Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

Not so fast. The reason the Provinces aren't working together has little to do with the Thalmor. It's the Empire making the poor choices and instead of dealing with these issues, the Empire has been "releasing" provinces like a little child who can't get his way.

Provinces don't work together, they only work together when Imperial authority is high. Take a look at what Skyrim did the last time Imperial authority was low, they took it upon themselves to invade Hammerfell and High Rock, stealing many miles of land which caused problems for many years.

Hell look at during the Oblivion Crisis, the Nords were "Assaulting house Redoran of Morrowind"

Releasing provinces like a little child? Provinces being plural. So which provinces did the Empire throw away like a little child?

Valenwood? In 4E 29, the government of Valenwood was overthrown by Thalmor collaborators and a union with Alinor proclaimed. It appears that Thalmor agents had formed close ties to certain Bosmeri factions even before the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire and its Bosmer allies, caught completely off guard, were quickly defeated by the much-better prepared Altmer forces that invaded Valenwood on the heels of the coup.

Or was it Hammerfell we're talking about? Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty.

Yeah, the Thalmor are causing problems but in life at some point you have to start taking responsibility yourself for your failures and realize that a larger part of the problem is how you "react" to your problems.

And this is *exactly* why the Thalmor came before Titus Mede II before the Great War and asked him in a manner of speaking, to "step down" and start accepting Dominion authority.

While I still prefer the Empire over Ulfric's nonsense, I have no doubt if the Empire continues on it's present course it will fall from within. Again ~ the Imperials on here pretend like they're living in the 3rd ERA. Empire's history is fine but you guys got problems with your Imperialism.

The Empire's current course is war with the Aldmeri Dominion. As a Thalmor supporter you tend to be against everything the Thalmor do, or you're one moment supporting the Empire and the next the Stormcloaks.

Ulfric is a Thalmor asset, his usefulness is the fact he's weakening the Empire by drawing in resources and wasting soldiers on both sides.

"Skyrim is weakened, the Empire is weakened. Who else gains from that but the Thalmor?" - Delphine

 

[NENALATA]

NENALATA said: ↑

Not so fast. The reason the Provinces aren't working together has little to do with the Thalmor. It's the Empire making the poor choices and instead of dealing with these issues, the Empire has been "releasing" provinces like a little child who can't get his way.​

Provinces don't work together, they only work together when Imperial authority is high. Take a look at what Skyrim did the last time Imperial authority was low, they took it upon themselves to invade Hammerfell and High Rock, stealing many miles of land which caused problems for many years.

Hell look at during the Oblivion Crisis, the Nords were "Assaulting house Redoran of Morrowind"

Releasing provinces like a little child? Provinces being plural. So which provinces did the Empire throw away like a little child?

Valenwood? In 4E 29, the government of Valenwood was overthrown by Thalmor collaborators and a union with Alinor proclaimed. It appears that Thalmor agents had formed close ties to certain Bosmeri factions even before the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire and its Bosmer allies, caught completely off guard, were quickly defeated by the much-better prepared Altmer forces that invaded Valenwood on the heels of the coup.

Or was it Hammerfell we're talking about? Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty.

Any Province, but esp Hammerfell and Morrowind. Again, any Province would do. The *caugh* Emperor of Tamriel has no real meaning unless you have someone who knows how to act like an Emperor on the throne. Empire has 2.5 of 9 Provinces left. Two of them, the Emperor just quit playing the game and renounced them as Provinces. Rather than resolve each or even half of these Provinces like a real Emperor would, the Mede's took their ball and went home. No solutions, no resolution, just left their problems for someone else to maybe solve if the Empire is lucky. So if you think those are good results, worthy of the Septims, who knew how to lead an Empire, then have at it.

NENALATA said: ↑

Yeah, the Thalmor are causing problems but in life at some point you have to start taking responsibility yourself for your failures and realize that a larger part of the problem is how you "react" to your problems.

And this is *exactly* why the Thalmor came before Titus Mede II before the Great War and asked him in a manner of speaking, to "step down" and start accepting Dominion authority.

While I still prefer the Empire over Ulfric's nonsense, I have no doubt if the Empire continues on it's present course it will fall from within. Again ~ the Imperials on here pretend like they're living in the 3rd ERA. Empire's history is fine but you guys got problems with your Imperialism.​

The Empire's current course is war with the Aldmeri Dominion. As a Thalmor supporter you tend to be against everything the Thalmor do, or you're one moment supporting the Empire and the next the Stormcloaks.

Ulfric is a Thalmor asset, his usefulness is the fact he's weakening the Empire by drawing in resources and wasting soldiers on both sides.

