Lethennon
Member
I personally enchant my armor with fortify destruction magic. Play a vampire rogue destruction caster. Never spent a single point in mana because all my destruction spells are free. -25% to cost on four pieces.
Spoiler College of Winterhold - Destruction 101
- Thread starter Zolo-Shea
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I personally enchant my armor with fortify destruction magic. Play a vampire rogue destruction caster. Never spent a single point in mana because all my destruction spells are free. -25% to cost on four pieces.
Psiberzerker
Author
That's great, but has little to nothing to do with how you Use Destruction. Impact, got that, that it? If you dumb Destruction down to just 1 perk for every fight, then it's just Damage (and Stagger, I guess.) Congratulations, now you don't have to think! Every fight boils down to "I hit him, is he dead? I hit him again." Not significantly different from a Fighter, with Sparkles.
Lethennon
Member
I am not sure what you are saying here.
Enchanting your armor so you have no mana cost is dumb?
I actually pay 0% mana on destruction, and boost archery and one handed by 80% in my gear. Use sneak combined with slow time to get off huge nukes, or just cut them down melee if I so choose. I like options in my death delivery.
Dual casting in this context has no con to efficiency since cost is irrelevant.
This is also important if you want to fight from a dragons back, which is LOTS of fun. Set the dragon on a target, and hurl fireballs.
Psiberzerker
Author
I applaud your versatility. (No sarcasm intended.) My point is, this thread is about the basics of effectively using Destruction Magic. Your advice is "Enchant 4 pieces of gear with 25% Fortify Destruction, and don't invest in Magicka." That's great, but that's Enchanting, not Destruction. If you're going for pure Damage, then you probably already know that you can do more of it with a Bow than with Fireballs. (Even riding a Dragon.) What your advice boils down to then is don't learn to play a Mage, break the game so you don't have to. Dual Casting forces you to use targeted Spells, because they don't work on others, like Wall of Flames. What I'm saying is, if you learn All spells, in All elements, you can get better performance than just dumbing it down to "Impact, 'nuff said." (Not quoting you, but I've read that exact thing several times from different people in countless places on the 'web.)
With that strategy, the most powerful spell you have at your disposal is Incinerate, with Augment Flames, and Dual Casting, that's (75x1.5x2.20) 247.5 per casting+On Fire damage. Of that, less than 10% is from Dual Casting. For contrast, Wall Spells do 75 damage per second for 20 seconds, per incidence. With a Grounded Dragon, for example, you can hose down it's entire footprint with 2 different elements to stack up countless incidences, and finish it off in a few seconds. (The effect lasts longer than the Dragon does, even with Ancients, or even Alduin, I tested this on Master in a Loincloth.) If one of those Elements is Frost, even if it's Frost Resistant, then it can't take off, and you only have to use Dragonrend once. I know, you have Bend Will, so you can just hop on, and ride off like a boss, and this tactic doesn't work mounted, but that's not every fight, and it's useless underground, or in close quarters where you can't even summon Odaviing.
These are just examples, to illustrate my central point. There is a wide variety of spells, and effects just within Destruction. Now, you can use, or teach people to use 1, or 2 effects, or you can learn to use all of them, or as many nasty combos as you can come up with, and share them with the rest of the class. The Stat most associated with Mages in every game I've played with Stats, and Magic (Including earlier versions of TES) is Intelligence. Most of them add that it's what gives you Magicka, or Mana, or governs how many spells you can learn/memorise/cast, but the real idea is that any idiot can play the Damage Race with Weapons. Harnassing, and directing the elemental energies of the universe effectively requires reason, and intellect, not just to figure out how these forces work, but also what to use when, and how. It's complicated, so you have to think.
I feel much the same about Free Destruction. Mages use Magicka, that's why they put it in the game, added all those items, and perks to reduce, and regenerate it. Enchanting so it's no longer an issue isn't playing a mage, it's making your character into a Staff of Fireballs.
