Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

No. If that were the case, he would have sided with the Imperials a long time ago.

On the contrary if it weren't he surely would have sided with the Stormcloaks long ago.

"The Divines reveal things to me at times, yes. I do not hide this. It is a gift. Anyone who believes otherwise does not and cannot understand it."

She's a Mystic. The entire family have the visions, they're not the only ones. Sissel a child in Rorikstead has visions of Paarthy.

Much like your Dragonblood, a gift or a curse. Fighting for Talos is pointless, if you condemn and shun what you don't understand

*sigh* I suppose your right, it's the old Nordic obstinance, it comes to burden, and also help, me
Sometimes

Haha, he does politics like the Nibenese. Hiding behind symbols... Look at High Kings of old, were they loved because of how they dressed or because they made their swords look special? No. He focuses on his image either because he's obsessed with only himself, or he's ashamed of himself and tries to be worthy in the eyes of his dead father.

Didn't you just quote someone who said that his political move to spare Elisif was absolutely brilliant? And now your saying he sucks at it? Just as I said before, you Imperials are more flip floppity than pancakes

Many Jarls aren't walking amongst their people due to the war. Except Balgruuf and Vignar. Shame Skald won't take a stroll, he wouldn't be missed.

Yeah that exactly my point, Laila is in the same boat with her, but we've already proven her idiocy.

 

[DrunkenMage]

On the contrary if it weren't he surely would have sided with the Stormcloaks long ago.

Oh? So because he decides to side with the Empire in the end, it is obviously due to bias against Ulfric?

Didn't you just quote someone who said that his political move to spare Elisif was absolutely brilliant? And now your saying he sucks at it? Just as I said before, you Imperials are more flip floppity than pancakes

I didn't say he sucks at politics? Just he does politics like the Nibenese.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Oh? So because he decides to side with the Empire in the end, it is obviously due to bias against Ulfric?

No, because the reason he gave for Supporting the Empire prior to the Battle of Whiterun was not "Skyrim needs the Empire" it was "I might still be loyal to the Empire". It's also become increasingly clear Balgruuf doesn't want anything to do with the Empire. From bending knee to the Thalmor, to the Empire constantly pestering him about his loyalty, to outlawing Talos worship, and finally for bribing him with chests of gold so that he doesn't rebel himself! He's a Talos worshiper, he hates the Thalmor, and hes at odds with the Empire, not to mention he doesn't claim Ulfric only wants power and believes that he is actually serious about this rebellion. He should be a Stormcloak through and through, and yet, he isn't, and you know goddamn well why he isn't, Mage. It's because of his personal Bias with Ulfric, he doesn't want to see that man on the throne because of their petty little rivalry. Well at least Ulfric had the decency to let bygones be bygones.

 

[DrunkenMage]

No, because the reason he gave for Supporting the Empire prior to the Battle of Whiterun was not "Skyrim needs the Empire" it was "I might still be loyal to the Empire".

"If it's the war you're referring to, I'm on the side of Whiterun. No doubt General Tullius and his friends in the Empire will tell you that I owe them my loyalty, and perhaps I do. Ulfric Stormcloak would say that I owe my allegiance to the Nord people as they fight for Skyrim's independence. Perhaps this is also true. The day might come when I am forced to draw my sword for one side or the other. But that day has not come yet."

It's also become increasingly clear Balgruuf doesn't want anything to do with the Empire. From bending knee to the Thalmor, to the Empire constantly pestering him about his loyalty, to outlawing Talos worship, and finally for bribing him with chests of gold so that he doesn't rebel himself!

The chests of gold were sent to the Jarls after the signing of the White-Gold Concordat. Reparations for the terms or compensation for the war effort they would have helped paid for when Cyrodiil was mostly lost.

Ulfric is constantly pestering him too. "The man is persistent, I'll give him that."

He's a Talos worshiper, he hates the Thalmor

So he's like many within the Empire?

and hes at odds with the Empire, not to mention he doesn't claim Ulfric only wants power and believes that he is actually serious about this rebellion.

So if he had personal bias against Ulfric, why does he claim Ulfric is after power and his rebellion is false, right off?

