Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[LegateFasendil]

And how is Ulfric a compassionate leader? He does the same thing that Tullius does, and worse by far is giving Jarl Ballin' a choice of giving the Stormcloaks control of the city with him as a mere figurehead, or the stormcloaks taking it from him and leaving him nothing.

Also, he surrenders, likely knowing that he and his men will be executed anyways, which is not compassionate at all, but sacrificing men for nothing.

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

If this isn't compassionate then I don't know what is.

Tullius is just as guilty if not more for wanting to take over whiterun.

Rikke: "I'm telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun."
Tullius: "He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men."
Rikke: "That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."
Tullius: "It's not a cause. It's a rebellion."
Rikke: "Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun."
Tullius: "Jarl Balgruuf..."
Rikke: "Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim."
Tullius: "Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city."
Rikke: "General."
Tullius: "You people and your damn Jarls."
Rikke: "Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for."
Tullius: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea."
Rikke: "Yes, sir."
Tullius: "You Nords and your bloody sense of honor."
Rikke: "Sir."

Tullius contradicted himself. First he welcomes the idea of Ulfric tasking over whiterun and pillaging his city, and next thing hes doing is instructing his Legate to embellishing a letter to Balgruuf causing him to go in duress, and force him to accept the Empires help.

Borrrrrrring. I've heard his hearty speeches and have had all I can stand of Mr Bleeding Heart Ulfric. Yes, his hair is indeed braided and it looks good on him, ok? No one is disputing this. Gen Tully's hair would not look well braided at all, not even if he wore a wig.

I don't care about taking the High ground here knucklehead. Besides, only High Elves belong on the High Ground anyways. Ye White Knights, ye men of good company and grace are fools, just like the Nords I met in Oblivion. You guys should try a little more shut the hell up and stop to think about what's really going on. If Ulfric is really so tired of war, then why does he keep causing them?

The Empire is like the Dark Knight and the Stormcloaks, the White Knight. And that's fine but in this case the White Knight isn't very smart. Just because you're nobel and you have great expectations doesn't mean you can't be used by the real enemy. Least the Black Knight Empire here knows what's up, they know the score. In either case, that by default puts the Empire ahead because they have no delusions about their situation.

 

[Raijin]

It's a natural response to being under attack by a Dragon that hasn't been seen for thousands of years? Wouldn't the correct response be fleeing to safety or hiding if one cares only for themselves?

Commanding to get the innocent civilians to safety just shows what type of man Tullius is under pressure and when it matters.

He's a Military General, he wasn't trying to weasel himself out of being killed, as the file states 'a mostly hopeless question, but one that must be asked'

He was beaten at that point, majority of his forces destroyed. Every General would ask that question in his position, to secure terms for their men.

But he did try to weasel himself out from being killed. I've already explained this already. I refuse to become a broken record. You can disagree with me, but I have facts that I've already put down on the table indicating this.

Tullius did 1 good thing at the beginning... I give him credit for that.

Really? Do you honestly see that happening? Allies with the Empire, now that is funny.

It took the near end of the world to agree to a temporary truce. Ulfric is going to sign treaties with the Empire now? There is a lot of dialogue from Ulfric that would say otherwise to any sort of deal with the Imperials.

The Stormcloaks are Anti-Empire, they're not willing to talk to Imperials. It took the threat of Alduin for a temporary truce. Neither side is willing to meet each other or speak peace at this point in time.

What kind of message does the Empire send, if they reward those who threaten their authority? Imagine all the Warlords and bandits, who then decide "You know what, I want a little kingdom too."



Ulfric doesn't care what the Empire says.

"As always, the Empire's fine words are worth nothing!"

So Tullius has to plead with Ulfric?

Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."
Ulfric: "It's a little more than a rebellion, don't you think?"
Galmar: "Heh."

Looks like they ignored that 'valuable information'.

Ulfric is not just a Solider but also a politician. Yes I believe that he can come to an agreement with the Empire if he was given an opportunity.

Silver-Bloods use Forsworn assassins, and kill people in the streets. Right under the Jarl's nose. That and they enslave populations.

Silver-Bloods and Black-Briars are just as bad as each other.