With that strategy, the most powerful spell you have at your disposal is Incinerate, with Augment Flames, and Dual Casting, that's (75x1.5x2.20) 247.5 per casting+On Fire damage. Of that, less than 10% is from Dual Casting. For contrast, Wall Spells do 75 damage per second for 20 seconds, per incidence. With a Grounded Dragon, for example, you can hose down it's entire footprint with 2 different elements to stack up countless incidences, and finish it off in a few seconds. (The effect lasts longer than the Dragon does, even with Ancients, or even Alduin, I tested this on Master in a Loincloth.) If one of those Elements is Frost, even if it's Frost Resistant, then it can't take off, and you only have to use Dragonrend once. I know, you have Bend Will, so you can just hop on, and ride off like a boss, and this tactic doesn't work mounted, but that's not every fight, and it's useless underground, or in close quarters where you can't even summon Odaviing.
These are just examples, to illustrate my central point. There is a wide variety of spells, and effects just within Destruction. Now, you can use, or teach people to use 1, or 2 effects, or you can learn to use all of them, or as many nasty combos as you can come up with, and share them with the rest of the class. The Stat most associated with Mages in every game I've played with Stats, and Magic (Including earlier versions of TES) is Intelligence. Most of them add that it's what gives you Magicka, or Mana, or governs how many spells you can learn/memorise/cast, but the real idea is that any idiot can play the Damage Race with Weapons. Harnassing, and directing the elemental energies of the universe effectively requires reason, and intellect, not just to figure out how these forces work, but also what to use when, and how. It's complicated, so you have to think.
I feel much the same about Free Destruction. Mages use Magicka, that's why they put it in the game, added all those items, and perks to reduce, and regenerate it. Enchanting so it's no longer an issue isn't playing a mage, it's making your character into a Staff of Fireballs.
Lethennon
Member
It seems you are rallying against the actual construction of the game. It is not "breaking" the game to be able to use destruction as a rogue enhancing resource free source of aoe/ranged damage.
In truth outside of AOE damage, you are right to state that destruction magic takes a backseat to every other damage type. Which is on the game developers themselves. Why make such insanely powerful buffs like for example Slow Time as a shout, or one/two handed and archery buffs, but not add in enchantments or effects that can boost destruction dmg (aside form the few masks)?
In its current form, and to speak for the initial purpose of the thread, I would say fire damage is pretty much the best in my opinion. Firestorm, and fireballs being the choice for AOE damage, aside from the vampire lords life drain ball. Only when you count AOE though does destruction magic become the top damage dealing choice.
That being said, I wish it wasn't true. I have always been a mage or a rogue player at heart. My character being a hybrid. I would love to see a caster oriented expansion come out that adds destruction magic boosting enchants to the game.
In truth outside of AOE damage, you are right to state that destruction magic takes a backseat to every other damage type. Which is on the game developers themselves. Why make such insanely powerful buffs like for example Slow Time as a shout, or one/two handed and archery buffs, but not add in enchantments or effects that can boost destruction dmg (aside form the few masks)?
In its current form, and to speak for the initial purpose of the thread, I would say fire damage is pretty much the best in my opinion. Firestorm, and fireballs being the choice for AOE damage, aside from the vampire lords life drain ball. Only when you count AOE though does destruction magic become the top damage dealing choice.
That being said, I wish it wasn't true. I have always been a mage or a rogue player at heart. My character being a hybrid. I would love to see a caster oriented expansion come out that adds destruction magic boosting enchants to the game.
Psiberzerker
Author
Not at all. In the above example, I saved at the Throat of the World to test out various ways to defeat Him as quickly as possible. In a loincloth, because the challange was to do it without Equipment (Non sequitor to this discussion.) I tried Bound Swords, Bound Bow, Impact Thunder Bolts, Lightning Storm, and many others.
By playtesting, the fastest way, by far was Storm Wall, and Frost Wall (So He couldn't take off, and force me to switch tactics/use Dragonrend again, wasting time.) So, purely from the standpoint of Damage/Sec, Wall Spells turned out to be more powerful than even Weapons (Unless you run the crafting loop/Fort Resto Potion glitches to get insanely damaging weapons.) Note, Flame Wall wasn't even in there, on paper it's the most powerful, but when I tried it, it was actually Slower than Frost/Shock. I firmly believe that Destruction was limited to prevent it over-powering the game, even without enchanting away Magicka. The problem seems to stem from thinking of Spells like Weapons, or at least Ammo. If you take Health in incremental sips, like with weapon Strikes, then Dual Casting for that extra 10-15 points of damage makes sense, on paper. However, if you use Spells to incapacitate, and constantly destroy the enemy, then you OWN them, even if it's the World Eater. He was literally Helpless, with Spell Absorbtion, all I had to do is stand far enough back that all He could hit me with was Shouts, which only made me more powerful.