He should be a Stormcloak through and through, and yet, he isn't, and you know goddamn well why he isn't, Mage. It's because of his personal Bias with Ulfric, he doesn't want to see that man on the throne because of their petty little rivalry.

Balgruuf doesn't like Elisif or Ulfric. But, you're using a personal bias yourself using only one piece of dialogue as to reason why. Why don't you mention he dislikes Elisif too?

"I don't think he likes either Ulfric or Elisif much"

There is nothing to suggest he goes against Ulfric over a petty rivalry, in fact he was willing to hear both sides out. Balgruuf went against his own brother for a long time, his brother wanted him to fight the Stormcloaks, he didn't. If he was that petty, he would have joined the Empire right away. Why hear both sides out, if he's biased against Ulfric.

Well at least Ulfric had the decency to let bygones be bygones.

Balgruuf's Housecarl mentions Stormcloak assassins. There is no black and white in this war.

 

[Raijin]

It isn't easy spotting a Vampire if you're not a Mage, or trained Vampire Hunter.

Then many Stormcloak Jarls are incompetent too, since I've had to slay many "Advisors" who were Vampires. They even plan to turn the entire Court and Jarl into Vampires, and you get a bounty if you simply kill them.

I guess Nords simply lack common intelligence? Leave the ruling to the Empire, it seems us Imperials have to do everything... Gold star for effort though. It looks like we need to have the Legion take over, the Nords just aren't ready to rule without us holding their hand.

You don't need to be a mage nor a trained vampire hunter to realize that something is up.
for someone who has been in the court for twenty years yet still have a youthful look to her? And how the cook finds it strange how nobody has even seen her eat... nobody!

You Imperials have to do everything, huh? Care to say that to Nels the Naughty?

From UESP: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Nels_the_Naughty

Nels the Naughty, a Nord barbarian, is a guest at Summitmist Manor in Skingrad. His daughter, Olga, was killed by bandits during a raid on his village in Skyrim and the local garrison of the Imperial Legion did nothing to stop it. For this reason, he dislikes soldiers like Neville and regards them as “useless, uncaring tools of corruption”.

Neville: "So Nord, if you find the gold, what will you spend it on? Wait, let me guess, a sleazy whore and a nice new battleaxe. Am I right?"
Nels: "I’m going to open a tavern. Not that I’d welcome your patronage. No pigs allowed inside you see. You Legion types tend to stink up a place."
Neville: "A Tavern? Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Oh, I should have known! Leave it to a barbarian to spend an entire chest full of gold on beer and mead. How pathetic."
Nels: "You can call me a barbarian. It’s true and I’m proud of the fact. But you call me pathetic again and I’m going to show you just how barbaric I am."
Neville: "With every word you speak you’re just proving me right, Nord. Your kind has contributed nothing to our Empire and never will!"
Nels: "Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! "My kind," as you like to call us are plenty happy serving our own needs while your useless Empire crumbles down around you."
Neville: "Your words border on treason, Nord, and I will not tolerate them! You will respect the Empire! You will respect the memory of our dear Emperor!"
Nels: "Bah! Don’t get your linens in a bunch! You have no authority in this house, or anywhere else! You’re not even in the Legion anymore!"
Neville: "Nevertheless, I still serve the Empire in my heart and will not abide such talk! Walk away from me now, barbarian, or you’ll regret your arrogance!"
Nels: "Pfft. I was done with you anyway. I can only talk to an Ex-Legion pig for so long before my ears start bleeding. Besides, I need a drink! Ha-ha-ha."

Yeah Imperials are so useful that they didn't even bother to do anything about the bandits murdering this poor woman. Nels is right... The Imperials are useless pigs.... not to mention that they're racist too! Just look at this prideful former Imperial soldier, Nelville, just showing his ass. The Imperial legions are full of racist bullies.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You don't need to be a mage nor a trained vampire hunter to realize that something is up.
for someone who has been in the court for twenty years yet still have a youthful look to her? And how the cook finds it strange how nobody has even seen her eat... nobody!

She is Breton and a Mage. Mages are very long lived, and Bretons age very slowly.

You Imperials have to do everything, huh? Care to say that to Nels the Naughty?

A long dead Nord who hated the Septim's Legions?