Maven has far more connections than the Silver-bloods. She not only has the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves guild under her wing, but also the Empire and now shes cozening up to the Thalmor. That is an extra connection she has. It's safe to say that shes untouchable, well not without dire consequences.

Silver-Bloods barely has any connections at all.

 

[Jeremius]

And how is Ulfric a compassionate leader? He does the same thing that Tullius does, and worse by far is giving Jarl Ballin' a choice of giving the Stormcloaks control of the city with him as a mere figurehead, or the stormcloaks taking it from him and leaving him nothing.

Also, he surrenders, likely knowing that he and his men will be executed anyways, which is not compassionate at all, but sacrificing men for nothing.

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

If this isn't compassionate then I don't know what is.

Tullius is just as guilty if not more for wanting to take over whiterun.

Rikke: "I'm telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun."
Tullius: "He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men."
Rikke: "That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."
Tullius: "It's not a cause. It's a rebellion."
Rikke: "Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun."
Tullius: "Jarl Balgruuf..."
Rikke: "Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim."
Tullius: "Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city."
Rikke: "General."
Tullius: "You people and your damn Jarls."
Rikke: "Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for."
Tullius: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea."
Rikke: "Yes, sir."
Tullius: "You Nords and your bloody sense of honor."
Rikke: "Sir."

Tullius contradicted himself. First he welcomes the idea of Ulfric tasking over whiterun and pillaging his city, and next thing hes doing is instructing his Legate to embellishing a letter to Balgruuf causing him to go in duress, and force him to accept the Empires help.

It does not matter why he is fighting. He DOES the SAME THING Tullius does in the war, which is send out soldiers who die for him. he makes tactical decisions just like Tullius that gets men killed. This is the reality of war, he puts away his compassion to make military decisions. And he forces Balgruff to make a decision under duress. The war is the same no matter how you slice it.

 

[DrunkenMage]

But he did try to weasel himself out from being killed.

No he didn't. He didn't beg and he certainly didn't try weasel himself out of being killed.

I've already explained this already.

How? Saying he became lucid and forceful? Do you know even know what that means?

He was warning the Stormcloaks, not trying to save his skin. He was warning them that the Thalmor are behind it all.

I refuse to become a broken record.

You've been that for a long time. Now you're just throwing out whatever, without anything to back it up.

You can disagree with me, but I have facts that I've already put down on the table indicating this.

What facts? Your misinterpretation and biased observation?

Tullius did 1 good thing at the beginning... I give him credit for that.

Yeah and notice how Ulfric was hiding in the tower.

Ulfric is not just a Solider but also a politician. Yes I believe that he can come to an agreement with the Empire if he was given an opportunity.

Except his power comes from all the supporters who hate the Empire. Are they going to follow a man who makes deals and treaties like Imperials and elves?

Why would Ulfric come to this agreement? There is still the Moot and not all the Jarls back Ulfric, and he won't go for peace. So Ulfric would still have to fight the other Holds to become High King.

How much support would he lose in his alliance and treaty with the Empire? Silver-Bloods hate the Empire, they won't follow a weak man who makes deals. Dawnstar? Skald hates the Empire with a passion, why would he continue to supply soldiers to a man who sold out, had to make deals to become King?

"I consider even talking to the Empire a generous gesture"

Yeah, that is most certainly a person who will make alliances with the Empire, sign agreements where the Empire 'gives' him the throne. I highly doubt Ulfric will accept any terms other than the unconditional surrender of Tullius and the removal of Legion forces. He would never make deals to become High King, so I don't even know why you bother trying to make it out that Ulfric is a diplomatic reasonable fellow.

Tullius sums Ulfric up pretty good. "You always were a fool, Ulfric. You're no better at diplomacy than you are on the battlefield."

Maven has far more connections than the Silver-bloods. She not only has the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves guild under her wing, but also the Empire and now shes cozening up to the Thalmor. That is an extra connection she has. It's safe to say that shes untouchable, well not without dire consequences.

Silver-Bloods barely has any connections at all.

Silver-Bloods have connections to the Stormcloaks, they're the bank of Skyrim. They have more wealth than Maven, and majority of nobles put together.

They own nearly everything in the Reach, that is an entire Hold. Maven owns three buildings.

