Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

You simply assume that if Ulfric wins, Skyrim will somehow be more weak than before which is an assumption and nothing more.

Skyrim is weak due to the war, that isn't an assumption. No matter which side wins the province has become more weak than it was before, and needs a lot of time and resources to make it whole again.

You always throw around "Ulfric dies 50% of the time", ask yourself what if 50% of the time he not only wins, but rebuilds Skyrim into a great nation who can deal with the elf problem?

I "throw around" Ulfric dies 50% of the time because it is a valid point. Given that Bethesda rarely focuses on a canon event with more than one choice (Not since Daggerfall or Arena?) and obviously both can't be true.

"What if he wins, rebuilds and makes a great nation that can deal with the elf problem" Great? Though one could just say "what if the Thalmor suddenly vanish like the Dwemer and everyone worried for nothing"

I go by what I see, what people are saying. Look at both sides of the conflict. Stormcloaks have valid reasons, as does the Empire.

I see Ulfric who does what pleases the crowd, he himself basically admits that to Galmar after his victory speech. He's obsessed with a good story, and his own image. Him wanting the Dragonborn to kill him, toying with Tullius' life to create the dramatic moment and even having his blacksmith fashion him a Blade made to look like the one carried by an ancient Nordic ruler.

No, no the Empire is better because letting our citizens be tortured and killed is Ok.. for some reason.

I find the Empire better because they can reach the Aldmeri Dominion, they have the resources, they have the soldiers. They're also planning to go into that war, both the Dominion and Empire mention a war with each other. Empire invading or Aldmeri invading, it will still lead to war.

It isn't okay that the Thalmor are allowed to torture and kill people. Never said it has been okay, just because it isn't okay doesn't mean I have to side with the Stormcloaks. People are getting tortured and killed a lot in Skyrim by bandits and rogue wizards who are using the Stormcloak Rebellion to freely operate.

The Thalmor Justiciars are the least of the worries for citizens in Skyrim, most fear more about the bandits, dragons and even fear the Stormcloaks/Imperials. Most people can't afford food, a lot of food is stolen by bandits raiding the farms.

Being neutral isn't an option, as the Stormcloaks remark "You're either with us, or you're against us." Galmar is cute with his "I oppose tyranny"... Obviously he doesn't oppose tyranny if it is the Stormcloaks who are doing it.

So the Stormcloaks is better because making the issue a hundred times worse is Ok... for some reason.

Look, I don't have time to go endlessly back and forth with an appeaser. Bow down to your masters, lick their boots and be a good appeaser. I'd take my chances with Ulfric. End of story.

I don't have time to go endlessly back and forth with a closed minded fool. Who needs to bring "Nazi" or "ISIS" comparisons to either try strengthen their point and prove Godwin's Law.

Bow down to your masters, thank them for the indirect aid they provide you. Also thank them for their concern to show up at Helgen trying to save their boy Ulfric from the chopping block.

"General Tullius, stop! By the authority of the Thalmor, I’m taking custody of these prisoners."

You can also thank Tullius and the Legion for not handing you over to the bitch.

 

[nogz]

So using real world comparisons to make a point is wrong, but using unused dialogue from the game is a valid form of argument?

You are hilarious.

And that's not even to mention that what the Thalmor 'plans' may be for Ulfric and what they may try to 'use' him for is beside the point. A puppet with no strings is not a real puppet. The Empire on the other hand..

Continue with the wall texts to every 2 of my sentences, with imagination on overdrive. They are amusing me.

 

[Dar]

"Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim... A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed."
-excerpt from the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak

Can't we just agree that everyone is a puppet to the Thalmor and get on with our lives. No matter which side of the civil war wins, the Thalmor will still have the advantage over them. While I do believe that the Empire would have a better chance (mostly due to being on larger scale) it's very possible that the Thalmor could simply raze whichever side wins. After all, they already almost did it, when the Empire was more prepared.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[nogz]

No, because that dossier means nothing. All it talks about is how somehow in some point in the future they for some reason may have any leverage or even contact with Ulfric. Which is absurd beyond belief unless we assume Ulfric is going to pull 180 and betray everything that he stands for (aka become a carbon copy of the Emperor lol).

It might turn out to be a fun and interesting twist, but also a completely lazy rewriting of his character.

What the Thalmor want the most is for the war to go on as long as possible, that's really the only way they are benefiting from the situation. A quick victory on either side is bad for them, although I'd argue more if Ulfic wins than the Empire.

Then again, we'll see. We'll have to wait for the next game (assuming it'll be about a story in some future point) to shed some light on what actually happened with the civil war and all that jazz.

Personally I think they'll go for Empire victory or some bs where Ulfric wins but instead of Skyrim getting better it collapses amid all the inner strife. Which should happen to the Empire if anything..

