Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

It's not like he was backed into a corner, he was able to retook the capitol city. Who in their right mind surrenders after a victory? It all points to him simply giving up, whatever this was supposed to 'buy' the Empire time or not is also irrelevant. That's a fool's move because a) you have no idea if you are going to win the next war, and b) you grant all the wishes your enemy wanted in the first place. That's no, no and a big NO. You simply continue the fight, especially after a victory. Take Hammerfell for example, they were able to kick the Thalmor's butt. Yes, it was hard and brutal but they did it, not only that but they did it alone. Why would the whole Empire give up so suddenly if not for the Emperor losing his spine?

Winning one battle =/= winning the war.

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year.

But, the Empire should continue the war. Besides their infrastructure in ruins, Cyrodiil in flames everywhere and other provinces starting to fall apart. Skyrim lost the entire Reach during the war, how much more would they lose if the Empire demanded more blood? More soldiers, more conscripts, more supplies. Holds would be looking like they do in the Civil War, bandits raiding their farms, Jarls barely able to support the citizens they have and now they would have hundreds if not thousands of refugees escaping the violence from Hammerfell and Cyrodiil.

Okay, where does the Empire start? Do they take their weakened force to Hammerfell? Or do they attempt a suicide attack on Valenwood and Elsweyr. The Thalmor could continue for a number of years, the Empire was falling apart already. They could barely restore order after the Great War due to outbreaks of violence by criminals, major cities erupting into chaos, kingdoms in High Rock sacked and taken over by pirates.

The Redguards fought on in their homeland, devastated their province a lot and signed a treaty with the Thalmor after they achieved a stalemate. Just because the Redguards could continue in Hammerfell, doesn't mean the Empire could. The Empire took most of the beating in the war, the Redguards took two years of an invading army before they finally came together to be of any use. If the Redguards were not divided over petty issues prior to the war (like Skyrim currently is) things may have turned out very differently.

Just because they turned up late to the party going "Come on bro, lets get them" while the Empire's Military lost over half their manpower, countless losses in Hammerfell fighting alone for two years. Doesn't make the Redguards super awesome, saying "well they could do it!" Yeah, they could do it... After Cyrodiil, High Rock and Skyrim did most of the bloody work.

 

[nogz]

You are judging the situation by looking at the Empire loses only, which is half the picture, and making excuses for their surrender. That's what the Emperor did and that's why he capitulated. I remember this exact argument regarding the war before. The Empire lost a lot bro, better surrender. Because you know, the Dominion never lost a single soldier and probably spend 5 septims out of their 10 septim budget for the war. Also we are never told what goes on in their provinces, what if they have problems with pirates or / and bandits during the war on their own?

But that aside, the point is that their main forces in Cyrodiil were decimated, they weren't even able to escape the capitol city thanks to the Emperor (which again I will give him some credit for his brilliant retaking of the city, but that doesn't excuse him for caving in in a moment of victory). And given the Stormcloaks accounts of the war they (the nords) were ready to fight till the end. Skyrim would have never abandon the war effort at that time, they would have fought till the end for the Empire. The other provinces too. So, again, why would the whole Empire suddenly surrender if not for the Emperor making a really bad and poorly informed decision? Everything points to that, you can make up excuses for the Empire all you want, it doesn't really changes the reality of the situation.

Regarding the redguards, the point is that they won! Alone. Which if anything further proves my point that the Empire should have continued the fight and not surrender on the whim of the Emperor. Also they didn't sign a treaty with the Thalmor based on any Thalmor demands like the WGC. It's a treaty a lot like what the Emperor should have bargained for at the negotiation table with the Thalmor - you get out of my territory and the war is over, end of story.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Dominion's main army in Cyrodiil was destroyed, but we have no idea about the secondary army they brought into Cyrodiil. Was it destroyed or did they survive?

The Stormcloaks say they should fight, but you have to understand is that the Stormcloaks were a miniority at the time. Only a few ex-Legionaries mention continue the war, the rest of the Stormcloaks are fighting for other reasons. Ulfric was the only Jarl at High King Torygg's Moot who spoke of independence. A handful of Legionaries wanting to continue doesn't make an Empire. Look at Skyrim now, the majority of people want an end to the Civil War no matter what. They don't care who wins, what terms are made. Only that they can live their lives without worrying about the war coming closer.

