among themselves.

But, at 1942 when Iberia was finally in Christian hands, Spain and Portugal took it upon themselves to make fluffING EMPIRES THAT AFFECT OUR WORLD TODAY!!! It was great.

Comparing Tamriel to our world doesn't always work. Nords lorewise don't stay united for long, their conflicting nature ends up turning against them.

Now, you said there was a split in Skyrim... Right down the middle probably. Well, that isn't so bad. Sure, Skyrim has a history of fighting among themselves... But this is different.

Not really, this is the second time they're fighting against the Empire. Also the second time they're fighting for their independence. Stormcloaks are a Nord only focused movement.

Assume Ulfric and Tullius both die. The Jarls supporting Elisef (forgot how to spell her name) still support her. Anyone rising up in Ulfric's place would have to have a lot of his ideas just to keep the Jarls who had supported him to maintain the war, a war that is far easier without a competent strategist leading the enemy. If not Elisef will be made High Queen, probably unanimously.

But, being feudal, that doesn't mean half the Jarls won't petition her to break off from the Empire (something her husband would have done if Ulfric asked). So now, we deal with a lot of what ifs (a what if scenario I enjoy because Tullius isn't here to hold her hand). Feudalism is a curse, really. ;)

Elisif isn't promised to be High Queen, she only has claim, same as the other Jarls. The Empire doesn't decide who becomes the next High King/Queen, the Moot decides. Ulfric was the one who wouldn't risk a Moot.

Tullius can be replaced easily, he himself even makes a comment in Season Unending that he would simply be recalled to Cyrodiil if he agreed to bad terms.

The Stormcloaks require Ulfric, they don't have anyone else really worthy to lead to them. The Jarls who support Ulfric, are very different minded. Laila doesn't have faith in Ulfric, Skald thinks Ulfric is the second coming of Talos, the Jarl in Winterhold seeks more authority for himself.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Neither Raijin or yourself have have really explained anything. Most of it is just conjecture or talking up Ulfric. Raijin can't even explain Hammerfell's stance without posting a video that someone else made.

Anytime you are asked a question, it's always... 'play the game' 'oh it's so simple' or 'Gen Tully is a warmonger'.

If it's so simple why won't you just answer the damn question?

The video explains the history of the Redguards and Hammerfell, which included the situation with the Empire. The validation as of the accuracy on the video is pretty good. If were going to get down to business at least we can get an understanding of the history.

Oh and please! Just stop will you? We've answered your questions with lore attached. You just refuse to acknowledge it. Not my fault, and yes. I even explained to you how much of warmongering General "Tully" (LOL) is, but you reject my explanation after using in-game dialogue. You seem to refuse to accept anything that is negative to the Empire, as it seems to be. You're so bias that you actually fail at debating.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Hammerfell's been discussed on here before... lots of times.

Hammerfell makes a fine comparison when discussing the WGC. But we know something about what happened with Hammerfell up to and during the Civil War.

The scope of this particular discussion has nothing to do with post Civil War Skyrim.

Actually not really. Skyrim was still a part of the Empire when the WGC was signed, Hammerfell was not. Not a good comparison because Hammerfell has its own groups and neither of them are the Empire.


According to The Great War, Hammerfell simply refused to accept the WGC. And Titus II was forced to renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty.

This means Hammerfell was still apart of the Empire after the WGC was signed.

The comparison stands, nice attempt at running interference though. ;)


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

SO? Hammerfell refused and won a war, Skyeim kept it and had no serious fighting until Ulfric. bad comparison.

Skyrim cannot really learn nothing from Hammerfell because Hammerfell and Skyrim are total opposites here.
 
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LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Neither Raijin or yourself have have really explained anything. Most of it is just conjecture or talking up Ulfric. Raijin can't even explain Hammerfell's stance without posting a video that someone else made.

Anytime you are asked a question, it's always... 'play the game' 'oh it's so simple' or 'Gen Tully is a warmonger'.

If it's so simple why won't you just answer the damn question?

The video explains the history of the Redguards and Hammerfell, which included the situation with the Empire. The validation as of the accuracy on the video is pretty good. If were going to get down to business at least we can get an understanding of the history.

Oh and please! Just stop will you? We've answered your questions with lore attached. You just refuse to acknowledge it. Not my fault, and yes. I even explained to you how much of warmongering General "Tully" (LOL) is, but you reject my explanation after using in-game dialogue. You seem to refuse to accept anything that is negative to the Empire, as it seems to be. You're so bias that you actually fail at debating.


So what you're saying is, that you and your buddy over there will not answer any of my questions and you want me to stop asking them because really, you just have an overwhelming hate of the Empire that cannot be founded on ego vice reason. You attack me personally to mask the fact that you guys lost this debate and are either unwilling or unable to discuss Ulfric's policies which puts him in a bad light by his making and his alone.
 
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LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Actually not really. Skyrim was still a part of the Empire when the WGC was signed, Hammerfell was not. Not a good comparison because Hammerfell has its own groups and neither of them are the Empire.


According to The Great War, Hammerfell simply refused to accept the WGC. And Titus II was forced to renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty.

This means Hammerfell was still apart of the Empire after the WGC was signed.

The comparison stands, nice attempt at running interference though. ;)


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

SO? Hammerfell refused and won a war, Skyeim kept it and had no serious fighting until Ulfric. bad comparison.


Ahhh there we are.

Yeah but you're looking at only one comparison.

That's right, Hammerfell won the war but they also left the Empire amicably, which enabled them to win. Skyrim because of Ulfric was torn away by force.

Your move.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
According to The Great War, Hammerfell simply refused to accept the WGC. And Titus II was forced to renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty.

This means Hammerfell was still apart of the Empire after the WGC was signed.

The comparison stands, nice attempt at running interference though. ;)


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

SO? Hammerfell refused and won a war, Skyeim kept it and had no serious fighting until Ulfric. bad comparison.


Ahhh there we are.

Yeah but you're looking at only one comparison.

That's right, Hammerfell won the war but they also left the Empire amicably, which enabled them to win. Skyrim because of Ulfric was torn away by force.

Your move.

That is the only comparison that can be made. Nothing else from Hammerfell truly applies to Skyrim. Skyrim made one choice and nothing serious happened. going by history, Skyrim needs a babysitter to keep them in line.
 
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