Yeah Imperials are so useful that they didn't even bother to do anything about the bandits murdering this poor woman. Nels is right... The Imperials are useless pigs.... not to mention that they're racist too! Just look at this prideful former Imperial soldier, Nelville, just showing his ass. The Imperial legions are full of racist bullies.

The Orcs would skin you alive if you spoke like that about the Legion.

"Mine died when I was seven," Mazgar said. "At the sack of Orsinium."
"Who was your mom fightning?"

"Redguards and Bretons"

"I became a soldier because of her. I became an Imperial soldier because if it hadn't been for the Seventh and Fifteenth legions, a lot more of us would have died. They put themselves in harm's way for us, got the survivors to safety in Skyrim."

The Seventh and Fifteenth Imperial legions prevented the utter destruction of Orsinium at the hands of the Bretons and Redguards, leading the survivors to Skyrim.

 

[Raijin]

No, because the reason he gave for Supporting the Empire prior to the Battle of Whiterun was not "Skyrim needs the Empire" it was "I might still be loyal to the Empire". It's also become increasingly clear Balgruuf doesn't want anything to do with the Empire. From bending knee to the Thalmor, to the Empire constantly pestering him about his loyalty, to outlawing Talos worship, and finally for bribing him with chests of gold so that he doesn't rebel himself! He's a Talos worshiper, he hates the Thalmor, and hes at odds with the Empire, not to mention he doesn't claim Ulfric only wants power and believes that he is actually serious about this rebellion. He should be a Stormcloak through and through, and yet, he isn't, and you know goddamn well why he isn't, Mage. It's because of his personal Bias with Ulfric, he doesn't want to see that man on the throne because of their petty little rivalry. Well at least Ulfric had the decency to let bygones be bygones.

The Imperials are too dumb to realize that everyone's favorite Whiterun Jarl is playing the Legion... using them to take care of his rival.... Ulfric Stormcloak.

"And what harm is there in letting a few legionnaires die in place of your own men?" - Proventus

The Imperial legion are nothing but meat shields for Balgruuf the GREATER.

Balgruuf is a sleazy little bastard I give him that.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Yeah Imperials are so useful that they didn't even bother to do anything about the bandits murdering this poor woman. Nels is right... The Imperials are useless pigs.... not to mention that they're racist too! Just look at this prideful former Imperial soldier, Nelville, just showing his ass. The Imperial legions are full of racist bullies.

Where was the Jarl? Where were the Hold Guards? Is the Legion supposed to take over and do their job, undermine the Jarls in their own largely independent Hold? That is their land, and the Legion needs permission.

You Nords are so useful that you can't even protect your citizens, they come running to the Imperials instead. That is why the Legion needs to be in charge, so they can act, instead of waiting for permission by mindless barbarians.

The Imperials are too dumb to realize that everyone's favorite Whiterun Jarl is playing the Legion... using them to take care of his rival.... Ulfric Stormcloak.

"And what harm is there in letting a few legionnaires die in place of your own men?" - Proventus

The Imperial legion are nothing but meat shields for Balgruuf the GREATER.

Balgruuf is a sleazy little bastard I give him that.

Balgruuf: "I'm not the High King, but neither am I a boy. If Ulfric wants to challenge my rule in the old way, let him. Though I suspect he'll prefer to send his "Stormcloaks" to do it for him."

So it is perfectly fine for Ulfric to attack Balgruuf with the combined might of four Holds. But it is cowardly and weak for Balgruuf to get aid from the Legion to bolster his already depleted guard numbers?

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

"If it's the war you're referring to, I'm on the side of Whiterun. No doubt General Tullius and his friends in the Empire will tell you that I owe them my loyalty, and perhaps I do. Ulfric Stormcloak would say that I owe my allegiance to the Nord people as they fight for Skyrim's independence. Perhaps this is also true. The day might come when I am forced to draw my sword for one side or the other. But that day has not come yet."

That's word for word exactly my point,
"No doubt General Tullius and his friends in the Empire will tell you that I owe them my loyalty, and perhaps I do." then after the battle he claimed "And what then? We need the Empire, as much as it needs us. We Nords are the Empire! Our blood built it. Our blood sustains it!" just like he retorts at Vignar, a convenient position to hold now, but why didn't you state that before you actually chose a side, that's a big opinion to have and just ignore like that.

