Do you eat meat?

[scarey]

Sure, some things could be replaced. But all? Not likely.



I'm not sure what you mean by this. If animals were left to their own devices, I'm wondering if the populations would grow too large due to the fact that humans would not be using them for food. Basically it's a question of whether there are enough natural predators to keep the population down.



^^^ This is another good example of what I was trying to illustrate regarding the cow cartoon, FullmetalHeart20.

The vast majority of farmers would just cull all their animals. They are so domesticated they would be hard pushed to survive 'in the wild' and the land they used to populate would be used to grow crops instead. There wouldn't be anywhere for them to survive, unless nature reserves were developed for them. Even then, with no form of population control they would eventually eat all the available food and starve. Nature is a fine balance. If any part of the food chain becomes too populous it runs out of food and the numbers drop again.

 

[Medea]

1) If we didn't eat animals, the types of animals we eat would quickly overpopulate and starve to death anyway. Farm animals outnumber human beings by a ratio of 65 to 1 in the U.S.

2) If we didn't milk cows, their udders would expand to the point where they would be so uncomfortable they could not move to reach food or water and they would die. Their udders can even rupture. Look it up.

3) If it's wrong to kill animals, should tigers and other top predators stop eating other animals too?

4) Do you wear leather? Do you have leather soles on your shoes? Do you use glue? Wear makeup? The amount of products made from animals is staggering. NO ONE can be positive they aren't using a product that was made from an animal. I realize it's different from a dietary choice, but in a way, we ALL contribute to killing animals, whether we realize it or not.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

1) If we didn't eat animals, the types of animals we eat would quickly overpopulate and starve to death anyway. Farm animals outnumber human beings by a ratio of 65 to 1 in the U.S.

2) If we didn't milk cows, their udders would expand to the point where they would be so uncomfortable they could not move to reach food or water and they would die. Their udders can even rupture. Look it up.

3) If it's wrong to kill animals, should tigers and other top predators stop eating other animals too?

4) Do you wear leather? Do you have leather soles on your shoes? Do you use glue? Wear makeup? The amount of products made from animals is staggering. NO ONE can be positive they aren't using a product that was made from an animal. I realize it's different from a dietary choice, but in a way, we ALL contribute to killing animals, whether we realize it or not.

1. Even if that happens, it would end a cycle of animals being raised in captivity for slaughter. It may be harsh, but it's better than what we give them.
2. I guess you don't realize that cows only lactate during pregnancies? They're impregnated, milked and used until they can't bear it any more. The male calves are often sold for veal.
3. They're pure carnivores, and most omnivores are hard pressed for food. So that's survival. But when it becomes a choice, it changes the dynamic entirely. It isn't 'kill this to live' with a lot of people. It's 'kill this or eat some plants'.
4. I believe we already covered how meat isn't the only problem. I try to avoid buying leather. Thankfully, it's expensive.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

I assume you do not drive, or take any form of transport that uses a fossil-based fuel?

Ignoring the potential for clean energy, that stuff has been under rocks for longer than our civilizations. The reason why we need to worry about running out is because it takes countless millennia to make. The only guilt attached to fossil fuels is environmental.

 

[Medea]

1. Even if that happens, it would end a cycle of animals being raised in captivity for slaughter. It may be harsh, but it's better than what we give them.
2. I guess you don't realize that cows only lactate during pregnancies? They're impregnated, milked and used until they can't bear it any more. The male calves are often sold for veal.
3. They're pure carnivores, and most omnivores are hard pressed for food. So that's survival. But when it becomes a choice, it changes the dynamic entirely. It isn't 'kill this to live' with a lot of people. It's 'kill this or eat some plants'.
4. I believe we already covered how meat isn't the only problem. I try to avoid buying leather. Thankfully, it's expensive.

1) What would we do about all the stray cows and other farm animals running on our roads then? We'd kill them... for nothing. We wouldn't use any of their meat or skin for anything. We'd just kill them... for nothing.

2) Yeah, sure, as a woman I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was just common sense that females lactate during pregnancy, so I didn't feel the need to address that fact.

3) No. We are just much more intelligent than other predators and we created the farm industry. We are biologically adjusted to eat meat because of the fact that our ancestors ate meat. Back then, if you ate a plant, you didn't know whether it was poisonous or not. Meat was safer and we evolved to enjoy the taste of meat because of it. And due to the overpopulation of people, you can't support the populace without the food or farming industry anymore.

4) So is the vegetarian/vegan lifestyle.