"Skyrim is weakened, the Empire is weakened. Who else gains from that but the Thalmor?" - Delphine

Yeah. Hahaha Never did I ever say I was against everything the Thalmor do. And, never did I say I was against everything the Empire does. You're making a very gross generalization here. And I've never supported the Stormcloaks on this forum. Although when I first started playing Skyrim I did, for a short time.

I have no clue what you are talking about. Why don't you actually try and understand my perspective before posting things about me which aren't accurate? It's like the news channels, when they have nothing to report they start making pl*ps up.

 

[NENALATA]

NENALATA said: ↑

I was wrong about one thing. Talos was NOT the standard that other Emperors are to be judged by, rather, I think Uriel VII (Septim) and/or Martin would have set a better example. Uriel VII didn't order someone else to *murder* his unborn children ~ He was a responsible father and hid the unwanted ones away (or just Martin). Having someone who has taken an oath and sworn to heal people murder your kids for you ~ for any reason ~ is a sick individual. Politics are irrelevant, if your politics are at the center of your moral compass, you are a shrub of a person. He could have sent him somewhere else to live and at least live a normal life. Honestly, I lost any remaining respect I had for Talos once I found this out.​

​

And yes, he did kick her to the curb. Talos had his fun ~ F.F.F. Typical man. No amount of Gold, Silver or finery, nor the respect of persons can buy back your self-respect or your soul.​

You're wrong about any Emperor being the standard. Each Emperor is different, the Empire under every new Emperor changes. It is never the same or is one Emperor/Empress the same as another.

You lost any remaining respect for Talos for having the child that could threaten his Empire killed before it was born. I take it you're against abortion when you go on about murder your kids.

But you support the Thalmor who slaughter those without pure bloodlines.

Then the first of many pogroms descended on Summerset Isle. They slaughtered any who were not "of the blood of the Aldmer". A fine excuse to purge the dissidents, as well - the Thalmor have never been ones to waste such an opportunity.
"Elemental magic wielded, Elemental thoughts displayed. Havoc wrought as if for sport, Efforts to impress fall short. I'll merely use a blade. Seeking study, wanting learning, Recklessly aroused my rage! My pupil you would be, or more? Presume not of Shalidor, You feeble, foolish mage! Quickly dispatched, Worthless weakling, Though this tome I gladly claim. A diamond in the rough, I find, Shining gem from feeble mind. Now die, and curse my name!"

Yes, I'm against most abortions. There is time and place, but for the most part I am against abortion. Furthermore ~ With all your insight how conveniently you left out the Bretons. Oh yes. Men and Elves gettin' down with the sickness. Certainly they're bloodlines aren't very pure now are they?

As far as the other end, yes some Altmer did this according to tradition. They wanted to protect their bloodlines, but it's the point that counts. At least they allowed their children to be born. Talos killed his in the womb ~ He didn't care what it was.

No one really seems to understand the Altmer. The infanticide was primarily part of the cultural transition from Aldmeri to Altmer, which happened long ago. Altmer seek perfection in their lives and wanted their race to look and be a certain way. So, naturally they would want this same thing for their children. The infants weren't discarded over 'petty political power struggles' or for the families 'political gain'. It was done to preserve/perfect the culture for the benefit of their society.

It's very difficult for the Altmer to produce children in the first place... I'm sure this was something they wouldn't do unless they really felt it necessary. If an Altmer woman has a child, she might never have another one, regardless of life cycles.

As for the children who remained, by all indications they were very well taken care of and grew up to be stronger and wiser than the children of man, who were born in bulk for the most part without any thought or plan for them.

 

[Jasonisdead]

I joined with the imperials because, I enjoy Solitude more than Windhelm, but also because I don't like Ulfric. I don't like the elves anymore than the Stormcloks do but Ulfric doesn't care about the elves, he only wants to be High King of Skyrim

 

[DrunkenMage]

Any Province, but esp Hammerfell and Morrowind. Again, any Province would do. The *caugh* Emperor of Tamriel has no real meaning unless you have someone who knows how to act like an Emperor on the throne. Empire has 2.5 of 9 Provinces left. Two of them, the Emperor just quit playing the game and renounced them as Provinces. Rather than resolve each or even half of these Provinces like a real Emperor would, the Mede's took their ball and went home. No solutions, no resolution, just left their problems for someone else to maybe solve if the Empire is lucky. So if you think those are good results, worthy of the Septims, who knew how to lead an Empire, then have at it.

Morrowind was released after the Oblivion Crisis by Ocato, remember the Altmer ruler you were praising not too many posts before?

