Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Raijin]

He stands accused of High Treason, no where in the law does it say it had to be murder. He killed High King Torygg, thus harming him. Punishment is death.

You're joking me, right? Ulfric challenge Torygg to a duel, and HE AGREED! How is that punishable by death If he wins the fight that was verbally agreed upon? That makes ZERO sense whatsoever. That is insane!

 

[DrunkenMage]

Where does it say that in the Imperial law?

It doesn't, it is normal even in our world. We've never seen the Empire enact martial law, besides during the Oblivion Crisis when Dagon attacked the Imperial City.

Typically, the imposition of martial law accompanies curfews, the suspension of civil law, civil rights, habeas corpus, and the application or extension of military law or military justice to civilians.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You're joking me, right? Ulfric challenge Torygg to a duel, and HE AGREED! How is that punishable by death If he wins the fight that was verbally agreed upon? That makes ZERO sense whatsoever. That is insane!

Kings can do whatever they like, and rarely are subject to their own laws. Perhaps you should look up on medieval history, I'm sure there would be some interesting things about law in those days.

How does it make zero sense? Last time I checked you can't even do that in our modern age. If I killed someone in some duel, do you think the police and justice would accept "Well we both agreed to it"

 

[DrunkenMage]

It's not just about one law, it's principal.. The Empire is willing to let everybody die before it does

The Empire is a collection of millions of people. The worship of Talos was what Titus II deemed a necessary sacrifice to rebuild to fight another day.

If the Empire was truly willing to let everybody die before it did, it would have kept fighting until every last man, woman and child was dead.

no matter how much of an established political system you think you are, you're decisions have cost you respect.

Respect is meaningless. The Legions would die willingly in defense of the Empire, but there are millions of innocents to consider. The Empire is still standing and has been regrouping it's strength.

If you had authority, and the power to enforce that authority, there'd be no rebellion. The fact is you can't defend more than one province, you're no good for any region anymore.

Ulfric's rebellion took place when majority of the Legions went south into Cyrodiil gearing up for the next war. The Empire fought in Hammerfell until the very last year of the war, when it had to throw what was left at the Thalmor (Who also threw everything it could spare into Cyrodiil).

If you're talking about defending Skyrim from the Stormcloaks, the Legion had captured Ulfric and nearly executed him. Titus II isn't willing to send Tullius all the reinforcements he's requested, but even if he would... Pale Pass is blocked and keeping out would be reinforcements.

Politics and snow is stopping Tullius from wiping the Stormcloaks from the face of Nirn. But, Titus II dies and the Pass finally gets cleared at some point. Galmar suspects the Empire will try reclaim Skyrim, they're not going to let the province go that easily.

 

[Raijin]

Kings can do whatever they like, and rarely are subject to their own laws. Perhaps you should look up on medieval history, I'm sure there would be some interesting things about law in those days.

How does it make zero sense? Last time I checked you can't even do that in our modern age. If I killed someone in some duel, do you think the police and justice would accept "Well we both agreed to it"

Torygg expressed that right when he accepted Ulfric's challenge to a duel rather than to toss him in prison. You don't need to be an expert on medieval history to figure out that a verbal agreement has been made, and sealed. In fact I find it quite strange that Ulfric manage to escape the city without being killed by Torygg's guards and soldiers. In a RL settings the city must be FULL of guards and soldiers, especially when a King is living there, and with that requires the maximum security force to prevent assassins and other things.

It doesn't, it is normal even in our world. We've never seen the Empire enact martial law, besides during the Oblivion Crisis when Dagon attacked the Imperial City.

Typically, the imposition of martial law accompanies curfews, the suspension of civil law, civil rights, habeas corpus, and the application or extension of military law or military justice to civilians.

You keep proving my point. Torygg was a terrible High King. Didn't know jack about Imperial law yet embraces the Empire. He accepted a fight with one of his noble citizens that was clearly illegal in Imperial law without thinking of the dire consequences.

Way to go High dumb Torygg... You force the Empire to declare martial law in Skyrim from your dumb mistakes. Instead of tossing Ulfric in the prisons you choose to accept the fight, and died for it. I hope Alduin eats you in Sovngarde.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Torygg expressed that right when he accepted Ulfric's challenge to a duel rather than to toss him in prison. You don't need to be an expert on medieval history to figure out that a verbal agreement has been made, and sealed. In fact I find it quite strange that Ulfric manage to escape the city without being killed by Torygg's guards and soldiers. In a RL settings the city must be FULL of guards and soldiers, especially when a King is living there, and with that requires the maximum security force to prevent assassins and other things.

It doesn't matter, the Empire overrides that. In a RL settings, Ulfric would have rode up to the palace on a horse. When Ulfric used the Thu'um on Torygg, and killed him... I'd be thinking twice about chasing after him too closely.

You keep proving my point. Torygg was a terrible High King. Didn't know jack about Imperial law yet embraces the Empire. He accepted a fight with one of his noble citizens that was clearly illegal in Imperial law without thinking of the dire consequences.

Way to go High dumb Torygg... You force the Empire to declare martial law in Skyrim from your dumb mistakes. Instead of tossing Ulfric in the prisons you choose to accept the fight, and died for it. I hope Alduin eats you in Sovngarde.

Torygg proved himself to be a true Nord. No Nord would have backed down when you put their honor in question. Torygg faced another Jarl, the High King is a Jarl also.

