General Charles Xander
General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Hmmm, I guess the message didn't get erased.... weird.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Regarding shady deals, it is unlikely he'd know about that. If you can show me other figures that Silver-Bloods spared...
Helps if you look at the right page...
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Forsworn
Many historical volumes in TES are written by "people who weren't there" yet you accept them?
I could throw up the Khajiit lore page and go on about how nothing mentions the slaughter of innocent civilians, including children during the Tiber Wars.
Unless you have someone saying "Those executions didn't happen" or another book contradicting. People not speaking about it doesn't mean plops. We know for certain people were getting executed for being associated with the Forsworn.
"The Nords didn't care who was and who wasn't involved in the Forsworn Uprising." - Braig
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Mikulas Black-Blade
The Cave Bear
That was kind of my point Charles, I was saying you took the quote out of context, to make it look like the lore page had stated that. Also, "as" is appropriate conjugation to merge Arrianus' claim to the statement provided, because "as" is synonymous with "because" meaning they were saying that Arrianus claimed that Ulfric committed these atrocities. On the topic of words and wordplay and such is Xander pronounced with a "Z" sound or more like an "Sh" I'm assuming "Z"
Actually I provided your analogy with an analogy of my own.
Right, okay, uhh tell me something, how many Barbarians live in proper villages and make due on businesses, or live in cities and do the same or houses in the woods that they built. If you're referring to the class "Barbarian" then I guess I'd have to agree with you, although there are definitely more Warrior Nords in Skyrim. Tulius certainly wasn't.
Yep, I read "Adolf Hitler" too. Tell me something, are you aware that Judaism is a RELIGION and that to seem like you aren't Jewish you would have to HIDE YOUR RELIGION and the only way to be Jewish is if you're of the Jewish faith because they're an ETHNORELIGIOUS group of people meaning that to be a Jew you have to be of the Jewish faith. I never said Hitler killed them for their religion, I'm saying they were hunted for it. Whats the best way to tell if someone's a Jew? Figure out his/her belief system. They weren't visually identifiable if that's what you're suggesting.
Why? I'm not generalizing Nords half of them obviously behave this way. Pride counts to the Nords when they're dead, because if you don't die staring death in the face, guess where you're not going? Sovngarde, the most sought after place in all of Nordic society. Y'know for someone who claims to be a Nord you don't seem to know a lot about your main character's culture. Just an observation.
Okay I explained the Nord part already, the Stormcloaks clearly think this way, I'm not generalizing I'm observing, and learning about, the people that are my favorite TES race. As for the Shrines, did you really just say that? Well not everybody has a shrine in their house, you built your house and built some shrines so you have shrines, Most people don't have shrines in their home, and can't receive blessings. Also I'm pretty sure the Shrine working just fine is because of player convenience. You'd most likely have to get that blessed by a priest. And guess what, those Shrines are being watched by the Thalmor. Need proof, here you go:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Elisif's_Tribute
He said this "What the rebels like to forget, is that the Empire is the only thing keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim." meanwhile this is happening everyday:
They may not be the whole Dominion, but they're representing them pretty well. Are you saying you don't know about all of the people that were kidnapped for worshiping Talos? secretly by the way. Pretty much one of the main reasons the Stormcloaks are fighting?
You said "I guess they asked for the permission of the Jarl to kidnap all of those people, right?" When we were/are still on the subject of Markarth and the facts on Ondolemar's mission. Saying something like that makes it very confusing.[/quote]
Well then I'm sorry, but please answer the question: Do you still think the Thalmor really need the Jarl's permission to do this?
I believe it was your 2nd post in this argument. It should about 1 page away.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
About the shrines, common folk don't get blessings. Far as I can recall, blessings for people have to come from major rituals, and are few and far between.