The Mede's were given a weakened Empire after the Oblivion Crisis only seventeen years before and the chaos of the Stormcrown Interregnum waging the last seven years.

Given with what they had to work with and what the Septim's had to work with. The Mede's took an Empire that was on it's knees and about to collapse to prosperity for many years. The Septim's you always love to praise who had their great dynasty on the shoulder's of Tiber Septim's success.

Though their dynasty was full of wars, insurrections, rebellions, debts, poor managements. Even the Elder Council was dismissed and those with enough coin could buy Elder Council seats to be rulers of the Empire, then the Emperor encouraged his vassals, the Kings of Tamriel to do the same so courts were replaced with those who were simply rich not those who would serve as a wise adviser to their King.

Yeah. Hahaha Never did I ever say I was against everything the Thalmor do. And, never did I say I was against everything the Empire does. You're making a very gross generalization here. And I've never supported the Stormcloaks on this forum. Although when I first started playing Skyrim I did, for a short time.

I have no clue what you are talking about. Why don't you actually try and understand my perspective before posting things about me which aren't accurate? It's like the news channels, when they have nothing to report they start making pl*ps up.

You're against a majority of what the Thalmor do. Having claimed you do not agree with what the Thalmor are doing on several occasions.

Yes, I'm against most abortions. There is time and place, but for the most part I am against abortion. Furthermore ~ With all your insight how conveniently you left out the Bretons. Oh yes. Men and Elves gettin' down with the sickness. Certainly they're bloodlines aren't very pure now are they?

I left out the Bretons? Left them out of what? Bretons don't slaughter their own children under the pretense of bloodlines.

As far as the other end, yes some Altmer did this according to tradition. They wanted to protect their bloodlines, but it's the point that counts. At least they allowed their children to be born. Talos killed his in the womb ~ He didn't care what it was.

The Thalmor slaughtered those without pure bloodlines during the Fourth Era.

Better the child to be born then slaughter it aye? On the subject of killing children, Uriel VII also had the other of his bastards assassinated by Imperial Guards.

No one really seems to understand the Altmer. The infanticide was primarily part of the cultural transition from Aldmeri to Altmer, which happened long ago. Altmer seek perfection in their lives and wanted their race to look and be a certain way. So, naturally they would want this same thing for their children. The infants weren't discarded over 'petty political power struggles' or for the families 'political gain'. It was done to preserve/perfect the culture for the benefit of their society.

It's very difficult for the Altmer to produce children in the first place... I'm sure this was something they wouldn't do unless they really felt it necessary. If an Altmer woman has a child, she might never have another one, regardless of life cycles.

As for the children who remained, by all indications they were very well taken care of and grew up to be stronger and wiser than the children of man, who were born in bulk for the most part without any thought or plan for them.

So you have gone from losing all respect for a character over abortions, to defending the act of slaughtering children not of pure blood?

The Altmer healer who says elves produce few children was trying to help Barenziah by making it out that it had far more concerns than the normal. Also Barenziah was a Dark Elf, the reproductive cycle of the Altmer is unknown. Also since they kill nine out of ten Altmer children to keep pure bloodlines, then the Altmer race would have been extinct if they could only produce so few children. So if one in ten Altmer children live, and thousands of Altmer died during the Great War so that must mean the entire Altmer population must be within Skyrim.

So every Thalmor Agent killed in Skyrim means a generation nearly gets wiped out. Damn they must be lacking reinforcements from all the "pure bloods" I have killed.

 

[Mighty Pecan Pie]

I have no clue what you are talking about. Why don't you actually try and understand my perspective before posting things about me which aren't accurate? It's like the news channels, when they have nothing to report they start making pl*ps up.

Because that is hard to do. Imperial view is everything to some.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I have no clue what you are talking about. Why don't you actually try and understand my perspective before posting things about me which aren't accurate? It's like the news channels, when they have nothing to report they start making pl*ps up.

Deleting and editing posts anytime you change sides doesn't mean I am making things up. On several occasions, which many in this thread have seen, you have switched sides. Going on about defending the Empire on another forums and saying how the Mods there were all Stormcloaks or some other crap.

So if you want to continue a delusion and attempt to try make it out that I am making statements about you that are wrong... perhaps you forgot a PM you sent me?

"Don't hand me a mug of sheep's piss and call it Colovian Brandy" - Tullius

 

[Anouck]

I have no clue what you are talking about. Why don't you actually try and understand my perspective before posting things about me which aren't accurate? It's like the news channels, when they have nothing to report they start making pl*ps up.

Because that is hard to do. Imperial view is everything to some.