 

[DrunkenMage]

So using real world comparisons to make a point is wrong, but using unused dialogue from the game is a valid form of argument?

You are hilarious.

Not at all. Had I sought to use a valid argument for the last part of my post, I'd have used the Thalmor Dossier's passage on Helgen. I could refer you to Dar's post for the text, if it makes you feel any better.

Though I doubt Elenwen and Tullius were merely doing a Star Wars Return of the Jedi nod to each other for a bit.

 

[DrunkenMage]

"Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim... A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed."
-excerpt from the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak

Can't we just agree that everyone is a puppet to the Thalmor and get on with our lives. No matter which side of the civil war wins, the Thalmor will still have the advantage over them. While I do believe that the Empire would have a better chance (mostly due to being on larger scale) it's very possible that the Thalmor could simply raze whichever side wins. After all, they already almost did it, when the Empire was more prepared.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Everyone in this thread (Or they should) does accept that the Thalmor are using both sides. Though the Imperials are starting to be aware the Thalmor are behind it, catching onto their game. They managed to capture Ulfric despite their apparent efforts.

Though adding onto your last part. The Empire being more prepared last time would be incorrect, they are more prepared now than they were before the Great War. The Dominion's success in the Great War was largely due to surprise.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Can't we just agree that everyone is a puppet to the Thalmor and get on with our lives.

Not quite. The Thalmor still don't dare to openly act out of turn in Imperial territory.

Quote from a guard at Northwatch Keep during the quest "Missing In Action":
"Even if we had a prisoner by that name, the only way he'd be released is by order of the Imperial Legion."

 

[DrunkenMage]

Can't we just agree that everyone is a puppet to the Thalmor and get on with our lives.

Not quite. The Thalmor still don't dare to openly act out of turn in Imperial territory.

Quote from a guard at Northwatch Keep during the quest "Missing In Action":
"Even if we had a prisoner by that name, the only way he'd be released is by order of the Imperial Legion."

Also with Thalmor Execution Orders, they mention if caught by the authorities the Dominion is unable to help them.

 

[nogz]

As if the Thalmor would have any problems making the Empire writing and signing any orders they want. They are arresting, torturing and murdering people for worshiping Talos already with no problem. LoL. The guard might as well be bs the player or this is just a game mechanic so you have to release the prisoner some other way.

Also the executioners are basically expendable assassins so why would the Thalmor bother with providing resources if they are caught? If the assassins were valuable the Thalmor would make sure they are not to be touched by the Empire. Not a big deal or a problem, since they already do pretty much whatever they please anyway.

Arresting, torturing and murdering..
Not having free reign to do whatever they want..

Pick one.

 

[General Charles Xander]

As if the Thalmor would have any problems making the Empire writing and signing any orders they want. They are arresting, torturing and murdering people for worshiping Talos already with no problem. LoL. The guard might as well be bs the player or this is just a game mechanic so you have to release the prisoner some other way.

Also the executioners are basically expendable assassins so why would the Thalmor bother with providing resources if they are caught? If the assassins were valuable the Thalmor would make sure they are not to be touched by the Empire. Not a big deal or a problem, since they already do pretty much whatever they please anyway.

Arresting, torturing and murdering..
Not having free reign to do whatever they want..

Pick one.

The Thalmor do not own the Empire. They don't order them around. The only things that *both* sides have to abide by is the WGC and we don't even know the terms that the Thalmor have to "honor", all we know is what the Empire has to "enforce". Therefor, the Thalmor cannot "order" them to sign anything.

The only thing that is valuable to the Thalmor are their own ideals.

Taking a punch to the face, rest and heal then fight back when healed.

Or...

Taking a punch to the face, punching yourself in the face, telling your best friend to f*** off and try to fight with one arm cut off.

Pick one.

 

[Ancano]

As if the Thalmor would have any problems making the Empire writing and signing any orders they want. They are arresting, torturing and murdering people for worshiping Talos already with no problem. LoL. The guard might as well be bs the player or this is just a game mechanic so you have to release the prisoner some other way.

Also the executioners are basically expendable assassins so why would the Thalmor bother with providing resources if they are caught? If the assassins were valuable the Thalmor would make sure they are not to be touched by the Empire. Not a big deal or a problem, since they already do pretty much whatever they please anyway.

Arresting, torturing and murdering..
Not having free reign to do whatever they want..

Pick one.

The Thalmor do not own the Empire. They don't order them around. The only things that *both* sides have to abide by is the WGC and we don't even know the terms that the Thalmor have to "honor", all we know is what the Empire has to "enforce". Therefor, the Thalmor cannot "order" them to sign anything.

The only thing that is valuable to the Thalmor are their own ideals.

