Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Raijin]

How? Maven even though she's no Jarl practically already runs the city; the Silver-Bloods might not have that much influence on the Jarl, but almost every land, business or property in the Reach is owned/influenced by them.
She has the Thieves Guild in her pocket? The Silver-Bloods will send their thugs if you start any trouble. And anyone capable of doing the Black Sacrament can contact the Dark Brotherhood, so that's no argument either.

How? Go back and reread my previous post. Maven has far more power then the Silver-bloods.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

How? Go back and reread my previous post. Maven has far more power then the Silver-bloods.

It's not about power here, it's about what you use it for.
Maven has ties and influence even in the Empire, but does she use it to enslave or the like? Apparently not:

Maven: "Hemming, have you dispatched that letter I gave you yesterday?"
Hemming: "Yes, and I sent it with our fastest courier and under the cover of night, exactly as you specified."
Maven: "Good. If I need to light a few fires in order to get what we need to defend this place from the Stormcloaks, so be it."
Hemming:"I'm almost certain he'll reach the Imperial City tomorrow, so we should have an answer by the end of the week."

Doesn't matter whether she wants the Stormcloaks gone to secure her own position or not, in the end she's defending Riften and its people against a threat, which is something every capable leader is supposed to do.

So you admit that Tullius knew that the Thalmor was behind this civil war... What does he do? He kept on giving entertainment to his elven masters. He indirectly provided aid by pissing away much resources to deal with the Stormcloak rebellion.

I'm sorry but... are you for real? You've finally gotten to this conclusion and now you blame the Empire for defending its territory? It's not Tullius aiding the Thalmor by wasting resources, it's your sheep-dumb-Ulfric that's forcing these people going to waste and dying like dogs.

"He kept on giving entertainment?" What do you even mean with that? Posting a few soldiers in Skyrim to keep the Thalmor watched is totally different from posting soldiers there to quell a rebellion. In the latter, these soldiers die. They don't die from saying "'Ey, do you even have reason to take this guy with you?"

And on a sidenote; your solution isn't possible because Ulfric's entire cause and thinking is "anti-Empire", because this "new" and oh so evil Empire can't be trusted. He won't allie himself with it, and if he did he'd loose the monkeys who'd followed him until that point because it would be against everything Ulfric stands for - independence from the Empire and everyone else.

 

[Raijin]

It's not about power here, it's about what you use it for.
Maven has ties and influence even in the Empire, but does she use it to enslave or the like? Apparently not:

Maven: "Hemming, have you dispatched that letter I gave you yesterday?"
Hemming: "Yes, and I sent it with our fastest courier and under the cover of night, exactly as you specified."
Maven: "Good. If I need to light a few fires in order to get what we need to defend this place from the Stormcloaks, so be it."
Hemming:"I'm almost certain he'll reach the Imperial City tomorrow, so we should have an answer by the end of the week."

Doesn't matter whether she wants the Stormcloaks gone to secure her own position or not, in the end she's defending Riften and its people against a threat, which is something every capable leader is supposed to do.



I'm sorry but... are you for real? You've finally gotten to this conclusion and now you blame the Empire for defending its territory? It's not Tullius aiding the Thalmor by wasting resources, it's your sheep-dumb-Ulfric that's forcing these people going to waste and dying like dogs.

"He kept on giving entertainment?" What do you even mean with that? Posting a few soldiers in Skyrim to keep the Thalmor watched is totally different from posting soldiers there to quell a rebellion. In the latter, these soldiers die. They don't die from saying "'Ey, do you even have reason to take this guy with you?"

And on a sidenote; your solution isn't possible because Ulfric's entire cause and thinking is "anti-Empire", because this "new" and oh so evil Empire can't be trusted. He won't allie himself with it, and if he did he'd loose the monkeys who'd followed him until that point because it would be against everything Ulfric stands for - independence from the Empire and everyone else.

Maven might not own a mine that she can call a prison, but she does force people to work for others. Again please re read my previous post considering the fact that Maven is NOTHING but power, and she respects those who have it... like the Thalmor.

I don't know how much clear must I have to explain to you, but it has NOTHING to do with defending their territory. It's about giving in to what the Thalmor wants, and General Warmongering Tullius is providing exactly that. You can deny it all you want but you can't deny what is in the data, what Tullius said prior to being killed. He KNEW it. How can you sit there and try to ignore this? Are you that blind to see the truth? Do you not see the flaws of Tullius? I can with Ulfric, but can you with Tullius?