Even the Stormcloaks aren't united on their views of war, Ralof mentions the Nords are tired of fighting the "Empire's wars".

It wasn't just the Emperor agreeing to the terms, only Hammerfell rejected the White-Gold Concordat. Cyrodiil agreed to peace, High Rock agreed to it and largely Skyrim (Besides the small Nordic militia under Ulfric) agreed to the terms. Had Skyrim wanted to continue to the end as you suggest, why didn't they?

Cyrodiil wasn't in any shape to continue, but nothing stopped Skyrim or High Rock following Hammerfell. Why wait twenty six years to speak about how you should still fight, a bunch of old men thumping their chests and saying "Empire shamed us all!" and yet they didn't continue either. Skyrim is part of the Empire, the majority obviously wanted peace at the time too. If they didn't, why wasn't Istlod facing rebellion? Why wait for his inexperienced son to stage a coup? Hell, Ulfric didn't even get much support when he was going on about the Talos Ban.

It is always easy to state what "we should have done" after the fact. When you know more of the situation.

Even if the Empire was able to continue, they didn't know at the time. Would have taken years to figure out the strengths of the Dominion from gathering intelligence, decoding documents and forming a picture from what went on in Hammerfell. By the time the Empire may have realized they could have got a better deal, they were already facing so many internal problems that would take decades to sort out.

As for the Thalmor facing problems with bandits, it is unlikely. They spent a great number of years purging folks who disagreed with them, hunting down those who even escaped to other provinces. If I remember correctly from the TES Novels the Thalmor were wiping out tons of rebels and the Imperial Agents the Empire was supporting inside Valenwood. I would suspect the Thalmor to even bribe pirates and bandits to go raid the Empire's lands. Not like pirates/bandits have any morals.

The Thalmor are fighting for ideology, they use fear and manipulation. I doubt they pay their soldiers a lot, and I doubt the soldiers would "quit" if they didn't get paid at the time. Though the Aldmeri Dominion are in fact quite wealthy, enough to make the EETC turn their heads about trade agreements.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Redguards were united as one, they wanted to continue. Not a miniority, but the vast majority. Redguards are trained fighters, children are expected to learn martial ability, their rulers expected to study tactics and strategy. Of course they would win on their own in their homeland, fighting on their terms? I'd suspect they'd raid Aldmeri lines, burn stockpiles, assassinate Dominion patrols in cities they occupied.

When you're facing guerrilla warfare and conventional warfare at the same time in a foreign land, waiting weeks for supplies fighting an enemy who are trained in warfare from childhood in lands they know like the back of their hands? fl*ffing Talos had to sign a treaty with the Redguards after they resisted his occupation, killed his Dragon and assassinated the second highest military officer.

 

[nogz]

First of all, I wasn't talking about the Stormcloaks willingness to fight, that's established as it is. I was talking about the Nords as a whole during the Great War. The accounts I was citing were from the Stormcloaks, many of whom were fighting for the Empire during the war. Also if I recall a big chunk of the Imperial army was made of Nords. So it's safe to assume Skyrim would have continued to fight tooth and nail if only the Emperor wasn't a big pussy.

Second, Skyrim never agreed to plops. Actually no one was asked about anything. Balgruuf and all the other Jarls say pretty much the same thing:

"Was I given a chance to object to the terms of the treaty? No. The Jarls weren't asked. We were told. And we had to like it."

So IT WAS just the Emperor being the Thalmor's bitch and caving in, pleasing his masters. End of story.

Of course everyone wants the civil war to be over as fast as possible. It's war, no one's content, to quote Tywin.

Why wait 26 years? It makes little sense, ask the people who wrote it. There are few potential explanations though, first the Thalmor needed some time to establish their embassies, agents etc. so the Talos ban wasn't enforced at first and people were relatively safe from Thalmor persecution. Second, most of the people who now fight probably expected the Empire to be quickly back on their feet and not being such bitches to the Thalmor. So what happens in those 20 or so years? The Thalmor continues and expands their persecution of the humans, the Empire does nothing. The people are starting to be really pissed off. Then a great leader emerges. Boom. Done. If it was a bit more realistic I'd say it should have happened in 5 to 10 years, but then again that's the writers problem.