Well, regardless of my views on the subject I can assure you the stuff I read so far isn't "made up".

Everything can be backed up by lore..

 

[DrunkenMage]

Right...

You were given levels of hate by Dagmar and I? And yet you're the only one who is giving out insults. When you have calmed down over your rantings, and have some dignity returned. You can have a casual reply.

All your post says is that, you can't handle debate. The point of a debate is to give an argument, counter argument and so on.

If you can't handle a counter argument and then go on about how Anouck, Dagmar & I are attacking you on a personal level, then bitch, please. Go back to a hello kitty forum.

Your arguments are generally doubtful at best, full of holes and things that are contradicted by lore. Most evidence you provided are not from in game, but in your head. Hence why the term 'Head-Canon' is used by some in this thread.

We get together like a gang of wolves? You're totally right, Anouck's post was violent and savage. She must be the Alpha female of the pack.

 

[Mighty Pecan Pie]

I have no clue what you are talking about. Why don't you actually try and understand my perspective before posting things about me which aren't accurate? It's like the news channels, when they have nothing to report they start making pl*ps up.

Because that is hard to do. Imperial view is everything to some.

Well, regardless of my views on the subject I can assure you the stuff I read so far isn't "made up".

Everything can be backed up by lore..

Ofcourse it can. You have lore. And different views on it. Imperial view and Stormcloak view. Perhaps also Thalmor view. There are always more sides to a story than just one.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Ofcourse it can. You have lore. And different views on it. Imperial view and Stormcloak view. Perhaps also Thalmor view. There are always more sides to a story than just one.

But the view of it didn't matter too much in the discussion which took the last few pages of this thread.
If somewhere an Imperial soldier dies, a Thalmor may cheer, a Stormcloak too, some Imperial may weep. But the soldier is dead, that's a fact, a constant. (JUST AN EXAMPLE. DO NOT TOUCH OR USE AS OIL TO FUEL A HEATED DISCUSSION, THANKS!)

I'd make a better example based on the 'sides' the users have taken, but that would end badly.
I'mma just hope people get what I'm on about.

 

[NENALATA]

DrunkenMage


Annouck's post? Uhhh I don't think you understand where I'm coming from. I have no idea who she is and have never debated this with her before. I was talking about you, bro. You missed alot of the meaning in what I posted, but that's ok. Most people do.

Your arguments are generally doubtful at best, full of holes and things that are contradicted by lore. Most evidence you provided are not from in game, but in your head. Hence why the term 'Head-Canon' is used by some in this thread.

FALSE. This is an biased opinion from your head. I provided sources early on which backed up every point presented. You're just mad because neither yourself or Dagmar could disprove them. Therefore, the contradiction is false.

I wouldn't say I couldn't handle the debate. 150 posts easily were contributed to this forum alone. With several people along the way complementing me on having the balls to defend the Thalmor to the extent that I have.

And that fact remains ~ The Imperials on here were NEVER able to defeat my argument(s). That's why you guys started resorting to more and more personal attacks, which is why I posted what I did after I saw what was on here yesterday evening.

And that's really all there is to it. I could keep going but as I said it would just be ignored. Look, I respect the Imperial position on here. Certainly don't agree with it anymore. Doesn't matter to me what you guys think about the Thalmor's perspective because your Emperor already agreed his Empire should follow it.

So all this work in trying to put a wall up against the Thalmor's perspective is a waste because the Empire has already begun swinging around to the Thalmor's perspective by banning Talos and allowing the Thalmor to make "corrections" within it's culture.

That is why the Empire can never win under the Mede's or the WGC. Their only way out is change, but not necessarily secession change.

I do appreciate the opportunity to visit this forum and have this discussion with you guys. Just please don't try and shoulder this on me because a few of you don't like the fact that someone got on here and actually did a very good job of defending the Thalmor. If you're unable to "handle" the concept that the Thalmor may actually be in the right ~ That's not my fault.

And the Thalmor do have a perspective, you cannot just say it's about Imperials and Stormcloaks. At some point, you have to acknowledge the Thalmor. If anything, Skyrim has shown us that things aren't always black and white... and, that in Skyrim there are no Disney cookie-cutter heros and villains.

So, if you have something else terribly important to say to me, then please pm. Otherwise, let's try and drop it at here so the other cats can continue the discussion. Thank you!

​

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For best results: Put on Rose Colored 3D Glasses, replace "of the world" with "of Tamriel"​

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ALL HAIL THE ALDMERI DOMINION​

ALL HAIL THE MADGOD​

MORGAN FREEMAN​

 

[DrunkenMage]

Annouck's post? Uhhh I don't think you understand where I'm coming from. I have no idea who she is and have never debated this with her before. I was talking about you, bro. You missed alot of the meaning in what I posted, but that's ok. Most people do.