I realize that you are fighting for this for a very good reason. I believe in animal rights too. I don't like how they are treated, and raised in captivity for slaughter either. There are free-range farms where the animals are taken care of and I support those types of farms and the organic markets that sell that type of food. But I have to admit I buy my meat from Shop 'N Save, because it's cheaper and I don't have an organic store where I live. Do I feel guilty about it? Sometimes. But I just don't see myself changing my diet because of it.

 

[Lady Redpool the Unlifer]

I didn't want to read all 7 pages of this argument, but after seeing in general where all this was going, thought I'd throw my two sense in.

I'm a type-1 diabetic, means my condition cannot be controlled by dieting and every time I consume carbs I have to stab myself to inject a very expensive substance that will keep me alive. Since carbs are mostly out the window, my sources of energy are rather limited. Protein is the key, and guess what the only reliable source of low carb-high protein food is. Anyone? Anyone? It's meat. Lots and lots of meat. I know it's barely related to the topic, but I had to put in there that there are GOOD reasons to eat meat.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

1) What would we do about all the stray cows and other farm animals running on our roads then? We'd kill them... for nothing. We wouldn't use any of their meat or skin for anything. We'd just kill them... for nothing.

2) Yeah, sure, as a woman I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was just common sense that females lactate during pregnancy, so I didn't feel the need to address that fact.

3) No. We are just much more intelligent than other predators and we created the farm industry. We are biologically adjusted to eat meat because of the fact that our ancestors ate meat. Back then, if you ate a plant, you didn't know whether it was poisonous or not. Meat was safer and we evolved to enjoy the taste of meat because of it. And due to the overpopulation of people, you can't support the populace without the food or farming industry anymore.

4) So is the vegetarian/vegan lifestyle.

I realize that you are fighting for this for a very good reason. I believe in animal rights too. I don't like how they are treated, and raised in captivity for slaughter either. There are free-range farms where the animals are taken care of and I support those types of farms and the organic markets that sell that type of food. But I have to admit I buy my meat from Shop 'N Save, because it's cheaper and I don't have an organic store where I live. Do I feel guilty about it? Sometimes. But I just don't see myself changing my diet because of it.

1. I can admit I don't know what would happen with the livestock. Perhaps there isn't a happy ending for what the agricultural industries have raised, but we don't need to keep it going. Most people can thrive without meat, and those who can't basically don't have a choice. I suppose they could eat what's left and the meat industry would downsize.
2. So you realize that the more milk that is demanded, the more pregnancies are forced on cows, right? They don't even get to stay with their calves. If we didn't put livestock through this, they wouldn't have to worry about their udders. Soy milk is sold in a lot of markets, so why do we do this?
3. What's with the 'we eat meat because our ancestors ate meat because we just know' argument? Our current biology doesn't support us as hunters compared to, say, a large cat. Other primates eat mostly vegan, with the occasional group of termites mixed in. Even a Silverback Gorrilla, which probably could run down and kill a herd animal with its bare hands, doesn't live that way. That seems more reliable than the assumption that we just always at meat.
4. Why is it expensive? Animals are raised, maintained, transported, slaughtered, sterilized and chilled until it's bought. Not to mention the hormone and antibiotic treatments. How are plants more expensive than that?
I do wish you luck with your diabetes RedNeK. Even if you keep with the meat, carbs are yummy. So here's hoping for cheep an painless insulin for you!

 

[nordicowboy]

You know what? I believe it would be best if I simplified my arguments. Here are some of the benefits of eating vegan.
1. We don't need to slaughter, gut and cook an animal. Even if one found this morally acceptable, I'm sure no one wants to deal with disembowled intestines filled with half digested stool.
2. It provides more energy. If energy is always lost in a system, than meat is just an unnecessary step between plant and human. With all of the metabolizing and movement livestock does, we get less out of them than we put in.
3. No cholesterol. We don't have to live with the increased risk of heart attack or clogged arteries.
4. It can taste pretty damn good. There's even a book called The Meat Lovers Meatless Cook Book.
5. It's easier to raise a garden than it is to raise meat. That means access to a personal food source.
If anyone could disprove these points, please do. I hate giving false information. If anyone would like to provide points for eating meat, remember that 'Because it tastes good', and 'It's what we've always done' might not cut it. Decisions based on pleasure and tradition can often be rather...well, just think of all the ways we've hurt each other for those things. They look like bad ideas in hindsight, don't they?