So the redguards are united but the Empire wasn't more or less united during the war? It's a sure bet they'll win!? One province vs the Dominion is a sure bet, but the whole of the Empire isn't so the Empire better surrender? I don't understand that 'logic' but Ok.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Nords as a whole, the Stormcloaks do not represent all the Nordic people. Citing accounts by Stormcloaks who once served in the Legion doesn't mean anything, the Stormcloaks were a miniority for many years. There are Nord ex-Legionaries who aren't fighting for the Stormcloaks and disagree with them. How can you cite the words of the miniority of the last twenty five years and say "well I mean as a whole".

The Imperial Army is made up of all races, there being a good chunk of Nords in the ranks doesn't mean anything. Stormcloaks do not represent the Nordic people, the ex-Legionaries who are in the Stormcloaks do not represent the Imperial Legion. There are Nord Legionaries who are fighting against the Stormcloaks, and the standard Legions filled with Nords would be down in Cyrodiil on the Dominion's border.

Secondly Skyrim did agree under High King Istlod. The Emperor can't just do whatever the wants and the provinces have no choice, the Council has to agree and the head of states in the provinces have to agree. The Redguards as a whole wanted to continue and they did, you say the Nords as a whole wanted to and yet they didn't do it. If Skyrim wanted to continue as a whole, and didn't cause "Emperor was a big pussy" then they're even bigger pussies for not standing up like the Redguards did.

Why can the Redguards fight on when they want to, but Skyrim who suddenly as a whole wants to keep fighting doesn't even attempt it? Not only that, but they're silent about it save a miniority militia? You don't wait near three decades to be pissed about something like it only happened yesterday:

"Grandpa we're learning about the Great War."
"Oh yeah, we smacked around them elven bastards alright."
"We learned about the White-Gold Concordat"
"The what?"
"White-Gold Concordat, which is why Talos is banned."
"Banned who?"
"Talos."
"They banned Talos!?!"
"...yeah?"
"Get my axe boy!"

So the redguards are united but the Empire wasn't more or less united during the war? It's a sure bet they'll win!? One province vs the Dominion is a sure bet, but the whole of the Empire isn't so the Empire better surrender? I don't understand that 'logic' but Ok.

The Redguards uniting with two armies + citizens/nobles who are trained in many forms of warfare fighting for their homes. That is a majority wanting to fight. They're fighting those occupying them, who are also quite weakened thanks to the Empire's men.

The Empire had their Legions combat ineffective. Every remaining Legion with less than half their soldiers fit for duty, three Legions completely gone. Skyrim had lost the Reach, Cyrodiil had lost all but Bruma for over a year. Most of the Empire wanted peace, majority in Skyrim, High Rock and Cyrodiil wanted the peace.

This isn't "Empire couldn't handle it, but one province could!!!"

The Empire took the worst of the fighting, the Legions were involved in the major battles. It was the Legion that had left the Dominion too weakened to advance in Hammerfell, it was the Legion veterans that had formed the core of the army that sent the Thalmor army retreating across the desert.

You can say "Dominion took losses too" and they did, that is absolutely true. The problem is they didn't take enough losses in time, they were still able to continue for years where the Empire had thrown everything it had left in the last battle. It was the Empire that was desperate for the treaty, they were on the brink of destruction for the last year.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'll explain it smaller so you don't need a wall of text.

Cyrodiil is vital to the Empire, it is what holds it up. Skyrim cannot support Cyrodiil and itself during war, look at Skyrim we see in the game. The small war has only been in full swing for months and already the Holds are falling apart.

Now Skyrim and High Rock have been aiding the war effort alongside Cyrodiil which is the best province of Tamriel with climate and location. Cyrodiil is out of the picture, everything is in ruins. Legion supply depots were destroyed, villages wiped out and every major city fallen except Bruma and the recaptured Imperial City (Which was sacked, looted and burned). They can't fund or supply a war and army on the march.

Is Skyrim going to pick up the slack? We've seen what happens in Skyrim due to lack of soldiers protecting the roads. Are you honestly telling me that Skyrim is going to supply half or over half the resources for the war effort?