I did this without Equipment, but it would work just as well with your glitch suit. Free is free, after all. I suppose you never learned what the most powerful spells in the game even were because of your dependence on Dual Casting. They don't work together, so they must be crap, right? With Impact, you can even stunlock them in the AoE of your damage puddle, which is more powerful than Arrows, less dangerous than going toe-to toe with Weapons, or a Shield Mage can do the same thing with Bashes, and Never Be In Any Danger. This is the problem with not having to think, you only learn the Exploits you read about on the internet. I just told you how Destruction can be More Powerful than even Weapons under the right circumstances, but because you had to think, you just skipped right past it, and dismissed it as me not likeing the way the game is set up. Far from it, I love all the little loopholes, and ways to use varying effects together to play the game. You're the one who'd dismissed Destruction as nerfed, and blaming the developers for compensating on Weapons.
If you don't have to think, you never learn anything.
By playtesting, the fastest way, by far was Storm Wall, and Frost Wall (So He couldn't take off, and force me to switch tactics/use Dragonrend again, wasting time.) So, purely from the standpoint of Damage/Sec, Wall Spells turned out to be more powerful than even Weapons (Unless you run the crafting loop/Fort Resto Potion glitches to get insanely damaging weapons.) Note, Flame Wall wasn't even in there, on paper it's the most powerful, but when I tried it, it was actually Slower than Frost/Shock. I firmly believe that Destruction was limited to prevent it over-powering the game, even without enchanting away Magicka. The problem seems to stem from thinking of Spells like Weapons, or at least Ammo. If you take Health in incremental sips, like with weapon Strikes, then Dual Casting for that extra 10-15 points of damage makes sense, on paper. However, if you use Spells to incapacitate, and constantly destroy the enemy, then you OWN them, even if it's the World Eater. He was literally Helpless, with Spell Absorbtion, all I had to do is stand far enough back that all He could hit me with was Shouts, which only made me more powerful.
I did this without Equipment, but it would work just as well with your glitch suit. Free is free, after all. I suppose you never learned what the most powerful spells in the game even were because of your dependence on Dual Casting. They don't work together, so they must be crap, right? With Impact, you can even stunlock them in the AoE of your damage puddle, which is more powerful than Arrows, less dangerous than going toe-to toe with Weapons, or a Shield Mage can do the same thing with Bashes, and Never Be In Any Danger. This is the problem with not having to think, you only learn the Exploits you read about on the internet. I just told you how Destruction can be More Powerful than even Weapons under the right circumstances, but because you had to think, you just skipped right past it, and dismissed it as me not likeing the way the game is set up. Far from it, I love all the little loopholes, and ways to use varying effects together to play the game. You're the one who'd dismissed Destruction as nerfed, and blaming the developers for compensating on Weapons.
If you don't have to think, you never learn anything.
Lethennon
Member
Why do you keep calling my armor a "glitch suit" I used NO glitches in gearing my character.
With 100 enchanting, and 5/5 enchanting perk, you get -25% cost to cast per fortify destruction. No glitches.
Seems you're the one not thinking.
To add you, yourself, stated the problem. Destruction skills are situational at best. The only way they become better is if you IGNORE weapon/bow enchants on your armor.
So by selectively ignoring variables that boost other damage sources you run a contained experiment where destruction spells barely eek ahead. You also make tons of assumptions. Addiction to dual casting? Not even sure what that is implying. I personally have every destruction spell in the game and have tried them all out in different situations.
With 100 enchanting, and 5/5 enchanting perk, you get -25% cost to cast per fortify destruction. No glitches.
Seems you're the one not thinking.
To add you, yourself, stated the problem. Destruction skills are situational at best. The only way they become better is if you IGNORE weapon/bow enchants on your armor.
So by selectively ignoring variables that boost other damage sources you run a contained experiment where destruction spells barely eek ahead. You also make tons of assumptions. Addiction to dual casting? Not even sure what that is implying. I personally have every destruction spell in the game and have tried them all out in different situations.
