Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[NENALATA]

NENALATA said: ↑

As for Summerset, neither the Stormcloaks or the Empire possess the ability to take us out. Can't be done. The writers out of prejudice could twist it in the storyline, however, it's not realistic.​

As far as I know the Empire has a Navy of its own, and as long as they got ships they can get to Alinor. Technically, it isn't needed to just swim over there and invade, just decrease their manpower enough to force them to retreat and you'll at least have peace on the mainland.
I guess the Emperor wouldn't give a rats' rear what the Thalmor are doing on their island (since the Altmer chose them themselves above their own Kings and Queens) as long as they stay in their own territory and don't take that of the Empire.
Though, if the Empire's strength reaches its peak once again, I have no doubt the Empire will want a proper revenge for the first war.

Well, so they have a Navy... the reason Thalmor wanted Southern Hammerfell was to stop the piracy and put a stop to the Redguard's Navy. And it isn't as simple as sending troops to Alinor, assuming they make it of course which that alone would be a high mortality rate. As long as Valenwood and maybe Eleswyr aren't conquered, there's no point in sending troops by sea because the Empire would never be able to hold any territory they take. If those Provinces should fall, then the Empire could keep a steady invasion going. I highly doubt that such a thing is possible, however.

The Empire would need Hammerfell's help to win. And it doesn't look like that's going to happen any time soon. Nor would they help the Stormcloaks because the Stormcloaks ignored the Redguards in their time of need against the Thalmor. This is a VERY good thing for us. As long as Hammerfell stays neutral and the Empire keeps running around in circles desperately trying to put a stop to the violence and social problems in Cyrodil and Skyrim, we'll be straight.

I guess the Emperor wouldn't give a rats' rear what the Thalmor are doing on their island (since the Altmer chose them themselves above their own Kings and Queens) as long as they stay in their own territory and don't take that of the Empire.

So then, during the Oblivion crises, when the Empire chose to ABANDON the Kings and Queens and everyone on Summerset in favor of pulling the Legion back to protect Cyrodil, what of it? The various Wizard factions and Thalmor had to work together to save the Altmer. This is one reason I started to really dislike the Empire and another reason not to worship Talos as a God.

The Thalmor and some of the Wizards not only saw this coming, but also were wise enough to NOT allow the same people to take charge again. Tiber Septim conquered Summerset and the rest of the Dominion out of spite. Neither he nor any other Emperor really cared anything about the High Elves or the Dominion. They just wanted us kept quiet and under control so they could exploit all the wealth, power and money out of Tamriel without having to answer to anyone else for their 'crimes'. More for themselves, less for everyone else.

//edit
Did some more Lore-search and found some interesting NPC dialogue from Oblivion:
"They say syndicates of wizards have led a boycott of Imperial goods in the land of the Altmer."
"The Altmer have powerful wizards. It could become a dangerous situation."

Gosh, I love these series. I bet no one who played Oblivion would have guessed what these two, little, seemingly meaningless lines of dialogue might have been trying to indicate...

Yeah I caught that the first time around I figured something would happen but had no idea they would have gone this far with it.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You hate the Empire for abandoning Summerset Isle? Where does it say Summerset Isle even maintained Legion garrisons? Summerset Isle is apparently not well documented or mapped, wouldn't make sense to have a Legion there while not knowing the surrounding country side.

Summerset Isle is too far away to provide help to Cyrodiil. Also the sea around Summerset was violent and destroyed ships during the Oblivion Crisis, so even if they had a Legion it wouldn't have been able to leave.

So it leaves us to the logical choice of either they never had a Legion garrison, or the Legion was destroyed by Daedra.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You took what I said out of context. You have (1) person who is most likely not even authorized to say anything at all starting rumors.

You have no further sources of information other than (1) person stating what basically amounts to their opinion.

We have absolutely no way of knowing whether or not this person actually works for Beth, this could be a friend or someone's family just messing around.