- Admins ~ I do not mean to break any rules here, however since DunkenMage and "Annouck?" decided to get personal about this, it's only fair I be realz wit them.

I wouldn't say I couldn't handle the debate. 150 posts easily were contributed to this forum alone. With several people along the way complementing me on having the balls to defend the Thalmor to the extent that I have.

And that fact remains ~ The Imperials on here were NEVER able to defeat my argument(s). That's why you guys started resorting to more and more personal attacks, which is why I posted what I did after I saw what was on here yesterday evening.

Right, shall we take a look at what a standard argument from you is?

Your argument.

All AVAILABLE soldiers were thrown into battle at Red Ring. Not the entire Thalmor army.

What lore tells us.

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all.

And that's really all there is to it. I could keep going but as I said it would just be ignored. Look, I respect the Imperial position on here. Certainly don't agree with it anymore. Doesn't matter to me what you guys think about the Thalmor's perspective because your Emperor already agreed his Empire should follow it.

I do appreciate the opportunity to visit this forum and have this discussion with you guys. Just please don't try and shoulder this on me because a few of you don't like the fact that someone got on here and actually did a very good job of defending the Thalmor. If you're unable to "handle" the concept that the Thalmor may actually be in the right ~ That's not my fault.

And the Thalmor do have a perspective, you cannot just say it's about Imperials and Stormcloaks. At some point, you have to acknowledge the Thalmor. If anything, Skyrim has shown us that things aren't always black and white... and, that in Skyrim there are no Disney cookie-cutter heros and villains.

So, if you have something else terribly important to say to me, then please pm. Otherwise, let's try and drop it at here so the other cats can continue the discussion. Thank you!

I couldn't care less about what faction anyone on this thread supports. Stormcloak, Imperial or Thalmor, I will correct any mistakes I come across. When posting I will add a stronger argument in defense of the Imperials because that is the group I support in this thread, have been for a long time.

I have 'handled' your persistence quite well. You're not the first who has had a rant over debating with me. I have heard it all before, that I don't listen, that I don't provide lore, that I ignore everything given. I read the argument, post a counter argument, you're not the first to have a big post in this thread about the so called evil Imperial supporters here.

You're just another one of those many failed contenders who have been in this thread, just about every Imperial supporter who has taken part in this thread and debated with someone, the other person will go on about how they are a bastard, or that they're a bitch.

You want to make a big post about not liking me? Get in line and pick a number, there are many others in front of you.

 

[Anouck]

"Annouck?"

Annouck's post?

I know this has nothing to do with the Imperial/Stormcloak debate, but I just can't control myself.

It's Anouck, with one -n

however since DunkenMage and "Annouck?" decided to get personal about this, it's only fair I be realz wit them.

Let's take a look at my post, shall we?

Well, regardless of my views on the subject I can assure you the stuff I read so far isn't "made up".

Everything can be backed up by lore..

Yeah. I definitely see how I got personal. I said that the arguments used so far were accurate and correct. Since when is disagreeing something personal?

- DrunkenMage, you're a bastard. So is Dagmar.

Now THIS, my kind friend, is something personal. Let's stay civilized and debate like grown ups. Use arguments and facts to prove your point, not a personal attack.

 

[AS88]

I've just read the last page or so of this thread.

I can understand why people get frustrated when others don't share their views, but please let's keep personal arguments and off-topic ranting to a minimum. Yes, this thread is mostly dominated by people who support the Empire, and yes, some people could perhaps be a little more sensitive rather than shooting down people new to the discussion.

The thing is guys, debate isn't something that you have to agree on. It's okay to agree to disagree with someone once you've both put forward your points and debated over them. So many times I have seen people get personal because they are beginning to struggle, automatically discrediting their arguments and making it harder for people to take them seriously. It's not a big deal if your arguments are invalidated by somebody else, hopefully it'll encourage you to delve deeper into the lore of this incredible series and give you motivation to use or improve your research and analytical skills, and improve your ability to see two sides to a story and using that to debate and prove your theories more effectively next time.

I don't need to tell the majority of you this, and I'm not meaning to patronise anyone here. Just respect each other and have fun.

 

[NENALATA]

AS88

Yeah you're right. And really it never should have come to this. I think all of us kinda got off topic and allowed things to slide down hill. And you know, I'm defending the Thalmor here and well, that automatically puts me at odds with pretty much everybody! Although that was never the intention. I dunno... I guess to me, ideas exist in a vacuum and none of them are really good or bad, they're just ideas. It's what people do with them which makes them good or bad.