Taking a punch to the face, rest and heal then fight back when healed.

Or...

Taking a punch to the face, punching yourself in the face, telling your best friend to f*** off and try to fight with one arm cut off.

Pick one.

Thalmor have diplomatic immunity. Their real chance at power will come once the Emperor vacates the thrown and then count on them pursuing that too.

The thing you're missing however, is the Thalmor dictated the terms of the WGC, minus a few things the treaty was virtually identical to their original request(s).

The Empire is sitting on the edge of a slippery slope, sliding downward and has enough time to make (1) more move before the end. The Thalmor are positioned to try again with no strings attached.

So whatever the Empire does it has to be a winning move and keep in mind that TMII didn't win he settled. Thalmor have the luxury to try again and again and again and again until we get it right.

Also, it isn't uncommon for the Dominion to work with Argonians. It's rumored a temp Thalmor / Argonian Alliance crushed Morrowind at the Thalmor's instigation. Furthermore, Argonian communities live in Grahtwood at the blessing of both the Dominion and Wood Elves.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Also with Thalmor Execution Orders, they mention if caught by the authorities the Dominion is unable to help them.

And their spies better keep their mouths shut about their true allegiance.

Description of target:
Bosmer male, goes by Malborn. Believed to be working for the Blades, so approach with caution.
He has inside knowledge of our procedures, so he will be warier than usual. Malborn is not his real name - he's now been identified as a survivor of a family of traitors who were all believed to have died in a fire in Falinesti.
Do not risk him evading us. He's likely trying to leave Skyrim. Make sure of your kill, and do not implicate us.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:J'datharr's_Note

 

[DrunkenMage]

As if the Thalmor would have any problems making the Empire writing and signing any orders they want. They are arresting, torturing and murdering people for worshiping Talos already with no problem. LoL. The guard might as well be bs the player or this is just a game mechanic so you have to release the prisoner some other way.

Also the executioners are basically expendable assassins so why would the Thalmor bother with providing resources if they are caught? If the assassins were valuable the Thalmor would make sure they are not to be touched by the Empire. Not a big deal or a problem, since they already do pretty much whatever they please anyway.

Arresting, torturing and murdering..
Not having free reign to do whatever they want..

Pick one.

Of course they would have problems making the Empire sign any orders they want. The Thalmor can only make the Empire uphold their end of the White-Gold Concordat, even then the Empire barely enforces it.

The Thalmor and the Empire are locked in a state of a Cold War so to speak. Both sides play the game of politics, the Thalmor won't break the treaty openly it would mean their deaths. So anytime they do "break it" they distance themselves from it. Thalmor and Empire spies have been fighting each other covertly for over a hundred years.

If the Thalmor can do whatever they want, why can't they arrest one simple Nord in Markarth without the player's help? Why don't they use the Legion to hunt down Blades? Why isn't the Dominion's military allowed into the Empire?

You claim the Thalmor own the Empire basically, that they can do whatever they want. If that is the case, why are they covert about their non-Talos Ban activities?

 

[DrunkenMage]

And their spies better keep their mouths shut about their true allegiance.

Description of target:
Bosmer male, goes by Malborn. Believed to be working for the Blades, so approach with caution.
He has inside knowledge of our procedures, so he will be warier than usual. Malborn is not his real name - he's now been identified as a survivor of a family of traitors who were all believed to have died in a fire in Falinesti.
Do not risk him evading us. He's likely trying to leave Skyrim. Make sure of your kill, and do not implicate us.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:J'datharr's_Note

I wonder how the Stormcloaks plan to deal with the hidden Thalmor assets and informants in Skyrim. Imperial Spies managed to take Falkreath for the Empire without using soldiers, the Stormcloaks are good when they can fight an enemy head on. Subterfuge is their weakness.

 

[hershangames]

Okay I I won't read the last pages 'cause it's too much for my brain, so I may repeat things:

-The imperials know they're being used as Thalmor puppets, and it's exactly because of that that they won't be it for long. Everyone in the empire is preparing for war.

The only reason they agreed to the white golden concordate, was to have time to better prepare, you know, like a little pause to regroup. They're just letting some things pass to be able to act without the elves's notice.

And for those that say that the whole Thalmor things is too much to just let pass, here's two things you should consider:

-First of all, if a Thalmor comes to you and asks you if you're a Thalmor believer, just say no! Come on dude, it's not that hard.
And, oh, you're a proud believer? Well then make your god proud by proving him you know how to stay alive.


-Two: just think of what the emperor feels. He's letting his people be killed for their beliefs in order to prepare, how do you think that feels? It feels awful. He probably has had a few nightmares already.

Just think about that before you think of a counterargument.