1. If so many people were as squeamish as you think, then jobs for doctors, nurses, surgeons, EMS, firemen, and police officers would be a much tougher role to fill.
2. It takes the body more energy to break down protein, therefore if leaner meats are consumed, the person stands to burn more calories during digestion. This is of course on the premise that a normal portion is eaten, instead of 2 lbs of greasy bacon in one sitting.
3. You may not realize that HDL (High-Density Lipoprotein) is found actually good for you, and is readily found in skinless chicken and fish, which help lower the bad cholesterol.
4. You contradict yourself on this point.
5. Garden (from the beginning)- Mowing, tilling, testing pH levels, adjusting pH levels through addition of lime or sulfur, planting, irrigating, weeding, harvesting. Repeat following a few times a year until the soil loses it's mineral content and becomes useless.
Range fed beef/pork/poultry- have water and grass available. Occasional medical upkeep.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

1. If so many people were as squeamish as you think, then jobs for doctors, nurses, surgeons, EMS, firemen, and police officers would be a much tougher role to fill.
2. It takes the body more energy to break down protein, therefore if leaner meats are consumed, the person stands to burn more calories during digestion. This is of course on the premise that a normal portion is eaten, instead of 2 lbs of greasy bacon in one sitting.
3. You may not realize that HDL (High-Density Lipoprotein) is found actually good for you, and is readily found in skinless chicken and fish, which help lower the bad cholesterol.
4. You contradict yourself on this point.
5. Garden (from the beginning)- Mowing, tilling, testing pH levels, adjusting pH levels through addition of lime or sulfur, planting, irrigating, weeding, harvesting. Repeat following a few times a year until the soil loses it's mineral content and becomes useless.
Range fed beef/pork/poultry- have water and grass available. Occasional medical upkeep.

1. You mean jobs out of necessity that save lives? Yes. Naturally, they are in it for the gore.
2. So meat burns more calories during digestion? That kinda supports the 'less energy efficient' argument. Right?
3. Or, you know, people could cut out meat all together and skip the whole cholesterol problem.
4. What the title means is meatless dishes that fulfill most of the positive aspects of meat, such as protein, heat, and flavor. It is not a contradiction. It's just food even a meat lover would enjoy.
5. Do you really think farming meat isn't a chore? Range meat is one thing, but mass production is the mainstream in America. I'd actually say livestock gets better medical treatment than people, except the antibiotics are only because being force fed corn makes them sick. It also requires refrigeration, sanitation, and feed. Lots and lots of feed. I once saw a feed lot on video, and it looked like a desert of corn. That isn't easy. As for useless soil? If we could bring the Dust Bowl back from the brink, we could keep it from getting that bad in the first place. Crop rotation and plants that release nutrients into the soul make it a non issue.

 

[nordicowboy]

1. You mean jobs out of necessity that save lives? Yes. Naturally, they are in it for the gore.
2. So meat burns more calories during digestion? That kinda supports the 'less energy efficient' argument. Right?
3. Or, you know, people could cut out meat all together and skip the whole cholesterol problem.
4. What the title means is meatless dishes that fulfill most of the positive aspects of meat, such as protein, heat, and flavor. It is not a contradiction. It's just food even a meat lover would enjoy.
5. Do you really think farming meat isn't a chore? Range meat is one thing, but mass production is the mainstream in America. I'd actually say livestock gets better medical treatment than people, except the antibiotics are only because being force fed corn makes them sick. It also requires refrigeration, sanitation, and feed. Lots and lots of feed. I once saw a feed lot on video, and it looked like a desert of corn. That isn't easy. As for useless soil? If we could bring the Dust Bowl back from the brink, we could keep it from getting that bad in the first place. Crop rotation and plants that release nutrients into the soul make it a non issue.

1. So you assume that butchers are in it just for the gore? They might see it as a necessity to get a food product to people's tables.
2. You have to burn calories to lose weight. I could eat oatmeal and tofu and salad all day, but if I don't burn calories, I still get fat.
3. Fun fact: Saturated fats are bad for you (and your cholesterol) and found in......you guessed it.... VEGETABLE/PEANUT/CORN/OLIVE oil. So by your logic, someone could survive on french fries, fried mushrooms, anything fried or cooked in oil as long as it's a vegetable.
4. "4. It can taste pretty damn good. There's even a book called The Meat Lovers Meatless Cook Book."..."If anyone would like to provide points for eating meat, remember that 'Because it tastes good', and 'It's what we've always done' might not cut it." Seems that it only makes sense from your side of the fence.