Anouck

Now THIS, my kind friend, is something personal. Let's stay civilized and debate like grown ups. Use arguments and facts to prove your point, not a personal attack.

This is something that should have been posted a very long time ago, where were you then? Aside from my response to DrunkenMage's personal attacks, I have never resorted to 'personal attacks' myself. Which really, that was not an attack and more of a response to DrunkenMage using personal attacks on me first.

Even you have to admit, the things he posted BEFORE mine, were things that should have been discussed over a PM. NOT posted for everyone to see and were most def not appropriate for the scope of this discussion. Yes, I was/am mad about that. I really didn't need to post anything, by him doing that, that showed his character right there and I would expect nothing less from "Dagmar's Padawan".

I respect what you said, however I also felt you should have included him on that as well. The very thing(s) you guys are accusing me of has been done against me NUMEROUS times on here. But like AS88 said, it is what it is.

And furthermore, Anouck, DrunkenMage called me out about the posts, and this and that. That's why I didn't understand why you had to get involved. If it's between me and him then that's how it should. He doesn't need you to defend him and if you're going to try and be the "Voice of Reason", then you need to not favor one side over the other.


@Everyone

This is my argument:

I stand by what I said and there's really no way to disprove the fact that the Thalmor weren't all chased out of Cyrodil immediately following Red Ring. Or that the new border with the Dominion isn't now at the Imperial city. The treaty of Stros M'Kai dictated a withdrawal of all Dominion troops but not the WGC. Least as far as I can tell. My interpretation is not far-fetched, as it does not explicitly say that the treaty required the Thlamor to leave or that Cyrodil got it's Southern cities back. My interpretation is that the primary army was destroyed and then the Emperor waited a month to make sure Naarifin couldn't escape when the treaty was signed. Says nothing about the southern cities being liberated or going back to the Empire.

I mean, by these Imperials very standards if it doesn't say something explicitly in Lore then you don't waste another thought ~ you just auto dismiss it. Well, it doesn't say they didn't either, just that the WGC was signed at the end of that Battle and terms were similar to the WGC. Which said nothing about Cyrodil, so, if it said nothing about Cyrodil and the Thalmor were still holding those cities at the end of the war... then there's no reason whatsoever to compel the Thalmor to just turn over the cities in Cyrodil they controlled. If anything, the fact that the Imperial army was so badly weakened and that Titus Mede II surrendered so quickly tells me the Emperor knew he would lose a war of attrition and didn't have the forces to Siege the (4) cities the Thalmor still held even after Red Ring (Anvil, Skingrad, Bravil, Leyawin). Speaking of which, it also never says much about Chorrol(for all we know they could be a neutral state), only that the Imperials gathered near there.

Cicero's journal also talks about how the Listener? I think... was killed by fire balls in the tomb of the night mother and that cities in Cyrodil were crumbling due to violence. Could very well be the Empire is not longer in control of Bravil and those were Thalmor Mages invading the tomb.

And this is not just me talking, I was somewhere on the internet the other day and saw a map which shows the very same thing I'm talking about. Anyways, I suppose I've hemmed it hard enough. DrunkenMage, AS88, Anouck and now I have had my say.

Now if you'll please excuse me, I am needed elsewhere and my work is done for now.​

BEHOLD THE FUTURE! BEHOLD THE THALMOR!!!​

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ALL HAIL THE ALDMERI DOMINION​

ALL HAIL THE MADGOD​

MORGAN FREEMAN​

 

[Dradin]

Man... I never had the stomach to check out this thread. Finally decided that I will take a look at it and, geez. The Empire zealots do know they support an oppressive government founded upon blood and tyranny with decadence sprinkled in there, right?
As for the Stormcloaks, Talos is virtually Shor. All you lore-hounds know what that means. But by all means, just ask if you need me to spell it out for you.

I would be happy to have a civil debate with someone, but I will not stick around to hear a "mug of sheep's piss"

 

[DrunkenMage]

Man... I never had the stomach to check out this thread. Finally decided that I will take a look at it and, geez. The Empire zealots do know they support an oppressive government founded upon blood and tyranny with decadence sprinkled in there, right?
As for the Stormcloaks, Talos is virtually Shor. All you lore-hounds know what that means. But by all means, just ask if you need me to spell it out for you.

I would be happy to have a civil debate with someone, but I will not stick around to hear a "mug of sheep's piss"

This thread has seen worse, it happens all the time. Just ask any Imperial supporter on these forums, they've all had a post dedicated to insults about them.