"I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?" - High King Torygg

Tradition and law conflict, especially old Nordic traditions. To actually truly be a citizen of Skyrim, you have to go kill an Ice Wraith. (In the Old Holds anyway)

Now lets put up a scenario.

If Ulfric were to die, be assassinated, killed in some skirmish in Skyrim or eaten by a Troll. Who do you support then? Take Ulfric Stormcloak out of the picture, and do you see the Jarls agreeing on a new ruler?

Elisif's future after the Imperial Victory is uncertain, her being High Queen isn't something her Steward mentions as a certainty. Only that she has legitimate claim to the throne, same as the other Jarls. The Empire doesn't really care who rules Skyrim, they'd allow a Necromancer or Vampire on the throne if it meant things being calm.

 

[Raijin]

It doesn't matter, the Empire overrides that. In a RL settings, Ulfric would have rode up to the palace on a horse. When Ulfric used the Thu'um on Torygg, and killed him... I'd be thinking twice about chasing after him too closely.

It does matter and who cares if Ulfric can use the Thu'um. Tiber Septims Dragonborn career came to an end when a High Rock nightblade managed to slit his throat.

4th of Morning Star 1E140

We've brought down their main gate thanks to the young Voice master, but the brash lad took an arrow in the neck in the process. It seems he will be joining the Eight in Sovngarde soon. The cultists have fallen back to the interior of the Monastery but soon enough we will breach those defenses. The sooner the better - it's too blasted cold on this mountain.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Skorm_Snow-Strider's_Journal

You mean to tell me that their wasn't anyone in Toryggs court who mastered the marksmen training, and couldn't impale an arrow into Ulfrics throat? If Ulfric was running away from the scene you mean to tell me that nobody couldn't get a good shot of him? Also didn't the guards/Soldiers have access to horses? You see things don't make sense in a RL POV. Ulfric just murdered the High king, and he gets away? I call that bull crap. The story doesn't connect the puzzle.

Torygg proved himself to be a true Nord. No Nord would have backed down when you put their honor in question. Torygg faced another Jarl, the High King is a Jarl also.

"I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?" - High King Torygg

Tradition and law conflict, especially old Nordic traditions. To actually truly be a citizen of Skyrim, you have to go kill an Ice Wraith. (In the Old Holds anyway)

Now lets put up a scenario.

If Ulfric were to die, be assassinated, killed in some skirmish in Skyrim or eaten by a Troll. Who do you support then? Take Ulfric Stormcloak out of the picture, and do you see the Jarls agreeing on a new ruler?

Elisif's future after the Imperial Victory is uncertain, her being High Queen isn't something her Steward mentions as a certainty. Only that she has legitimate claim to the throne, same as the other Jarls. The Empire doesn't really care who rules Skyrim, they'd put a Necromancer or Vampire on the throne if it meant things being calm.

Torygg might of proven himself to be a true Nord by going to Sovngarde, but that doesn't mean jack to the Empire. The Empire doesn't follow the Nordic tradition when they branded Ulfric a criminal of murdering the high king. To them it is inferer to what they believe, and their Imperial laws. The Empire is intolerant of other peoples cultures, Traditions and Religion.

Yes the Empire does care who rules Skyrim. Who are you kidding? They need someone who is completely devoted to them so that the relationship can continue. They're looking for another King/Queen puppet to control.

For as long as Skyrim is depended on the Empire the Empire will have things their way. Do you honestly believe for a moment that the Empire (Tullius) would tolerate the Moot choosing someone else to rule Skyrim other than Elisif? Tullius is dead on in making Elisif queen, and he will have it his way.

The Empire can very well declare another martial law if the government there doesn't reach to their likings. If needed they would force the local government officials out, and replace it with those who alien themselves with the Empires interests.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It does matter and who cares if Ulfric can use the Thu'um. Tiber Septims Dragonborn career came to an end when a High Rock nightblade managed to slit his throat.

You're preaching to the choir here, I have often argued the Thu'um isn't everything. It is your Stormcloak buddies who consider it the ultimate thing that nothing can stop.

You mean to tell me that their wasn't anyone in Toryggs court who mastered the marksmen training, and couldn't impale an arrow into Ulfrics throat? If Ulfric was running away from the scene you mean to tell me that nobody couldn't get a good shot of him? Also didn't the guards/Soldiers have access to horses? You see things don't make sense in a RL POV. Ulfric just murdered the High king, and he gets away? I call that bull crap. The story doesn't connect the puzzle.

Shock. If the duel took place in the courtyard, and Ulfric used the Thu'um to either kill him or stab him after. He could have easily fled and escape with the aid of the Gate Guard. Seeing the voice first hand would have a huge surprise factor. No Nord has seen it in over six hundred years or more, unless a Greybeard.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone watching it unfold. One moment Torygg was there, the next you hear the loudest sound of thunder imaginable, then he ceased to be in a blink of an eye. How long would it take you to completely recover and figure out what exactly just happened? By then he could be halfway down the street riding like hell.

My other theory is that he killed Torygg and left, then the Empire stepped in and deemed it illegal. Sending General Tullius to enact martial law.

Torygg might of proven himself to be a true Nord by going to Sovngarde, but that doesn't mean jack to the Empire. The Empire doesn't follow the Nordic tradition when they branded Ulfric a criminal of murdering the high king. To them it is inferer to what they believe, and their Imperial laws. The Empire is intolerant of other peoples cultures, Traditions and Religion.

That is a bold claim, calling the Empire intolerant of other cultures, traditions and religions is simply false. Especially since the Empire preserved many traditions in the provinces and freedom of religion was an Imperial concept. There are those within the Empire who are ignorant of other cultures, but never intolerant.

