Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mr.Self Destruct]

*face palms* i'm NOT insulting you m8! if anything i'm merely attempting to get you to listen to yourself so that maybe you'll see that you're not as "RIGHT" about this story as you think you are..
let me give you an example so perhaps you'll understand why this is so insulting to some, and this is the last post i'm making on the topic tonight cause this is getting ridicules.. i am a christian, a follower of Christ, have been since i was a kid, i'm not perfect by any means but i try my best to serve our heavenly Father to the absolute best of my abilities.. now imagine if our nation was invaded one day, the US army defeated, and these guys told us that any worshipping of our Lord was now punishable by death, would you side with them? the story of this game is basically that in a nut shell, just in a fantasy world.. and THAT is why you sound so cruel by having this hardcore respect for a legion that according to the story wishes to make illegal the common religious practices.
understand?

Except your analogy is completely backwards and lacking several key factors present throughout the Great War/Civil War conflict.

Furthermore Mage only ever brought to you written facts, he doesn't think he's right, because he is right. He's been 100% correct about anything he's said having to do with Whiterun and the city's connection with the Civil War. You responded to this by lowering yourself to blatantly insulting him.

And yes you have been insulting him whether you think you have or not.

 

[Epic Keith]

you're right, i suppose it is pointless to list facts considering he will just continue to make stuff up to falsely back up his claim.. it just drives me nuts how you imperial guys try to make out how the stormcloaks are such horrible guys just cause they don't appreciate being slaves to another race, stevie wonder could see the stormcloaks are the "good guys" in this story, yall make no freakin sense! i could say more but i won't..

I can feel Talos' holy facepalm.....


Your side has a very large reputation of forging false TES lore. So please...
And please tell me who are being the slavers?

If Stormcloaks want to tear up my Talos' Empire and go and charge into battle like the stupid leader they have that would order them to and end up dying and being remembered in songs, then count me out. I'm not going to be a part of the annihilation of my race.
I can feel Talos' holy facepalm

 

[Epic Keith]

like i said, you just favor the imperials for some odd reason and have managed to start a fanclub of them by posting false info about the stormcloaks and NEVER posting how the few falts they do have, the imperials have ten fold.
you claim the stromcloaks have this unbridled hatred for elves, yet their stronghold is full of them and even my character IS one "a wood elf" and is a full fledged stormcloak.. FAIL.
you claim Ulfric is a thalmor puppet, Ulfric despises the thalmor cause they tortured him nearly to death.. AND the imperials follow the thalmor NOT the stormcloaks, who are the real thalmor puppets? FAIL.
i'm also guessing you don't believe in freedom of religion, since you favor the legion on this game so hardcore, speaks of your person but i won't even go there... FAIL.
you're hopeless, this conversation is over.

What false info? Every sentence he wrote in this thread was backed up by lore and TES facts.
This is a debate in which we are trying to prove the opposing side wrong, why would we start on our own faults? It would be digging our own grave. Any good debater knows that.
Yet the elves are oppressed and living in poor conditions and the lovely unracist Jarl does nothing about it. Before Ulfric came it was the glorious Snow Quarter. But now it is called the Grey Quarter as an insult to the 'grey-skin' elves. Were you so arrogant you refused to enter the Grey quarter because it would be bad for your skin? All the dark elves in Windhelm hate the Jarl and the city.
And you know what? I became a Khajit assassin who killed the Emperor and joined the Legion....
When you talk to Galmar as a beast or elf he says, "Why would an elf want to join us?" and if you are a man he just welcomes you with open arms.
Yet you don't understand that every Nord was already worshiping Talos despite the WG Concordat

To be honest I think this is very rude..
The only thing I find 'hopeless' is attacking people personal because they don't agree with you.

..Just my 2 cents..

QUICKLY!! SPAM HIM WITH BAD MANNERS TAGS!

 

[Jackanapes]

Well you yourself can't prove your innocence, you have no means of documentation or anything on your person that may indicate your innocence, or what you were doing with the Stormcloaks. We do know you were captured in the same ambush as the Stormcloaks, you were with them at the time of capture near Dark water crossing. You have also provided a very good point, you yourself remain silent and don't attempt to defend yourself. So this also puts a point in the Legion, you made no attempt to declare innocence, remaining silent does nothing to help you as the player.

