Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Squirrel_killer-]

Don't even bring ethics concerning due process into this considering Ulfric ordered the executions of innocent men, women and children as well as torturing prisoners for information. By murdering Torygg, Ulfric was paving the way to become High King. There's no way you could outright state Torygg would refuse to join the Empire, he's dead, and the most information you get is "He felt empathy with Ulfric." That doesn't exactly read as "He'd never side with him."

If you talk to many of the people in the Blue Palace many of them agree that Torygg would've sided with Ulfric.

 

[theoperation]

Ulfric ordered the executions of innocent men, women and children as well as torturing prisoners for information."

There's no way Ulfric would order the execution of children.

Skyrim's children are immortal!

 

[Kraad Vestru]

I'm kinda annoyed about some people saying that the Empire was on the verge of annihilation. If you read the book The Great War in the game it even says that the main Altmer army in Cyrodiil was destroyed. Even though the Imperial forces were seriously battered and wounded (the book says 1/2 strength with a total of 3 legions destroyed 2 in the battle and 1 when Mede pulled out of the Imperial City) would they have continued to fight I believe yes. The witch elves had been burning, raping and pillaging for 3 years, people tend to get pissed off about that. Revenge is a powerful motivator. The Nords really don't need that much incentive to kill elves anyway. With the main body of their army destroyed what counter offensive could the dominion have launched? In Hammerfell their second main army was tied up with the fighters there what could the Dominion do? There are no references to other armies on the mainland in any of the books or from any NPC dialogue that I have found. The Dominion and the Empire are currently engaged in a Cold War, you don't do that unless you can't beat the other.

The Dominion people even say that. I believe one of them says something along the lines of 'the dominion and the empire are not really at peace but, are as two great beasts with a pause in the fight.' Yes the Empire was severely wounded but so was the Dominion. Neither had the strength to destroy the other completely after the war. If I was Mede I would have used what remained of my forces to crush the rest of the Dominion forces In Cyrodiil and then turned to help Hammerfell. Then sued for peace, then he probably wouldn't have this problem of a rebellion in Skyrim or a hostile Hammerfell. Because then he most likely wouldn't have had to sign the dang White-Gold Concordant because the Elves would have been completely wiped off the board in the Empire. Instead after a brilliant campaign he chose to look weak rather than strong and his Empire is paying the price and dying.

If you talk to many of the people in the Blue Palace many of them agree that Torygg would've sided with Ulfric.

Torygg still worshiped Talos but didn't have the guts to stand up for it like Ulfric did, he took the bribe money and betrayed one for his Gods. I respect Torygg for going into the ring with Ulfric knowing he would most likely be killed, but not for refusing to stand up against the WGC. Ulfric is not a saint far from it read the Bear of Markarth if you think his $hit smells like roses. But at least he's less stupid in my opinion because he still fights to worship a God and not take money to outlaw him.

 

[theoperation]

I agree with everything Kraad Vestru said

 

[Epic Keith]

Torygg still worshiped Talos but didn't have the guts to stand up for it like Ulfric did, he took the bribe money and betrayed one for his Gods. I respect Torygg for going into the ring with Ulfric knowing he would most likely be killed, but not for refusing to stand up against the WGC. Ulfric is not a saint far from it read the Bear of Markarth if you think his $hit smells like roses. But at least he's less stupid in my opinion because he still fights to worship a God and not take money to outlaw him.

I read the Bear of Markarth. I was shocked. But the moment I found out an Imperial wrote the book, I'm doubting the facts. That's why I never read history books. Reminds me of a quote,

"History is written by the victors. History is filled with lies"

 

[Drecon]

I really love that people can have such strong differing opinions about a fictional character. It really speaks to the depth of the characters in the game. If I were the person responsible for the civil war questline I would be really proud of myself reading this

 

[theoperation]

I really love that people can have such strong differing opinions about a fictional character. It really speaks to the depth of the characters in the game. If I were the person responsible for the civil war questline I would be really proud of myself reading this

It's one of the best political story I've ever seen in a video game. I'm a keen student of the history of war and conflict and the political climate that leads to war. The details in the Elder Scrolls world are every bit as detailed as any real historical conflict. The story behind Ulfric himself is also very interesting, much like many historical military leaders.
The writers behind this game ought to be proud

 

[Docta Corvina]

I really love that people can have such strong differing opinions about a fictional character. It really speaks to the depth of the characters in the game. If I were the person responsible for the civil war questline I would be really proud of myself reading this

So very true. I'm an historian myself, with a focus on ancient Roman history. All of the studying I did has so many echoes in this game in particular. You will never hear me say that the historical parallels are perfect, because they're certainly not. But it's fun for me. On a more superficial level, I know how tickled I was to see the Imperials in decidedly Roman type gear.