Yes the Empire does care who rules Skyrim. Who are you kidding? They need someone who is completely devoted to them so that the relationship can continue. They're looking for another King/Queen puppet to control.

Who are you kidding... read up on Skyrim history. So called "puppet rulers" have actually in the past annexed several fiefdoms that once belonged directly to the Emperor. The Nords were also attacking House Redoran and even Imperial forts during the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire doesn't hand pick the ruler, so why would they start now after six hundred years. Rulers can change opinion, can have heirs of different views. Politics, trade agreements, marriages keep relationships.

There was some Witch queen ruling Whiterun at one point too.

For as long as Skyrim is depended on the Empire the Empire will have things their way. Do you honestly believe for a moment that the Empire (Tullius) would tolerate the Moot choosing someone else to rule Skyrim other than Elisif? Tullius is dead on in making Elisif queen, and he will have it his way.

Yes. The Empire doesn't have a say, the Moot elects the High King/Queen. The Empire does not pick who does and doesn't rule Skyrim. The Moot has the authority when there is no heir. Besides, all the Jarls at the end are loyal to the Empire.

The Nord Jarls decide who rules the land when the royal line has been broken, not Tullius, not Cyrodiil. Tullius is backing Elisif's claim, but he can't make her queen.

The Empire can very well declare another martial law if the government there doesn't reach to their likings. If needed they would force the local government officials out, and replace it with those who alien themselves with the Empires interests.

... No. The Legion stepped in when Skyrim's governance broke down. Not once has the Empire enacted Martial Law anytime a ruler has issues with Imperial interests. Diplomacy is used more often than not.

The same could just be said of Ulfric... That he can very well use his Stormcloaks and Galmar to force out anyone who disagrees with his views.

 

[Lewsean]

Shock. If the duel took place in the courtyard, and Ulfric used the Thu'um to either kill him or stab him after. He could have easily fled and escape with the aid of the Gate Guard. Seeing the voice first hand would have a huge surprise factor. No Nord has seen it in over six hundred years or more, unless a Greybeard.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone watching it unfold. One moment Torygg was there, the next you hear the loudest sound of thunder imaginable, then he ceased to be in a blink of an eye. How long would it take you to completely recover and figure out what exactly just happened? By then he could be halfway down the street riding like hell.

My other theory is that he killed Torygg and left, then the Empire stepped in and deemed it illegal. Sending General Tullius to enact martial law.

The Empire chose to deem it illegal because it screwed up their puppeteering in Skyrim. Every pro-Empire person in Solitude knew what Ulfric did was completely legal, hence the easy "escape". Nobody was shocked that Ulfric used the Th'um, it was common knowledge he trained with the Greybeards, he also fought in the Great War with many Nords. And stop saying that the shout killed him, it's impossible. He was shouted to the ground then stabbed.

That is a bold claim, calling the Empire intolerant of other cultures, traditions and religions is simply false. Especially since the Empire preserved many traditions in the provinces and freedom of religion was an Imperial concept. There are those within the Empire who are ignorant of other cultures, but never intolerant.

All that comes out of Tullius' mouth is intolerant bullplops about Nords and their culture, he speaks to his second in command like plops in that regard.

Who are you kidding... read up on Skyrim history. So called "puppet rulers" have actually in the past annexed several fiefdoms that once belonged directly to the Emperor. The Nords were also attacking House Redoran and even Imperial forts during the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire doesn't hand pick the ruler, so why would they start now after six hundred years. Rulers can change opinion, can have heirs of different views. Politics, trade agreements, marriages keep relationships.

There was some Witch queen ruling Whiterun at one point too.

The difference is the Empire is on the verge of destruction, I guess I need to repeat the statement I've made so many times that your clutching at straws. 100-200 years of ignorance to the build up of the Great War has cost you. (Don't deny the ignorance either, you agreed on this very thing in past posts)

... No. The Legion stepped in when Skyrim's governance broke down. Not once has the Empire enacted Martial Law anytime a ruler has issues with Imperial interests. Diplomacy is used more often than not.

The same could just be said of Ulfric... That he can very well use his Stormcloaks and Galmar to force out anyone who disagrees with his views.

Skyrim's Government hasn't broke down, their was succession by Skyrim tradition, but it effects the Empire's strength in Tamriel so you intervine. If having a puppet King wasn't in your interests then you'd back off and allow Skyrim's traditions to stay and Ulfric would be High King by right.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Shock. If the duel took place in the courtyard, and Ulfric used the Thu'um to either kill him or stab him after. He could have easily fled and escape with the aid of the Gate Guard. Seeing the voice first hand would have a huge surprise factor. No Nord has seen it in over six hundred years or more, unless a Greybeard.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone watching it unfold. One moment Torygg was there, the next you hear the loudest sound of thunder imaginable, then he ceased to be in a blink of an eye. How long would it take you to completely recover and figure out what exactly just happened? By then he could be halfway down the street riding like hell.

My other theory is that he killed Torygg and left, then the Empire stepped in and deemed it illegal. Sending General Tullius to enact martial law.

The Empire chose to deem it illegal because it screwed up their puppeteering in Skyrim. Every pro-Empire person in Solitude knew what Ulfric did was completely legal, hence the easy "escape". Nobody was shocked that Ulfric used the Th'um, it was common knowledge he trained with the Greybeards, he also fought in the Great War with many Nords. And stop saying that the shout killed him, it's impossible. He was shouted to the ground then stabbed.