Psiberzerker
Author
Just my pet name for it. (Much faster to type than "100% free Destruction." It's just shorthand, and you knew immediately what I was talking about.) Is that all you got out of all my posts? Let me put it to you in explicit terms. Wall Spells, try them out. They do the most damage. Even in your Non-glitch suit, you can defeat any enemy on the ground faster with those than any other effect in Destruction. Pro-Tip: Don't try Wall of Storms with Impact, the former Glitches the latter so that they aren't Staggered, and walk right out of the AoE.
For another tactic, try Frost Roading. Run away casting Wall of Frost at your feet, and kite the enemy over it. The Slow effect means they will never catch you, but this works best with an unencumbered Altmer's running speed. Most effective on Warlord Gathric, Giants, Frost/Trolls, The Ebony Warrior (Since it's not targeted it doesn't proc his Reflect effect) and any other big badass you don't want anywhere near you. They just die tired.
All of these can be done with Dragon Priest Staffs with the same effect, if you want the Enchanting XP from keeping them charged instead of Destruction, because you already leveled that to 100. (You have to get Enchant maxed for extra effect anyway, this doesn't cost Money.) Even my non-Destruction characters hang onto these as well as Jyrik's as backups. Or, my mages use them when they run out of Magicka, they don't use it either.
For another tactic, try Frost Roading. Run away casting Wall of Frost at your feet, and kite the enemy over it. The Slow effect means they will never catch you, but this works best with an unencumbered Altmer's running speed. Most effective on Warlord Gathric, Giants, Frost/Trolls, The Ebony Warrior (Since it's not targeted it doesn't proc his Reflect effect) and any other big badass you don't want anywhere near you. They just die tired.
All of these can be done with Dragon Priest Staffs with the same effect, if you want the Enchanting XP from keeping them charged instead of Destruction, because you already leveled that to 100. (You have to get Enchant maxed for extra effect anyway, this doesn't cost Money.) Even my non-Destruction characters hang onto these as well as Jyrik's as backups. Or, my mages use them when they run out of Magicka, they don't use it either.
Lethennon
Member
See, I dont have to kite the enemy. Because once they close on me, I switch to my life draining swords and cut them down.
Using destruction for AOE, swords for close range, and archery for sniping, daggers when i just feel like playing easymode. Basically I use the highest damage potential method for each situation.
Wall spells are great and all, but cast time to tic time, I can just cut someone down in half that. It is just not the best choice for any given situation where output is concerned.
Now if you wanna have fun, and just play with the spells...then sure, but if you want the quickest way to drop an enemy. Then Destruction is marginalized to AOE damage for efficency.
Using destruction for AOE, swords for close range, and archery for sniping, daggers when i just feel like playing easymode. Basically I use the highest damage potential method for each situation.
Wall spells are great and all, but cast time to tic time, I can just cut someone down in half that. It is just not the best choice for any given situation where output is concerned.
Now if you wanna have fun, and just play with the spells...then sure, but if you want the quickest way to drop an enemy. Then Destruction is marginalized to AOE damage for efficency.
Psiberzerker
Author
Let's just assume that you're not the only one who's going to read this, Mmm kay? You don't want my advice, got that, someone else might use it. For the Ebony Warrior, I can't think of a safer, more effective way to defeat him with Destruction.
I agree that AoE is where Destuction really shines, Wall Spells included. If it's not a single enemy, then you can kite armies over the Frost Road, and they all die tired. I never said it was the most efficient way in every situation, just used examples of how they can actually out-perform other Destruction Spells (And in some cases, even weapons.)
Here's another. Purely from a damage standpoint, the most powerful thing is a Dagger with Assassin's Blade, but only in the right situation. If you set it up for a Backstab, it's generally a 1HK. Outside of that, you can be at least as effective with a Sword, or Greatsword, depending on the build, and tactics. Likewise, Wall spells can be the most powerful option in the Destruction Spellbook, under the right circumstances, if you know how to use them. (Scroll up for examples.) With other enemies, or if you happen to be on a Dragon, you might be better served with Fireball (Massed enemies) Thunderbolt (Single Enemy) or a Bow.
Again, that's alls I'm saying. If we're discussing learning how to use any skill, or weapon, I'm going to discuss how to use Everything available to you. So far, I focused mostly on Wall Spells, because you don't have to go far to find info on Dual Casting, and someone made me repeat myself by completely missing what I say to mis-interpret my meaning.