"We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos." - Alvor
"We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos." - Alvor
Brawnysilverfox
New Member
I always tend to side with the imperials. Not for any particular political reason, I just cant help disliking ulfric stormcloak....I find him to be arrogant and self-centered 
Lewsean
Member
No we don't know for certain. You just say it's certain because it's written in a book aimed at discrediting the Stormcloaks. Another bunch of pages of Imperial Loyalist pulling 'facts' out of thin air and people repeating what Drunkmage writes because they can't think for them selves.. *sigh*
Ondolemar
Member
Question for you. Why, is it so bad to hear the Imperials side of the Markarth Incident? I mean, the Empire didn't make the deal with Ulfric they were left with the bill once the new Jarl decided he'd rather turn the city over to the Empire as opposed to facing the Thalmor. So, we hear the Stormcloaks side of everything, I would think the Imperials version of events should be just as important.
Of course, that's prob one reason why ya'll can't get along
Lewsean
Member
I can accept anything that is proven with facts, not a book written purely for propoganda purposes due to the result of Imperial cowardice and betrayal during the Markarth Incident. They had to make it look like what they did to Ulfric and his Militia was justified, easiest way to do that is to spread rumours he's a child killer etc etc. And the Jarl issue, he is an Imperial Jarl according to Drunkenmage, but then when situations arise that damages the Empire's image, he's all of a sudden independent. You can hate Ulfric and everything he stands for, but it's obvious he isn't the type of man to murder women and children just for the sake of it.
Question for you. Why, is it so bad to hear the Imperials side of the Markarth Incident? I mean, the Empire didn't make the deal with Ulfric they were left with the bill once the new Jarl decided he'd rather turn the city over to the Empire as opposed to facing the Thalmor. So, we hear the Stormcloaks side of everything, I would think the Imperials version of events should be just as important.
Of course, that's prob one reason why ya'll can't get along
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
It has nothing to do with the Stormcloaks, they weren't a thing at the time. We do know executions about the Forsworn uprising took place, Braig mentions his daughter was killed later on by the Jarl.
You keep bringing up that is it Imperial propaganda, show me in both books where it puts the Empire in amazing light? Show me where it aims at damning the Stormcloaks, and encouraging Imperial rule.
It is funny since the Empire has never published 'propaganda' using a Scholar who writes more than one book. They certainly don't write war-time propaganda in the guise of a historical account. The only thing the Imperials have written about the Civil War is this http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Holds_of_Skyrim
A Jarl is largely independent, they're all part of the Empire. But the Empire itself is represented from Solitude and the High King.
High King swears fealty to the Emperor, and as Solitude is the city most directly influenced by Imperial culture and politics, the Jarl of Solitude has served as High King for generations. - Skyrim's Rule.
The only way it would have been the "Empire" that hired Ulfric, is that if High King Istlod tasked his Militia with it, not Jarl Hrolfdir. Igmund is an Imperial Jarl in the sense that he's stayed loyal to the Empire during the Stormcloak Rebellion.
Or if you want, I'll just agree and say. Alright it was the Empire who got Ulfric to retake Markarth, hoping the Thalmor wouldn't find out about the Talos worship. Little did they know, Ulfric was in direct contact with the Thalmor as an asset prior to the Markarth Incident. The Thalmor, watching Ulfric Stormcloak discovered Talos worship quickly and threatened that if he wasn't arrested the Great War would be back on.
The Empire, not in a position to continue fighting. Arrest Ulfric Stormcloak for violating the White-Gold Concordat.
Now I can use the arguments that Stormcloaks slaughter innocent giants that haven't harmed anyone. Calling them monsters and plan to drive them out of Skyrim, as proven with Jarl Skald who directly represents Ulfric's policies, being his greatest supporter.
Stormcloak policy also includes to be anti-Magic, with the College of Winterhold being considered an threat and murderers. Where they're just taught to kill people with magic. The next in line at Winterhold has been taught well by his father, he enjoys a good game of hunt the elf.
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Lewsean
Member
It has nothing to do with the Stormcloaks, they weren't a thing at the time. We do know executions about the Forsworn uprising took place, Braig mentions his daughter was killed later on by the Jarl.