 

[Ritterkreuz]

So very true. I'm an historian myself, with a focus on ancient Roman history. All of the studying I did has so many echoes in this game in particular. You will never hear me say that the historical parallels are perfect, because they're certainly not. But it's fun for me. On a more superficial level, I know how tickled I was to see the Imperials in decidedly Roman type gear.

I'm also a History buff, and I agree that some of the parallels in this game to real world events have been great. The developers really did an awesome job here. Oh, and I too loved the Roman style Armor.

 

[Epic Keith]

Everyone loves history. Seems I ain't the only History Greeks

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Torygg still worshiped Talos but didn't have the guts to stand up for it like Ulfric did, he took the bribe money and betrayed one for his Gods. I respect Torygg for going into the ring with Ulfric knowing he would most likely be killed, but not for refusing to stand up against the WGC. Ulfric is not a saint far from it read the Bear of Markarth if you think his $hit smells like roses. But at least he's less stupid in my opinion because he still fights to worship a God and not take money to outlaw him.

Ulfric never requested Torygg's help, but rather issued his challenge and killed him. I personally believe if Ulfric requested Torygg to raise an army of angry Nords to give the beat down on the elves, spear headed that army with a combatant-general (a general who fights as well as leads) like Ulfric, who is by all accounts a master of the voice and nearly a grey beard, and Skyrim alone could declare independent war on the Dominion and raze all blood Nordic hell, crush the Dominion forces preoccupying the Redguard rebellions in Hammerfell from attacking the Dominion, and now you got and army of angry Nords and an army of pissed off Redguards who have a reputation for being master warriors. This would more than be enough to be the Dominion down until the Legion could reform, and not only defeat the Aldmeri Dominion, but also return their provinces to the Empire's control. Remember I never even mentioned the third great warrior race, the Orsimer, who are by all accounts deadly and brutal heavy infantry. The Empire has these to fight the Dominion, and two of the races are ready to fight the Dominion at command.

Ulfric was a fool to not see that with the Empire he could not only beat the plops out of the Dominion on their way out of Skyrim, but also be able to attack the Dominion at home and raze hell. And the Empire could have requested these two provinces to to declare independent war on the Dominion, effectively wiping its hands clean of any blame by saying it was not responsible, as well as allowing some really deadly Nords to raise war with the Dominion, weakening them further. Remember neither the Empire nor the Dominion can afford war at this moment, however, the Nords and Redguard are still ready to fight. If the Dominion was to be attacked by these two forces the Empire would easily be able to fight the Dominion once the Legion recovered.

So ultimately the Imperials are the only path to victory against the Dominion, however it needs to be done differently then what the two sides are proposing.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Ulfric is nowhere near a master of the Thu'um, or a Greybeard.

 

[unrealtron]

The only reason I joined the stormcloaks is because my first character was a Nord. The second time I played I joined the imperials, and had more fun in the battles.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

And another

Ulfric is nowhere near a master of the Thu'um, or a Greybeard.

Talk to him, he was on his way to becoming a Greybeard. He left to fight the Great War. And remember he is shown in Lore to be powerful when he uses the Thu'um. Personally I found everyone to be rather weakened when they used Thu'um in Skyrim compared to lore. Probably for game play reasons. However lore wise he is. Or as close as he can be without being Dragonborn or a full Greybeard.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

And another
Talk to him, he was on his way to becoming a Greybeard. He left to fight the Great War. And remember he is shown in Lore to be powerful when he uses the Thu'um. Personally I found everyone to be rather weakened when they used Thu'um in Skyrim compared to lore. Probably for game play reasons. However lore wise he is. Or as close as he can be without being Dragonborn or a full Greybeard.