I agree that AoE is where Destuction really shines, Wall Spells included. If it's not a single enemy, then you can kite armies over the Frost Road, and they all die tired. I never said it was the most efficient way in every situation, just used examples of how they can actually out-perform other Destruction Spells (And in some cases, even weapons.)
Here's another. Purely from a damage standpoint, the most powerful thing is a Dagger with Assassin's Blade, but only in the right situation. If you set it up for a Backstab, it's generally a 1HK. Outside of that, you can be at least as effective with a Sword, or Greatsword, depending on the build, and tactics. Likewise, Wall spells can be the most powerful option in the Destruction Spellbook, under the right circumstances, if you know how to use them. (Scroll up for examples.) With other enemies, or if you happen to be on a Dragon, you might be better served with Fireball (Massed enemies) Thunderbolt (Single Enemy) or a Bow.
Again, that's alls I'm saying. If we're discussing learning how to use any skill, or weapon, I'm going to discuss how to use Everything available to you. So far, I focused mostly on Wall Spells, because you don't have to go far to find info on Dual Casting, and someone made me repeat myself by completely missing what I say to mis-interpret my meaning.
Lethennon
Member
I gave my advice. That is to diversify or forever be trying to make up for choosing an inadequate form of offense. You obviously disagree, and that is your right.
As much as that sucks for people who like pure mages.
Lethennon
Member
To add, I find it specifically bias to state that using mana reduction enchantments is not playing a real mage. In truth I would think it is a mages failure to not obtain robes and enchant their items to reduce wholly or to a great percent their cost to cast.
A mage could for example use alteration, conjuration, and destruction. Having two pets out, and augmenting them with alteration and destruciton spells while paying zero mana in two schools or splitting it to drop by 50% each individual spell.
The initial comment I posted was in regards to a complaint about mana efficency in regards to dual casting. Which wouldnt be an issue if you properly enchanted your gear.
Perhaps you should use all the available resources and options to augment your destruction, and just not a small part of it. The lid may be heavy, but the world outside your box is bright.
A mage could for example use alteration, conjuration, and destruction. Having two pets out, and augmenting them with alteration and destruciton spells while paying zero mana in two schools or splitting it to drop by 50% each individual spell.
The initial comment I posted was in regards to a complaint about mana efficency in regards to dual casting. Which wouldnt be an issue if you properly enchanted your gear.
Perhaps you should use all the available resources and options to augment your destruction, and just not a small part of it. The lid may be heavy, but the world outside your box is bright.
Psiberzerker
Author
{Sigh} Look, you gave your advice, I gave mine. As that stands, that's fine. However, one of us is debating the very foundation of the other's playtested and diverse advice. Look up any FAQ on Destruction, the first answer is pretty much yours', verbatum. I've read it before, and anyone else on the Internet who's reasearched Skyrim at all has too. That's not "Diverse." I even use most of it, except the free Destruction, because I like Robes, and don't care for making Regenerate Magicka a useless waste of Enchantment slots.
The Only reason I spent so much time on Wall spells, other than they hadn't been mentioned yet was this little "They suck" attitude of yours to completely supplant my advice with your original, and unheard of revelation. I would have loved to spend the rest of this page talking about something else, but even agreeing to disagree, you can't help using language like "Inferior", and "Inadequate."
You're teh God of Skyrim, and I'm not fit to shine your necklace of Fortify Destruction, I get it.
The Only reason I spent so much time on Wall spells, other than they hadn't been mentioned yet was this little "They suck" attitude of yours to completely supplant my advice with your original, and unheard of revelation. I would have loved to spend the rest of this page talking about something else, but even agreeing to disagree, you can't help using language like "Inferior", and "Inadequate."
You're teh God of Skyrim, and I'm not fit to shine your necklace of Fortify Destruction, I get it.
Psiberzerker
Author
Again, that's not what I'm saying, at all. Your "Attitude" is that your advice is the only one with merit, original, and adds diversity to the game. It Isn't, Isn't, and Doesn't. I take it personally, because every time I say it, no matter how, it's "Inferior," "Inadequate" and any number of other words that imply you rock, and I suck for even considering using something other than the Gamefax Optimum Build. IME, I tried all of it, I mean ALL of it, and in certain situations, Wall of Frost is the way to go. You don't play that way, so that's falling on your deaf ears. You Are Not The Only One Who Will Ever Read This Thread. Yours' is also not the only opinion anyone will consider. It's not even your opinion, you aren't the first to come up with this perfectly not in any way glitchlike build that makes all but Fortify School enchantments an afterthought the Dev team must have put in the game to steer us away from the True Path.