That is a bold claim, calling the Empire intolerant of other cultures, traditions and religions is simply false. Especially since the Empire preserved many traditions in the provinces and freedom of religion was an Imperial concept. There are those within the Empire who are ignorant of other cultures, but never intolerant.

All that comes out of Tullius' mouth is intolerant bullpl*** about Nords and their culture, he speaks to his second in command like pl*** in that regard.

Who are you kidding... read up on Skyrim history. So called "puppet rulers" have actually in the past annexed several fiefdoms that once belonged directly to the Emperor. The Nords were also attacking House Redoran and even Imperial forts during the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire doesn't hand pick the ruler, so why would they start now after six hundred years. Rulers can change opinion, can have heirs of different views. Politics, trade agreements, marriages keep relationships.

There was some Witch queen ruling Whiterun at one point too.

The difference is the Empire is on the verge of destruction, I guess I need to repeat the statement I've made so many times that your clutching at straws. 100-200 years of ignorance to the build up of the Great War has cost you. (Don't deny the ignorance either, you agreed on this very thing in past posts)

... No. The Legion stepped in when Skyrim's governance broke down. Not once has the Empire enacted Martial Law anytime a ruler has issues with Imperial interests. Diplomacy is used more often than not.

The same could just be said of Ulfric... That he can very well use his Stormcloaks and Galmar to force out anyone who disagrees with his views.

Skyrim's Government hasn't broke down, their was succession by Skyrim tradition, but it effects the Empire's strength in Tamriel so you intervine. If having a puppet King wasn't in your interests then you'd back off and allow Skyrim's traditions to stay and Ulfric would be High King by right.

What Moot gave Ulfric the right to be High King? It's his right as Jarl to Fulfill his Office, yet, clearly he has not done so, not for Windhelm at least. How do you figure he has the right to be High King?

He deserves only as much as his record has demonstrated. To say otherwise is to be in denial.

Also, please consider actually looking at some of the Elder Scrolls Novels and book written which cover the timeframe since Oblivion. DrunkenMage is right, the Mede's actually did a bang-up job and turned things around for the Empire.

Lewsean, I bet if I ran you down with my car on your way to the store today you wouldn't see that coming either now would you?

 

[Lewsean]

Shock. If the duel took place in the courtyard, and Ulfric used the Thu'um to either kill him or stab him after. He could have easily fled and escape with the aid of the Gate Guard. Seeing the voice first hand would have a huge surprise factor. No Nord has seen it in over six hundred years or more, unless a Greybeard.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone watching it unfold. One moment Torygg was there, the next you hear the loudest sound of thunder imaginable, then he ceased to be in a blink of an eye. How long would it take you to completely recover and figure out what exactly just happened? By then he could be halfway down the street riding like hell.

My other theory is that he killed Torygg and left, then the Empire stepped in and deemed it illegal. Sending General Tullius to enact martial law.

The Empire chose to deem it illegal because it screwed up their puppeteering in Skyrim. Every pro-Empire person in Solitude knew what Ulfric did was completely legal, hence the easy "escape". Nobody was shocked that Ulfric used the Th'um, it was common knowledge he trained with the Greybeards, he also fought in the Great War with many Nords. And stop saying that the shout killed him, it's impossible. He was shouted to the ground then stabbed.

That is a bold claim, calling the Empire intolerant of other cultures, traditions and religions is simply false. Especially since the Empire preserved many traditions in the provinces and freedom of religion was an Imperial concept. There are those within the Empire who are ignorant of other cultures, but never intolerant.

All that comes out of Tullius' mouth is intolerant bullpl*** about Nords and their culture, he speaks to his second in command like pl*** in that regard.

Who are you kidding... read up on Skyrim history. So called "puppet rulers" have actually in the past annexed several fiefdoms that once belonged directly to the Emperor. The Nords were also attacking House Redoran and even Imperial forts during the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire doesn't hand pick the ruler, so why would they start now after six hundred years. Rulers can change opinion, can have heirs of different views. Politics, trade agreements, marriages keep relationships.

There was some Witch queen ruling Whiterun at one point too.

The difference is the Empire is on the verge of destruction, I guess I need to repeat the statement I've made so many times that your clutching at straws. 100-200 years of ignorance to the build up of the Great War has cost you. (Don't deny the ignorance either, you agreed on this very thing in past posts)

... No. The Legion stepped in when Skyrim's governance broke down. Not once has the Empire enacted Martial Law anytime a ruler has issues with Imperial interests. Diplomacy is used more often than not.

The same could just be said of Ulfric... That he can very well use his Stormcloaks and Galmar to force out anyone who disagrees with his views.

Skyrim's Government hasn't broke down, their was succession by Skyrim tradition, but it effects the Empire's strength in Tamriel so you intervine. If having a puppet King wasn't in your interests then you'd back off and allow Skyrim's traditions to stay and Ulfric would be High King by right.

What Moot gave Ulfric the right to be High King? It's his right as Jarl to Fulfill his Office, yet, clearly he has not done so, not for Windhelm at least. How do you figure he has the right to be High King?

He deserves only as much as his record has demonstrated. To say otherwise is to be in denial.

Also, please consider actually looking at some of the Elder Scrolls Novels and book written which cover the timeframe since Oblivion. DrunkenMage is right, the Mede's actually did a bang-up job and turned things around for the Empire.

Lewsean, I bet if I ran you down with my car on your way to the store today you wouldn't see that coming either now would you?