It is one thing for the Redguards to fight in their homeland supplying themselves, where civilians are trained to fight and they still have several cities not touched by the war. Another to have Skyrim and High Rock to supply a foreign war effort alone for several more years.

 

[nogz]

I don't agree. I said they would have continued the fight behind the Emperor and for the Empire, I didn't say anything about them fighting alone at that time. I think the betrayal by the Emperor was a major blow for the Nord's morale. They also didn't have much to lose beside the banning of Talos, also let's not forget the fake promise to Ulfric that if he freed the Reach they would have been able to worship Talos without a problem. The redguard were about to lose half of their territory, no wonder they all united against the Thalmor. While I do consider the banning of Talos a good enough reason on its own, we have to go back to the first 5 to 10 something years after the war where things in Skyrim pretty much continued as they were before the war. If the Thalmor wanted a big chunk of Skyrim's territory or were enforcing the ban of Talos right away I'm pretty sure the civil war and / or some form of guerrilla warfare against the Thalmor / Empire would have started right away.

Of course most of the civilians would want peace by that time, being involved in a brutal war and everything, but what has that do to with the situation of the Emperor's capitulation? Are wars won by wanting to have peace? No, they are won by fighting. And the Emperor chose not to at the time. Whatever it is a good move or not, it's up to debate. You know my position on it. But even with all the "we have to give up now so we can fight later" talk there is no denying that that decision alone is pretty much the whole reason the Empire is crumbling as of now. Yes, they could have lost the war with even greater loses, but we can't know that for sure. At the same time we do know what happens if you capitulate - one of the provinces leaves (not only that but they now hate the Empire for a number of reasons), and other goes into open revolt against the Empire. How is any of this beneficial to the supposed "we'll fight later" mentality? Well, of course none of it is. But that's what happens when you make grand, sweeping ill informed decisions as the Emperor did.

ps Doesn't the quest about the redguard woman in Whiterun shows that they had traitor and collaborator problems on their own? Do we even know how much of Hammerfell was behind the war effort? How do you know the civilian population didn't want to end the war before the win too?

 

[DrunkenMage]

I don't agree. I said they would have continued the fight behind the Emperor and for the Empire, I didn't say anything about them fighting alone at that time. I think the betrayal by the Emperor was a major blow for the Nord's morale. They also didn't have much to lose beside the banning of Talos, also let's not forget the fake promise to Ulfric that if he freed the Reach they would have been able to worship Talos without a problem. The redguard were about to lose half of their territory, no wonder they all united against the Thalmor. While I do consider the banning of Talos a good enough reason on its own, we have to go back to the first 5 to 10 something years after the war where things in Skyrim pretty much continued as they were before the war. If the Thalmor wanted a big chunk of Skyrim's territory or were enforcing the ban of Talos right away I'm pretty sure the civil war and / or some form of guerrilla warfare against the Thalmor / Empire would have started right away.

Except Cyrodiil is in ruins, they can't supply anything. The wealthiest Holds in Skyrim can barely supply the smallest fraction of the Empire's army and themselves. That is the Reach included, and during the Great War the Reach was lost. So how would Skyrim supply an even greater number of the Empire's Military in foreign lands?

Lets not kid ourselves here, Skyrim struggles with itself at times even when getting resources from the outside. It is a harsh place.

The Thalmor Justiciars arrived in Skyrim twenty five years ago.

The Redguards were not about to lose half their lands, the Dominion controlled the Southern coastline save Hagethe. They were left too weakened and then were pushed back across Hammerfell by an army with veteran legionaries forming the core.
The Dominion controlled maybe two or three cities, they would have controlled more except the Legion stopped them at Skaven. Then they were driven back.

ps Doesn't the quest about the redguard woman in Whiterun shows that they had traitor and collaborator problems on their own?

No, that questline is very unclear. The side saying about a traitor goes on about "continued resistance" against the Dominion in Hammerfell. So either he's lying or the Redguard victory against the Thalmor isn't all it is made out to be.

Do we even know how much of Hammerfell was behind the war effort? How do you know the civilian population didn't want to end the war before the win too?