Stop. Just stop so someone else can talk about something else, for once.
Stop. Just stop so someone else can talk about something else, for once.
Lethennon
Member
Seems you just cant handle anothers opinion without takins some kind of offense or feeling insecure.
"I suck for even considering using something other than the Gamefax Optimum Build."
Nobody said you suck bro, calm down.
"Your's is also not the only opnion anyone will consider."
Never said mine was the only opinion. Or playstyle.
"Dev team must have put in the game to steer us away from the True Path."
Never said anything about true path, or better, or worse as choices go.
Merely pointed out that your assertions that dual casting is inefficient is not correct if you enchant your armor.
In fact my statements point out that it is less damage, but never once have I minimalized anyone for choosing the option. Honestly I imagine it is a harder way to play the game. Which is never bad. Though telling folks, or perpetuating a message that claims it is on equal footing with the other forms of offense is misleading and not true.
"I suck for even considering using something other than the Gamefax Optimum Build."
Nobody said you suck bro, calm down.
"Your's is also not the only opnion anyone will consider."
Never said mine was the only opinion. Or playstyle.
"Dev team must have put in the game to steer us away from the True Path."
Never said anything about true path, or better, or worse as choices go.
Merely pointed out that your assertions that dual casting is inefficient is not correct if you enchant your armor.
In fact my statements point out that it is less damage, but never once have I minimalized anyone for choosing the option. Honestly I imagine it is a harder way to play the game. Which is never bad. Though telling folks, or perpetuating a message that claims it is on equal footing with the other forms of offense is misleading and not true.
Psiberzerker
Author
Then don't call it Inferior. It isn't. If used effectively, I've said how, Wall of Frost is one of the best ways to deal with certain enemies. Not all Enemies, not the only way, but it beat the two ultimate bosses of the Game, and one of the expansions faster, and/or safer than any thing else. This is not what I call "Inferior." In other battles, Fireball might be better, in still others, it might be a Bow, or a Dagger. Optimising to always use the most effective attack as you said is your default playstyle is not making the game more difficult.
Fortify Destruction makes Fortify Magicka, Fortify Magicka Regeneration, Fortify Destruction, and Magicka Regeneration (The default enchantment on Robes of Destruction) and Apprentice-Master Destruction Perks a wasted investment. The Archmages Robes, and Morokei, the ultimate prize for, and symbol of attaining the highest rank for Mages in Skyrim are pretty much useless compared to your Armor of Mass Destruction. I'm not going to speak for the dev team here, but I sincerely doubt they added all that diversity to the game options with the intent that Mages Fortify Destruction as the only enchantment they need. I feel that it's far more likely that they forgot to cap Fortify Skill enchantments the way they did with Resistances so other classes can't make Health, and Stamina afterthoughts as well. Just my personal theory. Regardless, using it to squeeze that last 10-15 damage out of your spells without penalty is not making the game more challenging. If you're going to rationalize your position, at least try to make it internally consistent.
Just because you haven't figured out, or listened to how something like Wall of Frost CAN be used effectively does not mean that it's misleading. It's playtested, on Master, and directly compared with the other tactics. Therefore, claiming it's inferior, and ineffective, despite several specific examples to the contrary is misleading, and not true. That's the only reason I annealed, I put a lot of work into this, I'm kind of proud that I've found something nobody else seems to be using is so insanely powerful, and because you don't understand it, you're telling everyone it's a Lie. That, and it is in no way mutually exclusive with your advice. It works with everything you said, with the exception of Dual Casting, and I've stated that explicitely.
Now, can we move on, or do you need to get in the last words? As long as it's not to the effect of "This guy's wrong, don't listen to him," I'll let you have it.