Oh stop it, you've yet to provide one valid statement that proves he doesn't take his Jarl duties seriously lol. You're funny, in fact all Imperial supporters are funny, you guys don't argue anything unless Drunkenmage is doing so, cute.

 

[LegateFasendil]

The Empire chose to deem it illegal because it screwed up their puppeteering in Skyrim. Every pro-Empire person in Solitude knew what Ulfric did was completely legal, hence the easy "escape". Nobody was shocked that Ulfric used the Th'um, it was common knowledge he trained with the Greybeards, he also fought in the Great War with many Nords. And stop saying that the shout killed him, it's impossible. He was shouted to the ground then stabbed.


All that comes out of Tullius' mouth is intolerant bullpl*** about Nords and their culture, he speaks to his second in command like pl*** in that regard.



The difference is the Empire is on the verge of destruction, I guess I need to repeat the statement I've made so many times that your clutching at straws. 100-200 years of ignorance to the build up of the Great War has cost you. (Don't deny the ignorance either, you agreed on this very thing in past posts)


Skyrim's Government hasn't broke down, their was succession by Skyrim tradition, but it effects the Empire's strength in Tamriel so you intervine. If having a puppet King wasn't in your interests then you'd back off and allow Skyrim's traditions to stay and Ulfric would be High King by right.

What Moot gave Ulfric the right to be High King? It's his right as Jarl to Fulfill his Office, yet, clearly he has not done so, not for Windhelm at least. How do you figure he has the right to be High King?

He deserves only as much as his record has demonstrated. To say otherwise is to be in denial.

Also, please consider actually looking at some of the Elder Scrolls Novels and book written which cover the timeframe since Oblivion. DrunkenMage is right, the Mede's actually did a bang-up job and turned things around for the Empire.

Lewsean, I bet if I ran you down with my car on your way to the store today you wouldn't see that coming either now would you?

Oh stop it, you've yet to provide one valid statement that proves he doesn't take his Jarl duties seriously lol. You're funny, in fact all Imperial supporters are funny, you guys don't argue anything unless Drunkenmage is doing so, cute.

Well, actually he and I used to disagree on the Emperor Mede part. The truth is closer to point that I'm here for the cause. Make no mistake, I don't have many friends in general, not on here or otherwise. Neither am I necessarily disagreeing with everything Stormcloak.

I'm of the Corporate mindset, yet even I've had to rebel before. However, that seemed to me more like what Hammerfell had done, as Cyrus and friends made the Empire understand all along that Hammerfell wasn't in bed with the Empire, it was more of a partnership between equals.

Skyrim evolved into the Empire differently, as followers of Emp Septim.

My feelings on this subject are if Moot is tradition, a bi-artisan Moot should have convened made up of pro-Imperial and pro-Stormcloak Jarls to sit down around a kitchen table and work they pl*ps out.

Ulfric prevented this from happening ~ Not the Empire. So no sir. I will never join the Stormcloaks for this very reason alone.

 

[ExoiD]

I really don't like this "variable" in the game. Imperials are definitively the best choice, BUT, they're "allied" to the Thalmor because they lost the Great War. Think of the Thalmor like a secret conspiracy who wants to turn Nirn into a world dominated by the Mer slaving Men and Beast races. By the other hand, Stormcloaks are racist, (kinda traitors) and.. have you noticed that almost all Stormcloak's guards are womens?

But I personally prefer Imperial because (for now, in this era) they're (the Thalmor) only banishing Talos worship and nothing more. So, it doesn't affect the other people (since Stormcloaks are racist and you see many people (specially merchants) complaining about it).

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire chose to deem it illegal because it screwed up their puppeteering in Skyrim. Every pro-Empire person in Solitude knew what Ulfric did was completely legal, hence the easy "escape". Nobody was shocked that Ulfric used the Th'um, it was common knowledge he trained with the Greybeards, he also fought in the Great War with many Nords. And stop saying that the shout killed him, it's impossible. He was shouted to the ground then stabbed.

Many people were shocked Ulfric used the Thu'um, very few have seen it first hand. The shout could have killed him, Ulfric is the only person who claims his sword finished Torygg. That is a grey area.

The Empire deemed it illegal, because it is illegal by the Empire's standards.

All that comes out of Tullius' mouth is intolerant bullpl*** about Nords and their culture, he speaks to his second in command like pl*** in that regard.

Tullius is dismissing Nord culture, viewing it as nonsense. He's ignorant of it, not intolerant. Which during his time in Skyrim that changes. "Can't say I'll ever get used to the damn cold, or understand these Nords... but I've come to respect them. The harshness of Skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self."

Galmar: "The Jarls are upset. They don't all support you."
Ulfric: "Damn the Jarls."
Galmar: "They demand the Moot."
Ulfric: "And damn the Moot! We should risk letting those milkdrinkers put Thorryg [sic]'s woman on the throne? She'll hand Skyrim over to the elves on a silver plate."

Ulfric is no different to Tullius, but Tullius is wanting the Moot to meet. Ulfric only wants it to meet after it's a foregone conclusion he'll become High King.

Tullius: "Don't you Nords put any stock in your own traditions? I thought the Moot chose the king. We're backing Elisif. When the Moot meets, they'll do the sensible thing."
Rikke: "Not everyone's agreed to the Moot. You've been here long enough to know that Nords aren't always sensible. We follow our hearts."