This would mean it is hardly the Legions fault for placing you for execution when you make no case for yourself. Would be the same in any court of law or Military trial. Silence can be considered a form of guilt when given charges or a sentence. You gave them your name, nothing else. Something that a soldier would do on either side; name, rank etc.

Imperials can hardly be blamed for your execution when no attempt to declare innocence is given, you do not denounce your involvement with Ulfric Stormcloak and the Stormcloaks do not denounce you as one of them.

Is our own silence a form of guilt, or shock, we do not know.

I know that if I was in the Legion's shoes and a prisoner who was captured with the most wanted man in Skyrim, isn't talking or saying anything. I would have to make judgement then and there, same as the Captain did.

You know what? Fair enough.

I can appreciate what you're saying. I'll be honest, I didn't know what the hell was going on when I first started the game. I wound up following Hadvar and ended up joining the Legion. In Helgen, we're shown a sympathetic Hadvar who appears in direct contrast to the captain. It's easier to hate the Stormie leadership, even without a chopping block.

Just throwing this question out there... is it possible to RP as anything other than a guilty party at the start then?

This is still a HUGE problem for so many people. At the end of the day, there are just many unanswered questions.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You know what? Fair enough.

I can appreciate what you're saying. I'll be honest, I didn't know what the hell was going on when I first started the game. I wound up following Hadvar and ended up joining the Legion. In Helgen, we're shown a sympathetic Hadvar who appears in direct contrast to the captain. It's easier to hate the Stormie leadership, even without a chopping block.

Just throwing this question out there... is it possible to RP as anything other than a guilty party at the start then?

This is still a HUGE problem for so many people. At the end of the day, there are just many unanswered questions.

You can RP as anything that makes sense to you I would say, being in jail is a common thing in TES games. Though the Legion does admit their mistake when you join them, saying it was all just a misunderstanding. Wrong place, wrong time type of thing. Ulfric calls you a criminal and pretends he doesn't know you after sharing a cart ride with each other.

There are many unanswered questions, Skyrim appears to have some time problems on certain events. How long the Civil war has been going on for, the execution in Solitude, when High King Torygg died. Could indicate another warp in the west type thing, since the game has many major choices that would affect future events; Kill the Emperor Titus Mede II, destroy the Dark Brotherhood, retake Skyrim in the name of the Empire, separate Skyrim from the Empire.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Interesting points, I'll just question a few of them.

2. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"

All Nords say this battlecry. Even the Nords in the legion. It is a generic cry that can be heard from all nord npc's and should not be taken as racist. Nords as a whole are actually Nationalist and Xenophobic. Meaning they take great pride in their heretical history and background, and they are distrusting of outsiders. Not certain races, but outsiders. Even as a nord, the player can sometimes have a stormcloak in Windhelm say "You better not be an Imperial spy!" Now, some Nords are clearly racist, but this should not be generalised to all. Xenophobia and Nationalism are regulalry mistaken for racism.

3. Stormcloaks hate all elves

This is the easiest to debunk. Firstly, there is a difference between racism and prejudice. If the Stormcloaks truly hated all elves, why are there not one, not two, not three, but four Altmer npcs in the city who are not only not in the grey quarters, but are merchants? One of them says the Dunmer have themselves to blame because they are not willing to do what it takes to gain the nord's respect. Some of the Dunmer are though, as one from house Hlaalu owns a farm, and the other works on the farm and clearly dislikes the complaining his people does ans he refers to his brother saying he'd rather work than to "harp on about injustices" like his brother. Keep in mind that the Dunmer even has Nords in Windhelm working for him! Now, like I said, the Nords do have some racist people like the two in the front when you first walk into Windhelm, and the dock worker who has Argonian workers, but the Stormcloak's agenda is not a racist one, although they of course have some bad apples.

There is also the issue of Stormcloaks unwilling to buy and or trade with many shop owners due to their race, because they're not Nords they do not buy from them. Saying the Imperial alchemist in Whiterun will poison them etc.

Moving on to Ulfric himself, a lot of the points previously described can be applied to his so called "racism" as well. First, Ulfric did not segregate the Dunmer, the High King during the time of the Red Mountain exploding did.

http://www.uesp.net/...ree_of_Monument

"Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

This shows that Ulfric has these elves in his city, and they don't have to pay taxes, and they are supposed to be self governed. Yet they were still allowed in the city, which Ulfric still lets them stay, and they don't have to give the Nords squat in return. The poor nords in the city aren't even given free room and board.