The Dark Brotherhood have no loyalty, they kill for any who perform the ritual.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

And then he said: "Fine, if he won't accept Imperial Authority let Ulfric Ravish his city" Wow, What a nice caring and all around considerate guy.

What is more important in a Civil War: Being a noble soul and a weak leader who can't make the hard decisions because compassion and care limits the ability to actually see the bigger picture, or crushing the rebellion no matter the circumstances? Ulfric is essentially the same way, he sends soldiers to die for him as well, he does not care about his people because of his war. He does not deserve to lead either.

He does care about his people, He was Very reluctant to send his troops into Whiterun, Galmar wanted it done and he convinced Ulfric:
Ulfric: "You were right Galmar."
Galmar: "Again?"
Ulfric: "I'm in no mood to joke."
Galmar: "Give the word, my lord, and Whiterun is yours."
Ulfric: "Whiterun is only a means to an end."
Galmar: "I've toured our camps. We're ready, Ulfric... Whenever you are."
Ulfric: "Is any man ever ready to give the order that will mean the deaths of many."
Galmar: "No. But neither is every man able to give that order when he must. But you are that man, Ulfric. You've been that man before, and you'll be him again. And these men and women - they call themselves Stormcloaks because they believe in you... They're the meanest, toughest sons of bitches Skyrim has to offer. And they want this. They want this as much as you do. Perhaps they want it more."
Ulfric: "You're certain we're ready? Whiterun's army will no doubt be bolstered with Legionnares [sic]. And those walls around Whiterun are old, but they still stand."
Galmar: "We're ready. And I might be old myself, but I'll kick those damn walls down with my bare feet! - if you would only ask me to do it!"
Ulfric: "And I'm sure you could do it, too. Alright. This is it."
Galmar: "Yes!"
Ulfric: "Send the word. "A new day is dawning and the sun rises over Whiterun.""
Galmar: "Aye, and the sons of Skyrim will greet that dawn teeth and swords flashing."
Ulfric: "So it begins."

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Silver-Bloods use Forsworn assassins, and kill people in the streets. Right under the Jarl's nose. That and they enslave populations.

Silver-Bloods and Black-Briars are just as bad as each other.

"They enslave Populations" You mean put captured Forsworn to work in the mines

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Desperate times. Maven is fair with you as long as you stay out of her way.

Bull plops.

She has a business to run and business is business. Maven would prob make a very good Jarl, as people would learn to respect her very quickly and the city would benefit from her business experience.

More like a mafia

I hate to say this however the city would be safer from the Thalmor and Stormcloaks with her than without her. She does not mess around with people and again, this is what the Empire needs. The good thing about Maven is she knows how to win a war.

She knows how to run a cutthroat business, not how to win a war.

She may be evil but sometimes to defeat one evil, it takes a different kind of evil. Ever gone all Maven Blackbriar on somebody before?

She's always Evil

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Right now I'm laughing so hard at this post I can barely sit in my chair.

You're funny dude. This reminds me of I think exorcism, where someone makes a comment about the Devil mixing lies with truth so it's easier to swallow.

And this post is a fine example of such.

Furthermore, anyone out there with an iq of 7.5 can see how Gen Tully basically had ENDED THE WAR at the start of the game.

Or rather made it worse. Think about it, Denying a Nord Hero his right to speak and then chopping his head off with no trial? Yeah, I bet the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim will take that with a grain of Salt.

All for show. Fact is between killing Toygg and denying the moot Ulfric brought down Skyrim's civilian gov and the Empire was *forced* to declare martial law.

Summary executions are permissible under martial law. So no, I don't feel sorry for Ulfric.

You think the Nords that fought and bled for Independence care about any of that?

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

lol Why you being so snippy Raijin? You're preaching to the choir here. What... you don't think Ulfric is NOTHING but power and respects those who have it... like the Thalmor.

How's Gen Tully a warmonger? He let Whiterun choose whether or not to accept Imperial assistance and even then with conditions. Think Ulfric would have allowed such a thing?

Ulfric is the warmonger, he is the one who is forcing everyone to decide and he is the one who has refused a peaceful resolution to the war.

Seriously, stop preaching hate and things that are second to the fact.

