Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

There is one, he's an Altmer called Runil. You'll find him in Falkreath.
His dialogue and journal proves that he is one of the - or possibly even the only - survivor(s). The only thing left open would be if he actually was in the Capital of Cyrodiil, 'cause the journal only indicates that he was one of the guys in Bravil, leading some mage group into battle. On the other hand, Lore states that the Thalmor intended to take the Empire down and sent as many forces there as possible, we don't know to what degree they kept occupying conquered cities. And how would he escape the Thalmor anyway, or the Dominion's territory? Seems to me they keep their borders guarded quite well, not a surprise considering the circumstances though.

I must say it's quite a shame you can't ask more of him, after killing so many people he's one of the few NPCs in Skyrim that actually have some life in them and in a way I do feel sorry for him. It appears that he's getting almost humanely emotional about deaths these days, even the deaths of strangers. Damn you Bethesda, at least release a book with spaceless pre-Skyrim Lore content. ><

His journal mentions 'Dreams of the war again, but this time something different.
I was leading a small band of Aldmeri battlemages on a mission deep into the heart of Imperial territory. We had drawn near our target, a supply depot outside of Cheydinhal, when the sky suddenly darkened.'

and My only fear is the Thalmor. I have heard that they and their agents are abroad in Skyrim, rooting out worshippers of Talos. I must be sure to keep a low profile.

He seems to be hiding from the Thalmor, which could indicate desertion.

A city falling doesn't always mean occupation, when the objective was the capture of the Imperial City. After the capture of the Imperial City, during the Battle of the Red Ring only two places that mention Aldmeri presence is Skingrad & Bravil where the Aldmeri counter attacked from and lost against the Nord Legions.

Though one has to remember, the Aldmeri were in Cyrodiil on a Military campaign, strategical value takes precedence over complete occupation. Skingrad has strategic value due to the proximity to Valenwood, Bravil has strategic value due to the waterway that leads to Lake Rumare where naval battles took place. Thalmor were invading Cyrodiil to capture the Imperial City, wasting resources and man power for occupation over every city is useless, especially since the Legions were pushed to the Imperial City. The book does mention they bypassed a city completely, indication that occupation of minor cities were not high priority.

Causing a city to fall and occupation are two different things, cities do have a host of men at arms that can be called to battle in times of crisis, seen in Oblivion where the cities send soldiers to Bruma. Reason of attacking those cities would be to stop any ability for harassing attacks. At least that makes sense to me in my limited ability of strategy.

 

[NENALATA]

Causing a city to fall and occupation are two different things, cities do have a host of men at arms that can be called to battle in times of crisis, seen in Oblivion where the cities send soldiers to Bruma. Reason of attacking those cities would be to stop any ability for harassing attacks. At least that makes sense to me in my limited ability of strategy.

They sent re-enforcements from Bravil and Skingrad... Southern Hammerfell was occupied... The Thalmor conquered every Imperial City in Southern Cyrodil... One city at a time, then marched on IC. They didn't just bypass the cities, except for maybe Chorrol.

So, Anvil, Skingrad, Bravil and Leyawin were taken by the Thalmor. The cities were occupied and under the control of the Thalmor. Same with IC. Like rimfaxe said, the Thalmor wanted the Empire out of Cyrodil. The occupied cities then became "rallying points" for the Thalmor to control Southern Cyrodil on their way to IC. Which wasn't originally their goal but taking over all of Cyrodil DID become one of their goals. When TMII fled to the North, they came to him and wanted peace then and there, with the cities they had. IF the Thalmor had not had complete control over Southern Cyrodil and IC, then why press for peace? Just to have IC and let every other city go back to the Empire in Cyrodil? Not quite.

If they conquered the cities, they occupied them, did the same with IC. This argument won't work with Hammerfell because it specifically says those cities were occupied. It does say the Thalmor's goal shifted from Hammerfell to take the Empire out once and for all, which means in order to do, you have to occupy it's cities and control the lands around them. Otherwise, why siege at all? Just to say, "Oh snap, we were just kidding guys"~! when the gates finally fall? I don't think so.

Maybe the Empire got them back after WGC, maybe the Empire just signed the WGC and didn't care. Could have gone either way but it makes no mention of the Thalmor pulling out of Cyrodil, so the Thalmor themselves weren't actually defeated in Cyrodil. Just the Main army. Which is good in the short run but the Emperor pressed for peace too early.

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ALL HAIL THE DOMINION​

ALL HAIL THE SEPTIM EMPIRE​

ALL HAIL THE MADGOD​

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[DrunkenMage]

They sent re-enforcements from Bravil and Skingrad... Southern Hammerfell was occupied... The Thalmor conquered every Imperial City in Southern Cyrodil... One city at a time, then marched on IC. They didn't just bypass the cities, except for maybe Chorrol.

Reinforcements came from Thalmor Leadership, which would mean outside of Cyrodiil. Gathering in Southern Cyrodiil would mean they came from hidden camps in Elsweyr. Aldmeri counter attacked from Bravil and Skingrad, not sending reinforcements but counter attacking with the forces from those locations. Skingrad & Bravil hold strategic value, due to the proximity to the Imperial City and Aldmeri borders. It also says they were beaten, the forces sent from the two only cities in which it mentions Aldmeri presence.

They bypassed Kvatch, it was left untouched.

So, Anvil, Skingrad, Bravil and Leyawin were taken by the Thalmor. The cities were occupied and under the control of the Thalmor. Same with IC. Like rimfaxe said, the Thalmor wanted the Empire out of Cyrodil. The occupied cities then became "rallying points" for the Thalmor to control Southern Cyrodil on their way to IC. Which wasn't originally their goal but taking over all of Cyrodil DID become one of their goals. When TMII fled to the North, they came to him and wanted peace then and there, with the cities they had. IF the Thalmor had not had complete control over Southern Cyrodil and IC, then why press for peace? Just to have IC and let every other city go back to the Empire in Cyrodil? Not quite.

The cities weren't occupied, not every single city. They are only occupied if it says they're occupied. The Thalmor wanted to overthrow the Empire and capture the Imperial City, that became their primary objective. Occupation of cities would be a waste of resources and man power unless they held strategic value. Anvil isn't that important for occupation, Leyawiin is too far south. Skingrad and Bravil are the only place lore mentions where Aldmeri forces were.

The Thalmor did have complete control over Southern Cyrodiil, you don't need to occupy every location of something to have complete control. They had pushed the Imperial army to the walls of the Imperial City and then far north. There wouldn't be a need for full occupation, especially when waging war on two fronts. You take what is of strategic value during the war, then when your battles are finished you can start occupation.

If they conquered the cities, they occupied them, did the same with IC. This argument won't work with Hammerfell because it specifically says those cities were occupied. It does say the Thalmor's goal shifted from Hammerfell to take the Empire out once and for all, which means in order to do, you have to occupy it's cities and control the lands around them. Otherwise, why siege at all? Just to say, "Oh snap, we were just kidding guys"~! when the gates finally fall? I don't think so.

[/quote]

Capture of the Imperial City was the objective. To overthrow the Empire, generally you really need the Imperial City first and foremost.

If you're invading on two fronts, occupation of every single city would simply continue to weaken your forces as you advanced. Causing a city to fall and moving on isn't something new to warfare, just because you besiege something it doesn't mean you exactly need to occupy it. There are many reasons to take out fortified locations, so they don't threaten your flank, but once the threat is removed you don't need to exactly place forces in it. Not like the walls will attack you.

Southern Hammerfell was occupied due to a few factors, one being they were too weakened to advance any further, so they were staying put. The Imperial Legions under General Decianus met them outside Skaven in a bloody and indecisive clash. Decianus withdrew and left Arannelya in possession of Skaven, but the Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance.

Second being when their army was forced to retreat to south by the Legion soldiers and Alik'r warriors. In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors.

If you take a look at a map of Cyrodiil, this will be my last attempt to debate this topic regarding the Great War, but hopefully this will give you an idea of why Skingrad & Bravil were occupied and why the other cities weren't.

If you were a Thalmor General, and your orders were the capture of the Imperial City and the complete overthrow of the Empire. Basically, you need the Imperial City for the Ruby Throne. You also need Titus Mede II dead or surrendered, else the Legions would merely keep fighting until the death.

Reason why Titus Mede II's surrender is important, Imperial Legions (while some in this thread call them cowards, due to not knowing all that much about them.) they will sacrifice themselves for the Emperor. It has happened on two occasions I can recall, first being the Tenth Legion during the invasion of Akavir. Second being the Eighth Legion during the Great War.

Now, looking at that map. What holds strategic value for you when your first objective is the Imperial City? As noted in the Great War, they attacked by land and had naval battles on the lake. So which city is good for your soldiers moving by land and which is good for your ships?

Anyone with even basic strategy should be able to see it.

 

[NENALATA]

NENALATA said: ↑

They sent re-enforcements from Bravil and Skingrad... Southern Hammerfell was occupied... The Thalmor conquered every Imperial City in Southern Cyrodil... One city at a time, then marched on IC. They didn't just bypass the cities, except for maybe Chorrol.​

Reinforcements came from Thalmor Leadership, which would mean outside of Cyrodiil. Gathering in Southern Cyrodiil would mean they came from hidden camps in Elsweyr. Aldmeri counter attacked from Bravil and Skingrad, not sending reinforcements but counter attacking with the forces from those locations. Skingrad & Bravil hold strategic value, due to the proximity to the Imperial City and Aldmeri borders. It also says they were beaten, the forces sent from the two only cities in which it mentions Aldmeri presence.

They bypassed Kvatch, it was left untouched.

If the Thalmor re-enforcements from Elsweyr are rallying in Southern Cyrodil then it stands to reason the strategic purpose (in this case) for taking Bravil and Skingrad was to keep the supply lines protected for the campaign against the Empire in Cyrodil. The Thalmor had no way of knowing they would lose IC, therefore, there's no reason for them to send every single soldier in those two cities into IC. Not if their mission was to keep the supply lines open, which is why those soldiers were sent ~ To prevent IC from being surrounded in an effort to keep the channels open. Furthermore, Elves think in long terms... they would have left a rear-guard in those two cities, not abandoned them with the Empire's primary army in vicinity. Anyone with even an understanding of basic strategy should be able to see this.