But the Greybeards don't use the Thu'um for their own personal gain, unlike Ulfric. A true Greybeard would not cease his learning or meditation to join a war. Since, you know, they make it clear they are greatly opposed to it. And just because Ulfric says something, doesn't mean he isn't hyping it all up for his benefit. Considering the guy even upon death wishes to be in song and stories tells me he's full of bullplops.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

But the Greybeards don't use the Thu'um for their own personal gain, unlike Ulfric. A true Greybeard would not cease his learning or meditation to join a war. Since, you know, they make it clear they are greatly opposed to it. And just because Ulfric says something, doesn't mean he isn't hyping it all up for his benefit. Considering the guy even upon death wishes to be in song and stories tells me he's full of bullplops.

I fully agree a true Greybeard wouldn't join a war. However he was still in the process of joining them and therefore not fully integrated with their beliefs yet and had yet to detach himself from the world as much as they have.

 

[Raijin]

Don't even bring ethics concerning due process into this considering Ulfric ordered the executions of innocent men, women and children as well as torturing prisoners for information. By murdering Torygg, Ulfric was paving the way to become High King. There's no way you could outright state Torygg would refuse to join the Empire, he's dead, and the most information you get is "He felt empathy with Ulfric." That doesn't exactly read as "He'd never side with him."

Did you read the rest of the Bear of Markarth or did you just stop after you read about how Ulfric ordered the deaths of innocent people? While it may seem gruesome, The empire allowed it to happen. They hired Ulfric and his Stormcloak army to invade the reach, and to restore order in with return to allow the nords to have free worship of Talos as commission of service that they provided to the empire, Which is a clear violation of the White-Gold Concordat. Torturing people for information is rather normal, especially during war.

Ulfric did not murder the High King. He killed him in fair combat. Ulfric proved that he is suitable for High King. Torygg was weak and defenseless. Ulfric says right.. if he couldn't defend himself how is he to defend all of Skyrim? That's a pretty legit question to ask, wouldn't you say? You know almost all of the nords, with enough ambition, dedication, and discipline can achieve the ability to use the voice. While others failed due to whatever reason (The Jarl in Whiterun) others have unlocked the ability to use the ancient dragon tongue (Ulfric). I'm certain that if it was the other way around, and it was Torygg that used the dragon tongue against Ulfric, and then stabbed him the heart that everyone would look at Torygg as a hero, and not as a murderer.

 

[Jeremius]

I fully agree a true Greybeard wouldn't join a war. However he was still in the process of joining them and therefore not fully integrated with their beliefs yet and had yet to detach himself from the world as much as they have.

Now we are talking about Ulfric and the Thu'um plus Torygg? two things:

1. Torygg had no experience against the voice, so lorewise it is likely that Torygg was killed by the voice but he likely knew that Ulfric could use the voice, and only thought that Ulfric would not use it. until we find a list of nordic dueling rules, or a list of agreed upon weapons, we cannot be certain that the voice is forbidden or not. it is cowardly, but likely legal in duels by the ancient ways. In other words, DO NOT CALL MURDER BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE ALL THE FACTS!
2. Look at most of the imperial Jarls: ingmund is a joke, Ravencrone hardly talks in person and the Jarl of Falkreath is a party boy who could care less about his hold. Only Elisif and Balgruff (during the CW questchain) actually care about their people and most only likely joined with the empire to keep their positions.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Getting so dizzy from the cycles of this thread.

Won't stop me from digging in time after time, but maaaaan...it's been a crazy ride from the start!

 

[Raijin]

Now we are talking about Ulfric and the Thu'um plus Torygg? two things:

1. Torygg had no experience against the voice, so lorewise it is likely that Torygg was killed by the voice but he likely knew that Ulfric could use the voice, and only thought that Ulfric would not use it. until we find a list of nordic dueling rules, or a list of agreed upon weapons, we cannot be certain that the voice is forbidden or not. it is cowardly, but likely legal in duels by the ancient ways. In other words, DO NOT CALL MURDER BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE ALL THE FACTS!
2. Look at most of the imperial Jarls: ingmund is a joke, Ravencrone hardly talks in person and the Jarl of Falkreath is a party boy who could care less about his hold. Only Elisif and Balgruff (during the CW questchain) actually care about their people and most only likely joined with the empire to keep their positions.

1. I give it about 99% that Torygg was most likely killed by Ulfrics blade through the heart then with with his Thu'um.

2. To be honest with you many of the Jarls that supports the stormcloaks aren't winners ;/