The chests of gold were sent to the Jarls after the signing of the White-Gold Concordat. Reparations for the terms or compensation for the war effort they would have helped paid for when Cyrodiil was mostly lost.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/

Lore:Balgruuf_the_Greater
"Following the White-Gold Concordat, which Balgruuf had no influence in negotiating, he was purportedly given chests of gold and told to accept the terms. However, he continued worshipping Talos privately, and according to Nelkir, hated the Thalmor as passionately as the Stormcloaks."

Ulfric is constantly pestering him too. "The man is persistent, I'll give him that."

Again: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Balgruuf_the_Greater
"Both the Stormcloaks and the Imperial Legion sought to gain Balgruuf as an ally, as Whiterun was prosperous, influential, and strategically located The latter in particular allegedly made a great effort to obtain Balgruuf's loyalty. "
and as you can tell, Tulius is clearly getting on his nerves

"Oh, yes? I wonder what that old busybody wants now. Whatever it is, it will have to wait until after I've finished dealing with this dragon situation."

"No doubt requesting to garrison his men in my castle. How many times must I deny him? Well? Out with it."

So he's like many within the Empire?

Yes... many Stormcloaks
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Balgruuf_the_Greater
"Following the White-Gold Concordat, which Balgruuf had no influence in negotiating, he was purportedly given chests of gold and told to accept the terms. However, he continued worshipping Talos privately, and according to Nelkir, hated the Thalmor as passionately as the Stormcloaks."

So if he had personal bias against Ulfric, why does he claim Ulfric is after power and his rebellion is false, why doesn't he join the Rebellion right off. Balgruuf doesn't like Elisif or Ulfric. But, you're using a personal bias yourself using only one piece of dialogue as to reason why. Why don't you mention he dislikes Elisif too?

Because he doesn't just "dislike" Ulfric like he "dislikes" Elisif. He abhors Ulfric with a fiery passion. That gives him as much reason as any to walk away from the cause and think about it.

There is nothing to suggest he goes against Ulfric over a petty rivalry

There is so much to suggest that that your post doesn't even seem remotely in reality

in fact he was willing to hear both sides out. Balgruuf went against his own brother for a long time, his brother wanted him to fight the Stormcloaks, he didn't. If he was that petty, he would have joined the Empire right away. Why hear both sides out, if he's biased against Ulfric.

I just explained it to you in full, The Stormcloaks present the side that appeals to him in every single way except for the fact that they want Ulfric on the throne. When Ulfric finally challenged his honor it pushed him immediately on the side of the Empire.

 

[DrunkenMage]

That's word for word exactly my point,
"No doubt General Tullius and his friends in the Empire will tell you that I owe them my loyalty, and perhaps I do." then after the battle he claimed "And what then? We need the Empire, as much as it needs us. We Nords are the Empire! Our blood built it. Our blood sustains it!" just like he retorts at Vignar, a convenient position to hold now, but why didn't you state that before you actually chose a side, that's a big opinion to have and just ignore like that.

He made up his mind, and sticks by it strongly. Exactly my original point.

"Following the White-Gold Concordat, which Balgruuf had no influence in negotiating, he was purportedly given chests of gold and told to accept the terms. However, he continued worshipping Talos privately, and according to Nelkir, hated the Thalmor as passionately as the Stormcloaks."

The Empire would not have sent chests of gold to one Jarl. If they did, then good on Balgruuf for making the Empire pay up.

Again: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Balgruuf_the_Greater
"Both the Stormcloaks and the Imperial Legion sought to gain Balgruuf as an ally, as Whiterun was prosperous, influential, and strategically located The latter in particular allegedly made a great effort to obtain Balgruuf's loyalty. "
and as you can tell, Tulius is clearly getting on his nerves

"Oh, yes? I wonder what that old busybody wants now. Whatever it is, it will have to wait until after I've finished dealing with this dragon situation."

"No doubt requesting to garrison his men in my castle. How many times must I deny him? Well? Out with it."

So the Legion goes to great efforts to secure Whiterun and Balgruuf's loyalty. While Ulfric and the Stormcloaks sat around with their thumb up their arses, going "He'll come around".