And at the start of the game, the PC is seconds away from receiving the same treatment from the Empire that you're trying to degrade Ulfric for..
"Nords kill non forsworn, so bad!!" "Empire attempts to kill non Stormcloak, that's fine"
You keep bringing up that is it Imperial propaganda, show me in both books where it puts the Empire in amazing light? Show me where it aims at damning the Stormcloaks, and encouraging Imperial rule.
It is funny since the Empire has never published 'propaganda' using a Scholar who writes more than one book. They certainly don't write war-time propaganda in the guise of a historical account. The only thing the Imperials have written about the Civil War is this http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Holds_of_Skyrim
Propaganda's main goal isn't to make your side look good, it's to make the other side look bad so the people make their own 'choice' that your side is good.
'Propaganda is information that is not impartial and used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or using loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. Propaganda can be used as a form of ideological or commercial warfare'
A Jarl is largely independent, they're all part of the Empire. But the Empire itself is represented from Solitude and the High King.
High King swears fealty to the Emperor, and as Solitude is the city most directly influenced by Imperial culture and politics, the Jarl of Solitude has served as High King for generations. - Skyrim's Rule.
The only way it would have been the "Empire" that hired Ulfric, is that if High King Istlod tasked his Militia with it, not Jarl Hrolfdir. Igmund is an Imperial Jarl in the sense that he's stayed loyal to the Empire during the Stormcloak Rebellion.
Or if you want, I'll just agree and say. Alright it was the Empire who got Ulfric to retake Markarth, hoping the Thalmor wouldn't find out about the Talos worship. Little did they know, Ulfric was in direct contact with the Thalmor as an asset prior to the Markarth Incident. The Thalmor, watching Ulfric Stormcloak discovered Talos worship quickly and threatened that if he wasn't arrested the Great War would be back on.
The Empire, not in a position to continue fighting. Arrest Ulfric Stormcloak for violating the White-Gold Concordat.
Now I can use the arguments that Stormcloaks slaughter innocent giants that haven't harmed anyone. Calling them monsters and plan to drive them out of Skyrim, as proven with Jarl Skald who directly represents Ulfric's policies, being his greatest supporter.
Stormcloak policy also includes to be anti-Magic, with the College of Winterhold being considered an threat and murderers. Where they're just taught to kill people with magic. The next in line at Winterhold has been taught well by his father, he enjoys a good game of hunt the elf.
Can you not see how painfully obvious it is that the Empire is being played just as much as Ulfric lol.. And do you blame Nords for taking a dislike to magic? Nearly every encounter they've had with magical races or magic in general ends in disaster, Winterhold is a mess because of the College, and the college once again very nearly wipes out Winterhold.
Can't get to grips with this new quote system (If it is new, if not I must be doing something different than before..)
And at the start of the game, the PC is seconds away from receiving the same treatment from the Empire that you're trying to degrade Ulfric for..
"Nords kill non forsworn, so bad!!" "Empire attempts to kill non Stormcloak, that's fine"
You keep bringing up that is it Imperial propaganda, show me in both books where it puts the Empire in amazing light? Show me where it aims at damning the Stormcloaks, and encouraging Imperial rule.
It is funny since the Empire has never published 'propaganda' using a Scholar who writes more than one book. They certainly don't write war-time propaganda in the guise of a historical account. The only thing the Imperials have written about the Civil War is this http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Holds_of_Skyrim
Propaganda's main goal isn't to make your side look good, it's to make the other side look bad so the people make their own 'choice' that your side is good.
'Propaganda is information that is not impartial and used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or using loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. Propaganda can be used as a form of ideological or commercial warfare'
A Jarl is largely independent, they're all part of the Empire. But the Empire itself is represented from Solitude and the High King.
High King swears fealty to the Emperor, and as Solitude is the city most directly influenced by Imperial culture and politics, the Jarl of Solitude has served as High King for generations. - Skyrim's Rule.
