Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Flint firestorm]

Lets analyze this

What has Ulfric done?
A) Created a rebellion faction to seize control of Skyrim from the shackles of a dying empire.
B) Fighting for independence from the empire.
C) Fighting to restore the worship of Talos in Skyrim.
D) Fighting to make Skyrim strong again by wanting to be High King.

What has Balgruuf done?
Not a damn thing to help make Skyrim a better place. Sure he sent a few guards to Riverwood, that's all nice, but he was obligated to do it because it's part of his jurisdiction. His action shows nothing. During the The Whispering Door quest, his son reveals that his father still worships Talos privately despite siding with the empire, who was responsible for banning Talos in the first place. I would've gave the man some props if he cast aside his hatred for Ulfric (I think hes driven by jealously more than anything else) and sided with the Stormcloaks, but no he decided to be an ass and put his whiterun people's life at jeopardy because he wanted to show his middle finger off at Ulfric.

Ok stop saying the empire is dying. You cant prove that. Second you mean instead of trying to become high king politicly he starts a war to do it. Turning brother against brother and bring death and destruction to skyrim.

Your entire part on Balgruuf Is wrong.one he clearly cares more for his people then any jarl. As for still worshipping talos, many people who support the empire still do. The only difference is that they don't mind doing it in secret if it means no more bloodshed. Don't make up stuff about him being jealous, he respects ulfric. Maybe the reason he sided with the empire is that they didn't force him to choose. He wanted to stay neutral.
BALGRUUF ALWAYS PUTS HIS PEOPLE FIRST!

 

[Raijin]

Ok stop saying the empire is dying. You cant prove that. Second you mean instead of trying to become high king politicly he starts a war to do it. Turning brother against brother and bring death and destruction to skyrim.


Your entire part on Balgruuf Is wrong.one he clearly cares more for his people then any jarl. As for still worshipping talos, many people who support the empire still do. The only difference is that they don't mind doing it in secret if it means no more bloodshed. Don't make up stuff about him being jealous, he respects ulfric. Maybe the reason he sided with the empire is that they didn't force him to choose. He wanted to stay neutral.
BALGRUUF ALWAYS PUTS HIS PEOPLE FIRST!

Ok let me rephrase that... the Empire is already dead when they signed that damn treaty. Do you think Ulfric started hating the empire for no reason? He fought for the empire until the empire screwed him along with the rest of the Talos worshipers in the ass by signing the treaty. That's what drove him to create his rebellion army to fight against the empire so Skyrim can be free from the empire's hands. The only one who's responsible for turning brother against brother is that filthy emperor Mede. What would Tiber Septim think of how his once strong empire now so weaken to the point of bowing down to the Dominion? What would Ysgramor think of this? TOTAL EMBARRASSMENT.

Why don't you show me some caring things that Balgruuf had done to the people of SKYRIM, not just whiterun but the entire province? Worshipping Talos in secret indicates fear and weakness. If you're proud enough to worship Talos why keep it as a secret? If I became a father I would be telling the world my greatest accomplishments. Keeping it as a secret indicates what you're a shame of it, or invading punishment if caught. Why continue to keep it a secret? Why not stand up for your rights and fight for whats right? That's what Ulfric is doing, and that's why I support him and not the empire.


I say that Balgruuf is jealous of Ulfric because in reality Ulfric is stronger than him. He was able to establish the Th'um while Balgruuf failed to achieve as a youth. I don't know what but theirs some leverage of motivation to what makes him to hate on Ulfric.

 

[Janus3003]

^Because sometimes things aren't always so clear cut like that. Though we may not necessarily see it in game, many Talos worshipers probably have family to think about. Better to continue your worship in private, particularly since the Thalmor have no way of knowing about that.
Furthermore, the ban on Talos worship is only enforced when the Thalmor are breathing down people's necks (which is why you'll never see someone like Heimskr up in Solitude). In fact, the Thalmor probably wouldn't even be in Skyrim if it weren't for Ulfric.

Many Imperial supporters still worship Talos, including the Emperor himself (I seem to remember finding an Amulet of Talos in his wardrobe). They just don't let the Thalmor find out about it.