Are you making a case for the Stormcloaks, or showing how the Legion is doing whatever it takes to achieve victory?

Yes... many Stormcloaks
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Balgruuf_the_Greater
"Following the White-Gold Concordat, which Balgruuf had no influence in negotiating, he was purportedly given chests of gold and told to accept the terms. However, he continued worshipping Talos privately, and according to Nelkir, hated the Thalmor as passionately as the Stormcloaks."

Except many Imperial supporters also worship Talos, and indeed hate the Thalmor passionately.

Because he doesn't just "dislike" Ulfric like he "dislikes" Elisif. He abhors Ulfric with a fiery passion. That gives him as much reason as any to walk away from the cause and think about it.

Balgruuf claimed to be neutral, saying he was only "on the side of Whiterun". He refused to allow the Legion to garrison troops in the city, and he refused to acknowledge Ulfric's claim to the position of High King. - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Balgruuf_the_Greater

There is so much to suggest that that your post doesn't even seem remotely in reality

No there isn't, there is only one piece of dialogue from Gerdur in which she also says she would find it hard to believe he would do that.

I just explained it to you in full, The Stormcloaks present the side that appeals to him in every single way except for the fact that they want Ulfric on the throne. When Ulfric finally challenged his honor it pushed him immediately on the side of the Empire.

Tullius also despised the Thalmor, and believed the Stormcloak Rebellion was a mere interlude in the Empire's real conflict with the Aldmeri Dominion, even going so far as to remark that they almost made him want to throw in with the Stormcloaks. - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tullius

The Stormcloaks appeal to several who fight for the Empire... Now if Balgruuf hated Ulfric deeply, enough to side against him for the sake of it. Why give the Stormcloaks an equal chance? You're not explaining that. Why would a man who hates Ulfric, give Ulfric's rebellion, Ulfric's cause and Ulfric's army which is named after Ulfric a chance?

I don't see your reasoning. He hates Ulfric, but he's not speaking badly about him until he sides with the Empire. Yet you used that as evidence as to why he hates Ulfric, but doesn't hate the Stormcloaks whom are sworn to Ulfric, created by Ulfric, and do Ulfric's bidding.

Except for the fact they want Ulfric on the throne... You're right, because that is merely tyranny. He would be forced to vote for Ulfric, because Ulfric and the Stormcloaks won't take no for an answer. He doesn't have to vote for Elisif, her fate remains uncertain under Imperial rule.

Replacing one oppression with another. He had no say for the White-Gold Concordat, he'd have no say under the Stormcloaks. Keeping the status quo is logical.

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric Stormcloak
"Yes, my lord." - Galmar/Vignar

"Ulfric has made it clear. In his mind, to refuse his claim is to side with the Empire."

 

[Raijin]

Where was the Jarl? Where were the Hold Guards? Is the Legion supposed to take over and do their job, undermine the Jarls in their own largely independent Hold? That is their land, and the Legion needs permission.

You Nords are so useful that you can't even protect your citizens, they come running to the Imperials instead. That is why the Legion needs to be in charge, so they can act, instead of waiting for permission by mindless barbarians.

Sight.. just as I expected from you Imperials. Always avoiding the responsibility pointing the blame at someone else. The fact is the local garrison of the Imperial Legion did nothing to stop the bandits from murdering her during a raid in her village. Enough said.

Balgruuf

: "I'm not the High King, but neither am I a boy. If Ulfric wants to challenge my rule in the old way, let him. Though I suspect he'll prefer to send his "Stormcloaks" to do it for him."

So it is perfectly fine for Ulfric to attack Balgruuf with the combined might of four Holds. But it is cowardly and weak for Balgruuf to get aid from the Legion to bolster his already depleted guard numbers?

That's real funny considering the fact that Ulfric did challenge his ruling in the old way, by sending him his axe... and when he returned it he freaked the (bleep) out and wrote a letter to General Tullius for help. Why is that anyways? Why did this man chickened out? Why didn't he accepted the responsibilities from his course of actions, and faced the Stormcloaks with his guards alone?

The fact to the matter is he badmouthed the Imperial legion right in front of a legate... who was there to AID him in battle that he himself had caused.

Balgruuf: "My men are fearless. It's the Imperial milk drinkers I'm worried about."
Quentin: "If you prefer I took my men and left..."

