Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mookie]

3 different Empires, the 3rd the one you're referring to, the Septim Empire started in Skyrim therefore the Empire has always been in Skyrim because the Empire is Skyrim!

The British empire was always in Scotland, Ireland too. Sooooo they cant be independent nor do they have a right to be?

 

[Gearuvagen]

Did the British Empire originate in Scotland or Ireland? Nope. It would be like saying London has no part in the British empire.
Plus the real world is not Tamriel.

 

[Mookie]

Did the British Empire originate in Scotland or Ireland? Nope. It would be like saying London has no part in the British empire.
Plus the real world is not Tamriel.

England controled that area when it founded the empire
And even if it did, it gives them even more right to say, its over we are out.
Tamriel has very few examples of anything to prevent similar situations.

 

[Gearuvagen]

Ulfric didn't say we're out though, he killed the High King and started a Rebellion. There was already talk of succession and Torygg would have strongly considered it, but then Ulfric wouldn't have been High King and that's pretty much the only thing he wanted. The Empire only became militant because of Ulfric and his so-called "Stormcloak Rebellion".

 

[Mookie]

Ulfric didn't say we're out though, he killed the High King and started a Rebellion. There was already talk of succession and Torygg would have strongly considered it, but then Ulfric wouldn't have been High King and that's pretty much the only thing he wanted. The Empire only became militant because of Ulfric and his so-called "Stormcloak Rebellion".

He did something that was legal. No one tried to stop him until empire steped in and said "damn your customs we are determining who is the high king"
Ulfric killed HK just to prove that and to prove their wretched condition.
He wouldnt consider it, chests of gold are too atractive.
And it was the empire which gave stormcloaks their name. The original name was "the sons of Skyrim"

 

[Gearuvagen]

I believe this argument has already been made in another thread . I find no need to simply regurgitate the answers given to you by DrunkenMage or the various other sensible people who tried to convince you of Ulfric's. Trickery, Cowardice and Unhonorable fighting tactics.

 

[Mookie]

I believe this argument has already been made in another thread . I find no need to simply regurgitate the answers given to you by DrunkenMage or the various other sensible people who tried to convince you of Ulfric's. Trickery, Cowardice and Unhonorable fighting tactics.

The same people who use their superior knowledge of lore to hide all the terrible things related to empire and make them into little saints. It is a game after all, yeah. But you people monopolise on Drunken mage, who has knowledge but doesnt share it.
Not knowing about crimes or bad things doesnt make them go away.

 

[Dagmar]

1. Policies of Windhelm is by Ulfric's hand, being he is the Jarl and also the Leader of the Stormcloaks his policies are that of his army, not necessarily the policies of other Jarls, but the Stormcloak Army answers to Ulfric, they swear an oath to Ulfric not Skyrim and the other Jarls. Windhelm also becomes the capital of Skyrim once more if Ulfric becomes High King, which means it's policies will be what Skyrim is seen as by other Provinces.

The policies of Windhelm are those of Ulfric as Jarl of Eastmarch. That does not automatically make them the policies of the Stormcloaks which are a military force not a political one, and have no official affiliation with Eastmarch. Their allegiance to Ulfric is a personal one which has nothing to do with his position as Jarl and everything to do with his position as leader of the Nord militia that would eventually become the Stormcloaks. The policies of Windhelm are no more likely to become the policies of Skyrim than the the policies of Solitude were the policies of Skyrim. Remember, the Jarls are fairly autonomous in how they run their Holds and there's nothing to suggest that Uflric really cares about what happens outside his backyard in terms of racial integration.

 

[Gearuvagen]

The same people who use their superior knowledge of lore to hide all the terrible things related to empire and make them into little saints. It is a game after all, yeah. But you people monopolise on Drunken mage, who has knowledge but doesnt share it.
Not knowing about crimes or bad things doesnt make them go away.