 

[Docta Corvina]

^Because sometimes things aren't always so clear cut like that. Though we may not necessarily see it in game, many Talos worshipers probably have family to think about. Better to continue your worship in private, particularly since the Thalmor have no way of knowing about that.
Furthermore, the ban on Talos worship is only enforced when the Thalmor are breathing down people's necks (which is why you'll never see someone like Heimskr up in Solitude). In fact, the Thalmor probably wouldn't even be in Skyrim if it weren't for Ulfric.

Many Imperial supporters still worship Talos, including the Emperor himself (I seem to remember finding an Amulet of Talos in his wardrobe). They just don't let the Thalmor find out about it.

THIS!

Seriously...the very horse thief that keeps getting brought up in these threads when regarding the "lazy" Empire is actually a point of support for the notion that things weren't so bad until Ulfric started making noise. And again, Heimskr's persistent presence in Whiterun is proof positive that nothing is as cut and dry as the propaganda would have you believe.

Personally, I think it would disgust Tiber Septim to see the civil war raging. Even barring the issues at hand for either side, the decimation of the native population - as is a fact of civil warfare - does nothing but put everyone involved in a far weaker position to retaliate against the Thalmor, by whatever means your political alliance prefers/requires. This is precisely why the Thalmor highly desire a long, drawn out civil engagement in Skyrim, as opposed to a quick result on either side and assumed staunching of blood-letting.

As for Ulfric's reasons for starting war, well, let's just say that they can be interpreted in various ways. And at the end of the day, neither side is going to agree ultimately about his motivations. I do almost feel like a 'dead horse' meme is appropriate for all these threads by this point, lol.

 

[Flint firestorm]

Prove ulfrics stronger.the empire wanted to stop the death and destruction that was hitting cyriodil. The nords don't under stand because the war never made it to skyrim.

 

[Six Gun Tarot]

I do remember a few NPCs saying that the only reason the thalmor are in Skyrim is because of Ulfric

 

[Dagmar]

Lets analyze this

What has Ulfric done?

A) Created a rebellion faction to seize control of Skyrim from the shackles of a dying empire.Slayed the High King in an attempt to usurp the Throne of Skyrim
B) Fighting for independence from the empire.Unilaterally plunged Skyrim into a possibly unnecessary bloody civil war that irrefutably harms the population and resources of Skyrim.
C) Fighting to restore the worship of Talos in Skyrim.Forced the Empire to actually enforce a previously toothless edict against the worship of Talos and enabled the Thalmor to seize, interrogate and torture the people of Skyrim.
D) Fighting to make Skyrim strong again by wanting to be High King.Fighting to make both the Empire and Skyrim weaker to fulfill his own narcissistic ambitions.

What has Balgruuf done?

He's the only Jarl who actively assisted the Dovahkiin in stopping Alduin which saves not only all the people of Skyrim but of Tamriel as well.

 

[Greatsword]

A) Created a rebellion faction to seize control of Skyrim from the shackles of a dying empire.Slayed the High King in an attempt to usurp the Throne of Skyrim
B) Fighting for independence from the empire.Unilaterally plunged Skyrim into a possibly unnecessary bloody civil war that irrefutably harms the population and resources of Skyrim.
C) Fighting to restore the worship of Talos in Skyrim.Forced the Empire to actually enforce a previously toothless edict against the worship of Talos and enabled the Thalmor to seize, interrogate and torture the people of Skyrim.
D) Fighting to make Skyrim strong again by wanting to be High King.Fighting to make both the Empire and Skyrim weaker to fulfill his own narcissistic ambitions.

He's the only Jarl who actively assisted the Dovahkiin in stopping Alduin which saves not only all the people of Skyrim but of Tamriel as well.

Good job Let's see them arguing with that

 

[Kraad Vestru]

Prove ulfrics stronger.the empire wanted to stop the death and destruction that was hitting cyriodil. The nords don't under stand because the war never made it to skyrim.

That I would have to disagree with, how many people in Skyrim lost family because of the war? How many veterans are in Skyrim? Noster in Solitude is a prime example. Sure they may have not had fighting directly in Skyrim but to say that they don't understand is completely unfair. The Nords have a national and instinctual understanding of war and it's costs almost as much as the Orcs do I'd wager.

Ok stop saying the empire is dying. You cant prove that. Second you mean instead of trying to become high king politicly he starts a war to do it. Turning brother against brother and bring death and destruction to skyrim.

