Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Docta Corvina]

The point he was trying to make is to some idiot asked why Ulfric didn't rid of the Thalmor Embassy, so he replied with the proof that Brunwulf didn't do much either. And the Thalmor Embassy is essential for the Main Questline

Hmm, I was pretty sure he was referencing the discussion about the Dark Elves and their segregation in Windhelm, among other issues of race related to Ulfric.

If I'm mistaken, then carry on merrily, by all means.

 

[Epic Keith]

What about the thalmar base on the coast?

That is essential to another quest where you have to retrieve Thonar Grey-Mane after the Battle-borns leaked his information to the Empire. After clearing it out it will reset with bandits

 

[Dagmar]

What part of "independence" Don't you get? What part of "having your own nation and your own laws" don't you get? What part of "revolution/rebellion" don't you get?

I don't know what the point of this little screed was but it's completely irrelevant to the post to which it responds which simply explains what Imperial law Ulfric is considered to have broken and why.

Ulfric declares independence from the Empire...

Ulfric has no authority to declare independence from the Empire. He's just a Jarl of a Hold, and he not only lacks any authority by Nord tradition or the laws of Skyrim, he doesn't even enjoy the popular support of the Nords in Skyrim. That's why it's referred to as a civil war. Your comparison to the American Revolution is way off the mark. What's happening in Skyrim is more analogous to the time of the Troubles in Northern Ireland with Nationalists on one side and Unionists on the other.

 

[Flint firestorm]

An even better analogy to the trouble in skyrim is the irish civil war that started when half the government wanted to leave the commonwealth and the other didn't. The country was split in half and a civil war started.

 

[DWFII]

He lied by saying he stabbed him in the heart. He shouted him apart. WHERES THE BODY?

Where's Bin Laden's body? Think about it....

 

[Flint firestorm]

Going by your theory how do we know ww2 even happened?

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

 

[DWFII]

Ulfric has no authority to declare independence from the Empire.

What authority did The Founding Fathers have to declare Independence from England? By your standards...none. And you would have plenty of people who agreed with you including one of the most respected and most famous Generals of the time--General Benedict Arnold.

But it was done.

He's just a Jarl of a Hold, and he not only lacks any authority by Nord tradition or the laws of Skyrim,

That contradicts the Lore...and Sybyll Stentor...and everything we know about the social/civil set-up in Skyrim. Having challenged and defeated Torygg, he is the rightful High King (unless someone will challenge and defeat him). This kind of thing went on all the time in 10th century Gotaland (Sweden). If he doesn't have the authority to declare independence, no one does. Which is fine with the Imperial apologists but not so fine with everyone else...in and out of the game.

Beyond that, in a way that no other character in the game relevant to Skyrim, has exhibited, Ulfric represents a legitimate authority in Skyrim--one that cares intensely about the people and their culture and their Traditions and is not beholden to a foreign power.

The fact of the matter is that no historical analogy holds precisely but many give us insights into the way people behave and what has gone before. And I'm including the Lore.

 

[DWFII]

Going by your theory how do we know ww2 even happened?

How do we know you're not an NPC?

Come on, dude, get real. Put some thought into what you post.

 

[Flint firestorm]

What do you mean? Your the one who's saying that all lthe witnesses are lying all on the grounds that you wearnt there

 

[Epic Keith]

ww2 happened

Proof

Museums
Pictures
News worldwide
Grandparents
History

 

[DWFII]

You are missing, or purposely going over what I said entirely. If it wasn't for Ulfric's actions, the Empire and the Thalmor would NOT be in Skyrim. Thus, there would not be people being dragged off because of Talos worship. Seriously, you seen have the Priest in Whiterun who spouts Talos crap everyday for hours. Where are the Thalmor to haul his ass away?

According to the Lore, the Empire engineered the Markarth incident. Jarl Igmund says as much. Please read my posts before responding to them...no, I mean actually read them.

It wasn't Ulfric's actions that caused any of this. It was oleaginous assurances and the habitual currying of favour that caused the Empire (Igmund and Torygg) to make promises that it couldn't keep. Or more correctly, that the Thalmor would not let their bum-boys keep.

Ulfric did what he was asked to do. The Empire reneged.

And BTW, given that Torygg caved to the Thalmor, reneged on a promise made to someone he supposedly respected, and even went so far as to have Ulfric arrested...it beggers the imagination and all credulity to suggest that he would have gone along with Ulfric's suggestion to declare independence.

 

[Flint firestorm]

Dude I'm just saying that by DWFll theory every thing we don't see can't be proved

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

According to the Lore, the Empire engineered the Markarth incident. Jarl Igmund says as much. Please read my posts before responding to them...no, I mean actually read them.

It wasn't Ulfric's actions that caused any of this. It was oleaginous assurances and the habitual currying of favour that caused the Empire (Igmund and Torygg) to make promises that it couldn't keep. Or more correctly, that the Thalmor would not let their bum-boys keep.