I have never said anything about Kvatch, perhaps the city was rebuilt, or not. If so, then they probably were in the same situation as Chorrol. That however, really is speculation. Sources online claim that Kvatch was rebuilt and everyone in the city was put to the sword by the Dominion Army. You can Google it if you wish. Not a lot of info really. Some say they made it. I dunno on this one.

NENALATA said: ↑

So, Anvil, Skingrad, Bravil and Leyawin were taken by the Thalmor. The cities were occupied and under the control of the Thalmor. Same with IC. Like rimfaxe said, the Thalmor wanted the Empire out of Cyrodil. The occupied cities then became "rallying points" for the Thalmor to control Southern Cyrodil on their way to IC. Which wasn't originally their goal but taking over all of Cyrodil DID become one of their goals. When TMII fled to the North, they came to him and wanted peace then and there, with the cities they had. IF the Thalmor had not had complete control over Southern Cyrodil and IC, then why press for peace? Just to have IC and let every other city go back to the Empire in Cyrodil? Not quite.​

The cities weren't occupied, not every single city. They are only occupied if it says they're occupied. The Thalmor wanted to overthrow the Empire and capture the Imperial City, that became their primary objective. Occupation of cities would be a waste of resources and man power unless they held strategic value. Anvil isn't that important for occupation, Leyawiin is too far south. Skingrad and Bravil are the only place lore mentions where Aldmeri forces were.

The Thalmor did have complete control over Southern Cyrodiil, you don't need to occupy every location of something to have complete control. They had pushed the Imperial army to the walls of the Imperial City and then far north. There wouldn't be a need for full occupation, especially when waging war on two fronts. You take what is of strategic value during the war, then when your battles are finished you can start occupation.

Now, I know that I don't have to remind you about this:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

Furthermore, I understand you're playing it safe by going by EXACTLY WHAT IS SAID. That is respectable, I suppose. But that's not enough. Somewhere in here you have to start thinking and recognizing patters and relationships. This is one of the first things they taught us in AI/Algorithm/Data Mining classes. Use the Data you have and turn Information into Knowledge. If this is what you think, then I believe in Free-thought. However, if you start trying to say that this can't be because it "doesn't say this is exactly what happened" then can never be 100% Right. Then again, if you compare what happened in Hammerfell with the Thalmor's motives/actions in Hammerfell, with what we know about what happened in Cyrodil, then it's Crystal Clear:

- From Hammerfell, Bravil and Skingrad we know that the Thalmor Occupy Cities
- Occupy meaning, they were besieged and conquered by force, then held afterwards with force - This wouldn't require the Primary Army to stay in each city
- We know they Occupy Cities and then press forward with the intention to Conquer Regions
- This enables them to Occupy more cities
- Of course, by their actions at IC, tormenting the populace, it's also reasonable (and re-enforced by Lore sources) to conclude this was done to the cities they took
- This action kept the populace in check or reduced it's size to support the Thalmor's Primary Mission of expansion

Let's also not forget that Anvil and Leyawin were also taken as well by the Dominion. And Leyawin would have needed to be Occupied by the Dominion to prevent the IC from being re-supplied by sea. Anvil too, would have needed to be Occupied to support the Thalmor's war effort in Hammerfell.

Although, I can't imagine why... if this is difficult to understand for you, consider how the Japanese did China during and before WWII. Occupation is a REQUIREMENT for DOMINATION == CONQUEST of another Civilization.

NENALATA said: ↑

If they conquered the cities, they occupied them, did the same with IC. This argument won't work with Hammerfell because it specifically says those cities were occupied. It does say the Thalmor's goal shifted from Hammerfell to take the Empire out once and for all, which means in order to do, you have to occupy it's cities and control the lands around them. Otherwise, why siege at all? Just to say, "Oh snap, we were just kidding guys"~! when the gates finally fall? I don't think so.​

Capture of the Imperial City was the objective. To overthrow the Empire, generally you really need the Imperial City first and foremost.

If you're invading on two fronts, occupation of every single city would simply continue to weaken your forces as you advanced. Causing a city to fall and moving on isn't something new to warfare, just because you besiege something it doesn't mean you exactly need to occupy it. There are many reasons to take out fortified locations, so they don't threaten your flank, but once the threat is removed you don't need to exactly place forces in it. Not like the walls will attack you.

Southern Hammerfell was occupied due to a few factors, one being they were too weakened to advance any further, so they were staying put. The Imperial Legions under General Decianus met them outside Skaven in a bloody and indecisive clash. Decianus withdrew and left Arannelya in possession of Skaven, but the Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance.

Second being when their army was forced to retreat to south by the Legion soldiers and Alik'r warriors. In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors.

If you take a look at a map of Cyrodiil, this will be my last attempt to debate this topic regarding the Great War, but hopefully this will give you an idea of why Skingrad & Bravil were occupied and why the other cities weren't.

If you were a Thalmor General, and your orders were the capture of the Imperial City and the complete overthrow of the Empire. Basically, you need the Imperial City for the Ruby Throne. You also need Titus Mede II dead or surrendered, else the Legions would merely keep fighting until the death.

Reason why Titus Mede II's surrender is important, Imperial Legions (while some in this thread call them cowards, due to not knowing all that much about them.) they will sacrifice themselves for the Emperor. It has happened on two occasions I can recall, first being the Tenth Legion during the invasion of Akavir. Second being the Eighth Legion during the Great War.

Now, looking at that map. What holds strategic value for you when your first objective is the Imperial City? As noted in the Great War, they attacked by land and had naval battles on the lake. So which city is good for your soldiers moving by land and which is good for your ships?

Anyone with even basic strategy should be able to see it.

If you take a look at a map of Cyrodiil, this will be my last attempt to debate this topic regarding the Great War, but hopefully this will give you an idea of why Skingrad & Bravil were occupied and why the other cities weren't.

Reinforcements came from Thalmor Leadership, which would mean outside of Cyrodiil. Gathering in Southern Cyrodiil would mean they came from hidden camps in Elsweyr. Aldmeri counter attacked from Bravil and Skingrad, not sending reinforcements but counter attacking with the forces from those locations. Skingrad & Bravil hold strategic value, due to the proximity to the Imperial City and Aldmeri borders. It also says they were beaten, the forces sent from the two only cities in which it mentions Aldmeri presence.

So then... as the Highest Ranking Imperial on this forum, (or at least one of the Highest) you no longer wish to debate this topic anymore and you recognize that Bravil and Skingrad were indeed, Occupied by the Dominion. You accept these Elven ideals and wish the war to end. Granted.

By the Authority of the Aldmeri Dominion granted unto me as High Justiciar, On behalf of the Dominion, I Now Accept the Empire's Surrender of this topic and hereby Declare the WGC to be Signed between our two Great Empires.​

*LONG LIVE THE DOMINION ~ LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE*​

That said, I am glad to see that you finally have admitted that Skingrad and Bravil were Conquered and Occupied by the Dominion. I remember how you and others fought me on this tooth and nail, denying this fact. Let's not forget that it was I, who discovered this info in the book, "http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War" and brought into the discussion. Esp the fact that re-enforcements were sent from Bravil and Skingrad to aid IC.

If you have such a problem with these cities being besieged and Occupied, please consider the possibility that everyone in all or some of these cities may have been just put to the sword or the cities themselves sacked and/or razed.

It would depend on their value to the Dominion's Strategic goals.

However, I'll square with ya DrunkeMage. I lost my temper back there and it's not very Altmer like of me, neither is explaining myself to a 'man', however in my life, I work some very ermm LONG HOURS every day. So, from now on I may just keep to posting on the weekend or towards the end of the week. Granted other have done FAR WORSE on here than I did and I never received any acknowledgement of guilt. However, these were not Elven or Khajits, so they are not to be taken serious anyways.

Besides, I still have to get thru New Vegas and Skyrim before ESO comes out.

Then again, you know, there's alot of talk on here about truth and what is truth? Is it a piece of info taken from a respectable authority? Or is it the knowledge gained from a deeper understanding of that information? Could be a little of both. However, one thing is for absolute certain, one thing is undeniable, it cannot be hid, it cannot be rid~ Good bye DrunkenMage or should I say... until next time? MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

ELVEN SUPREMACY IS THE ONLY TRUTH​

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ALL HAIL THE DOMINION​

ALL HAIL THE SEPTIM EMPIRE​

ALL HAIL THE MADGOD​

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This is indeed a great day. Please, everyone, enjoy two of my favorite vids and make sure and have some cake this weekend:​

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[DrunkenMage]

If the Thalmor re-enforcements from Elsweyr are rallying in Southern Cyrodil then it stands to reason the strategic purpose (in this case) for taking Bravil and Skingrad was to keep the supply lines protected for the campaign against the Empire in Cyrodil. The Thalmor had no way of knowing they would lose IC, therefore, there's no reason for them to send every single soldier in those two cities into IC. Not if their mission was to keep the supply lines open, which is why those soldiers were sent ~ To prevent IC from being surrounded in an effort to keep the channels open. Furthermore, Elves think in long terms... they would have left a rear-guard in those two cities, not abandoned them with the Empire's primary army in vicinity. Anyone with even an understanding of basic strategy should be able to see this.

When the Empire throws everything it has into one battle, would it not be reasonable to believe that the Aldmeri would also, being that battle would decide in Imperial or Thalmor victory over Cyrodiil.

With the main Aldmeri army about to be surrounded and cut off with at least fifteen Legions descending down upon their Thalmor Lord.

Looking at strategy, they would send their forces from those cities. No point in keeping a city when the enemy's forces are all out in the open in one spot. The Empire doesn't need to besiege each city if the Thalmor are inside it. They could merely wait, Altmer need to eat too.

I have never said anything about Kvatch, perhaps the city was rebuilt, or not. If so, then they probably were in the same situation as Chorrol. That however, really is speculation. Sources online claim that Kvatch was rebuilt and everyone in the city was put to the sword by the Dominion Army. You can Google it if you wish. Not a lot of info really. Some say they made it. I dunno on this one.

You said every city was occupied before. Kvatch would of been rebuilt, it wouldn't of been given a mention otherwise.