The only way it would have been the "Empire" that hired Ulfric, is that if High King Istlod tasked his Militia with it, not Jarl Hrolfdir. Igmund is an Imperial Jarl in the sense that he's stayed loyal to the Empire during the Stormcloak Rebellion.
Or if you want, I'll just agree and say. Alright it was the Empire who got Ulfric to retake Markarth, hoping the Thalmor wouldn't find out about the Talos worship. Little did they know, Ulfric was in direct contact with the Thalmor as an asset prior to the Markarth Incident. The Thalmor, watching Ulfric Stormcloak discovered Talos worship quickly and threatened that if he wasn't arrested the Great War would be back on.
The Empire, not in a position to continue fighting. Arrest Ulfric Stormcloak for violating the White-Gold Concordat.
Now I can use the arguments that Stormcloaks slaughter innocent giants that haven't harmed anyone. Calling them monsters and plan to drive them out of Skyrim, as proven with Jarl Skald who directly represents Ulfric's policies, being his greatest supporter.
Stormcloak policy also includes to be anti-Magic, with the College of Winterhold being considered an threat and murderers. Where they're just taught to kill people with magic. The next in line at Winterhold has been taught well by his father, he enjoys a good game of hunt the elf.
Can you not see how painfully obvious it is that the Empire is being played just as much as Ulfric lol.. And do you blame Nords for taking a dislike to magic? Nearly every encounter they've had with magical races or magic in general ends in disaster, Winterhold is a mess because of the College, and the college once again very nearly wipes out Winterhold.
Can't get to grips with this new quote system (If it is new, if not I must be doing something different than before..)
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I made it quite clear several posts ago that 'The Bear of Markarth' isn't even a good thing to target Stormcloaks with, since the Empire has done just as as bad or worse during it's long history...
It is you Stormcloaks who have this horrible problem with denying that anything like this could happen, because it would ruin why people should join the Stormcloaks. It doesn't. All it does is just show that no faction is a saint.
You're about to be executed and walk through a torture room five minutes in the game. You think the Empire has never done something like this? Legion has killed innocent women and children. Also covered it up by removing it from historical records.
The Empire doesn't write propaganda about criminals in historical books, they print wanted posters of Ulfric Stormcloak. They probably have propaganda written on them.
Of course the Empire is being played, but they're catching on. Winterhold isn't a mess because of the College, that is not proven.
If you want my honest view, I don't think the Empire is the best. The cause the Stormcloaks have is a good cause, and provinces have every right to be independent.
But the Stormcloaks go about it the wrong way. It'll take more than Nords fight the Aldmeri Dominion and it'll take more than Nords to create Skyrim strong once more.
You're propagating discrimination, while you yourselves are fighting discrimination. You're against the Thalmor's elven supremacy, but your intentions are to make Skyrim even more Nord focused. Which in simplest form is racist to nine races who all call Skyrim their home. Skyrim doesn't need that kind of politics, especially the Fourth Era. Argonians and Dunmer are treated like third class citizens in Windhelm, some citizens think they're Thalmor spies because they're Mer. Majority of the Stormcloak supporters also harbor resentment to other races.
You'd have a lot more support if you weren't going for Nord superiority. Think there is a dialogue from someone in a Jarl's Court who mentions they won't fight for the Stormcloaks because they're not a Nord. ( I could be mistaken on that, so I claim that dialogue is fact.
The whole "Hammerfell did it, why can't Skyrim?" isn't even that valid since Hammerfell wasn't ravaged by Dragons or recovering from a Civil War. Everyone in Hammerfell had united together, and the Redguards don't have the racial problems Skyrim does.
Ulfric isn't the one to lead an independent Skyrim, his rebellion seems more like a power grab. "Lets free Skyrim from the shackles of the Empire, but only if I become High King and only I decide what is in Skyrim's best interests."
The only way I see the Aldmeri Dominion being defeated is what the book 'The Great War' mentions:
There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.
After the Second Great War, go do whatever you like.