 

[LegateFasendil]

It's not about power here, it's about what you use it for.
Maven has ties and influence even in the Empire, but does she use it to enslave or the like? Apparently not:

Maven: "Hemming, have you dispatched that letter I gave you yesterday?"
Hemming: "Yes, and I sent it with our fastest courier and under the cover of night, exactly as you specified."
Maven: "Good. If I need to light a few fires in order to get what we need to defend this place from the Stormcloaks, so be it."
Hemming:"I'm almost certain he'll reach the Imperial City tomorrow, so we should have an answer by the end of the week."

Doesn't matter whether she wants the Stormcloaks gone to secure her own position or not, in the end she's defending Riften and its people against a threat, which is something every capable leader is supposed to do.



I'm sorry but... are you for real? You've finally gotten to this conclusion and now you blame the Empire for defending its territory? It's not Tullius aiding the Thalmor by wasting resources, it's your sheep-dumb-Ulfric that's forcing these people going to waste and dying like dogs.

"He kept on giving entertainment?" What do you even mean with that? Posting a few soldiers in Skyrim to keep the Thalmor watched is totally different from posting soldiers there to quell a rebellion. In the latter, these soldiers die. They don't die from saying "'Ey, do you even have reason to take this guy with you?"

And on a sidenote; your solution isn't possible because Ulfric's entire cause and thinking is "anti-Empire", because this "new" and oh so evil Empire can't be trusted. He won't allie himself with it, and if he did he'd loose the monkeys who'd followed him until that point because it would be against everything Ulfric stands for - independence from the Empire and everyone else.

Maven might not own a mine that she can call a prison, but she does force people to work for others. Again please re read my previous post considering the fact that Maven is NOTHING but power, and she respects those who have it... like the Thalmor.

I don't know how much clear must I have to explain to you, but it has NOTHING to do with defending their territory. It's about giving in to what the Thalmor wants, and General Warmongering Tullius is providing exactly that. You can deny it all you want but you can't deny what is in the data, what Tullius said prior to being killed. He KNEW it. How can you sit there and try to ignore this? Are you that blind to see the truth? Do you not see the flaws of Tullius? I can with Ulfric, but can you with Tullius?

lol Why you being so snippy Raijin? You're preaching to the choir here. What... you don't think Ulfric is NOTHING but power and respects those who have it... like the Thalmor.

How's Gen Tully a warmonger? He let Whiterun choose whether or not to accept Imperial assistance and even then with conditions. Think Ulfric would have allowed such a thing?

Ulfric is the warmonger, he is the one who is forcing everyone to decide and he is the one who has refused a peaceful resolution to the war.

Seriously, stop preaching hate and things that are second to the fact.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Tullius is a general in a war. The soldiers know what they are in for when they sign on. None of that requires Tullius to be a compassionate soul. If a soldier signs on expecting Tullius, whose only job is to win the Civil War, to be compassionate and concerned for him/her, then they are not worthy of being a soldier.

Just because they signed on doesn't make it right for their General to make piss poor life and death decisions. General Tullius was indirectly aiding the Thalmor by sending his troops to die. He even confessed to it.

I'll remind you again what General Tullius said

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1e18

The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1e16

You realize this is exactly what they wanted.

Right now I'm laughing so hard at this post I can barely sit in my chair.

You're funny dude. This reminds me of I think exorcism, where someone makes a comment about the Devil mixing lies with truth so it's easier to swallow.

And this post is a fine example of such.

Furthermore, anyone out there with an iq of 7.5 can see how Gen Tully basically had ENDED THE WAR at the start of the game.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Maven makes the Silver-Blood family look like generous and kind people.

How? Maven even though she's no Jarl practically already runs the city; the Silver-Bloods might not have that much influence on the Jarl, but almost every land, business or property in the Reach is owned/influenced by them.
She has the Thieves Guild in her pocket? The Silver-Bloods will send their thugs if you start any trouble. And anyone capable of doing the Black Sacrament can contact the Dark Brotherhood, so that's no argument either.