And then he said: "Fine, if he won't accept Imperial Authority let Ulfric Ravish his city" Wow, What a nice caring and all around considerate guy.

Oh I never said he wasn't a bastard. But Sol Ty from BSG was the same way. I don't think his personality should even be a factor, he's hardened from experience and not just anyone can be an Imperial General.

Sure, I agree, just don't make Ulfric look like the Heart of All Things Evil when the Imperial General does the same, exact, thing.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Are you really defending that, that, Matriarch of tyranny and all things evil? Well besides the point that the Silver Bloods send their thugs after you, Maven has you killed, under the Jarl's nose if you even cross her, and its not always by Black Sacrament, oh no, she can make it much much worse, so bad that it make's the Dark Brotherhood look like Saints. Keep that in Mind please.

I'm not tring to defend that hag, I was originally trying to point at the fact that both the Stormcloaks and the Empire have evil people on their side. The Silver-Bloods too can make you suffer to the point where death would seem a mercy, that's what they have their friggin' thugs for, just like Maven has hers. If they kill you at all, chances are you'll spend the rest of your ife in Cidhna Mine.
These are two powerful families and equally as selfish. Though to be honest, in the end the Blackbriars would take the upper hand if it ever came to fighting between them.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

I'm not tring to defend that hag, I was originally trying to point at the fact that both the Stormcloaks and the Empire have evil people on their side. The Silver-Bloods too can make you suffer to the point where death would seem a mercy, that's what they have their friggin' thugs for, just like Maven has hers. If they kill you at all, chances are you'll spend the rest of your ife in Cidhna Mine.
These are two powerful families and equally as selfish. Though to be honest, in the end the Blackbriars would take the upper hand if it ever came to fighting between them.

Oh sure, I agree then. For a second there I thought you were defending Michael Corleone, I mean, Maven Black-Briar.

 

[LegateFasendil]

And then he said: "Fine, if he won't accept Imperial Authority let Ulfric Ravish his city" Wow, What a nice caring and all around considerate guy.

Oh I never said he wasn't a bastard. But Sol Ty from BSG was the same way. I don't think his personality should even be a factor, he's hardened from experience and not just anyone can be an Imperial General.

Sure, I agree, just don't make Ulfric look like the Heart of All Things Evil when the Imperial General does the same, exact, thing.

I wouldn't go so far to say Ulfric is evil. Alot of this discussion is about politics and politics sucks everywhere you go.

No, Ulfric is an expression of change. One of probably several I would presume going on right now throughout the Empire. The Nords have gotten a little freedom from the Empire, are suffering to an extent because of the Empire's wonderful laws and some of them are coming out of the wood work with ideas for change. *However* they're not alone, it sounds like the Elder Council has some ideas as well, it's the Emperor holding everyone up, not the Empire.

I'll be honest, I've had to rebel before. Have had to go all Stormcloak on some folks and it was alot of fun. Event went all Maven Blackbriar on this one fuzzy kitten sup of mine and it was glorious. Watching her having to sit there and listen to me for a change was one of the greatest moments in my life. XD

The thing is though... the catalyst for freedom... was a desire for freedom itself. I was not assisted, funded or encouraged by anyone else really to fight for my freedom. And we know the Thalmor want the Empire destroyed, so maybe in this case freedom is a bad thing.

 

[Dradin]

I'm not tring to defend that hag, I was originally trying to point at the fact that both the Stormcloaks and the Empire have evil people on their side. The Silver-Bloods too can make you suffer to the point where death would seem a mercy, that's what they have their friggin' thugs for, just like Maven has hers. If they kill you at all, chances are you'll spend the rest of your ife in Cidhna Mine.
These are two powerful families and equally as selfish. Though to be honest, in the end the Blackbriars would take the upper hand if it ever came to fighting between them.

The Silver Bloods hold a larger illusion of power than most realize. They are a formidable force however the idea that they hold the Forsworn as slaves is a foolish one, that comes to haunt them in "The Forsworn Conspiracy".

The sad truth is that the Forsworn lacks any leadership besides what little Madanach provides. Assuming he is freed from Cidnha Mine, we fail to see a united Reach.

We do see two dead Silver-Bloods though.