Yes, I'm very proud to be a soldier for the Dominion and I look forward to the day when the armies of the Dominion reclaim our rule over Tamriel, most likely starting with Cyrodil.

I took it out of context?

Finally, Bethesda? LMAO Shhh you got to be kidding me. 'Concept Artist' riiight. It's just another forum troll with a Bethesda tag on his profile.

Lets take a look. You have (1) Person from Bethesda, talking on a forums owned and maintained by Bethesda. If he wasn't authorized to say or hint towards anything, he wouldn't have posted. Why? Because Bethesda is very selective on what they say and they wouldn't just talk plops on their own forums.

We have absolutely every way of knowing it. It is a Bethesda owned forums, with a Bethesda owned account. What more do you need, couldn't be someone's family messing around otherwise it would have been deleted, they can only say certain things in regards to their product..

You have nothing another than to try and say Bethesda are trolls or the Bethesda account is just someone's family messing around. This isn't the first time where you go to odd levels of extreme denial. That is one of the reasons why debating in this thread is annoying, anytime I am corrected, or many others are corrected I admit it, they admit it. It is how you learn. Anytime you're corrected you go into denial, this is the highest level of denial I have seen in this and all other Civil War threads. You actually tried to discredit Bethesda as being valid.

 

[NENALATA]

You hate the Empire for abandoning Summerset Isle? Where does it say Summerset Isle even maintained Legion garrisons? Summerset Isle is apparently not well documented or mapped, wouldn't make sense to have a Legion there while not knowing the surrounding country side.

Summerset Isle is too far away to provide help to Cyrodiil. Also the sea around Summerset was violent and destroyed ships during the Oblivion Crisis, so even if they had a Legion it wouldn't have been able to leave.

So it leaves us to the logical choice of either they never had a Legion garrison, or the Legion was destroyed by Daedra.

Incorrect. I don't really hate the Empire per say.

Ohhh I see. So the Summerset Isle was too far away to receive help from Cyrodil but not too far away to be conquered. That makes me feel sooo much better now.

I fail to follow your logic on this one. Obviously, the Legion is stationed in EVERY Imperial Province, Legate Fasendil confirms this.

So... therefore, the only logical explanation is they left the Altmer to fend for themselves, just like what happened with Morrowind, another Elven Province.

Wow hadn't thought about that one... which re-enforces my point nicely.

 

[NENALATA]

Lets take a look. You have (1) Person from Bethesda, talking on a forums owned and maintained by Bethesda. If he wasn't authorized to say or hint towards anything, he wouldn't have posted. Why? Because Bethesda is very selective on what they say and they wouldn't just talk pl*** on their own forums.

We have absolutely every way of knowing it. It is a Bethesda owned forums, with a Bethesda owned account. What more do you need, couldn't be someone's family messing around otherwise it would have been deleted, they can only say certain things in regards to their product..

Yes you did. And no, he's not authorized to say anything. That's how the gaming industry works. Perhaps we took each other out of context, it doesn't matter. They're sworn to secrecy on whatever it is the co is working on ~ You can get FIRED and BLACKLISTED for breaking this protocol. Then no gaming co will want you because you'll leak their product. All of em are that way, that's why they have Public Relations people.

You have nothing another than to try and say Bethesda are trolls or the Bethesda account is just someone's family messing around. This isn't the first time where you go to odd levels of extreme denial. That is one of the reasons why debating in this thread is annoying, anytime I am corrected, or many others are corrected I admit it, they admit it. It is how you learn. Anytime you're corrected you go into denial, this is the highest level of denial I have seen in this and all other Civil War threads. You actually tried to discredit Bethesda as being valid.

I have nothing? To you perhaps, however YOU have nothing. And you're stewing over what I said, you're not listening. Never did I ever say that Bethesda are Trolls, I said we know nothing about this person. Quite often TROLLS do this kind of thing, it's all over the internet, in case you haven't noticed. They did it before with the "Redguard" DLC for Skyrim.