Both political factions, the Redguards are divided by faction. So if it were both sides, then a vast majority. The civilian population are trained in warfare (at least the Redguards), some may have wanted peace but not at the cost of Dominion occupation.

Redguards are as twitchy about elves as Nords are, so you tell me how much of the native population of Skyrim would accept elven military occupation?

 

[Rimfaxe96]

If I remember correctly from the TES Novels the Thalmor were wiping out tons of rebels and the Imperial Agents the Empire was supporting inside Valenwood.

Correct. The Empire couldn't even properly supply their folks and the rebels in Valenwood anymore. Things looked pretty bad there - 131 years before the Great War broke out.

I would suspect the Thalmor to even bribe pirates and bandits to go raid the Empire's lands. Not like pirates/bandits have any morals.

Confirmed by the novels. They supply a bandit group with the habit of taking heads.

I'd suspect they'd raid Aldmeri lines, burn stockpiles, assassinate Dominion patrols in cities they occupied.

So, basically Assassin's Creed - Elder Scrolls style? Oh Lord, please make this game happen!

 

[nogz]

Probably not many Redguards would be Ok with military occupation of their land, that's for sure lol. It's not half of if, just the coastline, my mistake.

As for how the war would have continued if the Emperor had any spine left in him. I don't know, it's anyone's guess. You again look only at the Empire's loses and make a case that the treaty was the better option. I think that's the wrong way to look at the situation. Yes, the Empire was in bad shape, but so was the Dominion. Probably a big reason why the Redguards were able to kick their butt too. I think the Emperor made a rash decision, part of the lore supports this as well. Not to mention everything that happened since the WGC treaty as well. The state of the Empire as of now with the civil war in Skyrim and everything is not even close to what the Emperor wanted out of the treaty. You can blame the Stormcloaks all you want and you'd be right too but at the end of the day, they weren't the ones that set all of this in motion. Part of the blame goes back to the Emperor.

And the bottom line for me is that the Empire is crumbling as it is. It lacks leadership, morale etc., I'd take my chances with Ulfric any day of the week for reasons stated multiple times by now. That's the bottom line for me.

 

[DrunkenMage]

As for how the war would have continued if the Emperor had any spine left in him. I don't know, it's anyone's guess. You again look only at the Empire's loses and make a case that the treaty was the better option. I think that's the wrong way to look at the situation. Yes, the Empire was in bad shape, but so was the Dominion.

Because we're looking at the point of view of the Empire. We know the Dominion's losses were heavy well after the war ended between the Dominion and Hammerfell. During the war/signing of the White-Gold Concordat the Empire was in very bad shape, they had lost all their intelligence operatives inside Dominion territory. It is extremely unlikely the Empire at the time would even know the strength of the Dominion, what they knew at the time was:

a) Their Legions were decimated.
b) Cyrodiil was in ruins.
c) The Dominion still had another main army, and the possibility of secondary Aldmeri forces still inside Cyrodiil/Valenwood border.
d) Aldmeri were entrenched within parts of occupied Hammerfell.

By the time the Empire would even be aware of the Dominion's weakness it was too late, there were too many internal problems to fix. Cities were erupting into violence due to lack of Imperial authority, a kingdom in Wayrest was lost to pirates, a plague is active in parts of High Rock.When things actually got stable within the Empire... Lo and behold High King Torygg is killed, the Jarls start infighting and choosing sides. You can see this in journals/dialogue on things relating to Cyrodiil/High Rock.

It isn't like the Empire has been sitting around playing with their thumbs. The Legion has been actively fixing problems, restoring order and preparing for the second war.

Probably a big reason why the Redguards were able to kick their butt too.

Most likely, but it took five extra years the Empire was unable to give. Even with the Empire's involvement it would take a few years, not to mention months of standing on alert for the signing of whatever new treaty in case negotiation failed. The Empire would not recover if it waited, it'd have collapsed ten or more years ago.

I think the Emperor made a rash decision, part of the lore supports this as well. Not to mention everything that happened since the WGC treaty as well. The state of the Empire as of now with the civil war in Skyrim and everything is not even close to what the Emperor wanted out of the treaty. You can blame the Stormcloaks all you want and you'd be right too but at the end of the day, they weren't the ones that set all of this in motion. Part of the blame goes back to the Emperor.