Now, I know that I don't have to remind you about this:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

Furthermore, I understand you're playing it safe by going by EXACTLY WHAT IS SAID. That is respectable, I suppose. But that's not enough. Somewhere in here you have to start thinking and recognizing patters and relationships. This is one of the first things they taught us in AI/Algorithm/Data Mining classes. Use the Data you have and turn Information into Knowledge. If this is what you think, then I believe in Free-thought. However, if you start trying to say that this can't be because it "doesn't say this is exactly what happened" then can never be 100% Right. Then again, if you compare what happened in Hammerfell with the Thalmor's motives/actions in Hammerfell, with what we know about what happened in Cyrodil, then it's Crystal Clear:

- From Hammerfell, Bravil and Skingrad we know that the Thalmor Occupy Cities
- Occupy meaning, they were besieged and conquered by force, then held afterwards with force - This wouldn't require the Primary Army to stay in each city
- We know they Occupy Cities and then press forward with the intention to Conquer Regions
- This enables them to Occupy more cities
- Of course, by their actions at IC, tormenting the populace, it's also reasonable (and re-enforced by Lore sources) to conclude this was done to the cities they took
- This action kept the populace in check or reduced it's size to support the Thalmor's Primary Mission of expansion

Although, I can't imagine why... if this is difficult to understand for you, consider how the Japanese did China during and before WWII. Occupation is a REQUIREMENT for DOMINATION == CONQUEST of another Civilization.

Hammerfell was supposed to be occupied, it was part of the original demands. They wanted Southern Hammerfell. In Cyrodiil they wanted to occupy the Imperial City and overthrow the Empire.

Hammerfell and Cyrodiil are two different campaigns, two different objectives. Just because they're part of the same war, doesn't mean the objectives and methods used are interchangeable.

Well, first of all, what is that you like to say? "Don't give me a mug of sheep's piss?" Ok, that's great ~ Please return the favor and don't give me one either.

So you no longer wish to debate this topic anymore. Fine with me, you're welcome to debate whatever you like, same as myself. This is a free forum and if I wish to debate this with another user or use it as an example, I will.

No one is saying what you should debate, we have covered this one issue several times. Several times it has been shot down, the argument which I have no idea if you have forgotten is your argument that the Dominion control majority of Cyrodiil post Great War.

That said, I am glad to see that you finally have admitted that Skingrad and Bravil were Conquered and Occupied by the Dominion. I remember how you and others fought me on this tooth and nail. Let's not forget that it was I, who discovered this info in the book, "http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War" and brought into the discussion.

I have been saying Skingrad & Bravil for quite sometime? Not exactly finally admitting it, if I have been saying it for several posts now.

Esp the fact that re-enforcements were sent from Bravil and Skingrad to aid IC. Let's also not forget that Anvil and Leyawin were also taken as well by the Dominion.

If you have such a problem with these cities being besieged and Occupied, consider the possibility that everyone in all or some of these cities may have been just put to the sword or the cities themselves sacked and/or razed.

It would depend on their value to the Dominion's Strategic goals.

It isn't that I have a problem, it is the fact your argument is that the Aldmeri Dominion control majority of Cyrodiil during the events of 4E 201 and that the Dominion's border is at the Imperial City.

Which I have been saying repeatedly, something on that scale would be mentioned in lore. What the book states is that in Cyrodiil, Imperial forces were victorious.

Even if they occupied those cities, which it doesn't mention, it only mentions two being occupied. Even if they did and your argument that they occupied them is correct, what makes you think they would still be there?

The Empire had their entire army in Cyrodiil, and the war didn't end until late in the year. Battle of the Red Ring occurred on Rains Hand (April) but the war itself didn't end until late in the year. So would the Aldmeri retreat from Cyrodiil to regroup on their borders to form a defense in case the Empire was crazy enough to attack. Or would they leave forces in cities in which the Empire can merely sit there outside the cities. Smoking, eating and having an easy time, while Aldmeri troops grow hungry without any means of gaining supplies?

At first it may seem like a perfect idea, occupation of a fort or walled city, good spot for defending the region. When on the attack, advancing your forces to something like the Imperial City which if anyone has played Oblivion will know the Imperial City is like a fortress within a fortress within a fortress, you have to besiege every single district to reach the middle. It wouldn't be good to weaken your numbers to spread yourself across Cyrodiil, when facing a great challenge.

Now the issues of maintaining a garrison for the Thalmor would be they're fighting two campaigns and battle in Hammerfell isn't going well. Resources and man power needed to maintain a city stronghold would be demanding to say the least, especially if by your example they're going to take possession of locations that don't offer strategical advantage for their current objective.

If you do look at the map of Cyrodiil, simply ask yourself what offers strategical advantage and what doesn't. Naarifin's orders are the capture of the Imperial City and overthrow of the Empire. Thalmor are nothing if not predictable when it comes to following orders to the letter and Naarifin isn't as much of a fool as I would hope, he would be if he spread his forces thin to locations that don't offer him anything.

As much as I would love to debate military strategy with you. I tend to avoid it with most Thalmor supporters, though oddly enough Harc seemed fairly agreeable.

 

[Ted_The_Soap]

I have played all the way through the war on both sides, and i prefer to side with the Empire.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

I have played all the way through the war on both sides, and i prefer to side with the Empire.

Welcome to team Imperial. We're the only faction with enough lore provided to make any other faction look like only idiots would join it. Perhaps Bethesda is Imperial as well...

 

[Raijin]

To the oblivion with the Imperials/Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion! They're all the same, as one!

Trying to say that Talos is not an acceptable word, Bah!

 

[Rimfaxe96]

To the oblivion with the Imperials/Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion! They're all the same, as one!

As much as I honor Talos, here's my opinion about your Stormcloaks:

 

[Raijin]

To the oblivion with the Imperials/Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion! They're all the same, as one!

As much as I honor Talos, here's my opinion about your Stormcloaks:

Yes were happy for our cause

 

[DrunkenMage]

Imperials are the rightful rulers.

 

[Raijin]

No the vampires are the rightful rulers because they're much older.

 

[Baldur Red-Snow]

Here's what I have to say on the subject. It's a lot:

Spoiler

The Empire is perfect, has the best chance against the Thalmor, and has no racism and promotes equality for everyone!​

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http://forums.bethso...and/?p=22918846​

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The moral and governing failures of the Empire​

There have been multiple examples of the Empire's failings in history to their people. The relevant ones I'll give are Valenwood, and Morrowind, then later Hammerfell.

"In 4E 29, the government of Valenwood was overthrown by Thalmor collaborators and a union with Alinor proclaimed. It appears that Thalmor agents had formed close ties to certain Bosmeri factions even before the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire and its Bosmer allies, caught completely off guard, were quickly defeated by the much-better prepared Altmer forces that invaded Valenwood on the heels of the coup. Thus was the Aldmeri Dominion reborn." -The Great War (book)

This was likely possible due to the early negligence of the Empire during the Imperial Simulacrum, which admittedly was not the Empire's fault, as the Emperor was at the time held captive and was replaced by Jagar Tharn. But even after this happened, the Empire allowed themselves to be caught off guard by the Thalmor, and had no idea that they had secretly sided with Bosmer in Valenwood, and was completely taken by surprise when they decided to take it. Now, this was a simple error on their part, and no one can truly blame them for this, as the Thalmor are crafty and no one saw this coming. Even so, the civilians in Valenwood are the ones who are paying, as the game has hinted to us through Delphine that the Thalmor are doing some Ethic Cleansing. But After something like this, and after the Khajiit seceded to join the Dominion after they claimed they returned the moons that disappeared (the moons are a big part of Khajiit culture), you'd think the Empire would have taken the Thalmor as a more serious threat.

Go back a bit and look at Morrowind. During the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire, according to the DLC "Dragonborn", abandoned their provinces in an attempt to protect Cyrodil. They left Morrowind among other provinces unprotected to save themselves, and left everyone to the mercy of the Daedra. Morrowind citizens now resent the Empire despite it not being the same Dynasty. The developers made it a point for us to see that in game npc's still treat this Empire as the Third and same Empire, despite this one being the Mede Dynasty.This is likely because even though the Emperor is different, the way the Empire or maybe the Elder Council operates is inherently the same. An example of this is Hammerfell.

Hammerfell during the Great War was attacked simultaneously with Cyrodiil by the Thalmor. Hammerfell at the time was in a state of constant infighting (note that they interfered in Skyrim's infighting, but not Hammerfell's) and were taken by surprise when the Thalmor came in. Later during the war when the Thalmor sacked the Imperial city, the Empire ordered General Decianus to abandon his post and return to the Imperial City. If it were up to the ones in charge, the Empire would have completely abandoned Hammerfell right then and there. Luckily, the General decided to disobey his order, and discharged a large force of "invalids" to fight in Hammerfell.

All this shows that even though the Empire has not always been under the same dynasty, they still treat their provinces the same. As expendable. Valenwood was simply an error on their part, but when you look at all these failings, it is clear that the Empire is just unable to protect their provinces whether it be their fault or not.

After the heroic efforts of the Nords, Imperials and Bretons, even admittedly Titus Mede himself, the Empire finally took back the Imperial city. After this happened, the Empire signed the infamous White Gold Concordat, which would 1. Outlaw Talos Worship, and 2. Give away almost Half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor (admittedly already occupied by the elves.) While the Empire themselves could not afford to fight on, neither could the Thalmor. I used to believe that they could not know the Thalmor were as weak as they were, but the Great War book states that the info in the book was taken from the Thalmor themselves:

Author's Note: Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers.

And the book clearly states:


In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all.

This means the Empire had a good idea of the Thalmor's state, but bought into their bluff anyway when they signed the White Gold Concordat. The Redguards of Hammerfell did not wish to give up their land so easy and wanted to fight on. The Empire instead of at least giving supplies to the Redguards or some kind of non combatant support instead just completely dropped Hammerfell as a province. They say they were forced, but the Thalmor, as they apparently knew, could not force anything. The Thalmor wouldn't be in any position to assault Cyrodiil for sending supplies even if they wanted to. You may be thinking that the Empire would need those supplies to rebuild, and you'd be right. But the cost of a whole Province being lost is greater than at least meager support of military supplies so Hammerfell could defend itself, and take back it's land. Now the Empire is out yet another Province, and they only have two, not counting Cyrodiil.