Your entire part on Balgruuf Is wrong.one he clearly cares more for his people then any jarl. As for still worshipping talos, many people who support the empire still do. The only difference is that they don't mind doing it in secret if it means no more bloodshed. Don't make up stuff about him being jealous, he respects ulfric. Maybe the reason he sided with the empire is that they didn't force him to choose. He wanted to stay neutral.
BALGRUUF ALWAYS PUTS HIS PEOPLE FIRST!

The Empire is dying I don't see how you can see that. They lost Summerset Isles, the lost Valenwood, They lost Elsweyr, they lost Black Marsh they lost Morrowind to Argonia withough so much as lifting a finger to help the Dunmer, they lost Hammerfell, lost the Reach then Ulfric took it back (despite his very harsh methods in doing so), and are about to lose Skyrim what about that says that it's not dying? Soon there will only be High Rock and Cyrodiil left. And How long do you think they will together stand after that? High Rock cut off from Cyrodiil by a hostile Skyrim and Hammerfell, not long I think. This is the death throws of the Empire.

But I do agree with you on the fact that Balgruuf isn't given enough credit, I mean he did manage to stay a neutral party effectively keeping his people out of the civil war until Ulfric forced his hand. But it was his dislike for Ulfric that drove him into the arms of the Imperials. As for Worshiping Talos in secret I don't think it was all that secret I mean he allowed Heimskr to preach openly in the temple square. If he didn't have Talos sympathies he would have sicked the Thalmor on him. I wish that Balgruuf could have kept his Jarlship but the grater good of Skyrim needed some sacrifices no matter how distasteful they were.

 

[Kraad Vestru]

Good job Let's see them arguing with that

I will argue with it after I make a snack for my daughter and put her to bed then expect me back to argue with a few of her points.

 

[Jeremius]

That I would have to disagree with, how many people in Skyrim lost family because of the war? How many veterans are in Skyrim? Noster in Solitude is a prime example. Sure they may have not had fighting directly in Skyrim but to say that they don't understand is completely unfair. The Nords have a national and instinctual understanding of war and it's costs almost as much as the Orcs do I'd wager.



The Empire is dying I don't see how you can see that. They lost Summerset Isles, the lost Valenwood, They lost Elsweyr, they lost Black Marsh they lost Morrowind to Argonia withough so much as lifting a finger to help the Dunmer, they lost Hammerfell, lost the Reach then Ulfric took it back (despite his very harsh methods in doing so), and are about to lose Skyrim what about that says that it's not dying? Soon there will only be High Rock and Cyrodiil left. And How long do you think they will together stand after that? High Rock cut off from Cyrodiil by a hostile Skyrim and Hammerfell, not long I think. This is the death throws of the Empire.

But I do agree with you on the fact that Balgruuf isn't given enough credit, I mean he did manage to stay a neutral party effectively keeping his people out of the civil war until Ulfric forced his hand. But it was his dislike for Ulfric that drove him into the arms of the Imperials. As for Worshiping Talos in secret I don't think it was all that secret I mean he allowed Heimskr to preach openly in the temple square. If he didn't have Talos sympathies he would have sicked the Thalmor on him. I wish that Balgruuf could have kept his Jarlship but the grater good of Skyrim needed some sacrifices no matter how distasteful they were.

even of the Empire is dying, but i do not see how a victory over a Jarl who, in the legion's mind, is a traitor, cannot re-vitalize it to it's pre-GW days.

 

[Kraad Vestru]

even of the Empire is dying, but i do not see how a victory over a Jarl who, in the legion's mind, is a traitor, cannot re-vitalize it to it's pre-GW days.

Now that My daughter is fed and down for a nap... The Empire can't get back to it's Pre-Great War days because Hammerfell won't be part of the Empire again. Maybe if a Septim or a Cyrodiil (the line like Raymond, I think that's his name anyway, the face on Sky Haven Temple not the region) was on the throne it would be a different story. But I don't think the Mede line has it in them to keep the empire together much less restore it. But if a Septim or a Cyrodiil was on the throne Ulfric would have been crushed from the onset and the Empire wouldn't have HALF of the problems it has now. Because I can't believe that the Empire can be saved anymone is the reason I back the Stormcloaks. Maybe if this game took place in the Great War that would be different. I believe that Talos wants Skyrim to be free and the Empire to burn to ashes so that it can be rebuilt the elves properly humbled and everything to right itself and he's using the Dragonborn to do it.