The Emperor made the best decision with the information he had, and many agreed with it for decades. I doubt any of us would choose any differently in his shoes. What the Emperor wanted was time and even if you hate the man, the White-Gold Concordat provided that time to rebuild. Imperials or Stormcloaks it provided time, a pause between fights that both Cyrodiil and Skyrim needed.

The Empire may have collapsed and Skyrim would fall soon after. As one loading screen mentions the WGC is the reason the Empire survived, and that is what matters.

The Empire surviving is far more dangerous to the Thalmor than whatever mankind could throw at them thirty years ago. What mankind can throw at them now/near future is a lot more powerful.

 

[nogz]

No, he rushed to sign the treaty. That's simply not up for debate, especially given the unraveling that happened after that with Hammerfell. If it was the best possible option given the information he had why did he not even consider or ask how Hammerfell would feel giving part of their land to the Thalmor? Why not negotiate a better deal? Why sign the original treaty? All of that is simply an afterthought for him. Just to keep up with the treaty he had to release Hammerfell from the Empire (which also by the way benefits the Thalmor agenda immensely). Even the lore says he thought that after retaking the capitol that'd be the best time to make peace, that's why he rushed to sign it.

That's why Hammerfell and the Jarls of Skyrim had no saying in it. There was no time to ask or consider their opinion on the subject. He thought the noose is sure to tightened around his neck, ironically because he was in so much hurry to 'save' the Empire, now the Empire is crumbling to pieces around him. How you can't see this is beyond me..

ps Also 'many agreed with him' is not true. Even in the Imperial cities of Skyrim most Jarls think the deal was retarded. They like the Empire and all, but even they see and realize how bad and rushed the treaty was. Not to mention Hammerfell rejected it right away.

 

[DrunkenMage]

No, he rushed to sign the treaty. That's simply not up for debate, especially given the unraveling that happened after that with Hammerfell. If it was the best possible option given the information he had while did he not even consider or ask how Hammerfell would feel giving part of their land to the Thalmor? Why not negotiate a better deal? Why sign the original treaty? All of that is simply an afterthought for him. Just to keep up with the treaty he had to release Hammerfell from the Empire (which also by the way benefits the Thalmor agenda immensely). Even the lore says he thought that after retaking the capitol that'd be the best time to make peace, that's why he rushed to sign it.

That's why Hammerfell and the Jarls of Skyrim had no saying in it. There was no time to ask or consider their opinion on the subject. He thought the noose is sure to tightened around his neck, ironically because he was in so much hurry to 'save' the Empire, now the Empire is crumbling to pieces around him. How you can't see this is beyond me..

The treaty was not completely rushed, time between retaking Imperial City to signing the White-Gold Concordat took most of the year.

It has nothing to do with "asking how Hammerfell would feel" the Dominion already controlled those lands they sought to keep. What deal was Titus going to make? "Leave those lands you control, which we cannot force you to leave without a fight that we do not feel we can continue?"

Skyrim is not a democracy, the Jarls never have a say. The High King of Skyrim at the time agreed to the terms, and the Jarls were forced to accept his decision. Even Ulfric mentions that they will do whatever he decides is in the best interests of Skyrim, he even has Galmar ensure the Jarls follow his orders.

The Emperor cannot force anything without others. The Empire is not a complete dictatorship where all the power and decision making is in a single man, not since the Septim Dynasty lost that. The Emperor only has the power of veto in Imperial Politics, other than that they're mostly figureheads.

The Empire is still standing, had it thrown everything it had left after Red Ring it would not overthrow the Aldmeri Dominion. Even if they fought on for a better treaty, they would lose more men. They had barely enough to restore order, any less and the Empire would have collapsed taking Skyrim and High Rock with it.

If Skyrim and High Rock were forced to give more resources to keep the Empire going without Cyrodiil, they would collapse. Their people would starve, like they're starving in Skyrim now.

How long do you think Skyrim could continue? Half of Skyrim is near bankrupt, unable to pay for their limited Hold Guards or buy food from just supplying a tiny fraction of the Empire's military. Would they be able to even double that number? What about five times or ten times the number of what they're doing now?