To reiterate.

http://forums.bethso...orn/?p=22489750

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The “Skyrim cannot survive alone”-argument​

This one is one of the simpler arguments to debunk, because any high school dropout can look at the map and see how silly this argument is. Here. http://www.google.co...9QEwAA&dur=1510

Lets look at the two ways a military force can invade a territory. The first possibility is by Land. If the Thalmor were to attempt this, they'd need to go through either Morrowind (not allies of the Thalmor, and never have been, plus Argonians occupy part of it and are fighting the Dark Elves) or Hammerfell (obviously hostile to the Dominion) or through Cyrodiil. Now many say that there's the solution. The Thalmor have a treaty with the Empire, and they are allowed through Cyrodiil and Skyrim. Two things. One, the Justiciars are allowed, and two, whole armies are clearly not. How do I know this? Tullius himself says at the Empire is currently guarding it's border to watch for an attack from the Dominion. Think about that for a sec. If the Thalmor were allowed to walts in whenever they wanted, why the hell is the Empire wasting their time guarding their borders? It makes no sense. Clearly the deal of the Thalmor in their territory extends solely to Justiciars for hunting down "heretics" not their whole army.

Now look at Skyrim's natural barriers. Mountains. The worst kind. You cannot sustain an flow of troops and supplies through a mountain range. Not easily anyway. Couple that with the intense weather, and you have a complete supply chain disaster. Now, the Thalmor, assuming they actually did get through Cyrodiil in whatever fashion still would have trouble getting through even if they used the Pale Pass, due to it's treacherous reputation. Here's an example of how it caused trouble for Tullius during the Stormcloak rebellion:

%5B5%5D In 4E 201, the Pale Pass was closed due to avalanches, preventing Imperial reinforcements from helping to secure Falkreath Hold under Imperial control during the Stormcloak Rebellion.%5B6%5D%5B7%5D

In short, a land invasion is highly unlikely in the current situation. I didn't even talk about the obvious disadvantage of fighting in a cold climate that the Thalmor are not at all used to fighting in (their homeland is SUMMERSET ISLE for Talos's sake) against a people who are literally magically resistant to cold weather and magic.

Now lets look at what the Thalmor are actually good at. Naval invasion. The Thalmor are known to have the most advanced and powerful naval force in Tamriel. But even the most advanced naval ships cannot successfully invade without a safe port nearby to house reinforcements and supplies to sustain the attack. See how far away Summerset Isle is? It would be comically impractical to invade Skyrim from this far away, whether that be by land or sea. Even our real life history proves this fact to be true. The Thalmor can't set one on the coast of Skyrim to the North because one, they'd be under constant attack, and two, the Sea of Ghosts is as the name suggests extremely treacherous. They don't have any islands nearby to do this either. The only possibility they have is to anger the Dark Elves as well, and take one of those islands that are literally on the opposite side of Tamriel from Summerset Isle. Then they'd be fighting two nearby nations at the same time, and this time one of them is magically adept, and are as tough as the Nords are. So without a true safe port, this invasion tactic is even more unlikely to succeed.

This is why I personally laugh at those who say "without the Empire in Skyrim, the Stormcloaks are doomed." The Nords could literally sit back and gulp down some Black-Briar mead while the land does the fighting for them.

The “racist” accusations towards Ulfric and the "racist" accusations towards the Stormcloak faction​

Nothing gives me a headache more than debating over this. Before I start, I would like to show you the definition of "racism".

• The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
• Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

First off, I'd like to say almost everyone in this game is "technically" racist, because they believe certain races are good at certain things, and discriminate against them because of it. Whether that be Nords thinking elves are physically weak, or Imperials thinking Nords are axe swinging barbarians, or Altmer thinking men as a whole are less intellegent. Only thing is, in Tamriel, some of these things are based from truth! But lets assume it is not, and look at the claims of racism to the Stormcloaks.

1. The Stormcloaks don't allow Khajiit in the city.

First of all, the Nords as a whole don't let the caravans in cities because they have a reputation of selling skooma, moonsugar, and thieving. I can't prove that they steal, but anyone can go up to them and see that they sell skooma and moonsugar, and if you listen, they can be heard among themselves complaining about "shakes" from not having any moonsugar. So on top of dealing, they also are users.

2. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"

All Nords say this battlecry. Even the Nords in the legion. It is a generic cry that can be heard from all nord npc's and should not be taken as racist. Nords as a whole are actually Nationalist and Xenophobic. Meaning they take great pride in their heretical history and background, and they are distrusting of outsiders. Not certain races, but outsiders. Even as a nord, the player can sometimes have a stormcloak in Windhelm say "You better not be an Imperial spy!" Now, some Nords are clearly racist, but this should not be generalised to all. Xenophobia and Nationalism are regulalry mistaken for racism.

3. Stormcloaks hate all elves

This is the easiest to debunk. Firstly, there is a difference between racism and prejudice. If the Stormcloaks truly hated all elves, why are there not one, not two, not three, but four Altmer npcs in the city who are not only not in the grey quarters, but are merchants? One of them says the Dunmer have themselves to blame because they are not willing to do what it takes to gain the nord's respect. Some of the Dunmer are though, as one from house Hlaalu owns a farm, and the other works on the farm and clearly dislikes the complaining his people does ans he refers to his brother saying he'd rather work than to "harp on about injustices" like his brother. Keep in mind that the Dunmer even has Nords in Windhelm working for him! Now, like I said, the Nords do have some racist people like the two in the front when you first walk into Windhelm, and the dock worker who has Argonian workers, but the Stormcloak's agenda is not a racist one, although they of course have some bad apples.

Moving on to Ulfric himself, a lot of the points previously described can be applied to his so called "racism" as well. First, Ulfric did not segregate the Dunmer, the High King during the time of the Red Mountain exploding did.

http://www.uesp.net/...ree_of_Monument

"Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

This shows that Ulfric has these elves in his city, and they don't have to pay taxes, and they are supposed to be self governed. Yet they were still allowed in the city, which Ulfric still lets them stay, and they don't have to give the Nords squat in return. The poor nords in the city aren't even given free room and board.

Edit: Some game dialogue reveals that the Dunmer possibly do actually pay taxes, so this deal may have been altered over time. I'm leaving this section in in case this is only taxes from businesses, since the Dunmer in question is a business owner. At any rate, the Dunmer were given a place to stay, and originally did not pay taxes, and originally didn't have to give the Nords anything, and they let the Grey Quarter go to crap with the oppertunity.

Here's a good argument against this that suggests the Dunmer do not in fact pay taxes.

http://forums.bethso...elm/?p=22588230


Ulfric wouldn't allow Altmer in his city when he was tortured by the Thalmor if he hated elves, and he wouldn't allow Dark Elves to work in the market or own farmland if he was racist or prejudiced either. Now, one good point some people have brought up is his segregation of Argonians out of the city. The definition of racism is in fact discrimination of a race, but he is segregating them because of their people's history with the Dark elves, not because of some prejudice against them or a belief about their race. The Argonians are known for being suddenly overtaken by the hist. This is what happened when the Argonians attacked Morowind, presumably out of revenge for their slavery in Morrowind. Ulfric is in the middle of a civil war, and would be a fool to take chances of increasing civil unrest, especially if it could get violent. The Empire could easily take advantage of that with riots in the streets if this were to actually happen.

This shows that whether or not the hist example is actually true, the argonians are said to not get along with the Dunmer.

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00094186

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00047ca7

^'Tear each other apart' being a clear sign they don't like each other.

Also keep in mind that Ulfric says nothing racist or prejudiced, and there's no actual evidence of his racism or prejudice anywhere.

Ulfric is a Power-Hungry Barbarian, The “Ulfric murdered the High King”-argument, and The issue of Ulfric killing Torygg instead of talking to him.​

An argument that is commonly defended is that Ulfric is power hungry and a savage. To those who say he's power hungry, you're right. Congradulations. But is that a bad thing? I assume when people say this, they mean that he is power hungry for the sake of power alone. That is false. He wants power so that he can do what his supporters want him to, which is to save Skyrim from the Empire's influence and restore Talos worship. Don't believe me? Does this sound like the words of one who fights for the sake of having power alone?

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2A_5kBJduIg

For those of you who say he's just acting...come on, really? In his palace with the grand total of one stranger? No.

People also say him killing Torygg is proof of his hunger for power, because his court mage says he was a fan of him, and he agreed with what Ulfric was saying, and Ulfric should have talked to him first. Do you see the contradiction? Torygg's court wizard says Torygg knew of his agenda, and Ulfric stated them at the last moot to the point to where he spoke just shy of treason. Torygg, the High King of Skyrim should have said something then if he agreed. And they say he should have asked Torygg one last time before he issued his challenge, but from Ulfric's perspective this would have been stupid. He's in the middle of the Imperial seat of power in Skyrim at the mercy of the Emperor's greatest Skyrim supporter who swore an oath to him, and showed no evidence of agreeing with Ulfric at the moot, and Ulfric is supposed to risk being arrested for treason in the belly of the beast?

A counter argument to this is he just killed the High King, so obviously he didn't care about that to begin with. This is wrong, because Ulfric challenged him to a legal duel according to Skyrim's laws and would not have been arrested. A duel is a part of Nord politics, and after a duel is won, if the High King is dead, they have another moot, and pick a new High King. People say it is an outdated law, but Torygg agreed to the duel, so clearly the law is still in place. It was only an issue after the Empire came in and said it was illegal acording to Imperial law. So Ulfric went in knowing that he wouldn't be arrested for challenging the King to a duel. This is a political checkmate. Either Torygg agrees to the duel and he wins, and a moot is held, which Ulfric would have won due to being the winner, since Elisif likely would back down out of fear to him, or Torygg doesn't accept, and Ulfric has a good chance of winning due to Torygg looking weak. Either way if the Empire did not interfere, Ulfric may very well have been the new High King.

