Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Flint firestorm]

balgruuf chose to support the imperials. therefore, 'betrayal' is not a valid response.

the banning of talos, a corrupt, immoral and weak empire, and the treaty is more than enough to justify withdrawal from the empire.

in fact, skyrim (nords/jarls,etc.) has the right to withdraw and demand autonomy at any time.

'detrimental to tamriel' is irrelevant. 'too vulnerable' is irrelevant. even if it was known that all the inhabitants of skyrim would be utterly destroyed by the thalmor in a war doesn't change the fact that the reasons for skyrim's decision to want autonomy are valid.

listening to ulfric's dialogues has proven to me that his actions are righteous and just.

Even if (I say if because I've never seen it said in tamrelic lore that they can) they have that right it's not what skyrim wants. The majority of the jarls want to stay with the empire.

 

[Lizzifer]

Stormcloaks, all the way. If some snobby buttholes came to Canada and tried to take it over and turn it into an anal regime, you bet your ass I'd wear helmets with goat horns on them and fight back. Skyrim belongs to the Nords!

 

[samgurl775]

Stormcloaks, all the way. If some snobby buttholes came to Canada and tried to take it over and turn it into an anal regime, you bet your ass I'd wear helmets with goat horns on them and fight back. Skyrim belongs to the Nords!

First off, Skyrim is already part of the Empire and has been for hundreds of years, the Imperials aren't invading. And second, no, Skyrim doesn't "belong to the Nords". Technically if it "belongs" to anyone it's the Altmer as they were there long before the Nords were.

 

[Lizzifer]

First off, Skyrim is already part of the Empire and has been for hundreds of years, the Imperials aren't invading. And second, no, Skyrim doesn't "belong to the Nords". Technically if it "belongs" to anyone it's the Altmer as they were there long before the Nords were.

Ok, let's run with that. As an example, are you of the mind that Scotland should have then been overrun by England and taken away from the Scots simply because they were an empire, regardless of who occupied it and essentially ran it?

 

[samgurl775]

Ok, let's run with that. As an example, are you of the mind that Scotland should have then been overrun by England and taken away from the Scots simply because they were an empire, regardless of who occupied it and essentially ran it?

Wut. You're acting like Skyrim was forced into the Empire and never wanted any part of it. Tiber Septim, the man that founded the Empire, was a Nord raised in Skyrim. The only real life comparison I can think of that's anywhere near the Stormcloak/Empire situation is the Civil War in the United States.

 

[Raijin]

First off, Skyrim is already part of the Empire and has been for hundreds of years, the Imperials aren't invading. And second, no, Skyrim doesn't "belong to the Nords". Technically if it "belongs" to anyone it's the Altmer as they were there long before the Nords were.

According to the lore

Nation: Skyrim
Native Populace: Nords
Founded: Late Merethic Era
Head-of-State: High King
Official Language: Nordic
Currency: Septim

The Altmer has their own nation and it's called Summerset Isle.

And one last thing. The nords stole the land from the snow elves aka Falmer.

 

[Flint firestorm]

The only real life comparison I can think of that's anywhere near the Stormcloak/Empire situation is the Civil War in the United States.

The best real life comparison is The Irish civil war. Country split in half. One side wants to be apart of a larger empire and one wants independance.

 

[osheao]

First off, Skyrim is already part of the Empire and has been for hundreds of years, the Imperials aren't invading. And second, no, Skyrim doesn't "belong to the Nords". Technically if it "belongs" to anyone it's the Altmer as they were there long before the Nords were.

if you'd like to back any argument that asserts that skyrim is not the land of the nords, i'll gladly put my axe to the fools that side with them.

the empire is lazy, corrupt, immoral and weak. they've overstepped their bounds. they are a disgrace. their time is up in skyrim.

@Flint- this is your buddy Tanis and it doesn't matter if the spineless and faithless jarls of my skyrim support the empire. ulfric has effectively used nord custom and history to create opposing points of view and a just cause. to say that skyrim doesn't want war is simply incorrect. ulfric does not go it alone.

 

[Lizzifer]

The best real life comparison is The Irish civil war. Country split in half. One side wants to be apart of a larger empire and one wants independance.

Yeah, that example sounds a lot more appropriate. +1

 

[samgurl775]

According to the lore

Nation: Skyrim
Native Populace: Nords
Founded: Late Merethic Era
Head-of-State: High King
Official Language: Nordic
Currency: Septim

The Altmer has their own nation and it's called Summerset Isle.

I'm not talking about current information, I'm talking about the fact that Elves were in Skyrim and ruled it before Nords ever did.

And Lizz I'd appreciate an actual response instead of just disagreeing with me.

The best real life comparison is The Irish civil war. Country split in half. One side wants to be apart of a larger empire and one wants independance.

That's a good one. Unfortunately I'm not as well versed in real life history as I am with Tamriel history lol.

 

[Lizzifer]

And Lizz I'd appreciate an actual response instead of just disagreeing with me.

I don't intend on following this in a full-scale argument when you're clearly more personally invested in a game than I am. I don't see a need for getting so defensive as if Skyrim is your homeland.

 

[samgurl775]

I don't intend on following this in a full-scale argument when you're clearly more personally invested in a game than I am. I don't see a need for getting so defensive as if Skyrim is your homeland.