Are you really defending that, that, Matriarch of tyranny and all things evil? Well besides the point that the Silver Bloods send their thugs after you, Maven has you killed, under the Jarl's nose if you even cross her, and its not always by Black Sacrament, oh no, she can make it much much worse, so bad that it make's the Dark Brotherhood look like Saints. Keep that in Mind please.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

It's not about power here, it's about what you use it for.
Maven has ties and influence even in the Empire, but does she use it to enslave or the like? Apparently not:

Maven: "Hemming, have you dispatched that letter I gave you yesterday?"
Hemming: "Yes, and I sent it with our fastest courier and under the cover of night, exactly as you specified."
Maven: "Good. If I need to light a few fires in order to get what we need to defend this place from the Stormcloaks, so be it."
Hemming:"I'm almost certain he'll reach the Imperial City tomorrow, so we should have an answer by the end of the week."

Doesn't matter whether she wants the Stormcloaks gone to secure her own position or not, in the end she's defending Riften and its people against a threat, which is something every capable leader is supposed to do.



I'm sorry but... are you for real? You've finally gotten to this conclusion and now you blame the Empire for defending its territory? It's not Tullius aiding the Thalmor by wasting resources, it's your sheep-dumb-Ulfric that's forcing these people going to waste and dying like dogs.

"He kept on giving entertainment?" What do you even mean with that? Posting a few soldiers in Skyrim to keep the Thalmor watched is totally different from posting soldiers there to quell a rebellion. In the latter, these soldiers die. They don't die from saying "'Ey, do you even have reason to take this guy with you?"

And on a sidenote; your solution isn't possible because Ulfric's entire cause and thinking is "anti-Empire", because this "new" and oh so evil Empire can't be trusted. He won't allie himself with it, and if he did he'd loose the monkeys who'd followed him until that point because it would be against everything Ulfric stands for - independence from the Empire and everyone else.

Maven might not own a mine that she can call a prison, but she does force people to work for others. Again please re read my previous post considering the fact that Maven is NOTHING but power, and she respects those who have it... like the Thalmor.

I don't know how much clear must I have to explain to you, but it has NOTHING to do with defending their territory. It's about giving in to what the Thalmor wants, and General Warmongering Tullius is providing exactly that. You can deny it all you want but you can't deny what is in the data, what Tullius said prior to being killed. He KNEW it. How can you sit there and try to ignore this? Are you that blind to see the truth? Do you not see the flaws of Tullius? I can with Ulfric, but can you with Tullius?

lol Why you being so snippy Raijin? You're preaching to the choir here. What... you don't think Ulfric is NOTHING but power and respects those who have it... like the Thalmor.

How's Gen Tully a warmonger? He let Whiterun choose whether or not to accept Imperial assistance and even then with conditions. Think Ulfric would have allowed such a thing?

Ulfric is the warmonger, he is the one who is forcing everyone to decide and he is the one who has refused a peaceful resolution to the war.

Seriously, stop preaching hate and things that are second to the fact.

And then he said: "Fine, if he won't accept Imperial Authority let Ulfric Ravish his city" Wow, What a nice caring and all around considerate guy.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Right now I'm laughing so hard at this post I can barely sit in my chair.

You're funny dude. This reminds me of I think exorcism, where someone makes a comment about the Devil mixing lies with truth so it's easier to swallow.

And this post is a fine example of such.

Furthermore, anyone out there with an iq of 7.5 can see how Gen Tully basically had ENDED THE WAR at the start of the game.

Or rather made it worse. Think about it, Denying a Nord Hero his right to speak and then chopping his head off with no trial? Yeah, I bet the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim will take that with a grain of Salt.

 

[Jeremius]

And then he said: "Fine, if he won't accept Imperial Authority let Ulfric Ravish his city" Wow, What a nice caring and all around considerate guy.

What is more important in a Civil War: Being a noble soul and a weak leader who can't make the hard decisions because compassion and care limits the ability to actually see the bigger picture, or crushing the rebellion no matter the circumstances? Ulfric is essentially the same way, he sends soldiers to die for him as well, he does not care about his people because of his war. He does not deserve to lead either.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Maven might not own a mine that she can call a prison, but she does force people to work for others. Again please re read my previous post considering the fact that Maven is NOTHING but power, and she respects those who have it... like the Thalmor.