I'm looking at this logically and analytically, nothing is sacred anymore. You can't say I've gone into Denial because I haven't "Denied" anything yet. He may be right, he may not be. All I've done is posed one of the ONLY counter-argument to majority of Thalmor (ELF) Biased users who have accepted this guys junk at face value.

I ask Questions and don't allow my emotions to drive my debate. If this makes me odd or extreme, to question the validity of some unknown, unofficial source of information (doing my job), then that doesn't say much for 'normal' people. :/

 

[DrunkenMage]

You hate the Empire for abandoning Summerset Isle? Where does it say Summerset Isle even maintained Legion garrisons? Summerset Isle is apparently not well documented or mapped, wouldn't make sense to have a Legion there while not knowing the surrounding country side.

Summerset Isle is too far away to provide help to Cyrodiil. Also the sea around Summerset was violent and destroyed ships during the Oblivion Crisis, so even if they had a Legion it wouldn't have been able to leave.

So it leaves us to the logical choice of either they never had a Legion garrison, or the Legion was destroyed by Daedra.

Incorrect. I don't really hate the Empire per say.

Ohhh I see. So the Summerset Isle was too far away to receive help from Cyrodil but not too far away to be conquered. That makes me feel sooo much better now.

I fail to follow your logic on this one. Obviously, the Legion is stationed in EVERY Imperial Province, Legate Fasendil confirms this.

So... therefore, the only logical explanation is they left the Altmer to fend for themselves, just like what happened with Morrowind, another Elven Province.

Wow hadn't thought about that one... which re-enforces my point nicely.

Summerset Isle was needed to force the surrender of the Aldmeri Dominion. Who had been attacking the Empire for quite sometime. Don't start a war and cry victim when you're defeated.

My logic on this one was due to the fact not a single garrison fort is ever mentioned in Summerset Isle, every other province on mainland Tamriel is mentioned to having and once having garrisons. Summerset Isle is also not well mapped in terms of not in game maps but lore wise to the Empire, they don't know much about it.

Legate Fasendil doesn't confirm any Imperial Garrison in Summerset Isles, all Legates say the Empire has garrisons in every province of the Empire to maintain law, protect the citizenry and serve the Emperor. Summerset Isle is a different case, since there is not a single mention to ever having a garrison.

But a garrison in Summerset Isles is simply too far away to protect Cyrodiil, so they couldn't have left to defend Cyrodiil.

Now the difference between Summerset Isle and Morrowind, the Legion garrisons in Morrowind are next to Cyrodiil. You can get there by foot. You mean to tell me the Empire abandoned Summerset Isle, with no boats mind you, that they swam for probably several weeks or months to Anvil, in heavy armor, with gear and weapons to go fight Daedra?

Your logic, never ceases to amaze me. Who would of thought the Legions would swim from Summerset Isle to Cyrodiil. The dedication to their Empire is just outstanding, they're so going to win the next war.

Now, show me where it says the Empire abandoned the Altmer? Could you provide the source.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Lets take a look. You have (1) Person from Bethesda, talking on a forums owned and maintained by Bethesda. If he wasn't authorized to say or hint towards anything, he wouldn't have posted. Why? Because Bethesda is very selective on what they say and they wouldn't just talk pl*** on their own forums.

We have absolutely every way of knowing it. It is a Bethesda owned forums, with a Bethesda owned account. What more do you need, couldn't be someone's family messing around otherwise it would have been deleted, they can only say certain things in regards to their product..

Yes you did. And no, he's not authorized to say anything. That's how the gaming industry works. Perhaps we took each other out of context, it doesn't matter. They're sworn to secrecy on whatever it is the co is working on ~ You can get FIRED and BLACKLISTED for breaking this protocol. Then no gaming co will want you because you'll leak their product. All of em are that way, that's why they have Public Relations people.