...Alright then. Just be prepared to defend your opinion if you're going to post about it.

 

[Lizzifer]

...Alright then. Just be prepared to defend your opinion if you're going to post about it.

I did defend it. I don't see why I should need to get into an argument with you to defend it further.

 

[samgurl775]

I did defend it. I don't see why I should need to get into an argument with you to defend it further.

Where did you defend your original post? I'm not arguing with you, I was pointing out a fallacy in the logic of your first post. I'm also curious as to whether or not you were aware Skyrim has been part of the Empire for some 600 years now.

 

[Dagmar]

.....even if it was known that all the inhabitants of skyrim would be utterly destroyed by the thalmor in a war doesn't change the fact that the reasons for skyrim's decision to want autonomy are valid.

"Skyrim" doesn't want independence. The Stormcloaks want it, and they don't even constitute a majority of the Nords in Skyrim let alone a majority of the entire population of Skyrim.

In addition, having valid reasons for wanting independence doesn't equate to having valid reasons for murdering the High King, refusing to even entertain the mere concept of a secession through diplomacy (something Ulfric consciously makes impossible by killing the High King), and plunging the nation into a civil war resulting in the deaths of fellow Nords, kinsmen, family and loved ones.

 

[Raijin]

"Skyrim" doesn't want independence. The Stormcloaks want it, and they don't even constitute a majority of the Nords in Skyrim let alone a majority of the entire population of Skyrim.


In addition, having valid reasons for wanting independence doesn't equate to having valid reasons for murdering the High King, refusing to even entertain the mere concept of a secession through diplomacy (something Ulfric consciously makes impossible by killing the High King), and plunging the nation into a civil war resulting in the deaths of fellow Nords, kinsmen, family and loved ones.

And what brought you to say that Skyrim doesn't want independence? Everyone is picking sides. The Black briars, well Maven that is, is obviously pro Imperial and doesn't want Independence due to finance reasons while on the other hand the Silver blood family in Markarth are pro Stormcloaks, and want skyrim free from the empire. You can't sit here and tell me that the majority of the entire population of skyrim doesn't want independence because that is false.

Here we go again. Are we going to restart the debate about the accusation of Ulfric murdering the High King when in fact he accepted Ulfric's challenge to a duel? How is that constitute as murder? I think you've been spending too much time speaking with the fear mongering Elisif If you truly believe that Ulfric rebellion was in resulting in the deaths of nords, kinsmen and family. In fact that Ulfric tried his very best to prevent a take over in whiterun to spare the lives of many. When the player returned the axe to him his demeanor changed. He then agreed with Galmar, and gave the OK to take over Whiterun.

 

[osheao]

and, since, ulfric didn't murder the high king, all is well.

it was a rightful challenge, period. whether or not you feel the use of a shout was honorable is irrelevant.

the challenge was accepted. unless, specific challenge rules/customs can be brought forth, then, all arguments against the use of the shout are moot.

the use of diplomacy is never necessary when your cause is righteous. whether or not ulfric has or doesn't have a majority is irrelevant in skyrim.

 

[Balerion Blackdread]

....and it doesn't matter if the spineless and faithless jarls of my skyrim support the empire....

It doesn't matter if spineless sycophantic jarls whose heads would go halfway up Ulfirc's butt if he made a sudden stop support the Stormcloaks. See what I did there?

This kind of irrational (and inaccurate) biased characterization of the Jarls who pledge fealty to the High King and the Empire does nothing but undermine an already weak argument. For the record, none of the Jarls are faithless. They all still worship Talos. For that matter no one in Skyrim stopped worshipping Talos. Claiming otherwise is akin to saying no one smokes pot in the United States because it's illegal. One has to be blind to what's going on in the game to be that delusional.

....to say that skyrim doesn't want war is simply incorrect. ulfric does not go it alone.

No, to say that Skyrim wants war is simply incorrect. For that statement to be accurate, the entire population, or at least an overwhelming majority of the the population would have to be behind Ulfric. It's not even close. It's clear that the game developers want us to perceive that the population is split relatively even on the matter, with just as many Nords viewing Ulfric as a usurper and remaining part of the Empire as the right course of action as there are that believe that Skyrim should be independent and that Ulfric is the most qualified Jarl to be the new High King.

 

[Jeremius]

"Skyrim" doesn't want independence. The Stormcloaks want it, and they don't even constitute a majority of the Nords in Skyrim let alone a majority of the entire population of Skyrim.

In addition, having valid reasons for wanting independence doesn't equate to having valid reasons for murdering the High King, refusing to even entertain the mere concept of a secession through diplomacy (something Ulfric consciously makes impossible by killing the High King), and plunging the nation into a civil war resulting in the deaths of fellow Nords, kinsmen, family and loved ones.

Hi there Dagmar, Mind pointing out WHERE in the LORE and CANON it says that the Empire banned Dueling?
I do not think there is Lore on it, plus saying that Ulfric Murdered the high king is something a die-hard imperial would say, not someone who claims to be neutral like you.

 

[samgurl775]

For that matter no one in Skyrim stopped worshipping Talos. Claiming otherwise is akin to saying no one smokes pot in the United States because it's illegal.

Perfect analogy haha.