The difference is the Empire is on the verge of destruction, I guess I need to repeat the statement I've made so many times that your clutching at straws. 100-200 years of ignorance to the build up of the Great War has cost you. (Don't deny the ignorance either, you agreed on this very thing in past posts)

The Empire has been on the verge of destruction several times, yet still it is here. 200 years of ignorance? I certainly will deny the ignorance, which I have not agreed on. The Great War was a surprise, not even the Blades saw it coming. The Thalmor plotted carefully. Go read the TES Novels.

I'm clutching at straws aye, I always thought that was your job.

Skyrim's Government hasn't broke down, their was succession by Skyrim tradition, but it effects the Empire's strength in Tamriel so you intervine. If having a puppet King wasn't in your interests then you'd back off and allow Skyrim's traditions to stay and Ulfric would be High King by right.

Do you even know how Skyrim politics works? I would have suspected a pro Stormcloak to actually pay attention to what Ulfric says... The Moot decides.

There was no succession, Skyrim was divided and fighting. The Moot chooses the High King when there is no heir, not the duel. Ulfric killing Torygg doesn't make him King. It just means a new Moot has to be called.

Here we see clutching at straws, and false claims. A two in one, how lucky for me.

 

[ExoiD]

Ulfric doesn't really "defends" the Nords, what he really wants is to become high king of skyrim and have the full power. Note that he worked with the Thalmor before and helped them to destroy the Empire, to increase the chances of become the High King. But the Thalmer we're able to negotiate with the Empire and the "Civil War" started. Still, joining the Empire would be better because Jarl Elisif the Fair would become the new High Queen.

 

[Lewsean]

The Empire has been on the verge of destruction several times, yet still it is here. 200 years of ignorance? I certainly will deny the ignorance, which I have not agreed on. The Great War was a surprise, not even the Blades saw it coming. The Thalmor plotted carefully. Go read the TES Novels.

I'm clutching at straws aye, I always thought that was your job.

You should go read your own posts before telling me to read Novels, you're contradicting your own arguments.

Tullius is dismissing Nord culture, viewing it as nonsense. He's ignorant of it, not intolerant. Which during his time in Skyrim that changes. "Can't say I'll ever get used to the damn cold, or understand these Nords... but I've come to respect them. The harshness of Skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self."

Galmar: "The Jarls are upset. They don't all support you."
Ulfric: "Damn the Jarls."
Galmar: "They demand the Moot."
Ulfric: "And damn the Moot! We should risk letting those milkdrinkers put Thorryg [sic]'s woman on the throne? She'll hand Skyrim over to the elves on a silver plate."

Ulfric is no different to Tullius, but Tullius is wanting the Moot to meet. Ulfric only wants it to meet after it's a foregone conclusion he'll become High King.

Tullius: "Don't you Nords put any stock in your own traditions? I thought the Moot chose the king. We're backing Elisif. When the Moot meets, they'll do the sensible thing."
Rikke: "Not everyone's agreed to the Moot. You've been here long enough to know that Nords aren't always sensible. We follow our hearts."

Of course he does.. The whole point of this war is to get you out of Skyrim, why settle for a moot when the Imperial Jarls will do anything for coin and just give that incompetent fool Elisif the crown?

Many people were shocked Ulfric used the Thu'um, very few have seen it first hand. The shout could have killed him, Ulfric is the only person who claims his sword finished Torygg. That is a grey area.

The Empire deemed it illegal, because it is illegal by the Empire's standards.

Fus'Ro'Dah doesn't kill people... And it certainly doesn't evaporate people like pro-Imperial's claim LOL. The Empire deemed it illegal after the fact, if him challenging Toyrgg was illegal like you claim then it wouldn't have even made it that far, Ulfric would've been arrested/killed. Toyrgg accepted because he knew he had too, if it was illegal, he wouldn't have had too now would he?

Do you even know how Skyrim politics works? I would have suspected a pro Stormcloak to actually pay attention to what Ulfric says... The Moot decides.

There was no succession, Skyrim was divided and fighting. The Moot chooses the High King when there is no heir, not the duel. Ulfric killing Torygg doesn't make him King. It just means a new Moot has to be called.

Here we see clutching at straws, and false claims. A two in one, how lucky for me.

Rich coming from the guy who quotes half paragraphs and conviently ignores topics that make the Empire look bad. Ulfric has a right to rule by principal, a High King of the Nord's own making, who swept away the previous "king" with ease, not a High Queen who's controlled by an ignorant short arsed fool in Castle Dour who's only interests are what's best for you guys in Cyrodill. Ulfric wants what's best for Skyrim, not what serves the Emperor's interests.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You should go read your own posts before telling me to read Novels, you're contradicting your own arguments.

I've contradicted many of my own arguments over time, comes with further understanding of the knowledge. Perhaps you should show me this post, you're keen on mentioning.

Of course he does.. The whole point of this war is to get you out of Skyrim, why settle for a moot when the Imperial Jarls will do anything for coin and just give that incompetent fool Elisif the crown?

The whole point of the war is so Ulfric can become High King. But the official reason is the Stormcloaks feel their Nord way of life is at risk.

Fus'Ro'Dah doesn't kill people... And it certainly doesn't evaporate people like pro-Imperial's claim LOL.

Gameplay it doesn't, unless you have Dragonborn DLC. Lore wise the Thu'um can kill instantly, it can blast open fortified gates. So 'LOL' go learn about the Thu'um son.