So my Imperial friend, Drunkenmage. Why do you insist of defending this man? The quote you used is irrelevant and very contradicting.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Sight.. just as I expected from you Imperials. Always avoiding the responsibility pointing the blame at someone else. The fact is the local garrison of the Imperial Legion did nothing to stop the bandits from murdering her during a raid in her village. Enough said.

Over two hundred years ago, a single local garrison of Legionaries didn't do anything when bandits raided a Nord village.

One day the Imperial Legion did nothing. One day out of 678 years, the Imperial Legion didn't respond to bandits. So therefor, because of that single day out of 247,634 days. The Imperial Legion is bad and useless? Seems legit.

That's real funny considering the fact that Ulfric did challenge his ruling in the old way, by sending him his axe... and when he returned it he freaked the (bleep) out and wrote a letter to General Tullius for help.

Why does Ulfric return the axe? Telling you to "expect visitors". Could have faced him one on one like a true Jarl seeking to become the High King.

Why is that anyways? Why did this man chickened out? Why didn't he accepted the responsibilities from his course of actions, and faced the Stormcloaks with his guards alone?

So he should have faced the combined army of four Holds, alone? Balgruuf is known for not having patience, not stupidity. Why didn't Ulfric take on the Empire with just Windhelm's guards alone?

The fact to the matter is he badmouthed the Imperial legion right in front of a legate... who was there to AID him in battle that he himself had caused.

So my Imperial friend, Drunkenmage. Why do you insist of defending this man? The quote you used is irrelevant and very contradicting.

He called us "milkdrinkers", break out the violin. It is you Stormcloaks that get all butthurt when Tullius doesn't know the name of Sovngarde or when he calls you lawless barbarians.

 

[General Charles Xander]

I'm of a mind with Irel- I mean Mage. I can't find any evidence suggesting Balgruuf has poisonous thoughts and attitudes towards Ulfric before the Seige of Whiterun.

These are the following quotes I could find in which Jarl Balgruuf mentions Ulfric:
" No doubt General Tullius and his friends in the Empire will tell you that I owe them my loyalty, and perhaps I do. Ulfric Stormcloak would say that I owe my allegiance to the Nord people as they fight for Skyrim's independence. Perhaps this is also true. The day might come when I am forced to draw my sword for one side or the other. But that day has not come yet."

"No doubt he thought it was the only way to make his point. And also because he knew he could."

Balgruuf: "I'm not a fool, Proventus. I mean it's time to challenge Ulfric to face me as a man, or to declare his intentions."

Balgruuf: "I'm not the High King, but neither am I a boy. If Ulfric wants to challenge my rule in the old way, let him. Though I suspect he'll prefer to send his "Stormcloaks" to do it for him."

You there. I have a message for you to deliver to our friend, the esteemed Jarl of Windhelm. Deliver this axe to Ulfric Stormcloak."

"How long have you been in Skyrim? Yes. Give the man my axe. If he returns it to you it means we have business to settle. If he keeps it, then we are at peace."

"Men who understand one another need not waste words. There are but a few simple truths behind one warrior giving another his axe. Ulfric will know my meaning."

"True, he's a dangerous and blood thirsty man, but he's also a Nord that honors our traditions. Keep your wits about you and you won't be harmed. And then get back here. Because if Ulfric isn't bluffing, I'll need every able body to defend Whiterun."

That's all I've got. Nothing in here suggest siding with the Empire as a result of personal bias. He's just defending himself.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Did some digging in the game files.

"But imagine -- fleets of ships sailing from Windhelm, all bearing the Stormcloak flag! It would be glorious!"

You stupid bastards, you're all going to die.

 

[Dradin]

"But imagine -- fleets of ships sailing from Windhelm, all bearing the Stormcloak flag! It would be glorious!"

I assume it's refering to Alinor.

No one has successfully invaded tye Summerset Isle. Even Tiber Septim required the power of Numidium to seize it and absorb it into the Empire.

There is probably now way of defeating the Thalmor in an offensive war. The geographical locations of Valenwood, Anequina, Pellitine and Alinor all make it extremely defensible. Not only that but it's denziens are some of the most skilled races in the game. The stout wood ships of the Nords would shine and burn.