I don't know how much clear must I have to explain to you, but it has NOTHING to do with defending their territory. It's about giving in to what the Thalmor wants, and General Warmongering Tullius is providing exactly that. You can deny it all you want but you can't deny what is in the data, what Tullius said prior to being killed. He KNEW it. How can you sit there and try to ignore this? Are you that blind to see the truth? Do you not see the flaws of Tullius? I can with Ulfric, but can you with Tullius?

lol Why you being so snippy Raijin? You're preaching to the choir here. What... you don't think Ulfric is NOTHING but power and respects those who have it... like the Thalmor.

How's Gen Tully a warmonger? He let Whiterun choose whether or not to accept Imperial assistance and even then with conditions. Think Ulfric would have allowed such a thing?

Ulfric is the warmonger, he is the one who is forcing everyone to decide and he is the one who has refused a peaceful resolution to the war.

Seriously, stop preaching hate and things that are second to the fact.

And then he said: "Fine, if he won't accept Imperial Authority let Ulfric Ravish his city" Wow, What a nice caring and all around considerate guy.

Oh I never said he wasn't a bastard. But Sol Ty from BSG was the same way. I don't think his personality should even be a factor, he's hardened from experience and not just anyone can be an Imperial General.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Right now I'm laughing so hard at this post I can barely sit in my chair.

You're funny dude. This reminds me of I think exorcism, where someone makes a comment about the Devil mixing lies with truth so it's easier to swallow.

And this post is a fine example of such.

Furthermore, anyone out there with an iq of 7.5 can see how Gen Tully basically had ENDED THE WAR at the start of the game.

Or rather made it worse. Think about it, Denying a Nord Hero his right to speak and then chopping his head off with no trial? Yeah, I bet the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim will take that with a grain of Salt.

All for show. Fact is between killing Toygg and denying the moot Ulfric brought down Skyrim's civilian gov and the Empire was *forced* to declare martial law.

Summary executions are permissible under martial law. So no, I don't feel sorry for Ulfric.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Maven makes the Silver-Blood family look like generous and kind people.

How? Maven even though she's no Jarl practically already runs the city; the Silver-Bloods might not have that much influence on the Jarl, but almost every land, business or property in the Reach is owned/influenced by them.
She has the Thieves Guild in her pocket? The Silver-Bloods will send their thugs if you start any trouble. And anyone capable of doing the Black Sacrament can contact the Dark Brotherhood, so that's no argument either.

Are you really defending that, that, Matriarch of tyranny and all things evil? Well besides the point that the Silver Bloods send their thugs after you, Maven has you killed, under the Jarl's nose if you even cross her, and its not always by Black Sacrament, oh no, she can make it much much worse, so bad that it make's the Dark Brotherhood look like Saints. Keep that in Mind please.

Desperate times. Maven is fair with you as long as you stay out of her way. She has a business to run and business is business. Maven would prob make a very good Jarl, as people would learn to respect her very quickly and the city would benefit from her business experience.

I hate to say this however the city would be safer from the Thalmor and Stormcloaks with her than without her. She does not mess around with people and again, this is what the Empire needs. The good thing about Maven is she knows how to win a war.

She may be evil but sometimes to defeat one evil, it takes a different kind of evil. Ever gone all Maven Blackbriar on somebody before?

 

[Jeremius]

Right now I'm laughing so hard at this post I can barely sit in my chair.

You're funny dude. This reminds me of I think exorcism, where someone makes a comment about the Devil mixing lies with truth so it's easier to swallow.

And this post is a fine example of such.

Furthermore, anyone out there with an iq of 7.5 can see how Gen Tully basically had ENDED THE WAR at the start of the game.

Or rather made it worse. Think about it, Denying a Nord Hero his right to speak and then chopping his head off with no trial? Yeah, I bet the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim will take that with a grain of Salt.

All for show. Fact is between killing Toygg and denying the moot Ulfric brought down Skyrim's civilian gov and the Empire was *forced* to declare martial law.

Summary executions are permissible under martial law. So no, I don't feel sorry for Ulfric.

Here is the thing about the law: When it comes to treason or not, it does not matter what your motivation is. Rebels think they are doing the right thing, but governments always call them traitors, simply because the government sees it that way.

 

[Raijin]

lol Why you being so snippy Raijin? You're preaching to the choir here. What... you don't think Ulfric is NOTHING but power and respects those who have it... like the Thalmor.

How's Gen Tully a warmonger? He let Whiterun choose whether or not to accept Imperial assistance and even then with conditions. Think Ulfric would have allowed such a thing?