However one could argue that the Silver-Bloods are the richest faction in Skyrim.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Or rather made it worse. Think about it, Denying a Nord Hero his right to speak and then chopping his head off with no trial? Yeah, I bet the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim will take that with a grain of Salt.

All for show. Fact is between killing Toygg and denying the moot Ulfric brought down Skyrim's civilian gov and the Empire was *forced* to declare martial law.

Summary executions are permissible under martial law. So no, I don't feel sorry for Ulfric.

You think the Nords that fought and bled for Independence care about any of that?

The fact they don't care about any of that is just as disturbing as having the Gov ban your rights to Religion.

Had Ulfric went about this differently, that would have been one thing. Maybe talk to his High King about it, call another Moot to discuss it and then if he still hit dead ends ---> Go straight to Civil War.

Instead, he went about it the wrong way.

 

[Raijin]

It does not matter why he is fighting. He DOES the SAME THING Tullius does in the war, which is send out soldiers who die for him. he makes tactical decisions just like Tullius that gets men killed. This is the reality of war, he puts away his compassion to make military decisions. And he forces Balgruff to make a decision under duress. The war is the same no matter how you slice it.

It does matter, and no. It isn't the same. Tullius had information that the Thalmor was behind this, and still acted out on it. Didn't even try to reason with the Stormcloaks.

"The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

Do I blame Tullius for sending his men to die knowing that the Thalmor was behind this? Shocking enough, no. Tullius was doing what any other obedient puppy would do...

"The Thalmor invite me here to remind everyone that they can tell the Empire what to do." - General Tullius

He couldn't be more right.. especially since he keeps giving what the Thalmor wants

 

[Dradin]

As someone who is dislikes both sides, therefore lacks any bias I feel like I can help address the Thalmor issue.

Both sides are equally at fault in terms of giving the Thalmor power.

Ulfric immediately weakened the Empire in the war of secession. However if you want to trace the true trouble we need to go to the Great War.

By sanctioning Ulfric in the Markarth incident, the Empire created a charismatic figurehead that would ultimately gain enough power to challenge the authority of Imperial Skyrim.

But by both sides insistence on prolonging the war, the only faction gaining from it is the Aldmeri Dominion.

A Stormcloak victory would certainly be undesirable for the Dominion; they state as much.

However Imperial Unity also would prove to be wretched for the Thalmor, although maybe not nearly as poor for Dominion as a Stormcloak would.

Keep in mind I despise both factions and would rather see a strong independent Reach.

 

[LegateFasendil]

As someone who is dislikes both sides, therefore lacks any bias I feel like I can help address the Thalmor issue.

Both sides are equally at fault in terms of giving the Thalmor power.

Ulfric immediately weakened the Empire in the war of secession. However if you want to trace the true trouble we need to go to the Great War.

By sanctioning Ulfric in the Markarth incident, the Empire created a charismatic figurehead that would ultimately gain enough power to challenge the authority of Imperial Skyrim.

But by both sides insistence on prolonging the war, the only faction gaining from it is the Aldmeri Dominion.

A Stormcloak victory would certainly be undesirable for the Dominion; they state as much.

However Imperial Unity also would prove to be wretched for the Thalmor, although maybe not nearly as poor for Dominion as a Stormcloak would.

Keep in mind I despise both factions and would rather see a strong independent Reach.

Incorrect.

"The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim"​

​

"A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed."​

​

​

An Imperial victory is more worse for Thalmor. And I would think the last thing someone would want for a "strong independent Reach" would be for the Stormcloaks to take control of it. Seems like there were alot better off before Ulfric started on them. Also, it was the former Jarl's son <Ingmund> who init the deal with Ulfric, not the Empire.​

 

[Rimfaxe96]

The Silver Bloods hold a larger illusion of power than most realize. They are a formidable force however the idea that they hold the Forsworn as slaves is a foolish one, that comes to haunt them in "The Forsworn Conspiracy".

The sad truth is that the Forsworn lacks any leadership besides what little Madanach provides. Assuming he is freed from Cidnha Mine, we fail to see a united Reach.

We do see two dead Silver-Bloods though.

However one could argue that the Silver-Bloods are the richest faction in Skyrim.