The Empire is needed to protect the rest of Tamriel from an elven incursion. Skyrim cannot do it alone. That is the inherit flaw in Ulfric's vision, if you in fact dismiss his ego.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

"But imagine -- fleets of ships sailing from Windhelm, all bearing the Stormcloak flag! It would be glorious!"

 

[DrunkenMage]

"With me, you kill Skyrim's last hope. Mark my words. You'll all be serving elven masters soon. And know then, that I would have stopped them." - Ulfric Stormcloak

Such vanity... He believes he's Skyrim's last hope and that only he can stop the Thalmor.

His ego will be the death of you all.

"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius to Ulfric Stormcloak.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

"With me, you kill Skyrim's last hope. Mark my words. You'll all be serving elven masters soon. And know then, that I would have stopped them." - Ulfric Stormcloak

Such vanity... He believes he's Skyrim's last hope and that only he can stop the Thalmor.

His ego will be the death of you all.

"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius to Ulfric Stormcloak.

Oh my god. So it's ok for Tullius to say essentially the exact same thing to Ulfric, Galmar and you but not ok to for there to be some obscure quote that as far as I know isn't even in the game?

And Tullius is sacrificing the natives and resources of a land he's not even from.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Oh my god. So it's ok for Tullius to say essentially the exact same thing to Ulfric, Galmar and you but not ok to for there to be some obscure quote that as far as I know isn't even in the game?

And Tullius is sacrificing the natives and resources of a land he's not even from.

Sorry, what? Did you even read those few lines? Ulfric states he's Skyrim's last hope. Tullius never said "without me you'll all die", he accuses Ulfric of getting people killed just because of his daddy-issues/ego, which frankly you can't deny.

Sorry but at the point where the Stormcloaks plan to sail for Alinor, this discussion was done. Imperials > Stormcloaks, 'cause you have to be totally drunk to make a move against Tamriel's top fleet when you don't even bring mages aboard.
Which is pretty bad considering a good mage can set your ship alight from a distance.

In truth, Sotha Sil could have exploded the vessel with but a single ball of fire, but he chose to take his time, to give the crew a chance to dive off into the warm water. When he was certain there was no one living aboard, he focused his energy into a destructive wave that shook the air and water as it discharged. The ship and the Duke's payment to the Morag Tong sunk to the bottom of the Inner Sea.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Oh my god. So it's ok for Tullius to say essentially the exact same thing to Ulfric, Galmar and you but not ok to for there to be some obscure quote that as far as I know isn't even in the game?

And Tullius is sacrificing the natives and resources of a land he's not even from.

Sorry, what? Did you even read those few lines? Ulfric states he's Skyrim's last hope. Tullius never said "without me you'll all die", he accuses Ulfric of getting people killed just because of his daddy-issues/ego, which frankly you can't deny.

Sorry but at the point where the Stormcloaks plan to sail for Alinor, this discussion was done. Imperials > Stormcloaks, 'cause you have to be totally drunk to make a move against Tamriel's top fleet when you don't even bring mages aboard.
Which is pretty bad considering a good mage can set your ship alight from a distance.

In truth, Sotha Sil could have exploded the vessel with but a single ball of fire, but he chose to take his time, to give the crew a chance to dive off into the warm water. When he was certain there was no one living aboard, he focused his energy into a destructive wave that shook the air and water as it discharged. The ship and the Duke's payment to the Morag Tong sunk to the bottom of the Inner Sea.

First of all, you've been digging up stuff that's not even in the game. That's sketchy at best. Second of all (I'm referring to Tullius' last words because I'm guessing that what Mage's quote was supposed to be) Tullius tells him a victorious rebellion is what the Thalmor want (which is actually false). The quote from Ulfric is a bit more straightforward but they're both saying the same thing. Ulfric's ACTUAL final words are a bit classier.

*sigh* there's a lot more to it than "lulz ulfric and teh dovahkiin get on a boat and kill all the thalmor". And I didn't realize the Dominion was now employing Tribunal members. Anyway not to sound dismissive but I'm getting tired of writing half a page everyday for this thread so I'm gonna step back for a bit. Might chime in once in a while still but for the most part I'll take a break.