Doesn't share it?!? I've seen him on Numerous occasion trying teach you Empire lore, your thick skull has just proven resistant to his hammer of knowledge.
and they're nothing stopping you from paying attention reading books and talking to people in the games. It's not like Bethesda has a direct line to Dagmar and DrunkenMage, they weren't born with superior lore knowledge either....I think.

 

[Mookie]

Doesn't share it?!? I've seen him on Numerous occasion trying teach you Empire lore, your thick skull has just proven resistant to his hammer of knowledge.
and they're nothing stopping you from paying attention reading books and talking to people in the games. It's not like Bethesda has a direct line to Dagmar and DrunkenMage, they weren't born with superior lore knowledge either....I think.

He points out a few things, but really dirty ones are kept deep inside

 

[Ivory]

He points out a few things, but really dirty ones are kept deep inside

As far as I'm concerned, he's always provided sources to most of the things he's mentioned or brought up. Anything he doesn't is clearly a personal or slightly misinformed area that gets covered rather quickly. He's done nothing to hide anything nor would he have a reason to hide something with this is all public lore on a story. Pray tel, what are these secret things he is hiding? I see no sources of your own that Mage has yet to bring into account. I'm beginning to think you're over paranoid my friend.

 

[Dagmar]

Skyrim is home to the Nords, you cant blame them for that, that has nothing to do with stormcloaks. Americans are priviledged in US above non-americans (non-citizens)
While legal aliens are priviledged over illegal aliens.
Yet no one calls them racist or anything. Its their homeland.

What are you even trying to say with this response? U.S. Citizens are multiracial and race isn't a criterion for U. S. citizenship which is why no intelligent person would argue that preferential treatment of its citizens by its government is racist. No one is blaming anyone for the fact that post-Atmoran Nords largely reside and originate from Skyrim. That's completely non-responsive to the fact that the Stormcloaks are not the spokespeople for the Nords of Skyrim. They're just one Nord faction pitted against another Nord faction which is just as popular as they are, which is why any claim that they have some favorable moral high ground based on popular support from Nords in Skyrim is misinformed and ignorant.

 

[Dagmar]

He points out a few things, but really dirty ones are kept deep inside

Ah yes, he must be hiding knowledge since what he points out refutes things you just make up or base on distortions and misrepresentations about the lore of the game, much like real scientists must be hiding dirty secrets that would disprove Evolution and establish Creationism as a legitimate science.

Here's a newsflash for you, there's no "secret lore" out there being hidden from you by the Imperial Legion Illuminati. Claiming that someone is "hiding" lore is infantile. The lore is an open source available to anyone who is willing to commit time and attention to observing it and learning it. If anyone is too intellectually lazy to do so and instead decides to take incredulous positions by ignoring or distorting lore or by fabricating false lore and gets called out on it and schooled that's no one's fault but their own.

 

[Gearuvagen]

They figured it out, no use hiding the "Secret Lore" now.
The Imperial Legion:
Traveled back in time using the elderscrolls and got rid of the Dwemer.
Convinced the Sload to release the thrassian plague.
Sunk the Isle of Artaeum.
Made Falinesti stop moving.
Made the moons disappear then reappear. (Just to piss off the Cats)
and let's not forget we have Numidium disguised as a tree in the Imperial City.

However if you want to get more familiar with the Real Lore. you can try:
The Imperial Library, Don't let the name dissuade you.
http://www.imperial-library.info/
They have (nearly) all the ES books on there as well as some other nifty things.

 

[DrunkenMage]

So.... letm e get this straight. Before Ulfric gray quarter didnt exist, nor was it a slum. But the day he arrived it just dilapidated and became slum?
Come on.

He thinks logicaly, quite logicaly because first:
He doesnt attack while wedding is going on
And second, he doesnt wait for a war to start a rebelion, even though a rebelion started during the empires inovlement in war would be 100X more succesfull.