It's their desire for power which is their undoing though. Once the Forsworn are purged from the Reach a good fraction of their power/pressure is gone, and as you said, there's two dead Silver-Bloods already. Of course this is all speculation, but in my opinion a lot of control was built with the Forsworn. Except for financial power I don't see much ambition; they need the Stormcloaks for any further plans.

 

[Raijin]

No he didn't. He didn't beg and he certainly didn't try weasel himself out of being killed.

Last time.... He DID weasel himself out of being killed. What part don't you understand? He finally revealed information to the Sormcloaks to prevent Ulfric and Galmar from killing him. He even suggested surrendering.

How? Saying he became lucid and forceful? Do you know even know what that means?

He was warning the Stormcloaks, not trying to save his skin. He was warning them that the Thalmor are behind it all.

Oh really? Why did he wait this long to warn the Stormcloaks that the Thalmor are behind it all? and I call bullplops. He was too trying to save his own skin. If he wasn't then he wouldn't had delayed such valuable information that could of very well end the civil war, peacefully.

You've been that for a long time. Now you're just throwing out whatever, without anything to back it up.

Come on Drunkenmage. You can't be serious, are you? Do you even read my post or do you read a short portion of it? Because I've been sending out links to the data backing up my claim for a long time now. It seems as you can't seem to accept the facts that seems to disagree with you. Why is that? I firmly believe that we both acknowledge that the information taken from http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr is considered a valid and legitimate source of information.

What facts? Your misinterpretation and biased observation?

Sounds exactly what you do since you clearly reject any valid information that disagrees with you.

Yeah and notice how Ulfric was hiding in the tower.

So what? If you saw a big black dragon wouldn't you want to hide too? Especially being surrounded by people who wants to cut off your head? What point are you trying to pull out here by pointing out that Ulfric was hiding in the tower?

Except his power comes from all the supporters who hate the Empire. Are they going to follow a man who makes deals and treaties like Imperials and elves?

Why would Ulfric come to this agreement? There is still the Moot and not all the Jarls back Ulfric, and he won't go for peace. So Ulfric would still have to fight the other Holds to become High King.

How much support would he lose in his alliance and treaty with the Empire? Silver-Bloods hate the Empire, they won't follow a weak man who makes deals. Dawnstar? Skald hates the Empire with a passion, why would he continue to supply soldiers to a man who sold out, had to make deals to become King?

"I consider even talking to the Empire a generous gesture"

Yeah, that is most certainly a person who will make alliances with the Empire, sign agreements where the Empire 'gives' him the throne. I highly doubt Ulfric will accept any terms other than the unconditional surrender of Tullius and the removal of Legion forces. He would never make deals to become High King, so I don't even know why you bother trying to make it out that Ulfric is a diplomatic reasonable fellow.

Tullius sums Ulfric up pretty good. "You always were a fool, Ulfric. You're no better at diplomacy than you are on the battlefield."

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That is what boils it down to. I find it hard to believe that a man would ignore the fact that his enemy has information that could very well change the track of the civil war. The fact that the true enemy was behind it would do a complete 180. I find it hard to believe that Ulfric would give the Thalmor such gratification despite hating the Empire.

Skald is a douche bag. Not sure why you would bring him up..

Silver-Bloods have connections to the Stormcloaks, they're the bank of Skyrim. They have more wealth than Maven, and majority of nobles put together.

They own nearly everything in the Reach, that is an entire Hold. Maven owns three buildings.

The Dark Brotherhood have no loyalty, they kill for any who perform the ritual.

Are you joking me, are you? The Stormcloaks does not have more wealth than Maven, and Maven more likely have a close business friends with the majority of nobles in Skyrim . Sure the Dark brotherhood have no loyalty... for as long as someone keeps filling their pockets full of coin.

 

[Dradin]

Are you joking me, are you? The Stormcloaks does not have more wealth than Maven, and Maven more likely have a close business friends with the majority of nobles in Skyrim . Sure the Dark brotherhood have no loyalty... for as long as someone keeps filling their pockets full of coin.

Maven has absolutely no connection to the Dark Brotherhood. Check her cellar, there's the Black Sacrament and a note suggesting that the DB has no idea of her performing it.