Fortify Destruction makes Fortify Magicka, Fortify Magicka Regeneration, Fortify Destruction, and Magicka Regeneration (The default enchantment on Robes of Destruction) and Apprentice-Master Destruction Perks a wasted investment. The Archmages Robes, and Morokei, the ultimate prize for, and symbol of attaining the highest rank for Mages in Skyrim are pretty much useless compared to your Armor of Mass Destruction. I'm not going to speak for the dev team here, but I sincerely doubt they added all that diversity to the game options with the intent that Mages Fortify Destruction as the only enchantment they need. I feel that it's far more likely that they forgot to cap Fortify Skill enchantments the way they did with Resistances so other classes can't make Health, and Stamina afterthoughts as well. Just my personal theory. Regardless, using it to squeeze that last 10-15 damage out of your spells without penalty is not making the game more challenging. If you're going to rationalize your position, at least try to make it internally consistent.
Just because you haven't figured out, or listened to how something like Wall of Frost CAN be used effectively does not mean that it's misleading. It's playtested, on Master, and directly compared with the other tactics. Therefore, claiming it's inferior, and ineffective, despite several specific examples to the contrary is misleading, and not true. That's the only reason I annealed, I put a lot of work into this, I'm kind of proud that I've found something nobody else seems to be using is so insanely powerful, and because you don't understand it, you're telling everyone it's a Lie. That, and it is in no way mutually exclusive with your advice. It works with everything you said, with the exception of Dual Casting, and I've stated that explicitely.
Now, can we move on, or do you need to get in the last words? As long as it's not to the effect of "This guy's wrong, don't listen to him," I'll let you have it.
Lethennon
Member
The damage per second is not higher than a direct assault with one handed weapons, or any assault using the slow time spell.
The tactic you're describing has its niche, it can be used situationally at best, and the results are second to other more direct methods in damage output.
If you are going all destruction mage just to do it, then its a great tactic. If you are playing the game in a min-maxing sense then it is overshadowed by more direct methods.
The tactic you're describing has its niche, it can be used situationally at best, and the results are second to other more direct methods in damage output.
If you are going all destruction mage just to do it, then its a great tactic. If you are playing the game in a min-maxing sense then it is overshadowed by more direct methods.
Psiberzerker
Author
Ok, there are also combos that are not of the Pure Destruction Mage variety which work well with it too. As stated earlier, a Shield mage can stunlock the enemy in the AoE to finish them quickly. This helps a lot with the main problem with Wall Spells, the enemy can walk right out of them. With Augment Flames, the Fear effect can cause them to do it, so I'd avoid that perk if these are used as primary spells, or just not use Fire Spells to get them burning if you do. They also work well with Paralysis Effects, from Paralyzing Strike for a Spellsword, Deep Freeze, Ice Form, or Paralysis Poison. You can also stack the DoT effects from Elemental Cloak spells (Not Whirlwind Cloak, of course) Bleed from a Handaxe, the Targe of the Blooded, or Frostbite Venom.
Here's actually where Wall Spells really shine, adding more damage to whatever you're doing with the other hand, short of Backstabbing. I will point out that neither Wall, nor Cloaks seem to proc the tertiary effects from Perks like Intense Flames by themselves, but you still can with spells in the other hand. For Magicka Efficiency (If that's even a concern) the Duration of the effect means you can pulse it onto the floor for a good 20 seconds, then Bash, or whatever to keep them in the AoE. By the time you have to cast it again, you should have regenerated fully, unless you burned down your blue gauge with other spells. You can also conserve charge on your Dragon Priest Staffs, the Cost is per second, but you don't have to hold it down like a Concentration Spell, so this turns out to be the most Magicka Efficient as well. (If you use a Shield, you don't even have to invest in Magicka to use this tactic, so Stamina might be a good idea.) I've also used a Torch for Stagger, and On Fire Status to finish the fight fast.
With a Spellsword, this is an effective Weenie Whacker tactic if you're getting overrun by a Zerg Rush. (Rieklings come to mind, Zot the spear chuckers first.) I've covered bottlenecks, like corridors, and smacked them as the came in. The bodies just piled up. (You can do a similar thing with oil in Bleak Falls barrow if you know where to stand.) For heavy Duels, I use Critical Charge (Usually after a Disintegrate Bolt to lower their defenses) hose their feet, and alternate Power Attacks (I used a Drainspell Sword) with topping it off as needed for more opponents, if the show up. I managed to defeat the Draugr Overlords on my way to pick up the Bloodskal Blade, and in lost Volskygg this way. Careful to time your approach on the ones with Ebony Bows, unless you can take those shots. Once you get them staggered, the fight is pretty much over.