You have nothing another than to try and say Bethesda are trolls or the Bethesda account is just someone's family messing around. This isn't the first time where you go to odd levels of extreme denial. That is one of the reasons why debating in this thread is annoying, anytime I am corrected, or many others are corrected I admit it, they admit it. It is how you learn. Anytime you're corrected you go into denial, this is the highest level of denial I have seen in this and all other Civil War threads. You actually tried to discredit Bethesda as being valid.

I have nothing? To you perhaps, however YOU have nothing. And you're stewing over what I said, you're not listening. Never did I ever say that Bethesda are Trolls, I said we know nothing about this person. Quite often TROLLS do this kind of thing, it's all over the internet, in case you haven't noticed. They did it before with the "Redguard" DLC for Skyrim.

I'm looking at this logically and analytically, nothing is sacred anymore. You can't say I've gone into Denial because I haven't "Denied" anything yet. He may be right, he may not be. All I've done is posed one of the ONLY counter-argument to majority of Thalmor (ELF) Biased users who have accepted this guys junk at face value.

I ask Questions and don't allow my emotions to drive my debate. If this makes me odd or extreme, to question the validity of some unknown, unofficial source of information (doing my job), then that doesn't say much for 'normal' people. :/

He said something on a Bethesda owned forums with a Bethesda account. You called him a troll, then tried to discredit him as a person because he said something mean about the Thalmor. If he wasn't allowed to post anything, he wouldn't have, key logic on that one. You don't post something you're not allowed when your company owns the site.

Bethesda can talk badly about Thalmor, because no one supports the Thalmor and you can't join the Thalmor. No one actually honestly goes for the Thalmor belief because they are the bad guys, through and through. Bethesda can't comment on say, who is right between Stormcloaks or Imperials. But the Thalmor everyone dislikes and no one in their right mind truly supports Thalmor ideals.

You only discredit Bethesda because they aren't supporting the Thalmor. You are just too unwillingly to accept it, Bethesda hinting about the Thalmor downfall. They're allowed to do that because that is what the majority wants, the Thalmor are like Nazi's with their racial purity, slaughtering those they consider impure.

The Redguard thing was completely different. This wasn't Bethesda posting something, it was them doing something with the trademark for the 'Redguard' TES game.

If you don't know the differences between Bethesda posting on their own forums and a document about the trademark Redguard. Then you need to take step back and play spot the difference.

You do have nothing, you did call Bethesda a forum troll. I quoted it before. You post the only defense in your mind about defending your views, which many times you have gone to the point where you deny certain lore. Now you just called Bethesda's post as junk, because you believe everyone is biased against Elves, you have had this view some time going on about how it pisses everyone off cause you defend the Thalmor. No one cares about who you defend in a debate, everyone can have their own views. You just tell yourself everyone dislikes you and everyone is against you because of who you support. It isn't.

There is a difference to questioning something and outright denying something. You called Bethesda a forum troll, you didn't question it, you stated it as fact. Calling him a forum troll. Had you asked, "How do we know he is Bethesda" right off the bat, you would have been given the answer instead of coming off like a fool.

Look at all the times we have gone over in debates. It ends up with you going to the extreme denial, it is true. Take for example where you said senior forum members are out to get you and that we're here to flex our muscles to bash people down. Then you said we attack people personally, insulting them personally and use Moderators to ban people we don't like. Now you called Bethesda a forum troll and are saying the post is junk. Do you see a trend here?

I'm starting to wonder at times if you're just simply trolling or if you're so warped by your view, that it makes perfect sense in your mind to discredit Bethesda's input as junk. You say I never listen, but you just call anything that goes against you as false, no matter how much evidence there is to support it.

 

[NENALATA]

He said something on a Bethesda owned forums with a Bethesda account. You called him a troll, then tried to discredit him as a person because he said something mean about the Thalmor. If he wasn't allowed to post anything, he wouldn't have, key logic on that one. You don't post something you're not allowed when your company owns the site.