This does not sound like the workings of a savage to me. It sounds like one who knows his people's politics and knew how to play them well. People may think he's savage only because of the nature of the Nordic politics, which is outdated compared to non combat loving countries. Ulfric can't be held accountable for playing the politics. He didn't make the rules. And as said before, Ulfric did not murder the High King, he fought Torygg in a duel. Whether you think it was dishonorable or what have you is a different issue. Torygg knew that Ulfric had the Thu'um, and accepted the fight anyway. He also knew he was a seasoned warrior, and likely still would have lost the fight. To Nords, a duel to the death even with the thu'um that is revered in their culture is not dishonorable or cowardly. His use of the thu'um simply shows he was the stronger. Whether you believe that or not isn't the point. The Nords do.

Also: http://forums.bethso...-me/?p=22498185


Indeed. Which means Ulfric would have wasted his time talking further, and he made the right call.


Another piece of evidence against Ulfric is "The Bear of Markarth". http://www.uesp.net/...ear_of_Markarth

First, this book, while obvious propaganda to make Ulfric look very bad is filled with holes.

Courtesy of Tdroid:

https://docs.google....XRZWkdWbzA/edit

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00092335

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00092331

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000e1623

http://uesp.net/wiki...honar's_Journal

“Ulfric misused the Voice”​

This point is irrelevant, as the only people who follow this are the Grey Beards, and Ulfric who was training to be one was taken as a child to be one. While he does not seem to resent the Grey Beards for this, it still shows that he can't be held accountable for an oath he didn't willfully make. It is however possible that he was willing to make the oath, but he was still a child, and this was before his home was in turmoil. The Thu'um is clearly a weapon meant to be used. In the Nord pantheon, Kynareth, or Kyne to the Nords is a warrior goddess:

Jump to: navigation, search
Kyne (Kiss At The End), or Kaan in the dragon language, is the Nordic goddess of the Storm, widow of Shor, Warrior-Wife, and a favored god of warriors

Why would a warrior goddess give the Nords a power that is clearly meant as a weapon to be passive? Jurgen Windcaller only suddenly "realised this" after the Dunmer whooped him silly, then forced other Thu'umers into his way of thinking, claiming the gods punished them for their misuse of the Thu'um. This is a clear case of "Hurtfeelioma". Even with using the Thu'um, Ulfric still says he doesn't use it lightly. Ulfric did not misuse the thu'um. The Grey Beards say otherwise, but Arngeir also thinks you're wrong for using Dragonrend on Alduin to save the world.

http://forums.bethso...rds/?p=22999537




Before people start saying stuff about oathbreaking, let me remind all that Greybeards are supposed to use their voice in times of true need:

Contrary to popular misconceptions, the Greybeards are not, strictly speaking, pacifists; the Way of the Voice teaches only that violence is the least of the Voice's uses, and it should be used for that purpose only in times of "True Need".[7]

He used it originally to fight in the great war, then again to free Markarth, then the controversial one with Torygg. That to me is true need, because he used it to rally men to his cause, which in my opinion is for true need. To make Skyrim independent and free of the WGC. You can argue against it, but there's no official rule for what true need is, so its up for interpretation. More Nords would join his cause if the leader of a rebellion used the power of the heroes of old to accomplish a goal to be like the old honored Nords. There lies the true need, more men for what he considers a good cause. Arngeir obviously forgot about the true need part:

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x0003f884

Ulfric to me seems to be the one who is following the original purpose of the Greybeards. He still seems to follow it now, as he says he knows its not to be used lightly:

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bfc41
http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bfc43
http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bfc46

He may not realize it, but really, using the voice for troubles like this is what the greybeards were supposed to do.

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The “Trade being hurt”​

Trade at first will possibly be hurt, as the court wizard of Solitude says, but it will most likely pick up again, if it even drops at all. Why?

1. The trade between the two, namely Cyrodiil and Windhelm is just too important. Both provinces will need to keep up trade, because both are dependent on resources from eachother, and both need to rebuild, especially the Empire. They can't afford to cut themselves off of Skyrim's resources.

2. The East Empire Trading Company still opperates out of Windhelm. If trade was going to be an issue, why would they still work with the rebels and trade? Either the Company despite its leaders being originally appointed by the Emperor doesn't listen to the Empire, or the Empire simply can't afford to hault trade, and neither can Skyrim.

So because of these two reasons, it seems highly unlikely that trade will cease with Skyrim. Maybe it will deteriorate temporarily, but it is doubtful. Especially when the two are in war prep for the next Great War against the Thalmor.

This dialogue suggests as much. Especially the second one:

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000665e0

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bc181

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'll reply to a few points. First, the Thalmor weren't around during the Imperial Simulacrum, perhaps you're mistaking the Imperial Simulacrum for the Stormcrown Interregnum? The Imperial Simulacrum occurred from 3E 389 - 3E 399. The Thalmor rose to power in Summerset in 4E 22 and the Aldmeri Dominion was reformed in 4E 29.

The Empire was recovering from the Oblivion Crisis and then from the Stormcloak Interregnum meaning the Empire's influence further from Cyrodiil was little. Not to mention a floating city.

Morrowind was abandoned to rush to the protection of Cyrodiil by Ocato the acting ruler of the Empire after the assassination of Uriel VII. Cyrodiil which took the brute force of the Daedric invasion, also Cyrodiil being the only location to stop the invasion. The Dunmer of Morrowind didn't want the Empire there, they resisted the Empire for some time, they got their wish and didn't like it.

The Empire doesn't change between a new Dynasty, it is the Third Empire because the Third Empire never ended.

Hammerfell was dropped as a province because it would not follow Imperial law. All of Hammerfell was united in this belief and was released from the Empire. The Thalmor didn't need to invade Cyrodiil in a large scale, they can do what they did during the Second Era and simply raid and conduct border skirmishes for the next hundred or more years, keeping the Legions constantly being harassed while law and order in the Empire falls down around them. In Cyrodiil and High Rock law and order was hard to maintain with cities erupting into violence and the city of Wayrest being lost to pirates. For the Empire to regain strength they needed the short moment of peace.

The Thalmor aren't planning to invade Skyrim, the Stormcloaks are doomed are because of something else which I'll get to. The part about the Pale pass, that isn't factual, unless you can point to me the in-game reference? The reason Tullius isn't gaining reinforcements which, Tullius himself mentions. Is because the Emperor Titus Mede II is denying Tullius the forces he wants to crush the rebellion.

"If only we weren't so overstretched… Ulfric wouldn't be a problem at all… That what comes of trying to win a war with a bare handful of legions. If only the Emperor would give me the reinforcements that I've requested of him!" - Tullius

When asked why, Tullius tells you.

"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes."

The Nords could literally sit back and gulp down some Black-Briar mead while the land does the fighting for them.

No really.

Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."

Stormcloaks aren't planning on sitting around. Tullius says it best about Ulfric. "But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius.

In regards to racial segregation, when someone tries to justify racial segregation as beneficial or for they're own good, for their protection and safety. You can clearly see how easily people defend immoral practices because of a charismatic leader.

Dunmer do pay taxes in Windhelm, that quote for the monument was Skyrim's offer to the Dunmer. "Untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor." -Skyrim's Offer of Solstheim to Morrowind, 4E 16

Windhelm isn't Solstheim, and the High King didn't segregate the Dunmer. Each Hold is largely independent and policy for within a hold comes from the Jarl, the Jarl of Eastmarch being Ulfric Stormcloak.

Argonians are not known for suddenly being overtaken by the hist? The hist can call Argonians from across the Empire, but that only occurred during the Oblivion Crisis to fight Dagon. There is no mention the Hist would suddenly, for no reason at all decide to use their influence to call the Argonians of Windhelm and go "Beat up the small number of Dark elves there"

The only race I know that gets taken over by something is the Bosmer during a wild hunt. Not to mention the issue between Argonians and Dunmer was over a hundred years ago and that Ulfric only banished the Argonians when he took the throne. So why would they suddenly have racial issues only when Ulfric took power? Why not before, why doesn't Riften follow the same example.

As for Ulfric using the Thu'um makes him stronger, I guess using firestorm in a brawl would make my character stronger. Nords value honor in battle, namely through steel.

The Bear of Markarth isn't propaganda, it is a historical text before even the Stormcloak rebellion. Simply saying it is propaganda because it doesn't make Ulfric the perfect saint is a weak argument, it started because of the authors race being Imperial. Yet the Stormcloaks deny racism, but simply dismiss books due to race.

Lore in TES comes from majority of books, unless it is contradicted by another book or something in game. So in fact the only way the Stormcloak argument of calling the Bear of Markarth propaganda would be to deny majority of TES lore.

 

[Gyrobot]

Here's what I have to say on the subject. It's a lot:

Spoiler

The Empire is perfect, has the best chance against the Thalmor, and has no racism and promotes equality for everyone!​

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http://forums.bethso...and/?p=22918846​

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The moral and governing failures of the Empire​

There have been multiple examples of the Empire's failings in history to their people. The relevant ones I'll give are Valenwood, and Morrowind, then later Hammerfell.

"In 4E 29, the government of Valenwood was overthrown by Thalmor collaborators and a union with Alinor proclaimed. It appears that Thalmor agents had formed close ties to certain Bosmeri factions even before the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire and its Bosmer allies, caught completely off guard, were quickly defeated by the much-better prepared Altmer forces that invaded Valenwood on the heels of the coup. Thus was the Aldmeri Dominion reborn." -The Great War (book)

This was likely possible due to the early negligence of the Empire during the Imperial Simulacrum, which admittedly was not the Empire's fault, as the Emperor was at the time held captive and was replaced by Jagar Tharn. But even after this happened, the Empire allowed themselves to be caught off guard by the Thalmor, and had no idea that they had secretly sided with Bosmer in Valenwood, and was completely taken by surprise when they decided to take it. Now, this was a simple error on their part, and no one can truly blame them for this, as the Thalmor are crafty and no one saw this coming. Even so, the civilians in Valenwood are the ones who are paying, as the game has hinted to us through Delphine that the Thalmor are doing some Ethic Cleansing. But After something like this, and after the Khajiit seceded to join the Dominion after they claimed they returned the moons that disappeared (the moons are a big part of Khajiit culture), you'd think the Empire would have taken the Thalmor as a more serious threat.