Skyrim is home to the Nords, you cant blame them for that, that has nothing to do with stormcloaks. Americans are priviledged in US above non-americans (non-citizens)
While legal aliens are priviledged over illegal aliens.
Yet no one calls them racist or anything. Its their homeland.

Logical thinking or not, they seem competent to win, are protected by geography and have a charismatic ruler.
Also, which isnt covered but I think is more realistic, they might get Dovakhin on the Throne. Ulfric isnt forever, he participated in great war, which was 30 years ago, which means he is in his 50's at least.
Even if Dovakhin doesnt rule Skyrim, Ulfric will be there for 20 more years and someone new will step in. Someone different.


Most of your oposition is based around Ulfric.

Before Ulfric it was the Snow Quarter, Ulfric has been on the throne for couple of years. A place can turn quickly into a plops hole when left for a couple of years, Windhelm is a very old city that would need constant maintenance. So yes when he arrived on the throne of Eastmarch it can turn into a slum by ignoring it.

If he attacked during the Wedding and one of the royal family was killed, it would no longer be a Civil war but would force the Empire to take a more active involvement and all of Cyrodiil will cry for war. The Civil war in Skyrim doesn't have that much attention outside the provinces, this is noted when you ask about the Civil war and Hadvar mentions it must not be well known in Cyrodiil. Killing a member of royal blood, will give it headlines in Cyrodiil and a Legion would have to be sent not because of strategic interest but because of political. Skyrim wouldn't be able to get away with killing a royal family member with no consequences, otherwise the provinces would see this as a way to take advantage, and they're always trying to take advantage.

Skyrim is home to the Nords, but also home to many other races. People who were born there, have lived there all their lives. Does that make Skyrim any less of their home because they're not Nord? Stormcloaks are not what Nords represent, they only represent half of Skyrim.

The player will never become High King, because that would mean the character was male, when in fact many people's characters could be female, they could be Argonian, Khajiit, Imperial, Breton, Altmer, Orcs etc. It'll never happen they'll never refer to the Dovahkiin by race or gender in future games. So logically thinking, it isn't going to ever happen.

Most of my opposition is based around, there is a war coming and Skyrim splitting off now isn't the best thing, it is also because there could of been peaceful ways of going independent. Ulfric started this Civil war, he hit first and all of Skyrim went to war. I don't know if you believe the Stormcloaks are what Nords represent but that isn't so, considering half the Holds of Skyrim are up in arms against him.

If a man is paying someone to kill an emperor, he isnt alone in doing that. He has plans, and he is prepared. He probably has backing from some legion comanders, some politicians as well. Not to mention that some other comanders will also use the oportunity to try to advance and even proclaim themselves the emperor.
You are quite the optimist if you believe that it is only Amaund alone who wants emperor dead and is ready for that

He is a member of the Elder Council, he has considerable wealth and power within the Empire. It is hinted he is seeking to rise above his station. They are the ruling body of the Empire, so he doesn't need much backing. The Legion has never done a coup, the only time Legionnaires were plotting to kill the Emperor was in Morrowind with the Talos Cult.

The legion wouldnt be in Skyrim, just like they left skyrim to bandits and to fend for itself when cyrodil was threatened. The Skyrim founded the first empire, was part of the second one. This is just the third empire man.
They had 20 years before this in Skyrim, they could have prepared for war with thalmor, now they cant beat Stormcloaks. Or arent interested, which says something.

