Empire vs Stormcloaks

[RedVideo]

New thought on Ulfric (since I loath the guy).

He was supposed to be Dohvakin, but once he had the power he was corrupted by it and decided to use it for his own purposes. Instead of saving the world he wanted to rule it. Thats why Talos passed the honor onto a humble non-human (Bosmer) like me.

 

[imaginepageant]

New thought on Ulfric (since I loath the guy).He was supposed to be Dohvakin

No, he was not. Ulfric learned the Way of the Voice by studying with the Greybeards. He is no more Dovahkiin than the Greybeards themselves.

 

[The Angry Nord]

The Empire DID try and fight back against the Thalmor. Ever heard about The Battle of the Red Ring?
Look it up here.Skyrim:The Great War - UESPWiki Scroll down when you click on the link and you'll find the story. It might change your opinion and show how badass the Empire can be.

 

[LegendaryVKickr]

My first character, an Imperial thief, almost sided up with the Stormcloaks simply because they weren't trying to axe my head off in Helgen and I was completely new to Elder Scrolls. Later on, my thief ended up siding with neither, since there was no good loot to be had. Needless to say, my thief ended up focusing on the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves guild instead.

Recently, I've been using a new character of mine, a narcissistic Altmer, who is focusing on the College questline, and is siding with the stormcloaks. My logic in that alignment being that the whole Talos issue the Nords are upset about is only a means to an end for the Thalmor, and that end is their wiping the Empire off the face of Tamriel. Logically, Skyrim's independence would cripple the Empire further, and make the only remaining Empire territory besides Cyrodiil (High Rock) nigh impossible for the Empire to make use of in another Thalmor war since it's bordering Hammerfell and Skyrim, both independent after the Stormcloaks boot the Empire from Skyrim.

However, I personally feel the Empire is necessary for maintaining order in Tamriel. I see the civil war in skyrim as but a small battle in the greater picture of potential restructuring of the ruling government. Considering an Empire government promotes peace and order, I imagine a Thalmor rule in Tamriel would be a brutally harsh life for any non mer race. I imagine the Windhelm segregation would become commonplace, and the government would only act in the best interests of elvenkind.

Oh yes, I also don't care for the Stormcloaks simply because Ulfric strikes me as of a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum when he doesn't get his way. I could list numerous examples of what led me to feel this way, but without spoiling anything, all I will say is that I think he's every bit as much a smug racist as the Thalmor are.

 

[imaginepageant]

I'm not exactly certain when things changed along the lines of history, but the source for Talos creating a school to teach the Thu'um in Markarth was published in 2E 864, a whole 667 years prior to the events of Skyrim.

Excellent point! I guess anything could have happened in those centuries to reinstate Jurgen Windcaller's philosophy of peace. I wish there was more written on the history and evolution of the Way of the Voice; it's so fascinating.

I could imagine Ulfric feeling justified in using the Voice against Torygg, though, regardless of the current attitude towards it, since Tiber Septim himself believed it was an acceptable in warfare, and since Ulfric reveres Talos.

A deeper point that I'd like to mention though is that Ulfric was Torygg's idol.

Oh. That makes me sad.

 

[Vraek]

I met some stormcloack characters early game on my first character (redgard), decided that they weren't worth it, and went with imperials instead, my favourite questline in the game by far. On my latest character (high elf) I thought I'd do the stormcloak line, to see if it was any better, did the first mission, but lost it when someone said "pointy-eared bastards"...

Gonna do imperial again on my Dunmer assassin character, even though I've already killed the emperor :s

 

[The Angry Nord]

However Angry Nord, despite the victory at the Battle of the Red Ring, Titus Mede II settled on exactly the same proposition the Thalmor gave prior to the Great War. Despite the majority of the forces of the Dominion in Cyrodiil being defeated in that battle, the Emperor still allowed the Thalmor to outlaw the worship of Talos. However, Titus Mede II was assassinated by the DB in 4E 201.. I haven't done the DB quest myself, but by a political standpoint, there could easily be a new emperor with an iron fist to finish the war. With Skyrim still being a part of the Empire and a new leader, the remainder of the Empire could easily crush the elves.

Yeah, true. Titus Mede II could have proposed different terms. By the way, when you say that Titus Mede II was killed by DB, who exactly is that?

 

[bulbaquil]

Very much this. I for one was pretty struck by the fact that despite the decree etc, there are Talos statues/altars in many cities that seem undisturbed no matter what side is "in charge" there, per se. For example, there's the rather prominent one in Whiterun (a city governed by a somewhat more pro-Empire Jarl who privately worships Talos). Yeah, Heimskr is obnoxious and not everyone in town appreciates him, but he seems pretty free to give his sermons. The one in Riften, even after the Civil War ends favoring the Empire, remains in place.