Ulfric is the warmonger, he is the one who is forcing everyone to decide and he is the one who has refused a peaceful resolution to the war.

Seriously, stop preaching hate and things that are second to the fact.

I'm getting snippy here because I'm having an allergic reaction from stupidity. You guys are so closed minded that I find it quite difficult to have a decent civil debate with you guys considering the fact that you fail to recognized the faults that General Tullius has. The fact that I've provided you hardcore evidence backing up my claim that General Tullius is a warmonger by giving you links to actual data doesn't seem to click in your head. It's always turns back to Ulfric ignoring the fact that I'm right. I know it's hard for you to acknowledge this but trust me. I'm right about this.

 

[Raijin]

Are you really defending that, that, Matriarch of tyranny and all things evil? Well besides the point that the Silver Bloods send their thugs after you, Maven has you killed, under the Jarl's nose if you even cross her, and its not always by Black Sacrament, oh no, she can make it much much worse, so bad that it make's the Dark Brotherhood look like Saints. Keep that in Mind please.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000b8816
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00065aed

 

[Jeremius]

lol Why you being so snippy Raijin? You're preaching to the choir here. What... you don't think Ulfric is NOTHING but power and respects those who have it... like the Thalmor.

How's Gen Tully a warmonger? He let Whiterun choose whether or not to accept Imperial assistance and even then with conditions. Think Ulfric would have allowed such a thing?

Ulfric is the warmonger, he is the one who is forcing everyone to decide and he is the one who has refused a peaceful resolution to the war.

Seriously, stop preaching hate and things that are second to the fact.

I'm getting snippy here because I'm having an allergic reaction from stupidity. You guys are so closed minded that I find it quite difficult to have a decent civil debate with you guys considering the fact that you fail to recognized the faults that General Tullius has. The fact that I've provided you hardcore evidence backing up my claim that General Tullius is a warmonger by giving you links to actual data doesn't seem to click in your head. It's always turns back to Ulfric ignoring the fact that I'm right. I know it's hard for you to acknowledge this but trust me. I'm right about this.

And how is Ulfric a compassionate leader? He does the same thing that Tullius does, and worse by far is giving Jarl Ballin' a choice of giving the Stormcloaks control of the city with him as a mere figurehead, or the stormcloaks taking it from him and leaving him nothing.

Also, he surrenders, likely knowing that he and his men will be executed anyways, which is not compassionate at all, but sacrificing men for nothing.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Oh that's a natural response for a catastrophic event, and yes. Your warmongering General did try to weasel himself out of being killed when he started saying "And if I surrender?" http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1e04

He begged the Stormcloaks to spare his life.

It's a natural response to being under attack by a Dragon that hasn't been seen for thousands of years? Wouldn't the correct response be fleeing to safety or hiding if one cares only for themselves?

Commanding to get the innocent civilians to safety just shows what type of man Tullius is under pressure and when it matters.

He's a Military General, he wasn't trying to weasel himself out of being killed, as the file states 'a mostly hopeless question, but one that must be asked'

He was beaten at that point, majority of his forces destroyed. Every General would ask that question in his position, to secure terms for their men.

So you admit that Tullius knew that the Thalmor was behind this civil war... What does he do? He kept on giving entertainment to his elven masters. He indirectly provided aid by pissing away much resources to deal with the Stormcloak rebellion.

He has no choice, Ulfric forced the Empire's hand when killing Torygg. Tullius being aware the Thalmor are behind it doesn't change anything, this land is part of the Empire.

Yes my solution is to give Skyrim to Ulfric

Why because they're too stupid to figure out the Thalmor are behind the unrest? Ignorance should not be rewarded.

but must sign an agreement to become allies of the Empire, and must provide aid to them in the incoming Great war.

Really? Do you honestly see that happening? Allies with the Empire, now that is funny.

It took the near end of the world to agree to a temporary truce. Ulfric is going to sign treaties with the Empire now? There is a lot of dialogue from Ulfric that would say otherwise to any sort of deal with the Imperials.

If Ulfric breaks the agreement at any given time the Empire would be allowed to retake Skyrim, and Ulfric would forcefully be dethroned. I think it's a fair trade. This would benefit a lot of people, even the Empire. This would null the the white gold concordat, and the remaining units of the Thalmor would be chased out of Skyrim, and Talos worship would open again. How is that bad?