 

[nordicowboy]

1. You mean jobs out of necessity that save lives? Yes. Naturally, they are in it for the gore.
2. So meat burns more calories during digestion? That kinda supports the 'less energy efficient' argument. Right?
3. Or, you know, people could cut out meat all together and skip the whole cholesterol problem.
4. What the title means is meatless dishes that fulfill most of the positive aspects of meat, such as protein, heat, and flavor. It is not a contradiction. It's just food even a meat lover would enjoy.
5. Do you really think farming meat isn't a chore? Range meat is one thing, but mass production is the mainstream in America. I'd actually say livestock gets better medical treatment than people, except the antibiotics are only because being force fed corn makes them sick. It also requires refrigeration, sanitation, and feed. Lots and lots of feed. I once saw a feed lot on video, and it looked like a desert of corn. That isn't easy. As for useless soil? If we could bring the Dust Bowl back from the brink, we could keep it from getting that bad in the first place. Crop rotation and plants that release nutrients into the soul make it a non issue.

5. You bring up the subject and use a feedlot scenario for meat, but a personal garden in favor of your argument? Funny that you fail to bring up the mass amounts of pesticides and artificial fertilizers used on large farming operations. Instead of getting my information from "a feed lot on video", I was raised on a farm and have enough personal experience to tell you that a 1 acre garden is way more work than 2 dozen head of cattle.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

1. So you assume that butchers are in it just for the gore? They might see it as a necessity to get a food product to people's tables.
2. You have to burn calories to lose weight. I could eat oatmeal and tofu and salad all day, but if I don't burn calories, I still get fat.
3. Fun fact: Saturated fats are bad for you (and your cholesterol) and found in......you guessed it.... VEGETABLE/PEANUT/CORN/OLIVE oil. So by your logic, someone could survive on french fries, fried mushrooms, anything fried or cooked in oil as long as it's a vegetable.
4. "4. It can taste pretty damn good. There's even a book called The Meat Lovers Meatless Cook Book."..."If anyone would like to provide points for eating meat, remember that 'Because it tastes good', and 'It's what we've always done' might not cut it." Seems that it only makes sense from your side of the fence.

1. I never said they were in it for the gore. It doesn't change the nature of their jobs.
2. So these calories you speak of come from meat and not grains? I thought protein was the selling point there.
3. So people can make anything unhealthy. Big surpirse. That doesn't chang the fact that you've gotta mess with that food to put saturated fats in a vegetable. And I was under the impression that olive oil could be quite good for our health.
4. That wasn't what I was doing. People wanna eat meat because it tastes good? There are meals without that stuff that are still fantastic. I was trying to point out how most people probably wouldn't miss meat with the right diet.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

5. You bring up the subject and use a feedlot scenario for meat, but a personal garden in favor of your argument? Funny that you fail to bring up the mass amounts of pesticides and artificial fertilizers used on large farming operations. Instead of getting my information from "a feed lot on video", I was raised on a farm and have enough personal experience to tell you that a 1 acre garden is way more work than 2 dozen head of cattle.

Is that so? Well, who am I to argue. That was still a lot of corn though. They could be feeding people with that stuff.
On that note, is organic produce really so impractical for mass production?

 

[nordicowboy]

Is that so? Well, who am I to argue. That was still a lot of corn though. They could be feeding people with that stuff.
On that note, is organic produce really so impractical for mass production?

Actually, yes. With no soil aid or fertilizers (either organic, which includes animal by-product..or synthetic), many fruits and vegetables would be less likely to thrive the way they do now. You'd be surprised on how many tons of pH balancing agents are put into soil to make sure that specific foods can be grown and how many hundreds of thousands of gallons of Nitrogen are dumped for boosted nutrition. Not to mention the aftermath of producing synthetic chemicals or tearing up a landscape so your plants have the best shot at being harvest-able. True vegans would lose their minds if they looked at the big picture. For every acre of land cleared for their "organic farms", potentially hundreds of animals are killed or displaced. Same thing with housing. Chances are, you're lining the pockets of the people that mowed over dozens of these

just so you can have a nice place to live or even have a place to shop for your organic goodies. For every dollar you give them, most people are looking to expand...therefore further supporting the destruction of the environment. Humans by nature are an omnivorous, invasive, and destructive species. I'm not saying that you have to embrace what we are, just don't try and talk down to those of us that choose to use the resources that we have available, just because you feel differently. The simple fact that we've figured out how to get the most out of an animal through diets and supplements shows that even meat eaters are conscious of getting the most out of an animal and therefore needing fewer of them. And those of us that hunt use even less processed meat.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Actually, that wouldn't surprise me. 7 billion people is a big number as it is. If we're making it a numbers game, then at this rate we'll have the same problem with meat. And even a vegan understands that death is a constant of existence. But there's a difference between carving out a place for oneself, and killing an animal where plants would suffice. You talk about us like a virus, but at the same time praise our resourcefulness of making use of every last thing. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Will it ever be perfect? Probably not. But while many make the most out of the animals they kill, there are those who make a good effort of circumventing this altogether.

