Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[General Charles Xander]

{Whose standpoint? Stormcloaks are effectively the weakest link. You are sheep who will follow anyone who says the words you want to hear. An Imperial must question things yet at the same time deal with the things he cannot change in his heart.}

Just like the captain at Helgen....

 

[General Charles Xander]

From a moral standpoint, there is no justification in allowing your people to be taken from their homes and possibly killed just because they worship a god the enemy despises.

Did that picture even show? Anyways, people seemed to have gotten along just fine with worshiping in secret....until Ulfric. Besides, the Thalmor had an embassy, but it wasn't until Ulfric and the "Markarth Incident" did they finally have an excuse to settle in Skyrim.

It doesn't matter, the dominion was working toward that, they were working in primarly Cyrodiil, fortifying the Valenwood and Elsweyr border, and wrapping things up in Hammerfell. The dominion was also exhausted from the war, they likely weren't able to heavily enforce the WGC anyways until the rebellion.

How did they enforce the treaty when they had no proof of violation? Only until Ulfric "showed up" did they have their proof.

 

[General Charles Xander]

From a moral standpoint, there is no justification in allowing your people to be taken from their homes and possibly killed just because they worship a god the enemy despises.

Whose standpoint? Stormcloaks are effectively the weakest link. You are sheep who will follow anyone who says the words you want to hear. An Imperial must question things yet at the same time deal with the things he cannot change in his heart.

Furthermore, whether it be Empire or Stormcloak rule neither are pillars of good morality. Your morality argument falls apart when we begin to consider all the unethical pl*ps that both Empire and Nords have done over the years.

It's not at all about morality, Stormcloaks defend Ulfric's every move past & present and virtually none of them critique Ulfric either so let's be honest with ourselves here shall we?

I am not justifying the actions, just pointing out, letting something happen, even if you question it quietly is morally wrong. At least the stormcloaks are fighting for what they believe.

Is it wrong that I pray every night before I go to bed? Or should I go outside and yell "Praise Jesus!" to the neighbors? That would be a violation of the law for "Public indecency and disturbance". Against the law, against the law.......Sounds familiar.

 

[LegateFasendil]

"If one man doomed the world, another man can un-doom it."

The Imperial Dragonknight in that vid I posted is one example... he was an Emperor of house Daggerfall who single-handedly took on the entire AD on one server. (In other words, he wiped out all AD on that server, the front lines, the re-enforcements, all of them) If one Imperial "Dragonborn" can do this all virtually be himself, there is no reason why the WGC couldn't be overturned.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

{Whose standpoint? Stormcloaks are effectively the weakest link. You are sheep who will follow anyone who says the words you want to hear. An Imperial must question things yet at the same time deal with the things he cannot change in his heart.}

Just like the captain at Helgen....

No. You cannot possibly justify an execution without a trial. Even Ulfric should have been taken back to the Imperial City. And karma got them for that, because if they had Ulfric wouldn't have escaped and they would have won the war.

 

[General Charles Xander]

{Whose standpoint? Stormcloaks are effectively the weakest link. You are sheep who will follow anyone who says the words you want to hear. An Imperial must question things yet at the same time deal with the things he cannot change in his heart.}

Just like the captain at Helgen....

No. You cannot possibly justify an execution without a trial. Even Ulfric should have been taken back to the Imperial City. And karma got them for that, because if they had Ulfric wouldn't have escaped and they would have won the war.

That's my point. But Tullius did the smart thing and tried to execute him right then. If not, well, that's up in the air. Some could say that the Thalmor would have somehow released Ulfric if they continued, others would say that it's fate that they stopped their because the Elder Scrolls foretold it. Either way.

 

[Jeremius]

Whose standpoint? Stormcloaks are effectively the weakest link. You are sheep who will follow anyone who says the words you want to hear. An Imperial must question things yet at the same time deal with the things he cannot change in his heart.

Furthermore, whether it be Empire or Stormcloak rule neither are pillars of good morality. Your morality argument falls apart when we begin to consider all the unethical pl*ps that both Empire and Nords have done over the years.

It's not at all about morality, Stormcloaks defend Ulfric's every move past & present and virtually none of them critique Ulfric either so let's be honest with ourselves here shall we?

I am not justifying the actions, just pointing out, letting something happen, even if you question it quietly is morally wrong. At least the stormcloaks are fighting for what they believe.

Is it wrong that I pray every night before I go to bed? Or should I go outside and yell "Praise Jesus!" to the neighbors? That would be a violation of the law for "Public indecency and disturbance". Against the law, against the law.......Sounds familiar.