The Stormcloaks are Anti-Empire, they're not willing to talk to Imperials. It took the threat of Alduin for a temporary truce. Neither side is willing to meet each other or speak peace at this point in time.

What kind of message does the Empire send, if they reward those who threaten their authority? Imagine all the Warlords and bandits, who then decide "You know what, I want a little kingdom too."

If Tullius provided Ulfric with such valuable information, and pleaded with him to end the war, and was ignored... then I would sympathized with Tullius that much, and my respect for Ulfric would cease to exist.

Ulfric doesn't care what the Empire says.

"As always, the Empire's fine words are worth nothing!"

So Tullius has to plead with Ulfric?

Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."
Ulfric: "It's a little more than a rebellion, don't you think?"
Galmar: "Heh."

Looks like they ignored that 'valuable information'.

Are you really defending that, that, Matriarch of tyranny and all things evil? Well besides the point that the Silver Bloods send their thugs after you, Maven has you killed, under the Jarl's nose if you even cross her, and its not always by Black Sacrament, oh no, she can make it much much worse, so bad that it make's the Dark Brotherhood look like Saints. Keep that in Mind please.

Silver-Bloods use Forsworn assassins, and kill people in the streets. Right under the Jarl's nose. That and they enslave populations.

Silver-Bloods and Black-Briars are just as bad as each other.

 

[Raijin]

Right now I'm laughing so hard at this post I can barely sit in my chair.

You're funny dude. This reminds me of I think exorcism, where someone makes a comment about the Devil mixing lies with truth so it's easier to swallow.

And this post is a fine example of such.

Furthermore, anyone out there with an iq of 7.5 can see how Gen Tully basically had ENDED THE WAR at the start of the game.

Show me some proof that Tullius (I just love how you call him Tully, how cute!) would've ended the war had he executed Ulfric? You do realize that if the execution took place that Galmar would soon be the new leader of the Stormcloak rebellion.

 

[Raijin]

And how is Ulfric a compassionate leader? He does the same thing that Tullius does, and worse by far is giving Jarl Ballin' a choice of giving the Stormcloaks control of the city with him as a mere figurehead, or the stormcloaks taking it from him and leaving him nothing.

Also, he surrenders, likely knowing that he and his men will be executed anyways, which is not compassionate at all, but sacrificing men for nothing.

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

If this isn't compassionate then I don't know what is.

Tullius is just as guilty if not more for wanting to take over whiterun.

Rikke: "I'm telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun."
Tullius: "He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men."
Rikke: "That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."
Tullius: "It's not a cause. It's a rebellion."
Rikke: "Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun."
Tullius: "Jarl Balgruuf..."
Rikke: "Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim."
Tullius: "Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city."
Rikke: "General."
Tullius: "You people and your damn Jarls."
Rikke: "Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for."
Tullius: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea."
Rikke: "Yes, sir."
Tullius: "You Nords and your bloody sense of honor."
Rikke: "Sir."

Tullius contradicted himself. First he welcomes the idea of Ulfric tasking over whiterun and pillaging his city, and next thing hes doing is instructing his Legate to embellishing a letter to Balgruuf causing him to go in duress, and force him to accept the Empires help.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Or rather made it worse. Think about it, Denying a Nord Hero his right to speak and then chopping his head off with no trial? Yeah, I bet the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim will take that with a grain of Salt.

All for show. Fact is between killing Toygg and denying the moot Ulfric brought down Skyrim's civilian gov and the Empire was *forced* to declare martial law.

Summary executions are permissible under martial law. So no, I don't feel sorry for Ulfric.

Here is the thing about the law: When it comes to treason or not, it does not matter what your motivation is. Rebels think they are doing the right thing, but governments always call them traitors, simply because the government sees it that way.

Martial Law is different. It says in the beg that Gen Tully is the Military Gov, Skyrim is under Martial Law + Civil War. Empire has every right to summary executions, whatever it takes to restore order. That's what it's all about.

My point was Ulfric threw the civilian Gov into a nightmare and then that pretentious fuzzy kitten has the nerve to start talking about giving someone a trial. If the Stormcloaks really cared anything about civility, then Ulfric would have allowed the moot to meet or hammered out a deal with the Empire during Season Unending. Ulfric is entirely too reckless to be the leader of an entire nation.