Interesting outlook. Though out of the two current factions, Empire or Stormcloaks, Windhelm is the only city in Skyrim and all the provinces of the Empire which racial segregation is law and a single race is banished from city walls forced to sleep under one roof on the docks.

You also have slavery in Markarth over a native population after Stormcloak take control over there. That "the people of the Reach should be in chains mining silver where they belong"

It is easy to point out the Talos ban as why Imperials are so oppressive, except the ban was hardly enforced and many Nords didn't care about it. Though generally what is overlooked is the fact the Nords themselves also forbid the people of the Reach worship of their own Gods.

"With us or against us" That doesn't exactly scream freedom of oppression.

We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down.

Ulfric used the Talos ban as a symbol to rally behind, he wasn't even gaining much support over the issue.

Ulfric founded the Stormcloaks years ago, as a sort of private army to advance his ambitions. He's always used the ban on the worship of Talos to stir people up against the Empire. He never succeeded in getting much support.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan, different being entirely.

Welcome to the thread by the way, always good to have new faces and views.

 

[Dradin]

Man... I never had the stomach to check out this thread. Finally decided that I will take a look at it and, geez. The Empire zealots do know they support an oppressive government founded upon blood and tyranny with decadence sprinkled in there, right?
As for the Stormcloaks, Talos is virtually Shor. All you lore-hounds know what that means. But by all means, just ask if you need me to spell it out for you.

I would be happy to have a civil debate with someone, but I will not stick around to hear a "mug of sheep's piss"

This thread has seen worse, it happens all the time. Just ask any Imperial supporter on these forums, they've all had a post dedicated to insults about them.

Interesting outlook. Though out of the two current factions, Empire or Stormcloaks, Windhelm is the only city in Skyrim and all the provinces of the Empire which racial segregation is law and a single race is banished from city walls forced to sleep under one roof on the docks.

You also have slavery in Markarth over a native population after Stormcloak take control over there. That "the people of the Reach should be in chains mining silver where they belong"

It is easy to point out the Talos ban as why Imperials are so oppressive, except the ban was hardly enforced and many Nords didn't care about it. Though generally what is overlooked is the fact the Nords themselves also forbid the people of the Reach worship of their own Gods.

"With us or against us" That doesn't exactly scream freedom of oppression.

We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down.

Ulfric used the Talos ban as a symbol to rally behind, he wasn't even gaining much support over the issue.

Ulfric founded the Stormcloaks years ago, as a sort of private army to advance his ambitions. He's always used the ban on the worship of Talos to stir people up against the Empire. He never succeeded in getting much support.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan, different being entirely.

Welcome to the thread by the way, always good to have new faces and views.

There are two entirely different debates here. I'll address them separately.

Opression in the Empire and the Stormcloaks:
First of all: across all Skyrim, Khajiit are banned from the cities. Therefore to claim that only the Stormcloaks racially discriminate is wrong.
Second: (This applies to the ever so apparent claim that Ulfric has no love for the Dunmer) We get the racial districts in Windhelm, and most only look at this as negative. To be fair, the Stormcloaks (dynasty and rebellion) had the compassion to let the Dark Elves into the city. As for the Argonians, let's look at this; if Ulfric really didn't care for the Dunmer, he would let the Dark Elves share the same area with the very race their fleeing from.

As for the Empire:
• Inefficient Beaucracy ( Ex. Vittoria Vici focusing more on her wedding than her very important job.)
• Corrupt Officials (Ex. Breton who pays Dark Brotherhood)
• Emperor (Ulfric does what many considered their best interest. He would not have so many followers if the inverse was true. Titus Mede II makes a decision that could easily be as argued as in his own best interest.)

Talos:

I said Shor was Talos. That is not meant to be taken literally. Shor is Lorkhan (The Antagonist of the Aldmeri Faith.) Shors principles can be identified with that of what Talos is regarded in Skyrim. The Nords originally wanted Shor to be a divine, yet it was decided he was too bloodthirsty. Therefore with the emergence of Talos worship, we have a culture identifying itself with what a person does. Both Shor and Talos are regarded as elf-killers. No wonder why the dominion gets pissed...

 

[Dradin]

As for this...

"This thread has seen worse, it happens all the time. Just ask any Imperial supporter on these forums, they've all had a post dedicated to insults about them."

I find it the opposite. The imperials are the ones insulting others and not the way you state it. I'm not to point fingers but you claim to be Dagmar's apprentice, yet from what I've seen she's been a harsh and unforgiving person who batters the emotional security of others.

Now that that's out of the way...