Edit: Some game dialogue reveals that the Dunmer possibly do actually pay taxes, so this deal may have been altered over time. I'm leaving this section in in case this is only taxes from businesses, since the Dunmer in question is a business owner. At any rate, the Dunmer were given a place to stay, and originally did not pay taxes, and originally didn't have to give the Nords anything, and they let the Grey Quarter go to crap with the oppertunity.

The Monument is about the offer they made four years prior. "Untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor." -Skyrim's Offer of Solstheim to Morrowind, 4E 16

Those living within Skyrim's borders are subject to all laws, taxes and customs of the respective hold they are in.

A counter argument to this is he just killed the High King, so obviously he didn't care about that to begin with. This is wrong, because Ulfric challenged him to a legal duel according to Skyrim's laws and would not have been arrested. A duel is a part of Nord politics, and after a duel is won, if the High King is dead, they have another moot, and pick a new High King. People say it is an outdated law, but Torygg agreed to the duel, so clearly the law is still in place. It was only an issue after the Empire came in and said it was illegal acording to Imperial law. So Ulfric went in knowing that he wouldn't be arrested for challenging the King to a duel. This is a political checkmate. Either Torygg agrees to the duel and he wins, and a moot is held, which Ulfric would have won due to being the winner, since Elisif likely would back down out of fear to him, or Torygg doesn't accept, and Ulfric has a good chance of winning due to Torygg looking weak. Either way if the Empire did not interfere, Ulfric may very well have been the new High King.

If Ulfric went into the duel knowing he wouldn't be arrested, why did he flee? The Legion garrison wasn't involved in the war until Ulfric killed the High King and rallied the eastern holds against the western holds, starting a Nordic Civil War. If one goes into something knowing they wouldn't be arrested, why would they run like a bat out of hell afterwards.

Another piece of evidence against Ulfric is "The Bear of Markarth". http://www.uesp.net/...ear_of_Markarth

First, this book, while obvious propaganda to make Ulfric look very bad is filled with holes.

The prisoners don't even say Ulfric's name in Markarth, and as Tdroid said, the Jarl contradicts this book and even says he's the one who caused all this.


http://forums.bethso...no3/?p=22397367


And speaking of Markarth, for people saying Ulfric started the whole Talos ban enforcement because of the Markarth incident, you're wrong. Talk to the Jarl. He admits he came to Ulfric and asked for his assistance, and he offered HIM Talos worship, not the other way around. And when the Thalmor found out, Ulfric was left holding the bag.

While the book is full of holes, it isn't considered as propaganda in lore. The book also contains one very important piece of information, something that is generally overlooked and people refuse to even acknowledge it because it puts Ulfric in bad light.

"You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.

Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."

I have always been curious as to how something that many Stormcloaks will call simply Propaganda, written with no mention of Civil War, but because the authors race is Imperial, that's what started the entire propaganda thing. That author has written two books and doesn't seem to put the Empire in perfect light in his second book. While he does feel sorry for the Reachmen who have been oppressed by the Nords for a very long time, the Nords did forbid them from worshiping their gods and put chains on them basically.

 

[Jackanapes]

You can RP as anything that makes sense to you I would say, being in jail is a common thing in TES games. Though the Legion does admit their mistake when you join them, saying it was all just a misunderstanding. Wrong place, wrong time type of thing. Ulfric calls you a criminal and pretends he doesn't know you after sharing a cart ride with each other.

There are many unanswered questions, Skyrim appears to have some time problems on certain events. How long the Civil war has been going on for, the execution in Solitude, when High King Torygg died. Could indicate another warp in the west type thing, since the game has many major choices that would affect future events; Kill the Emperor Titus Mede II, destroy the Dark Brotherhood, retake Skyrim in the name of the Empire, separate Skyrim from the Empire.

Yeah, I've played Oblivion and Morrowind so I know how those stories begin. And I don't care for Ulfric and his xenophobic nationalism. I'll give you that. But I must agree with those who say they're troubled by the opening sequences because, let's face it, innocent people will be affronted simply when they're wrongly accused, especially when their intentions are actually good. And even when their head isn't on the block.