I'm certainly not saying that religious persecution doesn't happen and hasn't happened. There are corpses to prove it. But from what I can see, I really consider the same points you made above.

I'm guessing that's partly for programming reasons and simplification of the cities, particularly in places like Markarth and Riften which can change hands twice (Riften starts out Stormcloak, can be given to the Imperials in "Season Unending", and then retaken for the Stormcloaks in the civil war; Markarth just flip-flop Stormcloak and Imperial). It's why the Emperor still for some reason comes to Skyrim in the DB questline even if done after a Stormcloak victory, and it's why Brunwulf seems to have trouble arresting Rolff Stone-Fist.

Despite the majority of the forces of the Dominion in Cyrodiil being defeated in that battle, the Emperor still allowed the Thalmor to outlaw the worship of Talos. However, Titus Mede II was assassinated by the DB in 4E 201.. I haven't done the DB quest myself, but by a political standpoint, there could easily be a new emperor with an iron fist to finish the war. With Skyrim still being a part of the Empire and a new leader, the remainder of the Empire could easily crush the elves.

And who's to say the Dovahkiin couldn't be said replacement emperor (other than the fact that the game hasn't programmed that in)? I now have a roleplaying idea involving the Dark Brotherhood questline done in conjunction with the main quest, followed by the Imperial questline.

 

[Docta Corvina]

I'm guessing that's partly for programming reasons and simplification of the cities, particularly in places like Markarth and Riften which can change hands twice (Riften starts out Stormcloak, can be given to the Imperials in "Season Unending", and then retaken for the Stormcloaks in the civil war; Markarth just flip-flop Stormcloak and Imperial). It's why the Emperor still for some reason comes to Skyrim in the DB questline even if done after a Stormcloak victory, and it's why Brunwulf seems to have trouble arresting Rolff Stone-Fist.

I would certainly agree that there's likely a programming element to it. There are so many algorithms in this game, it's insane. Genius, but marvelously insane. I still find it interesting though, as you said, that the religious persecution did not seem as pervasive as it was purported to be. I think it could have been made so, if that was desired by the developers. Perhaps it is intended to be part of the openness of the story and who/what you decide to support. The Skyrim experience is wholly our own as players, and that's something I'll always love about it most.

 

[Sweet Rolls]

This is a long post but I've nothing better to do on a snowy day​

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(TAKEN FROM THE BOOK, "THE GREAT WAR" WHICH I FOUND IN A HOUSE I WAS ROBBING) Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire. In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire.

This statement taken from the UESP page on the Great War book written by some guy and this is what makes me support the idea of independence for Skyrim. This quote basically says Hammerfell refused to accept the Empire handing over part of their country to keep the Thalmor happy. So they ditched the betrayers and reclaimed their land, proving that the Empire had the strength to destroy the Thalmor if it pulled through and continued to fight together.​

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What's to say Skyrim couldn't do the same if the Thalmor came knocking? Skyrim deserves to be free of an Empire that has its heads up the Thalmor's arses, because it's too weak to fight. It's like holding a dog on a leash for the owners protection when it wants to run around a field. Sending the Legion over to Skyrim to crush a rebellion for freedom, just so the Empire can still be called an empire, is cowardly. If Titus Mede II had held his nerve against the Thalmor, not sold out portions of Hammerfell, perhaps the Empire would be powerful and the Thalmor would be gone from the face of Tamriel. It's the Empire's fault it is weak and is forced to bow to the Thalmor to keep peace.​

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On to the subject of Ulfric Stormcloak. Was killing High King Torygg really necessary? No, it was stupid and it's Ulfric's actions that started the Civil War in the first place. The Solitude court wizard Sybille Stentor said that Torygg actually really respected Ulfric and his desire for independence when Torygg became High King. She also said that if Ulfric had asked Torygg to stand up and declare independence, he might have done it. Ulfric isn't a rightful leader in my eyes. A true Nord, who accepts foreigners in Skyrim and doesn't force beastfolk to live outside cities, and can establish stability and peace and make non reckless decisions, should be High King. Brunwulf Free-Winter fits this description but I doubt he'd want to be High King.​

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What if Hammerfell and Skyrim (maybe even Black Marsh and Morrowind if something provoked them) united as two friends, not as an empire or anything but two independent nations working together, and crushed the Thalmor together? Redguards and Nords are the best warriors in Tamriel, together they could destroy the Aldmeri Dominion and bring true peace to Tamriel and their respective countries. What would happen to the Empire after that, I don't know.​

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Basically I'm saying in all this that Hammerfell seceded from the Empire, Skyrim should be allowed to also. It would've been a hundred times easier if Ulfric hadn't been an idiot and killed Torygg and started a civil war.​

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Therefore I am neutral but very slightly pro-Stormcloak.​

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I can see another Great War of some description coming up, perhaps in a Skyrim DLC or the next TES game. God that would be so cool. ​

 

[bulbaquil]

Agreed. Brunwulf is very classy, and my Stormcloak-aligned Dragonborns would do everything in their power to ensure that he becomes Jarl of Windhelm after Ulfric "officially" becomes high king.