Go back a bit and look at Morrowind. During the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire, according to the DLC "Dragonborn", abandoned their provinces in an attempt to protect Cyrodil. They left Morrowind among other provinces unprotected to save themselves, and left everyone to the mercy of the Daedra. Morrowind citizens now resent the Empire despite it not being the same Dynasty. The developers made it a point for us to see that in game npc's still treat this Empire as the Third and same Empire, despite this one being the Mede Dynasty.This is likely because even though the Emperor is different, the way the Empire or maybe the Elder Council operates is inherently the same. An example of this is Hammerfell.

Hammerfell during the Great War was attacked simultaneously with Cyrodiil by the Thalmor. Hammerfell at the time was in a state of constant infighting (note that they interfered in Skyrim's infighting, but not Hammerfell's) and were taken by surprise when the Thalmor came in. Later during the war when the Thalmor sacked the Imperial city, the Empire ordered General Decianus to abandon his post and return to the Imperial City. If it were up to the ones in charge, the Empire would have completely abandoned Hammerfell right then and there. Luckily, the General decided to disobey his order, and discharged a large force of "invalids" to fight in Hammerfell.

All this shows that even though the Empire has not always been under the same dynasty, they still treat their provinces the same. As expendable. Valenwood was simply an error on their part, but when you look at all these failings, it is clear that the Empire is just unable to protect their provinces whether it be their fault or not.

After the heroic efforts of the Nords, Imperials and Bretons, even admittedly Titus Mede himself, the Empire finally took back the Imperial city. After this happened, the Empire signed the infamous White Gold Concordat, which would 1. Outlaw Talos Worship, and 2. Give away almost Half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor (admittedly already occupied by the elves.) While the Empire themselves could not afford to fight on, neither could the Thalmor. I used to believe that they could not know the Thalmor were as weak as they were, but the Great War book states that the info in the book was taken from the Thalmor themselves:

Author's Note: Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers.

And the book clearly states:


In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all.

This means the Empire had a good idea of the Thalmor's state, but bought into their bluff anyway when they signed the White Gold Concordat. The Redguards of Hammerfell did not wish to give up their land so easy and wanted to fight on. The Empire instead of at least giving supplies to the Redguards or some kind of non combatant support instead just completely dropped Hammerfell as a province. They say they were forced, but the Thalmor, as they apparently knew, could not force anything. The Thalmor wouldn't be in any position to assault Cyrodiil for sending supplies even if they wanted to. You may be thinking that the Empire would need those supplies to rebuild, and you'd be right. But the cost of a whole Province being lost is greater than at least meager support of military supplies so Hammerfell could defend itself, and take back it's land. Now the Empire is out yet another Province, and they only have two, not counting Cyrodiil.

To reiterate.

http://forums.bethso...orn/?p=22489750

​

​

The “Skyrim cannot survive alone”-argument​

This one is one of the simpler arguments to debunk, because any high school dropout can look at the map and see how silly this argument is. Here. http://www.google.co...9QEwAA&dur=1510

Lets look at the two ways a military force can invade a territory. The first possibility is by Land. If the Thalmor were to attempt this, they'd need to go through either Morrowind (not allies of the Thalmor, and never have been, plus Argonians occupy part of it and are fighting the Dark Elves) or Hammerfell (obviously hostile to the Dominion) or through Cyrodiil. Now many say that there's the solution. The Thalmor have a treaty with the Empire, and they are allowed through Cyrodiil and Skyrim. Two things. One, the Justiciars are allowed, and two, whole armies are clearly not. How do I know this? Tullius himself says at the Empire is currently guarding it's border to watch for an attack from the Dominion. Think about that for a sec. If the Thalmor were allowed to walts in whenever they wanted, why the hell is the Empire wasting their time guarding their borders? It makes no sense. Clearly the deal of the Thalmor in their territory extends solely to Justiciars for hunting down "heretics" not their whole army.

Now look at Skyrim's natural barriers. Mountains. The worst kind. You cannot sustain an flow of troops and supplies through a mountain range. Not easily anyway. Couple that with the intense weather, and you have a complete supply chain disaster. Now, the Thalmor, assuming they actually did get through Cyrodiil in whatever fashion still would have trouble getting through even if they used the Pale Pass, due to it's treacherous reputation. Here's an example of how it caused trouble for Tullius during the Stormcloak rebellion:

%5B5%5D In 4E 201, the Pale Pass was closed due to avalanches, preventing Imperial reinforcements from helping to secure Falkreath Hold under Imperial control during the Stormcloak Rebellion.%5B6%5D%5B7%5D

In short, a land invasion is highly unlikely in the current situation. I didn't even talk about the obvious disadvantage of fighting in a cold climate that the Thalmor are not at all used to fighting in (their homeland is SUMMERSET ISLE for Talos's sake) against a people who are literally magically resistant to cold weather and magic.

Now lets look at what the Thalmor are actually good at. Naval invasion. The Thalmor are known to have the most advanced and powerful naval force in Tamriel. But even the most advanced naval ships cannot successfully invade without a safe port nearby to house reinforcements and supplies to sustain the attack. See how far away Summerset Isle is? It would be comically impractical to invade Skyrim from this far away, whether that be by land or sea. Even our real life history proves this fact to be true. The Thalmor can't set one on the coast of Skyrim to the North because one, they'd be under constant attack, and two, the Sea of Ghosts is as the name suggests extremely treacherous. They don't have any islands nearby to do this either. The only possibility they have is to anger the Dark Elves as well, and take one of those islands that are literally on the opposite side of Tamriel from Summerset Isle. Then they'd be fighting two nearby nations at the same time, and this time one of them is magically adept, and are as tough as the Nords are. So without a true safe port, this invasion tactic is even more unlikely to succeed.

This is why I personally laugh at those who say "without the Empire in Skyrim, the Stormcloaks are doomed." The Nords could literally sit back and gulp down some Black-Briar mead while the land does the fighting for them.

The “racist” accusations towards Ulfric and the "racist" accusations towards the Stormcloak faction​

Nothing gives me a headache more than debating over this. Before I start, I would like to show you the definition of "racism".

• The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
• Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

First off, I'd like to say almost everyone in this game is "technically" racist, because they believe certain races are good at certain things, and discriminate against them because of it. Whether that be Nords thinking elves are physically weak, or Imperials thinking Nords are axe swinging barbarians, or Altmer thinking men as a whole are less intellegent. Only thing is, in Tamriel, some of these things are based from truth! But lets assume it is not, and look at the claims of racism to the Stormcloaks.


1. The Stormcloaks don't allow Khajiit in the city.

First of all, the Nords as a whole don't let the caravans in cities because they have a reputation of selling skooma, moonsugar, and thieving. I can't prove that they steal, but anyone can go up to them and see that they sell skooma and moonsugar, and if you listen, they can be heard among themselves complaining about "shakes" from not having any moonsugar. So on top of dealing, they also are users.

2. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"

All Nords say this battlecry. Even the Nords in the legion. It is a generic cry that can be heard from all nord npc's and should not be taken as racist. Nords as a whole are actually Nationalist and Xenophobic. Meaning they take great pride in their heretical history and background, and they are distrusting of outsiders. Not certain races, but outsiders. Even as a nord, the player can sometimes have a stormcloak in Windhelm say "You better not be an Imperial spy!" Now, some Nords are clearly racist, but this should not be generalised to all. Xenophobia and Nationalism are regulalry mistaken for racism.

3. Stormcloaks hate all elves

This is the easiest to debunk. Firstly, there is a difference between racism and prejudice. If the Stormcloaks truly hated all elves, why are there not one, not two, not three, but four Altmer npcs in the city who are not only not in the grey quarters, but are merchants? One of them says the Dunmer have themselves to blame because they are not willing to do what it takes to gain the nord's respect. Some of the Dunmer are though, as one from house Hlaalu owns a farm, and the other works on the farm and clearly dislikes the complaining his people does ans he refers to his brother saying he'd rather work than to "harp on about injustices" like his brother. Keep in mind that the Dunmer even has Nords in Windhelm working for him! Now, like I said, the Nords do have some racist people like the two in the front when you first walk into Windhelm, and the dock worker who has Argonian workers, but the Stormcloak's agenda is not a racist one, although they of course have some bad apples.

Moving on to Ulfric himself, a lot of the points previously described can be applied to his so called "racism" as well. First, Ulfric did not segregate the Dunmer, the High King during the time of the Red Mountain exploding did.

http://www.uesp.net/...ree_of_Monument

"Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

This shows that Ulfric has these elves in his city, and they don't have to pay taxes, and they are supposed to be self governed. Yet they were still allowed in the city, which Ulfric still lets them stay, and they don't have to give the Nords squat in return. The poor nords in the city aren't even given free room and board.

Edit: Some game dialogue reveals that the Dunmer possibly do actually pay taxes, so this deal may have been altered over time. I'm leaving this section in in case this is only taxes from businesses, since the Dunmer in question is a business owner. At any rate, the Dunmer were given a place to stay, and originally did not pay taxes, and originally didn't have to give the Nords anything, and they let the Grey Quarter go to crap with the oppertunity.

Here's a good argument against this that suggests the Dunmer do not in fact pay taxes.

http://forums.bethso...elm/?p=22588230


Ulfric wouldn't allow Altmer in his city when he was tortured by the Thalmor if he hated elves, and he wouldn't allow Dark Elves to work in the market or own farmland if he was racist or prejudiced either. Now, one good point some people have brought up is his segregation of Argonians out of the city. The definition of racism is in fact discrimination of a race, but he is segregating them because of their people's history with the Dark elves, not because of some prejudice against them or a belief about their race. The Argonians are known for being suddenly overtaken by the hist. This is what happened when the Argonians attacked Morowind, presumably out of revenge for their slavery in Morrowind. Ulfric is in the middle of a civil war, and would be a fool to take chances of increasing civil unrest, especially if it could get violent. The Empire could easily take advantage of that with riots in the streets if this were to actually happen.

This shows that whether or not the hist example is actually true, the argonians are said to not get along with the Dunmer.

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00094186

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00047ca7

^'Tear each other apart' being a clear sign they don't like each other.