Skyrim will collapse within a year, followed by High Rock soon after.

It isn't worth the risk, not when the reward is so low. Better you survive now to rebuild, than risk losing everything because you were unable to swallow your pride and make sacrifices.

 

[General Charles Xander]

No, he rushed to sign the treaty. That's simply not up for debate, especially given the unraveling that happened after that with Hammerfell. If it was the best possible option given the information he had why did he not even consider or ask how Hammerfell would feel giving part of their land to the Thalmor? Why not negotiate a better deal? Why sign the original treaty? All of that is simply an afterthought for him. Just to keep up with the treaty he had to release Hammerfell from the Empire (which also by the way benefits the Thalmor agenda immensely). Even the lore says he thought that after retaking the capitol that'd be the best time to make peace, that's why he rushed to sign it.

That's why Hammerfell and the Jarls of Skyrim had no saying in it. There was no time to ask or consider their opinion on the subject. He thought the noose is sure to tightened around his neck, ironically because he was in so much hurry to 'save' the Empire, now the Empire is crumbling to pieces around him. How you can't see this is beyond me..

Of course he rushed for the treaty. "The Great War" and other sources state (and I for one agree) that soon after the retaking of the capital, he signed from a position of power. In fact, it also seems like a middle finger to the Thalmor that they agreed to the treaty after it was already declined. I mean, to me, it doesn't seem like the Thalmor would be the kind of organization to hold on to a treaty and think "Well, let's just keep this just in case...".

He didn't need to ask Hammerfell because Hammerfell is part of the Empire. If they found the terms distasteful, which they did, to much of the Empire's despair, they could just leave.

The original treaty was not signed. Rather, this new treaty has similarity but now the Thalmor have terms they must abide by. What they are, we have no idea.

Hammerfell had a complete say in the treaty. Their response was to leave. Why didn't Skyrim? Because even though some didn't like it at all, most of the Jarls knew that stability and peace was better than the continuation of slaughter and an unknown outcome for the world. Power, gold, strength, honor. All of it means nothing if you are dead. That is why they didn't speak up, that is why they stayed strong, and that is why we are still alive.

 

[nogz]

Well, I guess if you make it clear to your enemy that you aren't capable nor willing to fight, be that at the fields or the table, then yeah. Surrendering does seem the best option.

As for the rest, there is not much to say beside that the Empire is still crumbling, probably more faster and worse if they were to continue the fight.. well, unless you consider Hammerfell being out and Skyrim being in open revolt (and your citizens being arrested, tortured and killed) to mean that the Empire is safe, rebuilding and everything is sunshine and rainbows..

ps. General, it was even worse, the Empire had to pay money to the Dominion now. There isn't a single source I can find that says the Dominion was worse off the deal. If anything it's the reverse, they get everything that they wanted in the first place. Beside Hammerfell but that's because it's no longer part of the Empire and they weren't able to continue their occupation of it.

"A large tribute of gold would be paid to the Aldmeri Dominion, the Empire would give a large portion of southern Hammerfell to the Dominion, the worship of Talos would be banned from the Empire, the Blades would be forced to disband, and the Thalmor may have free reign in the Imperial Provinces, including Skyrim, to enforce the terms of the treaty."

I also fail to see how the treaty after the war is a middle finger to the Dominion in any way, shape or form. Is the Emperor a 5 year old now or what? If I'm a bully coming after your money and you give it to me not in the first period but during the school lunch.. yeah you totally showed me man, I'd be so pissed..

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire was at the brink of destruction, they were dancing on a knife's edge. Cyrodiil effectively in ruins, the Legions decimated and all under half strength.

Lets just say the Emperor decided "fl*ff you, I'm continuing the war!" Skyrim and High Rock are now completely funding the war effort alone, their provinces are falling apart, their rulers losing control over their holdings. But every resource is diverted to fill the hole that losing Cyrodiil left.

So the Dominion and Empire fight on, the Empire hoping to get super awesome terms. All it would take is one battle gone wrong to finish off the Empire and ensuring they wouldn't recover.

For what? A stalemate! Titus Mede II should risk the downfall of three provinces for a stalemate? If it was fighting to wipe the Thalmor out, okay... But not a stalemate.