If someone takes you or your family away for violating a law that says "you cannot pray to/worship this god", then that is morally wrong. If you are allowed to pray and worship however you want, then there nothing wrong.

that is the what the Empire is allowing to happen. The Empire lets the Thalmor take people away just for praying to a god the people want. There is even a Justiciar who wants you VIOLATE THE PRIVACY of someone in an IMPERIAL hold to get evidence to "arrest" said person.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

1. Germany didn't have the ability to create fire at their fingertips...
2. If they successfully took Skyrim, that would be leaving the Empire. I'm not saying they would, but it would be a nice opportunity to weaken your enemies forces no?
3. A Legion is waiting at the Pale Pass.....

1. Not all the Aldmeri are skilled mages. Regardless, Skyrim still has home-field advantage. The common Aldmeri soldier isn't a heartless, emotionless killing machine. They're far from Alinor, freezing, and up against fur-clad, battle-axe wielding, war-paint adorned screaming hulks, who are right at home.
2. Skyrim and Cyrodiil aren't enemies. Ulfric refuses to attack Solitude during the Emporer's visit. The rebellion is to allow Nords to live the way they wish, if you're familiar with Redguard, their rebellion there is to ensure they are treated better by the empire, not to overthrow the them or completely sever ties. And why would Cyrodiil sandwich themselves between the Dominion and Skyrim? I must be missing something here.
3. How do you know? If this assuming Bruma's fallen, why are they standing around at Pale Pass, I'd be um, I don't know, fighting the dominion? Also Pale Pass is a mess at the moment, avalanches and such.

1. The Russians had Home field advantage. The Germans had home field advantage. The ROMANS had homefield advantage too. Home field advantage =/= victory.
2. This is all speculation. However if Skyrim was gone from the Empire and you had some or most of the enimies force outside your door fighting the Thalmor who you would have no idea of their intentions, wouldn't you want to kill 2 birds with 1 stone?
3. Adding to the speculation, If I was in charge of the Legion at the Pale Pass and Bruma was being attacked, I would have them hit from behind like the Stormcloaks would do. That would be perfect for a sandwich.

1. Maybe so, but coming straight from the sunny Summerset Isles to the frozen tundras of Skyrim can't be good for your army.
2. Their intentions are pretty clear, kill the Thalmor. The Thalmor have been pretty much the sole reason for pretty much everything for a long time. Skyrim doesn't care about ruling Cyrodiil, and Cyrodiil making an enemy out of Skyrim hypothetically during the second Great War makes absolutely no sense from a strategic standpoint. Maybe years down the line if the dominion has been overthrown they could try to re-conquer Skyrim, but not for a long while.
3. I don't really get what you're saying here, Bruma is gone, Pale Pass is pretty much not passable, and the Dominion is in Cyrodiil. Guarding the snowed-in border because potentially an army is coming to fight your invaders? I don't follow.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Did that picture even show? Anyways, people seemed to have gotten along just fine with worshiping in secret....until Ulfric. Besides, the Thalmor had an embassy, but it wasn't until Ulfric and the "Markarth Incident" did they finally have an excuse to settle in Skyrim.

It doesn't matter, the dominion was working toward that, they were working in primarly Cyrodiil, fortifying the Valenwood and Elsweyr border, and wrapping things up in Hammerfell. The dominion was also exhausted from the war, they likely weren't able to heavily enforce the WGC anyways until the rebellion.

How did they enforce the treaty when they had no proof of violation? Only until Ulfric "showed up" did they have their proof.

I'm not gonna rely on the Dominion to wait for proof before making an arrest. They aren't idiots, they know Talos was still being worshipped.

 

[General Charles Xander]

I am not justifying the actions, just pointing out, letting something happen, even if you question it quietly is morally wrong. At least the stormcloaks are fighting for what they believe.

Is it wrong that I pray every night before I go to bed? Or should I go outside and yell "Praise Jesus!" to the neighbors? That would be a violation of the law for "Public indecency and disturbance". Against the law, against the law.......Sounds familiar.

If someone takes you or your family away for violating a law that says "you cannot pray to/worship this god", then that is morally wrong. If you are allowed to pray and worship however you want, then there nothing wrong.

that is the what the Empire is allowing to happen. The Empire lets the Thalmor take people away just for praying to a god the people want. There is even a Justiciar who wants you VIOLATE THE PRIVACY of someone in an IMPERIAL hold to get evidence to "arrest" said person.

Who gave them an excuse to come in hmmm? Also that Justiciar wants YOU to do it. He says that he has been asking the Jarl about it, but the Jarl has been "busy". Therefor he asks you to do it, because in their defense, they didn't do it, you did.

 

[LegateFasendil]

I am not justifying the actions, just pointing out, letting something happen, even if you question it quietly is morally wrong. At least the stormcloaks are fighting for what they believe.