 

[nordicowboy]

Actually, that wouldn't surprise me. 7 billion people is a big number as it is. If we're making it a numbers game, then at this rate we'll have the same problem with meat. And even a vegan understands that death is a constant of existence. But there's a difference between carving out a place for oneself, and killing an animal where plants would suffice. You talk about us like a virus, but at the same time praise our resourcefulness of making use of every last thing. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Will it ever be perfect? Probably not. But while many make the most out of the animals they kill, there are those who make a good effort of circumventing this altogether.

I think this thread should have been called "People who eat meat are pieces of pl*ps. Don't bother arguing because I won't acknowledge your valid points or opinions." Just for you, here is a photo of me after blowing a wild turkey's chest apart with a 12 gauge.

After ripping the feathers from it's lifeless corpse, I plunged my knife into his chest cavity, cracking through the sternum yet skillfully missing the internal organs, I then surgically removed his chest meat and stored it in a cooler. Upon returning to my house, I carefully peeled the membrane from the still slightly bloody meat and added tasty marinades. 24 hours later I was searing his flesh over an open flame. And I fl*ffing loved it.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

I think this thread should have been called "People who eat meat are pieces of pl*ps. Don't bother arguing because I won't acknowledge your valid points or opinions." Just for you, here is a photo of me after blowing a wild turkey's chest apart with a 12 gauge.

After ripping the feathers from it's lifeless corpse, I plunged my knife into his chest cavity, cracking through the sternum yet skillfully missing the internal organs, I then surgically removed his chest meat and stored it in a cooler. Upon returning to my house, I carefully peeled the membrane from the still slightly bloody meat and added tasty marinades. 24 hours later I was searing his flesh over an open flame. And I fl*ffing loved it.

I never said that. No matter what I think about the practice of eating meat, it doesn't define someone's morals. It's just the society one was raised in. I'd also like to point out that there are few who are acknowledging the valid points of not eating meat. Instead it's come to posting pictures of burgers and describing killing and cooking a bird in detail. Is there a point to that besides pissing me off?

 

[Doctor Langstrom]

I think this thread should have been called "People who eat meat are pieces of pl*ps. Don't bother arguing because I won't acknowledge your valid points or opinions." Just for you, here is a photo of me after blowing a wild turkey's chest apart with a 12 gauge.

After ripping the feathers from it's lifeless corpse, I plunged my knife into his chest cavity, cracking through the sternum yet skillfully missing the internal organs, I then surgically removed his chest meat and stored it in a cooler. Upon returning to my house, I carefully peeled the membrane from the still slightly bloody meat and added tasty marinades. 24 hours later I was searing his flesh over an open flame. And I fl*ffing loved it.

There's a lot Cowboy and I don't agree on, but when it comes to meat and hunting, we agree 100%.

 

[nordicowboy]

Says quite a bit about you that me hunting and eating meat pisses you off so much. Judging from the past few threads I've seen you in, you get severely butthurt any time someone either doesn't agree with or calls you out on a nonsense post. Also, so many people agree with you? Kindly post the current voting totals.

 

[kyleekay]

I never said that. No matter what I think about the practice of eating meat, it doesn't define someone's morals. It's just the society one was raised in. I'd also like to point out that there are few who are acknowledging the valid points of not eating meat. Instead it's come to posting pictures of burgers and describing killing and cooking a bird in detail. Is there a point to that besides pissing me off?

It's come to people posting pictures and describing hunting because your stance went from "I am open to productive conversation" to "people who eat meat need to give me a damn good reason because I think it's bad, and all of your reasons for eating meat suck". People will only respond to you civilly and productively if you give them the same courtesy, FullmetalHeart20.

As for this: "there are few who are acknowledging the valid points of not eating meat", why should we have to acknowledge them if you're not acknowledging our points FOR eating meat?

As I mentioned earlier FullmetalHeart20, I like participating in your controversial topics. I think they are interesting and, most of the time, thought provoking. However you need a thicker skin and the ability to have a somewhat unbiased debate if you are going to continue posting these threads.

I have nothing against you at all and I've enjoyed our chats, so please don't take this post as me personally attacking you.