The Empire deemed it illegal after the fact, if him challenging Toyrgg was illegal like you claim then it wouldn't have even made it that far, Ulfric would've been arrested/killed. Toyrgg accepted because he knew he had too, if it was illegal, he wouldn't have had too now would he?

Illegal under the Empire, legal under Skyrim traditional politics. Which is why Ulfric most likely used it, good way to make their culture conflict with the Empire's.

Rich coming from the guy who quotes half paragraphs and conviently ignores topics that make the Empire look bad.

I have noticed you keep trying to bring up the standard of my arguments quite a few times. This is very amusing coming from you. You lost all credibility to talk down my posts after that landmass = population bullplops. Or the "If Bethesda never cut this, I'd be correct!"

So show the full paragraphs and the ignored topics.

Ulfric has a right to rule by principal, a High King of the Nord's own making, who swept away the previous "king" with ease, not a High Queen who's controlled by an ignorant short arsed fool in Castle Dour who's only interests are what's best for you guys in Cyrodill.

Nords have chosen their own High King the same way for the last 4000 years, their method of governing hasn't changed since the Pact of Chieftains and predates all three Imperial Empires. Elisif isn't promised to be High Queen, she only has claim, same as the other Jarls. The Imperials don't decide who becomes King/Queen. The Nords do when there is a break in the line.

Ulfric wants what's best for Skyrim, not what serves the Emperor's interests.

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric Stormcloak

 

[Raijin]

You're preaching to the choir here, I have often argued the Thu'um isn't everything. It is your Stormcloak buddies who consider it the ultimate thing that nothing can stop.

I've never seen or heard any of my "Stormcloak" buddies brag about the Thu'um being the ultimate power that can't be stopped. It is indeed highly praised to be able to astablish such skill as there are some who try to gain the power, but can't. For an example Balgruuf mentions in his dialogue that he attempted to train with the Greybreads to learn the Thu'um, but was unsuccessful whereas Ulfric succeeded.

Shock. If the duel took place in the courtyard, and Ulfric used the Thu'um to either kill him or stab him after. He could have easily fled and escape with the aid of the Gate Guard. Seeing the voice first hand would have a huge surprise factor. No Nord has seen it in over six hundred years or more, unless a Greybeard.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone watching it unfold. One moment Torygg was there, the next you hear the loudest sound of thunder imaginable, then he ceased to be in a blink of an eye. How long would it take you to completely recover and figure out what exactly just happened? By then he could be halfway down the street riding like hell.

My other theory is that he killed Torygg and left, then the Empire stepped in and deemed it illegal. Sending General Tullius to enact martial law.

The sound of the Thu'um is very controversial in that respects. The sound of it from the trailer sounds a lot different comparing to what is presented to us in the game... so which is the truth? Also the Guards and Soldiers are suppose to be trained to deal with difficult task, and to overcome the shell shock effect. Their jobs is to protect the High king at all cost... And to arrest criminals.... not to stare at them like a frighten sheep, and letting the criminal go free. If this is the truth then their should be a lot more guards waiting in line to get their heads cut off for failing to capture Ulfric.

That is a bold claim, calling the Empire intolerant of other cultures, traditions and religions is simply false. Especially since the Empire preserved many traditions in the provinces and freedom of religion was an Imperial concept. There are those within the Empire who are ignorant of other cultures, but never intolerant.

It is an honest claim. They're are intolerant of other peoples culture, traditions and religions. Untold Nords died protecting the Empire against the Aldmeri Dominion during the Great war, and for what? For the Empire to finally outlaw Talos worship. When someone practices their traditions they're branded as a criminal. Torygg accepted the duel because it was part of his Nordic traditions to do so, and as a result the intolerant Empire stood up, and called Ulfric a murderer. I don't know about you, my Imperial friend, but that is intolerance!

Yes. The Empire doesn't have a say, the Moot elects the High King/Queen. The Empire does not pick who does and doesn't rule Skyrim. The Moot has the authority when there is no heir. Besides, all the Jarls at the end are loyal to the Empire.

The Nord Jarls decide who rules the land when the royal line has been broken, not Tullius, not Cyrodiil. Tullius is backing Elisif's claim, but he can't make her queen.

Skyrim is the province of the Empire. For as long as it is the Empire has the first say so in the matters. The Empire is like the Federal government to Skyrim. Why else do you think Ulfric wanted Skyrim to be independent? To steer away from the Empire and their laws?

... No. The Legion stepped in when Skyrim's governance broke down. Not once has the Empire enacted Martial Law anytime a ruler has issues with Imperial interests. Diplomacy is used more often than not.

The same could just be said of Ulfric... That he can very well use his Stormcloaks and Galmar to force out anyone who disagrees with his views.

The problem is that Skyrim's Government didn't break down. The Nordic tradition that the Empire is so intolerant of was used, and Skyrim was undergoing a transition that clearly didn't favor the Empire one bit, and so they took action to prevent new change from happening.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I've never seen or heard any of my "Stormcloak" buddies brag about the Thu'um being the ultimate power that can't be stopped. It is indeed highly praised to be able to astablish such skill as there are some who try to gain the power, but can't. For an example Balgruuf mentions in his dialogue that he attempted to train with the Greybreads to learn the Thu'um, but was unsuccessful whereas Ulfric succeeded.

Few of them try to claim as such, therefor Ulfric can't be killed easily etc etc. Where does Balgruuf mention this?