Is it wrong that I pray every night before I go to bed? Or should I go outside and yell "Praise Jesus!" to the neighbors? That would be a violation of the law for "Public indecency and disturbance". Against the law, against the law.......Sounds familiar.

If someone takes you or your family away for violating a law that says "you cannot pray to/worship this god", then that is morally wrong. If you are allowed to pray and worship however you want, then there nothing wrong.

that is the what the Empire is allowing to happen. The Empire lets the Thalmor take people away just for praying to a god the people want. There is even a Justiciar who wants you VIOLATE THE PRIVACY of someone in an IMPERIAL hold to get evidence to "arrest" said person.

Ok then so what's the moral diff between being carted off because someone doesn't like your religion and then someone else willfully bringing down your kingdom, subjugating your people and enslaving your family in Sidna mine to raise awareness for his cause?

And don't say the Empire made him do it either, that was between the Jarl and Ulfric. In fact, Gen Tully sends in a point man in order to put a stop to what's going on in Cidna mine. Ulfric tortured the women and children of the men who fought for Freedom in the Reach, with the remnant escaping into the hills. Leg Rikke even demands the Stormcloaks answer for the "Massacre of Karthwastern" at Season Unending.

Also, heh, why in hell would you allow them to take your family away in the first place? I wouldn't. I would be dead and so would several Thalmor.

 

[Jeremius]

Who gave them an excuse to come in hmmm? Also that Justiciar wants YOU to do it. He says that he has been asking the Jarl about it, but the Jarl has been "busy". Therefor he asks you to do it, because in their defense, they didn't do it, you did.

They would not have been allowed to do it without the WGC. No matter the excuse, the WGC gave the the power. No power, no problems.

 

[General Charles Xander]

1. Not all the Aldmeri are skilled mages. Regardless, Skyrim still has home-field advantage. The common Aldmeri soldier isn't a heartless, emotionless killing machine. They're far from Alinor, freezing, and up against fur-clad, battle-axe wielding, war-paint adorned screaming hulks, who are right at home.
2. Skyrim and Cyrodiil aren't enemies. Ulfric refuses to attack Solitude during the Emporer's visit. The rebellion is to allow Nords to live the way they wish, if you're familiar with Redguard, their rebellion there is to ensure they are treated better by the empire, not to overthrow the them or completely sever ties. And why would Cyrodiil sandwich themselves between the Dominion and Skyrim? I must be missing something here.
3. How do you know? If this assuming Bruma's fallen, why are they standing around at Pale Pass, I'd be um, I don't know, fighting the dominion? Also Pale Pass is a mess at the moment, avalanches and such.

1. The Russians had Home field advantage. The Germans had home field advantage. The ROMANS had homefield advantage too. Home field advantage =/= victory.
2. This is all speculation. However if Skyrim was gone from the Empire and you had some or most of the enimies force outside your door fighting the Thalmor who you would have no idea of their intentions, wouldn't you want to kill 2 birds with 1 stone?
3. Adding to the speculation, If I was in charge of the Legion at the Pale Pass and Bruma was being attacked, I would have them hit from behind like the Stormcloaks would do. That would be perfect for a sandwich.

1. Maybe so, but coming straight from the sunny Summerset Isles to the frozen tundras of Skyrim can't be good for your army.
2. Their intentions are pretty clear, kill the Thalmor. The Thalmor have been pretty much the sole reason for pretty much everything for a long time. Skyrim doesn't care about ruling Cyrodiil, and Cyrodiil making an enemy out of Skyrim hypothetically during the second Great War makes absolutely no sense from a strategic standpoint. Maybe years down the line if the dominion has been overthrown they could try to re-conquer Skyrim, but not for a long while.
3. I don't really get what you're saying here, Bruma is gone, Pale Pass is pretty much not passable, and the Dominion is in Cyrodiil. Guarding the snowed-in border because potentially an army is coming to fight your invaders? I don't follow.

This all speculation, so I'm going to move on. Good points though.

 

[General Charles Xander]

Who gave them an excuse to come in hmmm? Also that Justiciar wants YOU to do it. He says that he has been asking the Jarl about it, but the Jarl has been "busy". Therefor he asks you to do it, because in their defense, they didn't do it, you did.

They would not have been allowed to do it without the WGC. No matter the excuse, the WGC gave the the power. No power, no problems.

I like how you avoided my response about the Justiciar. Anyways tell me, why was there only a few Thalmor in the embassy before Ulfric came into play?

 

[LegateFasendil]

Who gave them an excuse to come in hmmm? Also that Justiciar wants YOU to do it. He says that he has been asking the Jarl about it, but the Jarl has been "busy". Therefor he asks you to do it, because in their defense, they didn't do it, you did.

