Open Cities and Crowded Cities

[Flamingtaco]

I beg to differ. Console gaming is no way cheap, if you consider how much the same hardware what's inside xbox, would cost in a PC rig. It has only 512mb RAM (700mhz) and an outdated graphics card. Price for that hardware is incerdible, if you look it from that perspective. And it's not easy, if your console starts to glitch or have some problem. Thanks to numerous so called anti-hack systems, it's almost impossible to recover your xbox once it's broken down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems

I mean for consumers. I can buy and xbox for $250. If I got a desktop pc for that price it could barely run morrowind on lowest settings, let alone modern games.

 

[Demut]

An Xbox 360 for $250? A used one, you mean?

Game industry is business just like music industry. It's not a charity.

But they don’t have to try to make as much money as possible by all means necessary. You know, for some people there’s this thing called “enough”.

Demut you have a lot of angst direction toward corporations.

Corporations are psychopaths by design with no regard for human interests. Their only goal is to maximize the profits of their shareholders and they do that without stopping at anything. With that in mind being afraid of them is a pretty sane reaction, don’t you think?

 

[hexperiment]

So you agree that Bethesda doesn’t care about what would be best for their customers but instead what makes them the most money, yes?

Yes, Demut. I completely agree with you that Bethesda clearly doesn't care about us and only want our wallets. You are totally not reflecting your unwavering bias against any form of corporation on my post. Their design choices have nothing to do with software limitation, or general popularity but their only concern is money. Everyone in that company is a robot who wants as much money as possible. You're posts doesn't come off as saying "STOP RIGHT THERE CORPORATE SCUM! You wanted my money and everyone else's. I want you to do extra absurd amount of work that will satisfy a small niche to which I belong."

I mean, Bethesda doesn't really care what we would like. They just put everything that will get them money with least amount of effort, as it is clearly shown through their podcast. I didn't listen to it but I'm super duper sure that Todd Howard said "When we design stuffs in Skyrim, we don't ask ourselves, 'is this cool? would this make it fun? is it balanced?' but we only ask 'What's the least amount of effort that I could put in while gaining a lot of money?' We don't care what the players think. They are just tools that gives us money. So when am I getting paid for this interview?" ;]

 

[Demut]

You clearly misunderstood my message. I am not claiming that the individuals within the corporation exhibit the same behaviors, however, if they don’t and it ends up obstructing the primary objective then there’ll be repercussions for them which (over time) conditions them to adapt to this system. Yes, the developers want players to have fun. But if this comes at the expense of missed profits (even if only imaginary ones) then it will get shut down. End of story.
I don’t blame you for being naïve, hexperiment, but if you had ever read some “off-the-record” statements made by developers working at these companies throughout the industry then you would see that their work is accompanied (if not dictated) by a constant battle against the greed of the shareholders. According to several people Bethesda does a better job at warding off these interferences than most other corporations in this branch but it is by no means impervious to them. Maybe you haven’t realized this yet but Todd Howard can’t do what he wants. Should he decide to make a move that could seriously decrease the investors’ returns then he would find his ass faster on the streets than he could shout “Fus Ro Dah”.

 

[hexperiment]

I know very well how the system works >.> I was just poking fun at you dude. So much seriousness. and condescension -.-

 

[Demut]

Well, your “poking fun” sounded a lot like butthurt, passive-aggressive sarcasm though :<
And since you misrepresented my position (be it as a joke or not) I felt compelled to set things straight :3

No hard feelings?

 

[Vimalamitra]

Online communication can be difficult and we often misunderstand each other. Atleast we can try to be mindful about posting, give each other the benefit of the doubt, and ask for clarification if we are not sure what another one meant.

 

[hexperiment]

Yeah. The sarcasm and exaggerated misrepresentation is the part of poking fun, dude. I guess it wasn't clear. You should probably try to avoid sounding condescending to other people though. It only gets in the way of argument.

soft feeling. ONLY

 

[Travis]

I like the idea of a crowded cities crowded roads mod. I think I have concerns about blending the cities with the world, because if this was able to be done well, I think Bethesda would have done it.

 

[Demut]

Online communication can be difficult and we often misunderstand each other. Atleast we can try to be mindful about posting, give each other the benefit of the doubt, and ask for clarification if we are not sure what another one meant.

Indeed. Assuming good faith is a must if one wants to avoid negative consequences of misunderstanding each other. Too bad that emoticons are not enough to convey one’s feelings and intentions.

 

[Flamingtaco]

An Xbox 360 for $250? A used one, you mean?

Im pretty certain the newest version without a hard drive is like $200 or $250. It could be $300. Either way, that will get you playing high quality games on xbox but would be an absolutely crappy pc. As to the whole corporation debate, I would say since the majority of game developers are and were gamers themselves, they are much more likely to listen to the community but the company they work for is the problem. Look at say COD for example. Im sure Treyarch and Infinity Ward would love to do their own thing or change COD but because Activison wants the same succesful game released every year without much change to the formula, thats what happens. Treyarch especially tried to do as much as they could for innovation but they still have to meet their employers' demands.

 

[Vimalamitra]

Im pretty certain the newest version without a hard drive is like $200 or $250. It could be $300. Either way, that will get you playing high quality games on xbox but would be an absolutely crappy pc.