The Legion has been in Skyrim for a very long time. Skyrim did not found the First Empire, they founded the First Empire of the Nords, not the First Empire. They also destroyed their own Empire during the War of Succession. The Third Empire they joined willingly, Skyrim has never been conquered by the Imperials. Cyrodiil and Skyrim have generally had closer relations than other provinces. The Third Empire under the Mede dynasty was helped by Skyrim, they endorsed Titus Mede I as Emperor. Twenty years to be prepared for war with the Thalmor? Takes longer than that to repair all of the damage and get the Legions back up to full strength. The Empire doesn't do the "With us or against us" So people join willingly. It's not they aren't interested, they can't weaken the defenses along the Aldmeri Dominion where all of the Legions are. You're fighting locally recruited Auxiliary units with a few Veteran Commanders, The Empire is sending what they can which is very little due to their current situation with the stare down with the Dominion and now Ulfric starting trouble. It actually would of been over rather quickly if Alduin didn't appear, which we can probably blame Ulfric for also. He did technically complete the last part of the prophecy for Dragons to appear. 'When the Sons of Skyrim would spill their own blood.'

He did something that was legal. No one tried to stop him until empire steped in and said "damn your customs we are determining who is the high king"
Ulfric killed HK just to prove that and to prove their wretched condition.
He wouldnt consider it, chests of gold are too atractive.
And it was the empire which gave stormcloaks their name. The original name was "the sons of Skyrim"

If it was legal, why did he flee all the way back to Windhelm before the Legion stepped in? Why did he raise the Eastern Holds against the Western Holds if it was legal? Why does half of Skyrim call him murderer? Food for thought.

The policies of Windhelm are those of Ulfric as Jarl of Eastmarch. That does not automatically make them the policies of the Stormcloaks which are a military force not a political one, and have no official affiliation with Eastmarch. Their allegiance to Ulfric is a personal one which has nothing to do with his position as Jarl and everything to do with his position as leader of the Nord militia that would eventually become the Stormcloaks. The policies of Windhelm are no more likely to become the policies of Skyrim than the the policies of Solitude were the policies of Skyrim. Remember, the Jarls are fairly autonomous in how they run their Holds and there's nothing to suggest that Uflric really cares about what happens outside his backyard in terms of racial integration.

Ulfric's views are spreading to his army, the way Stormcloaks refuse to buy from Non-Nords, that racial discrimination is already spreading. The Jarls were largely independent, but now he has Galmar looking over their shoulders making sure they're following orders. Ulfric's policies are not done out of political agenda, but seems to be his personal views and many of his Commanders in his Militia. They are generally ruled by emotion, mainly hatred which would spread through the ranks.

He points out a few things, but really dirty ones are kept deep inside

I respond with what the argument is about, what the Empire did thousands of years ago aren't that relevant to the argument. This is the Third Empire, what the First Empire did or the Second Empire aren't that important, every Emperor is different and the Empire changes with each new Emperor. Just like saying the Septims were the best Emperors, they weren't. Tiber Septim had a good rule, and a few Emperors, but generally their dynasty was full of wars and even a Civil war between the Septim blood line. They had an insane Emperor who would strip during speeches, tried to hang himself at the grand ball and he would bite people.

3 different Empires, the 3rd the one you're referring to, the Septim Empire started in Skyrim therefore the Empire has always been in Skyrim because the Empire is Skyrim!

The Third Empire, like the Empire's before it started in Cyrodiil. It started with a Colovian King and his General, Talos.

 

[Ivory]

Let's not forget Potema either. Crazy woman nearly destroyed the Empire herself.

 

[Gearuvagen]

"Civil War in the Septim Bloodline" He covered it.

and have you tried to give a speech without getting naked? It's boring as hell, and no one pays attention.

 

[Ivory]

What I would love to know and research myself is who was on Skyrim first. Skyrim is the fatherland of the first humans on Tamriel, but does that mean the Dwarves and Snow Elves were there first? If I remember, as vague as it was that i heard this, that Solsthiem was the Snow Elves last home before their supposed extinction. I'm really hoping for more Lore about the Falmer and Dwemer.

 

[Gearuvagen]

as far as I know the Falmer were there long before the Nords. They were drove out/underground by Ysgramor and his 500 after "The Night of Tears"

In any case I'm pretty sure the "Beastfolk" predate both Man & Mer on Tamriel

 

[Ivory]

Made a new topic about this so we don't stray off this one