Bethesda can talk badly about Thalmor, because no one supports the Thalmor and you can't join the Thalmor. No one actually honestly goes for the Thalmor belief because they are the bad guys, through and through. Bethesda can't comment on say, who is right between Stormcloaks or Imperials. But the Thalmor everyone dislikes and no one in their right mind truly supports Thalmor ideals.

You only discredit Bethesda because they aren't supporting the Thalmor. You are just too unwillingly to accept it, Bethesda hinting about the Thalmor downfall. They're allowed to do that because that is what the majority wants, the Thalmor are like Nazi's with their racial purity, slaughtering those they consider impure.

The Redguard thing was completely different. This wasn't Bethesda posting something, it was them doing something with the trademark for the 'Redguard' TES game.

If you don't know the differences between Bethesda posting on their own forums and a document about the trademark Redguard. Then you need to take step back and play spot the difference.

You do have nothing, you did call Bethesda a forum troll. I quoted it before. You post the only defense in your mind about defending your views, which many times you have gone to the point where you deny certain lore. Now you just called Bethesda's post as junk, because you believe everyone is biased against Elves, you have had this view some time going on about how it pisses everyone off cause you defend the Thalmor. No one cares about who you defend in a debate, everyone can have their own views. You just tell yourself everyone dislikes you and everyone is against you because of who you support. It isn't.

There is a difference to questioning something and outright denying something. You called Bethesda a forum troll, you didn't question it, you stated it as fact. Calling him a forum troll. Had you asked, "How do we know he is Bethesda" right off the bat, you would have been given the answer instead of coming off like a fool.

Look at all the times we have gone over in debates. It ends up with you going to the extreme denial, it is true. Take for example where you said senior forum members are out to get you and that we're here to flex our muscles to bash people down. Then you said we attack people personally, insulting them personally and use Moderators to ban people we don't like. Now you called Bethesda a forum troll and are saying the post is junk. Do you see a trend here?

I'm starting to wonder at times if you're just simply trolling or if you're so warped by your view, that it makes perfect sense in your mind to discredit Bethesda's input as junk. You say I never listen, but you just call anything that goes against you as false, no matter how much evidence there is to support it.

First of all, I don't know who this person is and neither do you. TROLLS do this sort of thing all the time. You're too emotionally invested in this and anyone can see how you've lost perspective on this issue and are reacting instead of just 'answering the question'.

Yeah, I do think that guy is acting like a Troll. Because no one who cares anything at all about their job would post something about an upcoming game that hasn't been announced or confirmed by Bethesda.

And furthermore, WORSE THAN THIS is another person who comes along and believes everything he's told and promotes these OUTRAGEOUS rumors around like a tool. Eric Cartman perhaps?

It matters not to me what his or your opinion of the Thalmor might be. You are both entitled to your opinion, however on a public internet forum, you should expect that everyone won't share it. I have no control over what will or won't be.

From your post it's also abundantly clear that you have now gone off topic and are out in left field attacking me.

This is something which needs to be pm'd, as your 'personal feelings' are not relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[NENALATA]

And since you've opened the door on 'personal feelings', I'd like to share something with you DM.

I have no problem whatsoever with post# 11871. However in 11872, well, you may say you're an Imperial, however you're not acting like one. General Tullius, Hadvar, Rikke they're all very soft-spoken people. Not overbearing or into giving big speeches. This is just an observation, however... you seem to act more like Ulfric and have a Stormcloak manner about you. Really.

- At Whiterun, Tullius is patient and doesn't force the Empire on that hold. He gives Jarl B the freedom to see what's up and decide for himself.

- You on the other hand and those who follow you closest, are more like Ulfric and Galmar. If he's not with us then he's against us and we need to try and make anyone who questions what we're doing look foolish. And anyone who doesn't agree with us needs to be publicly flogged and put in their place.

- The Empire while it doesn't like the Thalmor, understands how to deal with them and still is respectful towards them because of the treaty.

- You guys seem like you're ready to put a Battleaxe across my face, Stormcloak again.

- Thought the Empire has an Emperor, even he understands the Empire is not made up of one person and Imperials in general are very respectful of people's differences, no matter how odd or extreme that might APPEAR.