Lethennon is partially right about the on paper damage of the spells alone, but doubled up (2 different elements) or with another high damage dealer, they add Moar Damage you don't have to spend as much Stamina on (Like Dual Flurry) nor Magicka except every few seconds. Once again, that's not the only consideration, though. One fraction of a second pulse does 75 damage for 20 seconds, that's 1500 damage all by itself, if you can keep them in the AoE, and you can double it with 2 different effects in the same spot. Enemies with large footprints, like grounded Dragons, Spiders, Charus, Ballistae, and suchlike can also be affected by multiple instances of the same spell. If your method of Stagger, or Paralysis also does damage (Like Paralysis/Lingering Damage Poison+Weapon Damage) this will kill just about anything. A final thing is most of these require close quarters, where Magic is generally weak. An Alteration/Destruction mage can be extremely effective with these, and Paralysis, if you know how to use them...
Other than that, I mostly agree with the above statements.
Here's actually where Wall Spells really shine, adding more damage to whatever you're doing with the other hand, short of Backstabbing. I will point out that neither Wall, nor Cloaks seem to proc the tertiary effects from Perks like Intense Flames by themselves, but you still can with spells in the other hand. For Magicka Efficiency (If that's even a concern) the Duration of the effect means you can pulse it onto the floor for a good 20 seconds, then Bash, or whatever to keep them in the AoE. By the time you have to cast it again, you should have regenerated fully, unless you burned down your blue gauge with other spells. You can also conserve charge on your Dragon Priest Staffs, the Cost is per second, but you don't have to hold it down like a Concentration Spell, so this turns out to be the most Magicka Efficient as well. (If you use a Shield, you don't even have to invest in Magicka to use this tactic, so Stamina might be a good idea.) I've also used a Torch for Stagger, and On Fire Status to finish the fight fast.
With a Spellsword, this is an effective Weenie Whacker tactic if you're getting overrun by a Zerg Rush. (Rieklings come to mind, Zot the spear chuckers first.) I've covered bottlenecks, like corridors, and smacked them as the came in. The bodies just piled up. (You can do a similar thing with oil in Bleak Falls barrow if you know where to stand.) For heavy Duels, I use Critical Charge (Usually after a Disintegrate Bolt to lower their defenses) hose their feet, and alternate Power Attacks (I used a Drainspell Sword) with topping it off as needed for more opponents, if the show up. I managed to defeat the Draugr Overlords on my way to pick up the Bloodskal Blade, and in lost Volskygg this way. Careful to time your approach on the ones with Ebony Bows, unless you can take those shots. Once you get them staggered, the fight is pretty much over.
Lethennon is partially right about the on paper damage of the spells alone, but doubled up (2 different elements) or with another high damage dealer, they add Moar Damage you don't have to spend as much Stamina on (Like Dual Flurry) nor Magicka except every few seconds. Once again, that's not the only consideration, though. One fraction of a second pulse does 75 damage for 20 seconds, that's 1500 damage all by itself, if you can keep them in the AoE, and you can double it with 2 different effects in the same spot. Enemies with large footprints, like grounded Dragons, Spiders, Charus, Ballistae, and suchlike can also be affected by multiple instances of the same spell. If your method of Stagger, or Paralysis also does damage (Like Paralysis/Lingering Damage Poison+Weapon Damage) this will kill just about anything. A final thing is most of these require close quarters, where Magic is generally weak. An Alteration/Destruction mage can be extremely effective with these, and Paralysis, if you know how to use them...
Other than that, I mostly agree with the above statements.
Reaper0021
Steam: Reaper0021
I've spent the better part of 40 minutes reading the "back and forth" debate on this Psi. I know that, on PC, we had mods that eliminated the stacking abilities and fixed the way people Glitch-Suited the enchants for the Destro reduction stacking. This was done to balance the game and make it more "In-Line" with what we thought the developers were aiming at with the way the Destro school works.
At any rate, You've made my builds for me in the past, and I have followed your advice. It has made for a much much more enjoyable game. That being said, I'd just opt-out of any more posts in response to the New Guy. Opinions are like a$$holes...everybody has got one.
At any rate, You've made my builds for me in the past, and I have followed your advice. It has made for a much much more enjoyable game. That being said, I'd just opt-out of any more posts in response to the New Guy. Opinions are like a$$holes...everybody has got one.