When the best thing you're going to get out of this agreement is not banning Talos, because hey at least you can pray while plops hits the fan.

 

[DrunkenMage]

"A large tribute of gold would be paid to the Aldmeri Dominion, the Empire would give a large portion of southern Hammerfell to the dominion, the worship of Talos would be banned from the empire, the Blades would be forced to disband, and the Thalmor may have free reign in the Imperial Provinces, including Skyrim, to enforce the terms of the treaty."

I also fail to see how the treaty after the war is a middle finger to the Dominion in any way, shape or form. Is the Emperor a 5 year old now or what? If I'm a bully coming after your money and you give it to me not in the first period but during the school lunch.. yeah you totally showed me man, I'd be so pissed..

... No. The staggering tributes of gold was the Thalmor Ultimatum. Not the White-Gold Concordat. The White-Gold Concordat was not the exact same as the ultimatum, the negative terms are almost identical. Almost being the key word here.

Given the fact the Empire gave chests of gold to the Jarls right after the war ended... I'd say it is more likely the Thalmor were forced to give the Empire gold than the other way around.

The White-Gold Concordat was a treaty signed in 4E 175 between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion that ended the Great War. The conditions of the treaty outlawed the worship of Talos in the Empire, formally disbanded the Blades, and delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

[nogz]

Now you are presenting a doomsday scenario for the war so it can fit your argument about the treaty. In truth there isn't ever going to be an agreeable way out of a discussion about 'if the war continued' simply because there are so many variables. I can easily make up the best possible scenario for the Empire if the war continued. But what's the point? And besides, the lore says otherwise anyway. I was just stating my opinion, from that position he should have fought on. The aftermath of the treaty makes it pretty clear that if anything he simply prolonged the pain instead of stopping it. Even more so, whatever he intended it or not, things now are way worse for the Empire. If the Empire wins the civil war in Skyrim fast and the next Emperor is more capable maybe the Empire has some chance in the next war. I'd still go with Ulfric though.

ps. Maybe the Dominion gave the Empire gold, being the aggressor and what not or for some other reason. I'd be surprised though, that's not what usually would happen if you win.

 

[Ancano]

"A large tribute of gold would be paid to the Aldmeri Dominion, the Empire would give a large portion of southern Hammerfell to the dominion, the worship of Talos would be banned from the empire, the Blades would be forced to disband, and the Thalmor may have free reign in the Imperial Provinces, including Skyrim, to enforce the terms of the treaty."

I also fail to see how the treaty after the war is a middle finger to the Dominion in any way, shape or form. Is the Emperor a 5 year old now or what? If I'm a bully coming after your money and you give it to me not in the first period but during the school lunch.. yeah you totally showed me man, I'd be so pissed..

... No. The staggering tributes of gold was the Thalmor Ultimatum. Not the White-Gold Concordat. The White-Gold Concordat was not the exact same as the ultimatum, the negative terms are almost identical. Almost being the key word here.

Given the fact the Empire gave chests of gold to the Jarls right after the war ended... I'd say it is more likely the Thalmor were forced to give the Empire gold than the other way around.

The White-Gold Concordat was a treaty signed in 4E 175 between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion that ended the Great War. The conditions of the treaty outlawed the worship of Talos in the Empire, formally disbanded the Blades, and delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion.

The Thalmor gave the Empire peace. No money. lolz Given the attitude of most Justiciars, it's abundantly clear the Empire got the worse of that deal.

No, the only out for the Empire on that was the treaty was nearly identical. The Empire probably did not have to pay tribute is all, in exchange for the Empire footing the bill for Thalmor embassies and traveling expenses I'm shor.

At the end of the Great War, the Empire was in no position to make demands and the Thalmor were in no position to force them. What it boiled down to, the Imperial armies were drained and the Provinces were decaying after all the Civil War and neglect - during the war - with the Empire primarily focused on protecting Cyrodiil.

It was however, a great WIN for the Thalmor, in many ways. And always remember, no matter - who wins - in Skyrim the Thalmor will still pull another victory out of that. And I also think it's safe to say they are prepared for the Emperor's demise as well.

No matter what happens, count on the Thalmor to be prepared and to also be several steps ahead, even in what you would call, defeat.