- The Imperials here on the other hand, are not respectful towards anyone who does not quickly agree with them and adopt your argument as their argument. Stormcloak again, this is also classic Ulfric.

- Not to mention when you said I didn't belong on this forum and should just go back to the 'Dominion' forum. That's Grey Quarter right there buddy. Where ALL of are, where we 'belong'.

So that's how I feel.

 

[DrunkenMage]

First of all, calling Bethesda a troll doesn't support your argument. You also never asked a question to be answered. I have responded to all your posts towards me, both on the subject of in game and now the subject about Bethesda.

Secondly, no one has posted anything about an upcoming game. I showed a link of someone from Bethesda, on a Bethesda owned forums, on a Bethesda owned account. Calling the Thalmor arrogant fools.

Thirdly, what really is worse is someone who can actually believe calling Bethesda a troll is a valid form of debate. What is 'outrageous' is you actually convince yourself of this.

From my post I have gone off topic? I'm replying to you, you're the one who called Bethesda a forum troll. Out in the left field attacking you, well that is called debate. I have replied to many of your posts regarding in game information. I'm still waiting on that source about the Empire abandoning the Altmer.

My personal feelings are not what is up for question. Nor would I even consider sending a PM to you, I am unaffected one way or another in what you defend, what shocks me the most is the manner in which you do. I provided many examples of your end of debate style, once you're up against the wall you bring out a well I suppose it would be a questionable comment.

You can't simply call Bethesda a troll and expect me to accept that as valid form of a counter argument. What is next? Elenwen secretly a goat in Altmer skin outfit.

Edit: You just went on about me and personal feelings saying they don't belong, then make a giant post all about personal feelings? That is perfect example of what I'm on about.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I don't even know how to respond to that other post? Now I'm a Stormcloak? You said Imperials were bad not long ago, and Stormcloaks get sympathy and are in the right. Then it is the other way around and Imperials are great and Stormcloaks bad. Make your mind up, I'm getting confused over what you're trying to call me.

Edit; I opened a door to personal feelings? I don't even know what you're on about. So not only have you opened this figurative door, you've let yourself in.

 

[Sven]

Stormcloak,mostly because I heavily ally with their believes,because of the country I live in,which is suffering from foreign and mostly Muslim invaders who do not have good intentions to my people and our way of life.

I feel like Im home among the Stormcloaks,a people who only fight for the good of their people.They may be aggressive and extremist,but that is only fueled by their love and need to protect their land and people.

Anyone who sees them only as stupid barbarian racists does so because he/she does not know their point of view first hand.I do,and thats why I understand them.

 

[Jeremius]

I left the forums for awhile, but came back realizing that the Civil War is not based on facts or in-game evidence, but RP per character.

just real boring, however.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Stormcloak,mostly because I heavily ally with their believes,because of the country I live in,which is suffering from foreign and mostly Muslim invaders who do not have good intentions to my people and our way of life.

I feel like Im home among the Stormcloaks,a people who only fight for the good of their people.They may be aggressive and extremist,but that is only fueled by their love and need to protect their land and people.

Anyone who sees them only as stupid barbarian racists does so because he/she does not know their point of view first hand.I do,and thats why I understand them.

There is a difference however. It is a Civil War, they're fighting each other, the Stormcloaks aren't fighting foreign invaders, they're fighting against their own kin, Skyrim has been part of the Empire for over an Era. The Civil War is what the Thalmor want, Ulfric Stormcloak is their asset, they're aiding him and kept him from getting captured for many months until General Tullius was sent who he himself knows the Thalmor are behind it. When the Empire captured Ulfric, the Thalmor were in Helgen to try and stop the execution.

Ulfric isn't fighting for the good of his people, he's fighting for songs and a good story. The Empire provides the Nords with much needed food and resources, then Ulfric's taking his entire army to the Aldmeri Dominion where they will be slaughtered. That doesn't matter to Ulfric, more dead the better the tale.