They would not have been allowed to do it without the WGC. No matter the excuse, the WGC gave the the power. No power, no problems.

I like how you avoided my response about the Justiciar. Anyways tell me, why was there only a few Thalmor in the embassy before Ulfric came into play?

Because the Thalmor needed a point man...

 

[General Charles Xander]

They would not have been allowed to do it without the WGC. No matter the excuse, the WGC gave the the power. No power, no problems.

I like how you avoided my response about the Justiciar. Anyways tell me, why was there only a few Thalmor in the embassy before Ulfric came into play?

Because the Thalmor needed a point man...

*Septimus's voice*

INDEED!

 

[TheQahnaarin]

{Whose standpoint? Stormcloaks are effectively the weakest link. You are sheep who will follow anyone who says the words you want to hear. An Imperial must question things yet at the same time deal with the things he cannot change in his heart.}

Just like the captain at Helgen....

No. You cannot possibly justify an execution without a trial. Even Ulfric should have been taken back to the Imperial City. And karma got them for that, because if they had Ulfric wouldn't have escaped and they would have won the war.

That's my point. But Tullius did the smart thing and tried to execute him right then. If not, well, that's up in the air. Some could say that the Thalmor would have somehow released Ulfric if they continued, others would say that it's fate that they stopped their because the Elder Scrolls foretold it. Either way.

I don't know what Tullius was thinking. If the Thalmor really wanted to free Ulfric at Helgen they probably could have, but it probably wouldn't have been able to do it very discreetly and decided they had squeezed as much as they could out of the civil war and would let it go. Tullius could have killed Ulfric right on the spot at Darkwater Crossing, without having to parade Ulfric around and show off how great a general he is or something. Anyways, that pretty much shows me how corrupt and incompetent the current Empire is, as they have screwed pretty much everything they possibly could have up.

 

[Jeremius]

They would not have been allowed to do it without the WGC. No matter the excuse, the WGC gave the the power. No power, no problems.

I like how you avoided my response about the Justiciar. Anyways tell me, why was there only a few Thalmor in the embassy before Ulfric came into play?

Because the Thalmor needed a point man...

The thalmor only used Ulfric to demand power for their control over the ban. the Empire allowed them to have it by accepting the orders the Thalmor gave. All of this could have gone away if the Empire made Skyrim less of a province, and more of an ally of the Empire.

 

[LegateFasendil]

I like how you avoided my response about the Justiciar. Anyways tell me, why was there only a few Thalmor in the embassy before Ulfric came into play?

Because the Thalmor needed a point man...

The thalmor only used Ulfric to demand power for their control over the ban. the Empire allowed them to have it by accepting the orders the Thalmor gave. All of this could have gone away if the Empire made Skyrim less of a province, and more of an ally of the Empire.

As a Federated ally you mean? Yes, that could have worked. Though we will never know because Ulfric chose a different road. An ally implies a sort of friendship, Ulfric doesn't want to be friends.

 

[LegateFasendil]

No. You cannot possibly justify an execution without a trial. Even Ulfric should have been taken back to the Imperial City. And karma got them for that, because if they had Ulfric wouldn't have escaped and they would have won the war.

That's my point. But Tullius did the smart thing and tried to execute him right then. If not, well, that's up in the air. Some could say that the Thalmor would have somehow released Ulfric if they continued, others would say that it's fate that they stopped their because the Elder Scrolls foretold it. Either way.

I don't know what Tullius was thinking. If the Thalmor really wanted to free Ulfric at Helgen they probably could have, but it probably wouldn't have been able to do it very discreetly and decided they had squeezed as much as they could out of the civil war and would let it go. Tullius could have killed Ulfric right on the spot at Darkwater Crossing, without having to parade Ulfric around and show off how great a general he is or something. Anyways, that pretty much shows me how corrupt and incompetent the current Empire is, as they have screwed pretty much everything they possibly could have up.

Go easy on the situation at Helgen. In the game files, Gen Tully's dialogue is missing however Elenwen's reaction is not. She reacts almost hostile to Gen Tullius refusing her demands. This is the conv on the way inside Helgen gate mind you.

Gen Tully is a good man. He is torn however, between the various forces at work in Skyrim. What probably happened, you know what I think happened? They were taking Ulfric to Cyrodil to answer to the Emperor until someone got word to him the Thalmor were waiting in route at Helgen. At that point, like he said, "Let's just get this over with". Whether he knew for certain the Thalmor were waiting to take custody of Ulfric or not, I feel like that was his thinking.

The Empire unfort, takes prisoners. So, if Ulfric surrendered, then Gen Tully had to accept. Yet, Ulfric would not allow Gen Tully to surrender. This does not mean however, the Empire can't still conduct a summary execution under martial law. It's all about the law and a General's position is very political.