I would simply argue that holding up the Stormies as the major bad guys doesn't magically make up for the Empire's mistake. No matter how bad Ulfric is, the Legion still screwed up (which granted, Tullius admits). And it's illustrative of at least some of the bones people have to pick with the Legion and their methods and arguably also their motives. So yeah, while I do have reservations and enjoy scrutinizing some of the more apparent paradoxes present in the game, I understand what you're saying. I do.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Yeah, I've played Oblivion and Morrowind so I know how those stories begin. And I don't care for Ulfric and his xenophobic nationalism. I'll give you that. But I must agree with those who say they're troubled by the opening sequences because, let's face it, innocent people will be affronted simply when they're wrongly accused, especially when their intentions are actually good. And even when their head isn't on the block.

I would simply argue that holding up the Stormies as the major bad guys doesn't magically make up for the Empire's mistake. No matter how bad Ulfric is, the Legion still screwed up (which granted, Tullius admits). And it's illustrative of at least some of the bones people have to pick with the Legion and their methods and arguably also their motives. So yeah, while I do have reservations and enjoy scrutinizing some of the more apparent paradoxes present in the game, I understand what you're saying. I do.

Stormcloaks are just fighting for what they believe in, same as the Legion. Many Legionnaires in Skyrim aren't proper Legionnaires, they're Auxiliaries who were locally recruited. Many of the Imperials and Nords in the ranks speak of joining the Legion recently and that it has caused family problems. It's easy to overlook that both sides know each other, they grew up together. One of the things I disliked about the whole "Death to the invaders" many people try to use in the thread. Hardly invaders when they have lived there all their lives.

 

[Anouck]

QUICKLY!! SPAM HIM WITH BAD MANNERS TAGS!

 

[Ozan]

Though the Legion does admit their mistake when you join them, saying it was all just a misunderstanding.

((Most half-assed apology from Tullius ever, if you ask me. OOC, of course.))

 

[ShangTsung]

Except your analogy is completely backwards and lacking several key factors present throughout the Great War/Civil War conflict.

Furthermore Mage only ever brought to you written facts, he doesn't think he's right, because he is right. He's been 100% correct about anything he's said having to do with Whiterun and the city's connection with the Civil War. You responded to this by lowering yourself to blatantly insulting him.

And yes you have been insulting him whether you think you have or not.

1. you're going to take the side of the masses regardless of how many facts i list because people like you are too afraid to speak your own mind, i refer to yall as "herd followers" i meet you guys on the internet everyday and have learned its pointless to argue with yall.
2. we both know i am in no way wrong with my analogy as it comes strait from the game itself but again its pointless to argue with people like you as you're only posting this nonsense to me cause the masses are doing so, if the numbers were on my side you'd be posting the same bs to them instead..
3. where are these awful insults i supposedly posted to him? i'm curious to see if you can list one.. lol
4. i hate to call you out like this, i know its embarrassing.. but making stuff up just so you can say "look at me i'm coolz!" doesn't make you look smart regardless of how many trolls you may impress by joining their fanclub, i used to be just like you, no joke i'm not kidding! what i eventually learned was that at the end of the day it feels much better to be honest, even though it may hurt some feelings and i may be on the recieving end of a few insults at least i know that i am right and they are wrong, and that feels much better than being part of any online troll group.

 

[Epic Keith]

1. you're going to take the side of the masses regardless of how many facts i list because people like you are too afraid to speak your own mind, i refer to yall as "herd followers" i meet you guys on the internet everyday and have learned its pointless to argue with yall.
2. we both know i am in no way wrong with my analogy as it comes strait from the game itself but again its pointless to argue with people like you as you're only posting this nonsense to me cause the masses are doing so, if the numbers were on my side you'd be posting the same bs to them instead..
3. where are these awful insults i supposedly posted to him? i'm curious to see if you can list one.. lol
4. i hate to call you out like this, i know its embarrassing.. but making stuff up just so you can say "look at me i'm coolz!" doesn't make you look smart regardless of how many trolls you may impress by joining their fanclub, i used to be just like you, no joke i'm not kidding! what i eventually learned was that at the end of the day it feels much better to be honest, even though it may hurt some feelings and i may be on the recieving end of a few insults at least i know that i am right and they are wrong, and that feels much better than being part of any online troll group.

Do you know what is more stronger than the game itself? The lore. Mage bases all his arguments on lore so his arguments are superior compared to your. In the game different people say different things, it is not very reliable. You claim that Mage is forging lore? Yet tell me what has he forged and I will give you links that support his claims. You said his argument was 'hopeless' which a number of us found was rude.