Ulfric: "Come, Galmar. Where's your sense of the dramatic moment?"
Galmar: "By the gods! If it's a good ending to some damn story you're after"

Tullius explains it better. "But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius to Ulfric Stormcloak.

 

[Sven]

DrunkenMage

Ulfric is a douche,I never said anything about him in my post.And he is no agent of the thalmor,it just happens that he is unknowingly helping them by making the civil war and weakening an already weak empire.

Here is my thoughs on why Im still with the Stormcloaks ANYWAY - Skyrim,just like Hammerfell,has no place anymore in the spineless Empire that betrayed its own creator by signing the Concordat,and leaving one of its provinces(Hammerfell) to the mercy of the thalmor.
Another thing,Its no longer the Septim's empire,is no longer the empire in Oblivion.Very ironic Bethesda gave the Empire in TESV Roman looking attire,they are just like Rome,falling apart from the inside,and destined for doom.

And one final thing,I've played this game since it came out,and one of the things I loved to do is walk around Skyrim talking to people.And by doing a quick muster of all viewpoints,Half of the people have no love for the empire,the other half just hope the war doesn't ruin their lives.Very few people(Mostly just Battle-Borns and the people in Solitude) have sympathy for the empire.
Its just wrong to force a people under your will without them wanting that(unless youre American,then youre just giving them freedom and democracy)

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Sueing for peace is never the weak option. The problem for me looking at it as a neutral party, is that the Stormcloak side is mostly opinion without any big picture. What do you think is easier to conquer a weakened large empire or a fractured weakened independent states.

Rome fell apart because of many tribes coming at them in a short succession. Which is like the Stormcloaks (and various other factions) are doing. Due to the fact in-lore and canon the Empire didn't enforce the ban of Talos in Skyrim til Ulfric decided he would spit useless rhetoric "all for a damn song."

Technically it isn't forcing people under your will. It is trying to keep you country united in the face of Tyranny (Be it Ulfric or the Aldmeri)

On a side note. I don't believe you can force Democracy or "Freedom"

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ulfric is a douche,I never said anything about him in my post.And he is no agent of the thalmor,it just happens that he is unknowingly helping them by making the civil war and weakening an already weak empire.

You don't need to say anything about Ulfric, you can't have the Stormcloaks without Ulfric. They're named after him, they swear fealty to him and only him. You can't have one without the other. No one said Ulfric is an agent of the Thalmor, I said asset. Those are the Thalmor's words, not mine. He himself is being aided by the Thalmor, his Stormcloaks being indirectly aided by the Thalmor.

Here is my thoughs on why Im still with the Stormcloaks ANYWAY - Skyrim,just like Hammerfell,has no place anymore in the spineless Empire that betrayed its own creator by signing the Concordat,and leaving one of its provinces(Hammerfell) to the mercy of the thalmor.
Another thing,Its no longer the Septim's empire,is no longer the empire in Oblivion.Very ironic Bethesda gave the Empire in TESV Roman looking attire,they are just like Rome,falling apart from the inside,and destined for doom.

Skyrim is nothing like Hammerfell, or remotely similar. Skyrim actually relies on the Empire for many things, such as food. The Empire isn't spineless, they fought a war and snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. The White-Gold Concordat was signed so the Empire could regain strength, which it has been. As noted in game, the majority of the Imperial Army is already on the Aldmeri Dominion's border, preparing for round two of the battle. Talos wasn't betrayed, his ban was poorly enforced with twenty six years of Nords with their little shrines to Talos, defying the White-Gold Concordat without anything to fear. Until Ulfric and his "Sons and Daughters of Skyrim" The Thalmor used the Civil War to be able to conduct a large Inquisition on the local Nords, causing many to flock to Ulfric, keeping the Civil War lasting.