Ulfric did what he was asked to do. The Empire reneged.

And BTW, given that Torygg caved to the Thalmor, reneged on a promise made to someone he supposedly respected, and even went so far as to have Ulfric arrested...it beggers the imagination and all credulity to suggest that he would have gone along with Ulfric's suggestion to declare independence.

I'm not trying to paint the Empire as perfection, because they are not. Any form of government is open to corruption. To think that a large established government can be without flaws and problems is a childish dream.

You on the other hand are trying to paint Ulfric as without fault.

And there are many reasons as to why Torygg would NOT have wanted independence. Whether you like it or not, Skyrim depended on the Empire for numerous goods and trade. If they were to succeed from the Empire, all that aid and support would be gone. A King/Emperor/Leader has to put all of this into perspective when making a huge decision like this.

 

[Flint firestorm]

And it was Igmund who caved into thalmar pressure, not Torygg. What jersey is saying is that if Ulfric hadn't killed the high king there would be no big thalmar and empire army's there

 

[Epic Keith]

And it was Igmund who caved into thalmar pressure, not Torygg. What jersey is saying is that if Ulfric hadn't killed the high king there would be no big thalmar and empire army's there

*Thalmor

 

[DWFII]

Dude I'm just saying that by DWFll theory every thing we don't see can't be proved

This is what I mean about "thinking about it". In the case of bin laden we don't have a body because someone decided they didn't want a body.

It suits Imperial propaganda to suggest that Ulfric shouted Torygg apart. A body might disprove that.

As does end game scenes where Ulfric is fighting Tullius and can hardly knock him off his feet. Now maybe he's holding back because he loves Tullius, feels it's mutual, and he considers himself invincible. Or maybe Torygg was so frail that if Ulfric had sneezed he would fall to pieces.

This illustrates the problem with relying on hearsay and speculation---it always comes down to he said/she said and interpretation. And there's noting to indicate that your interpretation is better than mine.

And much to suggest it's not as good.

 

[DWFII]

And it was Igmund who caved into thalmar pressure, not Torygg. What jersey is saying is that if Ulfric hadn't killed the high king there would be no big thalmar and empire army's there

Igmund is subordinate to the High King. The Lore has it that while each Jarl has some autonomy (predicated mostly on the distances involved and a poor communication network), the High King is the maker of laws and the ultimate authority. If Igmund hadn't consulted with Torygg and gotten his, at least tacit, approval he wouldn't remain Jarl for long.

And do you think that when the Thalmor found out that a promise of free worship had been made to Ulfric that they would have by-passed the King...kept him in the dark...and dealt directly with a vassal?

If so...it's just another indication of how weak Torygg was.

If being a King is...as some wag here said...more about being a good administrator, and Torygg didn't know and approve, then he was neither--a good King nor a good administrator.

 

[Hildolfr]

What authority did The Founding Fathers have to declare Independence from England? By your standards...none. And you would have plenty of people who agreed with you including one of the most respected and most famous Generals of the time--General Benedict Arnold.

Well, Benedict Arnold was a staunch supporter of the Revolution. He only switched sides because the Americans screwed him out of some due credit for a few military accomplishments. Just sayin'...

 

[Dagmar]

What authority did The Founding Fathers have to declare Independence from England? By your standards...none.

Only if you're completely ignorant about early United States history. The American War for Independence was an authorized act of the Second Continental Congress whose representatives were appointed by the duly elected legislatures of the 13 American Colonies. Notwithstanding your self-made revisionist view of history, the Loyalists were in the distinct minority with the a considerably larger plurality supporting Colonial independence and the remaining (also larger) plurality sitting on the fence.

That contradicts the Lore...and Sybyll Stentor...and everything we know about the social/civil set-up in Skyrim. Having challenged and defeated Torygg, he is the rightful High King (unless someone will challenge and defeat him).

This further illustrates your ignorance not only of the lore of the game but what is said in the game itself. Nothing I said contradicts anything Sybille Stentor says in the game. The right of challenge doesn't entitle the victor to the throne of the High King. It only confers the right to dethrone the current High King. It's up to the Moot to decide who becomes the next High King afterwards as confirmed both by the lore and what Ulfric himself says in the game.

Beyond that, in a way that no other character in the game relevant to Skyrim, has exhibited, Ulfric represents a legitimate authority in Skyrim--one that cares intensely about the people and their culture and their Traditions and is not beholden to a foreign power.

That's merely your opinion based on selectively taking what Ulfric says on faith. Actions speak louder than words, and one can observe many actions on Ulfric's part that are not easy to reconcile with his taking the interests of Skyrim over his own, first and foremost being his complete lack of effort to find a diplomatic solution for Skyrim's independence before plunging Skyrim into a civil war. Even by his own words at the end of the Stormcloak faction questline in his final dialogue with General Tullius, Ulfric concedes the moral ambiguity of the Stormcloak's cause.

And I'm including the Lore.

If by including you mean alternatively ignoring it or distorting it then yes you are.