 

[ShangTsung]

Do you know what is more stronger than the game itself? The lore. Mage bases all his arguments on lore so his arguments are superior compared to your. In the game different people say different things, it is not very reliable. You claim that Mage is forging lore? Yet tell me what has he forged and I will give you links that support his claims. You said his argument was 'hopeless' which a number of us found was rude.

so you're saying that you shouldn't go by the game itself, cause the story bethesda gave for the game is false, right? i'm not even gonna touch that one, it speaks for itself.. even my girl is in tears laughing after reading that and it isn't easy making her smile this early in the morning so thanks for that.
when i posted he was hopeless it wasn't meant as a direct insult to him in any way, shape, or form.. me and drunkenmage are actually friends and have conversations in the shout box on here quite often, i was simply done arguing with him and implying that continuing to do so was in fact "hopeless" plus it was 12am and i was exhausted.

 

[Epic Keith]

so you're saying that you shouldn't go by the game itself, cause the story bethesda gave for the game is false, right? i'm not even gonna touch that one, it speaks for itself.. even my girl is in tears laughing after reading that and it isn't easy making her smile this early in the morning so thanks for that.
when i posted he was hopeless it wasn't meant as a direct insult to him in any way, shape, or form.. me and drunkenmage are actually friends and have conversations in the shout box on here quite often, i was simply done arguing with him and implying that continuing to do so was in fact "hopeless" plus it was 12am and i was exhausted.

I didn't say that and obviously you didn't get what I was saying. Read my post 10 more time or until you understand what is written there. Sometimes I don't get how you people twist words up

 

[Epic Keith]

Some people don't know the proper usage of the ranter pin....-_-

 

[ShangTsung]

I didn't say that and obviously you didn't get what I was saying. Read my post 10 more time or until you understand what is written there. Sometimes I don't get how you people twist words up

whaa... you posted it m8, don't get pissed at me for simply reading it.
i'm done here, believe what you want, this conversation is over.. lighten up ffs.

 

[Epic Keith]

What I wrote

Do you know what is more stronger than the game itself? The lore. Mage bases all his arguments on lore so his arguments are superior compared to your. In the game different people say different things, it is not very reliable. You claim that Mage is forging lore? Yet tell me what has he forged and I will give you links that support his claims. You said his argument was 'hopeless' which a number of us found was rude.

What you read

Herp derp the whole game is wrong and bethesda just wrote the thingy for the lulz!

It's all very simple.

Roggvir says Ulfric challenged the High King to a fair fight

The rest of Solitude says it is murder.

If that doesn't clear things up then I don't know what will

 

[Anouck]

3. where are these awful insults i supposedly posted to him? i'm curious to see if you can list one.. lol

List one? I did that before, but you ignored me..
Let me see if I can find it again... Ah there it is..

i'm also guessing you don't believe in freedom of religion, since you favor the legion on this game so hardcore, speaks of your person but i won't even go there... FAIL.
you're hopeless, this conversation is over.

but making stuff up just so you can say "look at me i'm coolz!" doesn't make you look smart regardless of how many trolls you may impress by joining their fanclub

You don't find this insulting? Attacking people because they don't agree with you?.. I don't even know what to say to that...

..And I also don't understand why you keep saying that he makes stuff up.. Especially because several people here posted links and information that back up his arguments. But yeah, you just ignore those people and keep using that same argument again.. Everything he said so far was true and based on facts..

 

[DrunkenMage]

((Most half-assed apology from Tullius ever, if you ask me. OOC, of course.))

Crappy apology from Tullius or an insult from Ulfric calling me a criminal. I rather take the plopsty apology. Never easy to admit to a mistake like that, least Tullius was man enough to admit to it.

 

[Epic Keith]

List one? I did that before, but you ignored me..
Let me see if I can find it again... Ah there it is..


You don't find this insulting? Attacking people because they don't agree with you?.. I don't even know what to say to that...

..And I also don't understand why you keep saying that he makes stuff up.. Especially because several people here posted links and information that back up his arguments. But yeah, you just ignore those people and keep using that same argument again.. Everything he said so far was true and based on facts..

He ignored a bunch of stuff I posted too. They never reply to posts that they can't make points obviously.