The sound of the Thu'um is very controversial in that respects. The sound of it from the trailer sounds a lot different comparing to what is presented to us in the game... so which is the truth? Also the Guards and Soldiers are suppose to be trained to deal with difficult task, and to overcome the shell shock effect. Their jobs is to protect the High king at all cost... And to arrest criminals.... not to stare at them like a frighten sheep, and letting the criminal go free. If this is the truth then their should be a lot more guards waiting in line to get their heads cut off for failing to capture Ulfric.

Soldiers and guards are normal citizens, they're just ordinary people who signed up for pay, for duty, for honor etc. Who knows what happened exactly, it isn't impossible for Ulfric to escape. The personal protection of a Jarl and Thane in Skyrim is the duty of a Housecarl.

It is an honest claim. They're are intolerant of other peoples culture, traditions and religions.

How? The Empire spends money publishing books on, expeditions into various ruins and cultures.

Untold Nords died protecting the Empire against the Aldmeri Dominion during the Great war, and for what? For the Empire to finally outlaw Talos worship.

A God in the Imperial pantheon. Talos isn't this Nord only religious figure, his worship was extremely high in Cyrodiil. His face is on every single coin...

When someone practices their traditions they're branded as a criminal. Torygg accepted the duel because it was part of his Nordic traditions to do so

Many practices and traditions stopped, many Nords stopped their own traditions after wars, certain events etc. Torygg accepted the duel because it was, Nordic tradition, yes. It was part of the politics of Skyrim.

But, it was also something the Empire had to respond to. This hasn't happened since the "Bad old days" which most likely refers to around War of Succession time. It isn't surprising it would conflict with Imperial law, you're looking at something that dates back to the First Empire of the Nords.

and as a result the intolerant Empire stood up, and called Ulfric a murderer. I don't know about you, my Imperial friend, but that is intolerance!

The Legion stepped in because they're doing their job, they could not ignore the killing of High King Torygg. Doesn't matter what circumstances, he was killed by Ulfric who then declared war on any Jarl who opposed him.

That isn't intolerance, that is the Empire being an Empire. I don't understand why you Stormcloaks find it so amazingly oppressive that the Empire would stand up and get involved when a man seeks to tear it apart through rebellion.

Skyrim is the province of the Empire. For as long as it is the Empire has the first say so in the matters.

They don't have first say, or any say. The Moot has authority, not Cyrodiil. The Empire has never once decided who should be High King in Skyrim. For the last four thousand years it has been the same. How does the Empire have first say in something that hasn't changed since a time that predates all Imperial Empires?

The Empire is like the Federal government to Skyrim. Why else do you think Ulfric wanted Skyrim to be independent? To steer away from the Empire and their laws?

Ulfric wants to be High King, he seeks to invalidate Skyrim's involvement in the White-Gold Concordat.

Skyrim is in turmoil because the Stormcloaks believe their Nord way of life is at risk, while the Imperials believe Skyrim is a part of the Empire, and must follow its laws and customs.

The problem is that Skyrim's Government didn't break down. The Nordic tradition that the Empire is so intolerant of was used, and Skyrim was undergoing a transition that clearly didn't favor the Empire one bit, and so they took action to prevent new change from happening.

It did break down, the Jarls were at each others throats. The fighting had been going on for years... Once Ulfric killed Torygg, it plunged Skyrim into chaos and the war got even more heated. The Empire could not ignore the vassal of the Emperor being killed.

Skyrim wasn't undergoing transition, or was in the process of making Ulfric High King (Like your other Stormcloak supporters suggest) It was in a state of infighting. You made Skyrim and Tamriel much worse off, you deactivated one of the last remaining towers, you weakened the province with war, racial tension and out of control bandits.

Skyrim is probably screwed.

 

[Raijin]

Few of them try to claim as such, therefor Ulfric can't be killed easily etc etc. Where does Balgruuf mention this?

Like I said before I never seen this accusation coming from a Stormcloak. Do you mind pointing me in the right direction? Which NPC had stated this? That Ulfric can't be killed easily because of the tongue talent that he has?

I don't have an exact link to the dialogue, but according to the lore Balgruuf made the pilgrimage to High Hrothgar in his youth. He carried on a rivalry with Ulfric Stormcloak since they both were young. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Balgruuf_the_Greater

Soldiers and guards are normal citizens, they're just ordinary people who signed up for pay, for duty, for honor etc. Who knows what happened exactly, it isn't impossible for Ulfric to escape. The personal protection of a Jarl and Thane in Skyrim is the duty of a Housecarl.

Guards and Soldiers are specialty trained to deal with stressful situation during difficult times. Do you think that anyone can become a Guard or a Soldier? No. To be a guard you need to be courageous and have the ambition to protect your hold at all cost. That is including with your life. Being a guard isn't for the simple folks. They maybe normal citizen, off duty that is. And no. It is nearly impossible for Ulfric to escape when the city is swarming with Guards and Torygg's Soldiers.

How? The Empire spends money publishing books on, expeditions into various ruins and cultures.

I can spend money publishing books on how much I love the Empire, but that doesn't mean that it's true. Their actions speaks for itself... to label Ulfric as a King slayer... a murderer when all Ulfric did was to exercise his right on Nordric traditions to challenge a King whom he thought was doing wrong by Skyrim.

A God in the Imperial pantheon. Talos isn't this Nord only religious figure, his worship was extremely high in Cyrodiil. His face is on every single coin...

Yet the Emperor was quick to outlaw the worship of Talos just to please the Dominion.... just to keep his place on the throne.

FYI: I've purposely shorten this debate up. I don't have the stamina to write up a book, which is what this debate is becoming with repeats,etc.