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DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
It isn't just Nords, we Mages suffer from accusations from simpletons everywhere! As Divayth Fyr once commented: As far as they are concerned, every manipulator of magicka is just waiting for midnight before skulking off to the cemetery to animate the corpses of their neighbors and ancestors.
I did not spend hundreds of hours mastering my wizardry to be told to "Cast my fancy magic some place else"
They don't like us now, it's all "Go away evil magic user!" But when they want something, oh different story. "Save us from the Daedra! Enchant this! Heal me! Why is my wife a goat?!" (Though that last one may have been me using Sheo's staff...)
If we left, you savages would start warring over firewood and sacrifice animals anytime the sun sets to bring it back.
Anyway, on a serious note.
At least Jarl Kraldar at least is willing to try to repair relations with the College, and he is Mage friendly. He also is willing to try rebuild Winterhold, instead of sulking.
"With the Empire's help, Winterhold will be back on its feet in no time." and "There's yet hope that our relationship with the College can be repaired."
As an extremely Mage favored player in fantasy settings, I support all Mage friendly people.
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General Charles Xander
General of the 11th Imperial Legion
So are you a spellsword? Or are you just a pure Mage?
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Pure Mage of course.
General Charles Xander
General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Oooo, I like the new sig. You should give us a picture of your character so I can get a better idea of you. Right now, all I can see is Lieutenant Maro with spells in each hand.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
The Silver-bloods may support Ulfric but they're not the Jarl, yet. Igmund seems to be OK with what the Silver-bloods are doing. Even his Stewart suggested that he throw them in prison for their activities with the Stormcloaks.
Rearek: "Igmund, we need to talk about the Silver-Blood family."
Igmund: "What about them? They seem loyal enough."
Rearek: "Loyal? Thongvor supports Ulfric and his Stormcloaks! We should imprison the entire family as a precaution."
Faleen: "I second that, Igmund. Who knows what that family will do for power? They could be working with the Forsworn, for all we know."
Igmund: "Enough! We can't imprison the very people that own the jail we would be throwing them into. The Silver-Blood family are to be left alone, am I clear?"
Faleen: "Yes, my Jarl."
Rearek: "Yes, my Jarl."
So does the Jarls. They have the authority to arrest citizens and to execute them base on the severity of their crimes. They're also support to follow Imperial laws. Yes they obey the High King, and part of obeying the High king is to become enforcers of Imperial laws in their holds.
Jarl Hrolfdir and his son, Igmund, almost initiated the return of the Great war for making such promises of open free worship of Talos to a group of desperate Nords to retake back the Markarth as a full payment.
According to the natives of the reach It was their home that was taken away, not the other way around.
Vilkas or farkus (I don't remember which one) mentions something similar.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Why do people always try to win a lore battle against @DrunkenMage? Don't people know that there is no winning against someone who knows what they are talking about?
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
The large part of the reason why I am a PRO Stormcloak in the first place is because I firmly believe in independence. I do not like the majority of the Stormcloak supported Jarls, and i'm not afraid to speak it too. I think that if anything Ulfric made the mistake of choosing these characters to run the hold. Ulfric is human after all so he is allowed to make mistakes.
If the Empire is smart enough they'll let Ulfric take over Skyrim by becoming the next new High King, and let him make as many mistakes as he can. Let the people get fed up with Ulfric from his consent mistakes, and let them beg for the return of the Empire. Ulfric's primary goals is to go after the Aldmeri Dominion himself... thinking that he will succeeded while the Empire falls. The Empire can save much needed resources if they allow Ulfric to follow his dreams of leading his men, and himself to death by fighting with the elves.
IMO it is a good idea for a province not to overly depend on the Empire, but learn to fight for themselves while the Empire is in recovery mode.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
At least there are some who are trying, and not spending the majority of time smooching on DrunkenMage's ass all the time. This thread would cease to exist if everyone agrees with him, and refuses to challenge him in a debate. In fact this thread would be quite boring without a challenge from time to time.
Unless if DrunkenMage spends his entire life on the elders scrolls lore I'm sure that theirs some aspects that he himself aren't aware of.