 

[DrunkenMage]

There are two entirely different debates here. I'll address them separately.

Opression in the Empire and the Stormcloaks:
First of all: across all Skyrim, Khajiit are banned from the cities. Therefore to claim that only the Stormcloaks racially discriminate is wrong.
Second: (This applies to the ever so apparent claim that Ulfric has no love for the Dunmer) We get the racial districts in Windhelm, and most only look at this as negative. To be fair, the Stormcloaks (dynasty and rebellion) had the compassion to let the Dark Elves into the city. As for the Argonians, let's look at this; if Ulfric really didn't care for the Dunmer, he would let the Dark Elves share the same area with the very race their fleeing from.

Khajiit Caravans are banned from the cities, a misconception that a Khajiit Caravan = entire race. Nords view the Khajiit caravans as thieves and skooma dealers.

During the main quest line a Khajiit tries to kill you in Riften's market. If the entire race is banned from cities, then that khajiit would not be there. Khajiit themselves can enter cities, not the caravans.

The Dunmer have been in Windhelm for over a hundred years, before thoughts of rebellion, before succession and hatred against the Empire. To say that the Stormcloak Jarls had the compassion two hundred years ago, doesn't mean they have it now.

There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were. - Scourge of the Gray Quarter.

Dunmer are not fleeing from the Argonians, the Argonian invasion was defeated by House Redoran, they only managed to cut a bloody path in the southern half of Morrowind.

Also what might add a little insult to injury, renaming a city district from the Snow Quarter to the Gray Quarter is hardly compassionate.

Racial segregation is still racial segregation, not matter how well one sugar coats it.

As for the Empire:
• Inefficient Beaucracy ( Ex. Vittoria Vici focusing more on her wedding than her very important job.)

Ulfric Stormcloak, poor Jarlship. Windhelm is in disrepair, the stockpiles are empty.

Vittoria Vici still goes to her job down at the Docks. East Empire Company is also a Merchant Guild not an arm of Imperial Government.

• Corrupt Officials (Ex. Breton who pays Dark Brotherhood)

No different to Ulfric killing his own King.

• Emperor (Ulfric does what many considered their best interest. He would not have so many followers if the inverse was true. Titus Mede II makes a decision that could easily be as argued as in his own best interest.)

All of the Empire agreed to the White-Gold Concordat with the exception of Hammerfell. Skyrim agreed and there were no issues for twenty six years the treaty has been in effect.

By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

What slips by some is that in Imperial politics, the Elder Council handle treaties and laws. The Emperor has the power of veto, the treaty which affects all provinces would of been agreed by the High King of Skyrim, King Istlod (Whom Ulfric calls a true leader) and the Kings of High Rock.

Talos:

I said Shor was Talos. That is not meant to be taken literally. Shor is Lorkhan (The Antagonist of the Aldmeri Faith.) Shors principles can be identified with that of what Talos is regarded in Skyrim. The Nords originally wanted Shor to be a divine, yet it was decided he was too bloodthirsty. Therefore with the emergence of Talos worship, we have a culture identifying itself with what a person does. Both Shor and Talos are regarded as elf-killers. No wonder why the dominion gets pissed...

Shezarr. Shor was the watered down version. Talos is regarded as the Hero-God of Mankind. In Nordic pantheon, Ysmir & Shor are completely different.

Dominion gets pissed because of religious belief. The Divines were the creation from an Aldmeri pantheon and watered down Nordic gods in the First Era. The Gods are known between both cultures under different names. Talos being added in the Third Era, Talos who was Emperor Tiber Septim becoming the greatest of the Ninth in Cyrodiil & Skyrim. It is heresy to them.

Many Nordic Gods are probably regarded as elf-killers.

As for this...

"This thread has seen worse, it happens all the time. Just ask any Imperial supporter on these forums, they've all had a post dedicated to insults about them."

I find it the opposite. The imperials are the ones insulting others and not the way you state it. I'm not to point fingers but you claim to be Dagmar's apprentice, yet from what I've seen she's been a harsh and unforgiving person who batters the emotional security of others.

Now that that's out of the way...

Dagmar isn't an Imperial supporter. Have you spoken with her before? Debated with her? Yet you judge because of what others tell you or something you have seen? Dagmar will debate corrections in lore and is actually a good source of knowledge. Earned the respect of many on these forums, she has also been one of the most major contributors to Skyrimforums. Yet those who have lost debates against her, have waited until she is no longer on the forums to actually try insult and discredit her.

I also haven't claimed to be anything.

Imperials are insulting others? Or by Imperials do you mean I am insulting others?