 

[Jeremius]

Now that My daughter is fed and down for a nap... The Empire can't get back to it's Pre-Great War days because Hammerfell won't be part of the Empire again. Maybe if a Septim or a Cyrodiil (the line like Raymond, I think that's his name anyway, the face on Sky Haven Temple not the region) was on the throne it would be a different story. But I don't think the Mede line has it in them to keep the empire together much less restore it. But if a Septim or a Cyrodiil was on the throne Ulfric would have been crushed from the onset and the Empire wouldn't have HALF of the problems it has now. Because I can't believe that the Empire can be saved anymone is the reason I back the Stormcloaks. Maybe if this game took place in the Great War that would be different. I believe that Talos wants Skyrim to be free and the Empire to burn to ashes so that it can be rebuilt the elves properly humbled and everything to right itself and he's using the Dragonborn to do it.

if that is the Case, then why would Hadvar try to be reasonable with the stormcoaks only to have those self-righteous gits try to kill you on sight? i did not mean completely but more the zeal and conviction they had back then, When Mede rejected the WGC the first time.

 

[Kraad Vestru]

A) Created a rebellion faction to seize control of Skyrim from the shackles of a dying empire.Slayed the High King in an attempt to usurp the Throne of Skyrim
B) Fighting for independence from the empire.Unilaterally plunged Skyrim into a possibly unnecessary bloody civil war that irrefutably harms the population and resources of Skyrim.
C) Fighting to restore the worship of Talos in Skyrim.Forced the Empire to actually enforce a previously toothless edict against the worship of Talos and enabled the Thalmor to seize, interrogate and torture the people of Skyrim.
D) Fighting to make Skyrim strong again by wanting to be High King.Fighting to make both the Empire and Skyrim weaker to fulfill his own narcissistic ambitions

A.)He killed Dead King Torygg to prove he was weak and by extension they Empire because the Empire was protecting him. The Civil War would have happened anyway Ulfric is not one to give up just because of a small road block. Skyrim was ready to begin a rebellion against the Empire over the White-Gold Concordant anyway Ulfric was just the antagonist.
B.)See aforementioned point about the war, I can't deny that it's has had an adverse affect on the population and the resources.
C.)The Edict was not toothless in the first place, they had to alienate Hammerfell because they would not live up to it. The fact that they had to do this to survive shows that it wasn't toothless, and the Thalmor would have cracked down on Skyrim eventually because it's where Talos was from the Civil War just sped up the process.
D.)Well I can't argue against the fact that Ulfric has a number of Narcissistic attributes mostly he just sees how the Empire has abandoned Skyrim, I believe most of this stems from that fact that the Reachmen were unopposed in taking Markarth and the Reach. In his mind and others the Empire has failed to do it's most basic of duties as a ruling body, DEFEND it's people and their rights. The Empire showed that not only is it incapable of protecting Skyrim anymore, but has removed a right that has been part the the Empire for centuries.

 

[Kraad Vestru]

if that is the Case, then why would Hadvar try to be reasonable with the stormcoaks only to have those self-righteous gits try to kill you on sight? i did not mean completely but more the zeal and conviction they had back then, When Mede rejected the WGC the first time.

Because he believed he had the strength to reject it then he doesn't now even if the Empire were to pacify the Stormcloak rebellion they wouldn't survive the war with the dominion again. There is no Hammerfell to keep them occupied this time. Hammerfell is a independent nation that has already beaten the Dominion once. The Thalmor will just destroy the Empire the next time then focus on places like Argonia and Hammerfell.

 

[Jeremius]

yet, how does attacking an imperial soldier who is trying be reasonable with them makes them the good guys?

 

[King o' the Britains]

i chose the stormcloaks because i couldnt stand tullius's voice

 

[Kraad Vestru]

yet, how does attacking an imperial soldier who is trying be reasonable with them makes them the good guys?

Most the the Imperial soldiers I encountered before joining the Stormcloaks were just the eager to kill a Stormcloak as a Stormcloak was to kill them.

 

[Kraad Vestru]

i chose the stormcloaks because i couldnt stand tullius's voice

LOL, well that's the first reason I've heard like that.

 

[Infernity]

I chose Stormcloaks. f***fing Imperials wanted to chop my head off! Couldn't forgive them for that!
Moreover, I have more faith in humans than I have in gods, so I don't like the Thalmors' attitude.