Hammerfell wasn't left at the mercy of the Thalmor, the Thalmor controlled a small portion which they had already occupied during the war. Without the Empire, the Redguards wouldn't have hoped to defeat the Aldmeri to a stand still. The Aldmeri Dominion was greatly weaked during their battle with the Legions in Hammerfell, and further when they were driven back retreating suffering heavy losses by the large number of Legionnaires the Empire left behind, which formed the core of the army that drove the Thalmor back. After the Battle of the Red Ring, he Thalmor had lost their entire main army in Cyrodiil. The Redguards refused the White-Gold Concordat, by doing so they refused Imperial authority, leaving the Empire little choice but to let them go. When it comes to lore about the Redguards and their ability, it was the Thalmor left at the mercy of the Redguard.

The Septim Empire wasn't even that great, it had far greater conflicts. Even a Civil War between the Septim's themselves. TES III Morrowind the Empire had Roman looking Legionnaires, during the reign of Uriel.

And one final thing,I've played this game since it came out,and one of the things I loved to do is walk around Skyrim talking to people.And by doing a quick muster of all viewpoints,Half of the people have no love for the empire,the other half just hope the war doesn't ruin their lives.Very few people(Mostly just Battle-Borns and the people in Solitude) have sympathy for the empire.
Its just wrong to force a people under your will without them wanting that(unless youre American,then youre just giving them freedom and democracy)

I enjoy walking around and talking to the NPC's too. I especially like the parts that tell you Skyrim could have probably left the Empire peacefully without any bloodshed, also the parts that mention the Stormcloak supporters in the Reach plan to enslave the native population. You forgot to mention the Argonian's and Dunmer of Windhelm glad to see the Empire running things. Before we go onto the subject of the Empire forcing people under their will, you're forgetting Ulfric is running a dictatorship. Nordic tradition suits Ulfric when it makes him in the right, there are many examples of him showing the same disrespect of Nordic culture as Tullius does. The Pact of Chieftains which was formed after the First War of Succession which tore the Nordic Empire apart in the First Era, is now meaningless. Galmar Stone-Fist is placed in charge of keeping the Jarls in line, not to mention the whole Stormcloak "With us or against us" That is hardly the talk of a non oppressive regime.

All the Stormcloaks do at the end of the day is bring oppression, slavery and still the banning of another religion is happening. They have quite a bit in common with the Aldmeri Dominion than they'd like to believe.

 

[Sven]

You don't need to say anything about Ulfric, you can't have the Stormcloaks without Ulfric. They're named after him, they swear fealty to him and only him. You can't have one without the other. No one said Ulfric is an agent of the Thalmor, I said asset. Those are the Thalmor's words, not mine. He himself is being aided by the Thalmor, his Stormcloaks being indirectly aided by the Thalmor.

Actually,if youre on PC you can have anything.In my savegame Ulfric is dead and gone.
Im using a mod - Ulfric dies during the siege of Solitude,making him a super giga mega big Nord Hero,And you,as the dragonborn take the Stormcloak armies(Since youre nicknamed Stormblade,it is almost Lore-fitting)Galmar is Jarl of Windhelm nd Elisif is on the row for High Queen.The NPC dialogues about the Civil war are mostly removed and Elisif doesen't talk about Ulfric anymore.

There ya go.Perfect ending.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Actually,if youre on PC you can have anything.In my savegame Ulfric is dead and gone.
Im using a mod - Ulfric dies during the siege of Solitude,making him a super giga mega big Nord Hero,And you,as the dragonborn take the Stormcloak armies(Since youre nicknamed Stormblade,it is almost Lore-fitting)Galmar is Jarl of Windhelm nd Elisif is on the row for High Queen.The NPC dialogues about the Civil war are mostly removed and Elisif doesen't talk about Ulfric anymore.

There ya go.Perfect ending.

Yeah, but modding NPCs dead and stuff isn't really connected to Lore.

 

[Jeremius]

As I have said before (And cannot find now), The Civil War is less about facts and more about RP. If you respect Ulfric but believe the Empire is better for Skyrim, you will likely join the Imperials.