Also keep in mind that Ulfric says nothing racist or prejudiced, and there's no actual evidence of his racism or prejudice anywhere.

Ulfric is a Power-Hungry Barbarian, The “Ulfric murdered the High King”-argument, and The issue of Ulfric killing Torygg instead of talking to him.​

An argument that is commonly defended is that Ulfric is power hungry and a savage. To those who say he's power hungry, you're right. Congradulations. But is that a bad thing? I assume when people say this, they mean that he is power hungry for the sake of power alone. That is false. He wants power so that he can do what his supporters want him to, which is to save Skyrim from the Empire's influence and restore Talos worship. Don't believe me? Does this sound like the words of one who fights for the sake of having power alone?

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2A_5kBJduIg

For those of you who say he's just acting...come on, really? In his palace with the grand total of one stranger? No.

People also say him killing Torygg is proof of his hunger for power, because his court mage says he was a fan of him, and he agreed with what Ulfric was saying, and Ulfric should have talked to him first. Do you see the contradiction? Torygg's court wizard says Torygg knew of his agenda, and Ulfric stated them at the last moot to the point to where he spoke just shy of treason. Torygg, the High King of Skyrim should have said something then if he agreed. And they say he should have asked Torygg one last time before he issued his challenge, but from Ulfric's perspective this would have been stupid. He's in the middle of the Imperial seat of power in Skyrim at the mercy of the Emperor's greatest Skyrim supporter who swore an oath to him, and showed no evidence of agreeing with Ulfric at the moot, and Ulfric is supposed to risk being arrested for treason in the belly of the beast?

A counter argument to this is he just killed the High King, so obviously he didn't care about that to begin with. This is wrong, because Ulfric challenged him to a legal duel according to Skyrim's laws and would not have been arrested. A duel is a part of Nord politics, and after a duel is won, if the High King is dead, they have another moot, and pick a new High King. People say it is an outdated law, but Torygg agreed to the duel, so clearly the law is still in place. It was only an issue after the Empire came in and said it was illegal acording to Imperial law. So Ulfric went in knowing that he wouldn't be arrested for challenging the King to a duel. This is a political checkmate. Either Torygg agrees to the duel and he wins, and a moot is held, which Ulfric would have won due to being the winner, since Elisif likely would back down out of fear to him, or Torygg doesn't accept, and Ulfric has a good chance of winning due to Torygg looking weak. Either way if the Empire did not interfere, Ulfric may very well have been the new High King.

This does not sound like the workings of a savage to me. It sounds like one who knows his people's politics and knew how to play them well. People may think he's savage only because of the nature of the Nordic politics, which is outdated compared to non combat loving countries. Ulfric can't be held accountable for playing the politics. He didn't make the rules. And as said before, Ulfric did not murder the High King, he fought Torygg in a duel. Whether you think it was dishonorable or what have you is a different issue. Torygg knew that Ulfric had the Thu'um, and accepted the fight anyway. He also knew he was a seasoned warrior, and likely still would have lost the fight. To Nords, a duel to the death even with the thu'um that is revered in their culture is not dishonorable or cowardly. His use of the thu'um simply shows he was the stronger. Whether you believe that or not isn't the point. The Nords do.

Also: http://forums.bethso...-me/?p=22498185


Indeed. Which means Ulfric would have wasted his time talking further, and he made the right call.


Another piece of evidence against Ulfric is "The Bear of Markarth". http://www.uesp.net/...ear_of_Markarth

First, this book, while obvious propaganda to make Ulfric look very bad is filled with holes.

Courtesy of Tdroid:

https://docs.google....XRZWkdWbzA/edit

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00092335

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00092331

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000e1623

http://uesp.net/wiki...honar's_Journal

“Ulfric misused the Voice”​

This point is irrelevant, as the only people who follow this are the Grey Beards, and Ulfric who was training to be one was taken as a child to be one. While he does not seem to resent the Grey Beards for this, it still shows that he can't be held accountable for an oath he didn't willfully make. It is however possible that he was willing to make the oath, but he was still a child, and this was before his home was in turmoil. The Thu'um is clearly a weapon meant to be used. In the Nord pantheon, Kynareth, or Kyne to the Nords is a warrior goddess:

Jump to: navigation, search
Kyne (Kiss At The End), or Kaan in the dragon language, is the Nordic goddess of the Storm, widow of Shor, Warrior-Wife, and a favored god of warriors

Why would a warrior goddess give the Nords a power that is clearly meant as a weapon to be passive? Jurgen Windcaller only suddenly "realised this" after the Dunmer whooped him silly, then forced other Thu'umers into his way of thinking, claiming the gods punished them for their misuse of the Thu'um. This is a clear case of "Hurtfeelioma". Even with using the Thu'um, Ulfric still says he doesn't use it lightly. Ulfric did not misuse the thu'um. The Grey Beards say otherwise, but Arngeir also thinks you're wrong for using Dragonrend on Alduin to save the world.

http://forums.bethso...rds/?p=22999537




Before people start saying stuff about oathbreaking, let me remind all that Greybeards are supposed to use their voice in times of true need:

Contrary to popular misconceptions, the Greybeards are not, strictly speaking, pacifists; the Way of the Voice teaches only that violence is the least of the Voice's uses, and it should be used for that purpose only in times of "True Need".[7]

He used it originally to fight in the great war, then again to free Markarth, then the controversial one with Torygg. That to me is true need, because he used it to rally men to his cause, which in my opinion is for true need. To make Skyrim independent and free of the WGC. You can argue against it, but there's no official rule for what true need is, so its up for interpretation. More Nords would join his cause if the leader of a rebellion used the power of the heroes of old to accomplish a goal to be like the old honored Nords. There lies the true need, more men for what he considers a good cause. Arngeir obviously forgot about the true need part:

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x0003f884

Ulfric to me seems to be the one who is following the original purpose of the Greybeards. He still seems to follow it now, as he says he knows its not to be used lightly:

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bfc41
http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bfc43
http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bfc46

He may not realize it, but really, using the voice for troubles like this is what the greybeards were supposed to do.

​

The “Trade being hurt”​

Trade at first will possibly be hurt, as the court wizard of Solitude says, but it will most likely pick up again, if it even drops at all. Why?

1. The trade between the two, namely Cyrodiil and Windhelm is just too important. Both provinces will need to keep up trade, because both are dependent on resources from eachother, and both need to rebuild, especially the Empire. They can't afford to cut themselves off of Skyrim's resources.

2. The East Empire Trading Company still opperates out of Windhelm. If trade was going to be an issue, why would they still work with the rebels and trade? Either the Company despite its leaders being originally appointed by the Emperor doesn't listen to the Empire, or the Empire simply can't afford to hault trade, and neither can Skyrim.

So because of these two reasons, it seems highly unlikely that trade will cease with Skyrim. Maybe it will deteriorate temporarily, but it is doubtful. Especially when the two are in war prep for the next Great War against the Thalmor.

This dialogue suggests as much. Especially the second one:

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000665e0

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bc181

For me, the Civil War's main theme is "Honor vs Prosperity". The Empire has granted much to the subjects of the empire through wealth and a massive empire at the cost of your moral dignity and following "Imperial Decree" which is as proverbially flexible as the counts, nobles and merchants who play games at the court. If they win, then Skyrim profits at the cost of their dignity and religious freedom of ancestor hero worship. When you face Tullius at Castle Dour, he attempts to ask for a surrender and hopefully escape from Skyrim alive. The Jarls who rule are mostly profit driven, while some are good people, the more Imperial minded ones won't hesitate to use the war to fill their own coffers.

With the Stormcloaks, Honor is everything, they follow their values of honor to a fault (like House Stark in game of thrones, all about Honor before all else). A Stormcloak may be have selfish intentions and Ulfric admits he is in it to become more powerful but he does not lie to you like Tullius or Rikke who deflects their personal thoughts from you. The people of Haafingar was quick to shift their attitude of how the duel between Toryg became one where Ulfric was a murderer. Their Jarls are generally "honorable" (by honorable, it means being worthy, not ethically honorable) if stubborn and headstrong.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Jarls who rule are mostly profit driven, while some are good people, the more Imperial minded ones won't hesitate to use the war to fill their own coffers.

Except being 'Imperial minded' would mean you're diplomatic. Looking at a few Empire supporting Jarls, they're actually interested in rebuilding Skyrim, repairing their holds. Also war would drain coffers not fill them, and since Ulfric started the Civil War it doesn't exactly make sense to say Imperial minded ones won't hesitate to use war.

I'm not even sure many can even remember the last time Imperials used war to get something.

 

[Phantom]

I think it's time to vent Phantom's opinion on this.

Honestly, neither. The Civil War, makes no sense. It's obvious who the real enemies are, the Thalmor, and Tullius seems to understand that. Ulfric is my least favorite character because his little war is nothing but a petty whip 'em out and measure 'em match.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You either pick a side or you're against the Stormcloaks. That is how their ideology works.

"If he's not with us, he's against us."
"He knows that. They all know that."

 

[Baldur Red-Snow]

I'll reply to a few points. First, the Thalmor weren't around during the Imperial Simulacrum, perhaps you're mistaking the Imperial Simulacrum for the Stormcrown Interregnum? The Imperial Simulacrum occurred from 3E 389 - 3E 399. The Thalmor rose to power in Summerset in 4E 22 and the Aldmeri Dominion was reformed in 4E 29.

That's unrelated, I was just talking about Empire failings in general, showing it wasn't just recent things. I know these things.

The Empire was recovering from the Oblivion Crisis and then from the Stormcloak Interregnum meaning the Empire's influence further from Cyrodiil was little. Not to mention a floating city.

Morrowind was abandoned to rush to the protection of Cyrodiil by Ocato the acting ruler of the Empire after the assassination of Uriel VII. Cyrodiil which took the brute force of the Daedric invasion, also Cyrodiil being the only location to stop the invasion. The Dunmer of Morrowind didn't want the Empire there, they resisted the Empire for some time, they got their wish and didn't like it.

Not so, Dragonborn contradicts this and gives us another picture:
http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1464160-the-empires-relationship-with-each-province/?p=22784624

The Empire doesn't change between a new Dynasty, it is the Third Empire because the Third Empire never ended.