-

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[nogz]

Well, the problem with that reasoning is that you simply do not tolerate your citizens to be arrested, tortured and killed by foreign power no less, if you want to call yourself a leader. No sane leader would have agreed to the nazi elves demands. The Emperor showed poor judgment right when he was close to ultimate victory. Meaning he simply caved in and chose the easy way out. What or how he feels simply doesn't enter the picture. It's irrelevant. What now, are we supposed to let murderers or rapists off the hook just because they may 'feel' bad about it? Also I've said it before, whatever agreeing to go back to the negotiation table to end the war was the right move or not, is not an excuse for him to agree to everything the elves wanted in the first place. That's not just retarded, that's full capitulation, if he was that spineless he might as well saved himself the trouble and sign the treaty the first time around. It's not like he was backed into a corner, he was able to retook the capitol city. Who in their right mind surrenders after a victory? It all points to him simply giving up, whatever this was supposed to 'buy' the Empire time or not is also irrelevant. That's a fool's move because a) you have no idea if you are going to win the next war, and b) you grant all the wishes your enemy wanted in the first place. That's no, no and a big NO. You simply continue the fight, especially after a victory. Take Hammerfell for example, they were able to kick the Thalmor's butt. Yes, it was hard and brutal but they did it, not only that but they did it alone. Why would the whole Empire give up so suddenly if not for the Emperor losing his spine?

Also, the condition of the WGC regarding the Talos worship is so broad it'll be impossible to distinguish from people who actually believe and from people the Thalmor want removed. Be that because of some political power struggle or wanting to place anther one of their puppets into position they need or whatever. The idea that the Thalmor are going to go just after people who worship and not abuse this power or let you go just because you say you don't believe in Talos, is naive as hell. That's child's thinking. I was quite surprised that they didn't show that in the game. But really how hard can it be? The Thalmor would simply need to plant a Talos amulet in the house of someone they want gone and boom, it's done. Person dead, case closed.

They do showed that they are ready to torture someone endlessly until they get a "confession". So they are already 'abusing' their power. Be by prolonged torture or planting evidence or whatever doesn't really matter.

Arresting, torturing and killing the citizen of the Empire at their whim aside, let's not forget the whole point of the Talos ban. Which is to destroy the culture, pride and heritage of the humans and make them feel inferior to the elves. Once that's done, the Empire is as good as dead. And the next step in the humans enslavement process can begin. Be that a new invasion or more demands or whatever. The Stormcloaks fight now, because now is the time to fight. You take back your culture and pride, your soldiers and people's morale shoots through the roof and your mission of crushing the elves is half done.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

I wonder how the Stormcloaks plan to deal with the hidden Thalmor assets and informants in Skyrim. Imperial Spies managed to take Falkreath for the Empire without using soldiers, the Stormcloaks are good when they can fight an enemy head on. Subterfuge is their weakness.

The Thalmor informant Gissur is a beggar who makes a living from his job (considering that he carries gems in his inventory). Thanks to the Stormcloaks poverty increases, which means that the amount of potential spies increases. By the time Ulfric's fake-ancient sword is finished Thalmor spies will probably know him better than he knows himself.

 

[nogz]

Oh yeah, beggar spies, the ultimate weapon of the Thalmor. Because you know, beggars have so much access to places, meetings and stuff. I bet he regrets now letting that beggar asking him for a septim at the throne room or at his council while discussing plans and stuff..

Ulfric is probably pissing his pants, the poor lad..

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Oh yeah, beggar spies, the ultimate weapon of the Thalmor. Because you know, beggars have so much access to places, meetings and stuff. I bet he regrets now letting that beggar asking him for a septim at the throne room or at his council while discussing plans and stuff..

Ulfric is probably pissing his pants, the poor lad..

These beggars can easily gain rank or title in Ulfric's Skyrim, there will be a lot of high spots that need to be refilled. And those fellas are Nords, so the Stormcloaks won't suspect a thing.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Oh yeah, beggar spies, the ultimate weapon of the Thalmor. Because you know, beggars have so much access to places, meetings and stuff. I bet he regrets now letting that beggar asking him for a septim at the throne room or at his council while discussing plans and stuff..

Ulfric is probably pissing his pants, the poor lad..

Thalmor made an asset out of Ulfric, managed to either force or manipulate his cooperation for a time. Kept in contact with him proving his worth, until he become uncooperative to direct contact after the Markarth Incident. They could use a would be Jarl, rebel leader and future High King of this independent Skyrim. But suddenly they're not much of a threat.

You just mentioned before the Thalmor can frame whoever they want planting Talos Amulets, they could do the same with Imperial communiques, letters and journals even could frame people for various crimes.

Are the Thalmor going to suddenly start sucking at the thing they're most skilled at? Why? Because the Stormcloaks won?

Thalmor don't even need to try that hard on the people of Skyrim.