 

[Adam Warlock]

Despite being an Altmer , I am at war with the Thalmor and married to a Nord girl so joining the Empire is out of the question . But I also hate Ulfric`s guts with a passion and want to make him my Dead Thrall if Talos permits.

 

[juni0rj0hn]

It always amazes me how these polls always come out to be just about even for either side. What a great conflict.

I wnder if these people take real politics that seriously, this kind of thing really gets people thinking huh? It's amazing how so many people can be so influenced by a simple Dossier on Ulfric that was written by THE EMPIRE, NO DUH XD. Anyways, the stormcloaks are just fighting for their freedom, nothing else, I don't care about what the Thalmor always intended hm to do.

 

[juni0rj0hn]

Maybe it's you that needs the education mate...

If the thamlor can almost crush the entire imperium, how easy could they destory all of skyrim if it goes fully independant of the imperium. If Ulfric wins, it makes sacking all of skyrim so much easier for the thalmor. In the Thalmor dossiers on Ulfric they mention they WANT him to win! As it makes things easier for them. They want him to win but he's still considered an enemy.

Some of you need to read some of the in game literature on poor old Ulfric. Turns out he's not a very nice guy at all.

What you have said sounds like Stormcloak propaganda rubbish to me. Ulfric's brainwashing is even powerful enough to penetrate our forum! Death to that racist Nord pig.

Hey mate, no disrespect, and after all it is a game,but I just want to let you know that that is just a worthless book written by THE THALMOR, NO DUH XD(jk jk)

 

[Minister Of Mayhem]

I'd rather not align myself with either side because they both have things I dislike about them, but I prefer the stormcloaks by far.

 

[CA_Liberal]

I really don't like either side but I really hate the damn Nords so my characters usually join the Legion. Ulfuric bugs the hell out of me too.

 

[imaginepageant]

It's amazing how so many people can be so influenced by a simple Dossier on Ulfric ...

I can't speak for everyone, but when I first read that dossier and learned that Ulfric had been tortured by the Thalmor, my opinion of him changed completely. Knowing what he suffered, both physically and psychologically, at the hands of elves puts his attitude toward them into perspective. It isn't simply blind racism; it's distrust, and resentment, and fear. There's a reason behind it. That doesn't excuse some of the things he's done, but I can understand why he did them.

 

[juni0rj0hn]

I can't speak for everyone, but when I first read that dossier and learned that Ulfric had been tortured by the Thalmor, my opinion of him changed completely. Knowing what he suffered, both physically and psychologically, at the hands of elves puts his attitude toward them into perspective. It isn't simply blind racism; it's distrust, and resentment, and fear. There's a reason behind it. That doesn't excuse some of the things he's done, but I can understand why he did them.

You're right, and when you think about it, the elves have always unreasonably tried to take over the Nords, so for a long time, racism was passed down to every Nord. At the end of the day, the Stormcloaks were just trying to defend their homeland, and they had a right to. I don't really care how racist Ulfric was, wouldn't you be racist toward a Japanese person if you were at war with them, although that doesn't excuse the other un educated Nords of Windhelm on the subject when they blindly abuse all elves, just by example.

 

[imaginepageant]

You're right, and when you think about it, the elves have always unreasonably tried to take over the Nords, so for a long time, racism was passed down to every Nord. At the end of the day, the Stormcloaks were just trying to defend their homeland, and they had a right to. I don't really care how racist Ulfric was, wouldn't you be racist toward a Japanese person if you were at war with them, although that doesn't excuse the other un educated Nords of Windhelm on the subject when they blindly abuse all elves, just by example.

Technically, Tamriel belonged to elves before Ysgramor immigrated from Atmora and took Skyrim for the Nedes. So the true sons of daughters of Skyrim - if you go back far enough - are elves! They were there first.

However, the crux of the Stormcloak rebellion lies with the elves' suppression of Nordic religion, and that is why I personally side with the Stormcloaks. If the Aldmeri Dominion doesn't believe that Talos is truly a god, they don't have to worship him. But they shouldn't force their beliefs onto the Nords, or anyone else, and the White-Gold Concordat does exactly that.

 

[Knatty Dreadnok]

The Imperial Captain is a Redguard. Hadvar is a nord.

The Imperial Captain, IS an Imperial.