Hammerfell was dropped as a province because it would not follow Imperial law. All of Hammerfell was united in this belief and was released from the Empire. The Thalmor didn't need to invade Cyrodiil in a large scale, they can do what they did during the Second Era and simply raid and conduct border skirmishes for the next hundred or more years, keeping the Legions constantly being harassed while law and order in the Empire falls down around them. In Cyrodiil and High Rock law and order was hard to maintain with cities erupting into violence and the city of Wayrest being lost to pirates. For the Empire to regain strength they needed the short moment of peace.

That's debatable, but I know Empires don't switch between dynasties.

Why Hammerfell was dropped is irrelevant, but you don't just drop an entire province because of a few raids. Besides being cowardly, that strategy got rid of a large amount of support for them, a whole province of Redguard warriors who now are pissed off at the Empire.

The Thalmor aren't planning to invade Skyrim, the Stormcloaks are doomed are because of something else which I'll get to. The part about the Pale pass, that isn't factual, unless you can point to me the in-game reference? The reason Tullius isn't gaining reinforcements which, Tullius himself mentions. Is because the Emperor Titus Mede II is denying Tullius the forces he wants to crush the rebellion.

The Pale Pass appears on Nataly Dravarol's map of Skyrim, created in 4E 182, by which time it was once again in use.[6] In 4E 201, the Pale Pass was closed due to avalanches, preventing Imperial reinforcements from helping to secure Falkreath Hold under Imperial control during the Stormcloak Rebellion.[7][8]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pale_Pass

So yes, the Pale Pass is preventing Imperial reinforcements. Mede may have been sending some miniscule ones before, close to that border, but may be unable to send the manpower from the border required to clear it, or unwilling to send ships as well to transport them. They'd be guarding the sea borders as well, after all. The Thalmor aren't but there are people who think they will attack. The Stormcloaks are hardly doomed. Both options in the game would need to be viable canon wise anyway.

"If only we weren't so overstretched… Ulfric wouldn't be a problem at all… That what comes of trying to win a war with a bare handful of legions. If only the Emperor would give me the reinforcements that I've requested of him!" - Tullius

When asked why, Tullius tells you.

"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes."

Yes, this is during the civil war, where Ulfric says a lot of men and women are still undecided, not fighting. When the war is won, all of Skyrim and its future soldiers go to the one ruling. Too often people take civil war circumstances as a look at how the future will be, which is silly when both sides are undermanned, under funded and over all under supported in general.

No really.

Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."

Stormcloaks aren't planning on sitting around. Tullius says it best about Ulfric. "But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius.

You missed the point, that wasn't to be taken literal. That whole survive alone piece was to a Thalmor attack on Skyrim, in which case the Stormcloaks wouldn't have much trouble defending. Gotta read more closely

In regards to racial segregation, when someone tries to justify racial segregation as beneficial or for they're own good, for their protection and safety. You can clearly see how easily people defend immoral practices because of a charismatic leader.

This isn't other leaders, and the difference is Ulfric is in a desperate civil war. You can't compare TES events to real life ones, re read my points. The civil strife is a real thing, something the new Imperial Jarl in Windhelm recognizes. He doesn't stop the segregation even after the war.

Dunmer do pay taxes in Windhelm, that quote for the monument was Skyrim's offer to the Dunmer. "Untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor." -Skyrim's Offer of Solstheim to Morrowind, 4E 16

An offer they obviously took. There's no evidence that they pay taxes.

Windhelm isn't Solstheim, and the High King didn't segregate the Dunmer. Each Hold is largely independent and policy for within a hold comes from the Jarl, the Jarl of Eastmarch being Ulfric Stormcloak.

The deal was still the same, hence why the monument is in EastMarch. Ulfric just kept the status quo, something that again, the Imperial's Jarl does as well.

Argonians are not known for suddenly being overtaken by the hist? The hist can call Argonians from across the Empire, but that only occurred during the Oblivion Crisis to fight Dagon. There is no mention the Hist would suddenly, for no reason at all decide to use their influence to call the Argonians of Windhelm and go "Beat up the small number of Dark elves there"

Eherm, that's what they did in Morrowind. Ulfric wouldn't know that the hist gets weaker with distance, and even without that, my links show that they don't get along in the city:


This shows that whether or not the hist example is actually true, the argonians are said to not get along with the Dunmer.

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00094186

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00047ca7

^'Tear each other apart' being a clear sign they don't like each other.

Also keep in mind that Ulfric says nothing racist or prejudiced, and there's no actual evidence of his racism or prejudice anywhere.

The only race I know that gets taken over by something is the Bosmer during a wild hunt. Not to mention the issue between Argonians and Dunmer was over a hundred years ago and that Ulfric only banished the Argonians when he took the throne. So why would they suddenly have racial issues only when Ulfric took power? Why not before, why doesn't Riften follow the same example.

That's like saying that there's no racial problems with blacks and whites in one state, so why would there be in another. And we don't know when the racial tension started in windhelm between argonians and dunmer, probably from the beginning. They're likely refugees themselves from Morrowind, since they're right at its border. Where else would they all come from, and why so many on that side of Skyrim?

As for Ulfric using the Thu'um makes him stronger, I guess using firestorm in a brawl would make my character stronger. Nords value honor in battle, namely through steel.

The Bear of Markarth isn't propaganda, it is a historical text before even the Stormcloak rebellion. Simply saying it is propaganda because it doesn't make Ulfric the perfect saint is a weak argument, it started because of the authors race being Imperial. Yet the Stormcloaks deny racism, but simply dismiss books due to race.

Nords value the thu'um as non magic. To deny this is to deny Nord history and to misunderstand Nord custom. They all revere the thu'um, and Nord duels always accepted it. Otherwise, regulations against it with duels and the High King would be made. High Kings usually could thu'um in the first place, which was part of the point that Ulfric made. The bear of Markarth is propaganda, read those links again. It is undeniable proof:

First, this book, while obvious propaganda to make Ulfric look very bad is filled with holes.

Courtesy of Tdroid:

https://docs.google....XRZWkdWbzA/edit

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00092335

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00092331

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000e1623

http://uesp.net/wiki...honar's_Journal

Lore in TES comes from majority of books, unless it is contradicted by another book or something in game. So in fact the only way the Stormcloak argument of calling the Bear of Markarth propaganda would be to deny majority of TES lore.

Its contradicted by a ton. Read the links

 

[DrunkenMage]

As for Morrowind, it is mentioned in the Dragonborn dlc the Legions left Morrowind to better protect Cyrodiil during the Daedric invasion,meaning they were ordered by Ocato. Who was the ruler during the Oblivion Crisis. Your post doesn't contradict it, you just don't mention that the Legions left them during the Oblivion Crisis.

Hammerfell wasn't prosperous for the Empire during the Fourth Era, also you do drop a province if they're unwilling to follow Imperial law as a whole. All of Hammerfell wanted to keep fighting, the rest of the Empire including Skyrim didn't for many years.

I'll give you pale pass, been awhile since I played Skyrim so you got me on that one.

Stormcloaks are also being indirectedly aided by the Thalmor.

Thalmor couldn't touch Skyrim, that argument is something I agree with. Skyrim is protected by geography. But the Stormcloaks don't plan on defending which is why some say they are doomed. If they were smart they wouldn't leave Skyrim.

Free-Winter keeps them there for the time being, making mentions of slowly changing but sudden introduction could be unsafe for the Argonians. The other races seem a lot happier to see the Empire though. The only problems are coming from the Nords, the Argonians and Dunmer aren't seen being violent towards each other. Not in Windhelm and not in Riften, both cities have refugees from Morrowind.

There is mention that one of them pays taxes, which would mean that they are paying taxes if they work which many of them do, the monument being in Eastmarch doesn't mean Eastmarch is under the same laws as Solstheim. It is a monument showing what the Nords did for the Dunmer of Morrowind. The High King can't make laws for other Holds, in Nordic politics the Holds are all largely independent and each Hold is governed by a Jarl.

Rolf Stone-Fist is hardly a credible source of information, considering he walks around the Gray Quarter in the early hours of the morning yelling insults and calls the Dark elves Imperial spies. Scouts-Many-Marshes saying he wishes they all got along better can also be reinforced by Suvaris "Some of these Nords will come up with any excuse to despise us. And it isn't just the dark elves they hate -- they make a target of the Argonians as well. In fact, just about anyone who isn't a Nord is fair game for their bullying."

Riften also borders Morrowind, with the road into Morrowind being in the Rift. Refugees came from both ends.

The Thu'um is considered an ancient form of magic and a High King hasn't had the Thu'um since the First Era, not since the Greybeards were formed. Ulfric's use of the thu'um causes half of Skyrim to call it murder, hence it is a Civil War. Ulfric fled Solitude after he killed the High King because he knew what would happen, he wasn't fleeing from the Imperial Legion they hadn't got involved yet. Ulfric cares for songs and personal glory, his use of the thu'um spread his legend all across Skyrim, with everyone talking about it.

If the Bear of Markarth is propaganda then the author's second book must be Stormcloak propaganda because it doesn't make the Empire look perfect. The Bear of Markarth isn't propaganda, what Ulfric did isn't contradicted by what you have shown it just shows that Igmund was involved also.

Though this is a good bit. The Nords didn't care who was and who wasn't involved in the Forsworn Uprising. 'The Nords' being Ulfric's militia. Also if the Bear of Markarth is simply propaganda then perhaps you can explain how this is in there, with the book being printed before you ever met Ulfric in the Palace of the Kings.

"You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips

Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."

For mere propaganda, how come there is a striking similarity there. If you want Imperial propaganda the book is called 'The Talos Mistake'. To say this book isn't correct because it doesn't support the Stormcloaks would mean there is no lore in TES. Not all books support all sides, not all books are propaganda. By the same reasoning, several books that discredit the Empire could be called propaganda and then we enter a cycle that discredits all lore. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks provide no contradiction to what happened in Markarth, if it was propaganda and false then there would be two sides of the coin. That is how lore works in TES, you need two contradictions for something to be false. What you have shown is that it wasn't just Ulfric, but you haven't removed Ulfric's involvement.