I am not sure about that one though. For example, to get Battlefield 3 running in High-Res you need to download and install from internet texture pack for that purpose. If you don't have a hard-drive, then... you can guess the rest of it.

http://www.lensoftruth.com/head2head-battlefield-3-xbox-360-texture-pack-screenshot-comparison/

My own rig cost around 500€ when I upgraded it. It would've been more, but I got already hard drives and a case.

 

[Demut]

As to the whole corporation debate, I would say since the majority of game developers are and were gamers themselves, they are much more likely to listen to the community but the company they work for is the problem. Look at say COD for example. Im sure Treyarch and Infinity Ward would love to do their own thing or change COD but because Activison wants the same succesful game released every year without much change to the formula, thats what happens. Treyarch especially tried to do as much as they could for innovation but they still have to meet their employers' demands.

That is what I am talking about. I have no doubt that the actual employees have different goals and wishes. But they are not the ones who get to decide this because they are working at a corporation where the people who bought the most shares get to decide how it’s run. Why anyone would still incorporate his business despite knowing this is beyond me. Greed, I suppose?

 

[Flamingtaco]

I am not sure about that one though. For example, to get Battlefield 3 running in High-Res you need to download and install from internet texture pack for that purpose. If you don't have a hard-drive, then... you can guess the rest of it.

http://www.lensoftruth.com/head2head-battlefield-3-xbox-360-texture-pack-screenshot-comparison/

My own rig cost around 500€ when I upgraded it. It would've been more, but I got already hard drives and a case.

Battlefield is an exception. Most games only have installations as an option so that you can speed up load times. The point is that console gaming is cheaper. The point with that is that pc gaming is better.

I like the idea of a crowded cities crowded roads mod. I think I have concerns about blending the cities with the world, because if this was able to be done well, I think Bethesda would have done it.

Thanks for getting back on topic Travis. I think the reason Bethesda doesnt do it is because they are worries about slowdowns, and maybe certain parts of the ai or the regional bounty system are easier like this. Your point is valid, but there are many well done mods that work fine and add to the game but that Bethesda didnt include.

 

[Travis]

Why do you think Bethesda chooses not to implement those things themselves? If they know we want them, and people will get excited about them and buy more game copies, then why not include it? Too much work for too little pay off? Not enough time?

 

[Demut]

Apparently they don’t deem it important enough to do so and thus other things have a higher priority for them. But as we saw this time they took some of the time-proven mods for Oblivion and implemented them in Skyrim (e.g. stronger bows). So maybe the next installment will include this if enough people ask for it. Personally, I am not all that bothered by it. It just would seem weird for them to take a pass on this only because consoles wouldn’t have that feature and that’s what annoys me about this issue.

 

[SaveVsBedWet]

That would be an ideal way for PC gamers like us but really, that's really impractical for development. I mean, console gamers are the majority (at least in terms of profit) so it's not really worth the effort in terms of cost/effect. However, pc gaming is growing bigger, I believe so perhaps reverse will happen some day.

Not sure what led you to some of these conclusions. If it wasn't for PC gaming there would be no Elder Scrolls on consoles at all, nor any of the other higher end games you see today. PC games were already blowing minds with graphics and setting the bar back when console gaming consisted of sliding a colored plastic screen onto a black and white Vectrex box just to get cyan as a color on line graphics. Down-porting from higher end platforms was not only an option, it was a standard, and PC gaming is not "getting bigger". It is going from "The Default Platform For Real Games and Gamers" to "A Niche Whose Time May Have Past but For All The Wrong Reasons". Most games that went straight to console were either coin-op ports, or simpleton Mario Bros. re-writes (which are merely a coin-op spinoff), until the PlayStation and it's "Cutscenes > Content" revolution came along.

As a programmer, I could never find it more efficient to code a cut rate version of a module or program and then have to turn around and re-write to add power than to simply code for max functionality from the start and REM out what's unnecessary for the El Cheapo version. Just doesn't make sense. More functionality means more testing, more debugging, all better handled on the front end of the process than discovering how much is going to break at the midway point trying to hotrod the source code.

This is in fact, about money, nothing more, and it does represent a certain disregard for what and who put the industry on the map. Just like the almost complete abandonment of quality single player development in these franchises that are bankrolling for multiplayer console stuff (Infinity Ward/COD, that means you).

And on that point, I do have to reiterate that the CRPG genre, and TES in particular, has been held up to the faces of those claiming the single player genre as well as the PC platform is dead for a very long time. Making it doubly disheartening if it were to be revealed that Bethesda, more than any other gaming company including even Id, had decided that designing for the PC genre "first" was anything less than automatic. It was their determination to continue making intricate and endlessly open games when the masses dumbed down and wanted to cover their whole experience with 5 buttons, a kewl soundtrack and an overabundance of 720p cutscenes that put them in a class by themselves.

It is also what made bugs in release level games a "grin and bear it" reality of playing great games instead of a deal breaker. But those same problems on a dumbed down console port?

I applauded Bioware for the same things with the Mass Effect franchise, which has now caused its own brand of concern with the constant dumbing down of that title in deference to console users. For some "also ran" title? Fine. For your flagship title? The one your name goes out on that was made by being a cut above and putting nothing in front of content quality? Certainly not.

There is the consideration of course that PC alone allows for the mod market, which will make up the difference in most circumstances. This did not exist prior to games like Doom, and does partially explain why early PC title development spent its entire life with the pedal to the floor whereas it doesn't "have to" now. But this only excuses so much.