Spoiler Would you consider Ulfric evil?

[samgurl775]

So much fail in that post it's not even worth responding. I just feel like you have no clue how war or politics work.

 

[Jeremius]

Here is what we should have the option to do: Kill both Ulfric and Tulius then run around killing dragons till we die.

 

[Raijin]

So much fail in that post it's not even worth responding. I just feel like you have no clue how war or politics work.

While I disagree with your opinion I respect it. I hope you share the same curiosity as I do with my views.

By the way where did you receive your engineering degree on war and politics? I would like to see your credibility before I actually take you seriously. Don't sit here telling me that I don't know my stuffs when you probably don't know jack either. I'm sure you're no Real life General or worked in the whitehouse so don't give me that "just feel like you have no clue how war or politics work" garbage.

 

[Dagmar]

I must of missed something when I read the lore, but where did it say that the empire disowned Hammerfell? According to the lore: “When the war ended, Emperor Titus Mede II ceded a portion of southern Hammerfell to the Dominion and outlawed worship of Talos throughout the Empire. The Redguards, outraged, continued to defy the White-Gold Concordat, forcing Titus Mede II to release Hammerfell as its own, independent state.”

The Empire didn't wanted to disown Hammerfell.

I have no idea what you're trying to establish with these statements other than that you're a thoroughly confused individual. You begin by saying that you don't see anything in the lore about the Empire disowning Hammerfell, then you proceed to cite lore that says that the Empire disowned Hammerfell, and then conclude with the assertion that the Empire didn't want to disown Hammerfell which is an indirect acknowledgement that it did in fact disown Hammerfell.

Jeremius has a point. Arrianus Arius is an Arthur of 2 books.

Not really.

Arius is an Arthur of 2 books. I Googled up his name to find more information about him, and received nothing. I question this author credibility.

You have no logical basis to question his credibility, only your own personal desire to vindicate Ulfric for actions which you can't otherwise defend.

I've explained this to you numerous times before but the appeal to an absence of evidence is a very basic logical fallacy also known as an appeal to ignorance and it's a losing argument that people use as a crutch when they have no evidence to support their own position. There is content that establishes his actions in Markarth. There is no content contradicting it.

You can believe what you want, including that pink elephants fly out of Galmar's butt at the stroke of midnight every Loredas. You have about equal basis to adhere to that belief as you do that what Ulfric did at Markarth never happened.

 

[Jeremius]

I have no idea what you're trying to establish with these statements other than that you're a thoroughly confused individual. You begin by saying that you don't see anything in the lore about the Empire disowning Hammerfell, then you proceed to cite lore that says that the Empire disowned Hammerfell, and then conclude with the assertion that the Empire didn't want to disown Hammerfell which is an indirect acknowledgement that it did in fact disown Hammerfell.

Not really.

You have no logical basis to question his credibility, only your own personal desire to vindicate Ulfric for actions which you can't otherwise defend.

I've explained this to you numerous times before but the appeal to an absence of evidence is a very basic logical fallacy also known as an appeal to ignorance and it's a losing argument that people use as a crutch when they have no evidence to support their own position. There is content that establishes his actions in Markarth. There is no content contradicting it.

You can believe what you want, including that pink elephants fly out of Galmar's butt at the stroke of midnight every Loredas. You have about equal basis to adhere to that belief as you do that what Ulfric did at Markarth never happened.

to the bolded, there is no evidence pointing to your side as the truth either. NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THE MARKARTH INCIDENT! Sorry, but unless you have direct evidence from in-game other than that book, we have no real clue what happened back then. You have no in-game evidence besides that book to coincide with your opinion, and Raijin and I have no evidence to say we are right, so the book is "true until proven false" which means it is just a book and means nothing right now.

 

[Dagmar]

to the bolded, there is no evidence pointing to your side as the truth either. NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THE MARKARTH INCIDENT!

The book is the only evidence necessary. It's credible even if you're incapable of comprehending that. The majority of what we know about the Elder Scrolls universe comes from books as the games only cover brief periods of time in Tamriel while the books cover millenia. If you assume that nothing exists or has happened because the NPCs don't discuss it then you have to dismiss thousands of years of events in Tamriel which is a completely absurd notion.

...we have no real clue what happened back then..

You're partially right. You're clueless. The rest of it is incoherent. At least you're consistent.

 

[Jeremius]

The book is the only evidence necessary. It's credible even if you're incapable of comprehending that. The majority of what we know about the Elder Scrolls universe comes from books as the games only cover brief periods of time in Tamriel while the books cover millenia. If you assume that nothing exists or has happened because the NPCs don't discuss it then you have to dismiss thousands of years of events in Tamriel which is a completely absurd notion.

You're partially right. You're clueless. The rest of it is incoherent. At least you're consistent.

where is the in-game evidence that proves the book is true? Was he there? How did he learn the information? was the source of that info reliable? all of these should be answered before you keep telling me that book is the real deal and ulfirc is a murderer.

 

[Dagmar]

...all of these should be answered before you keep telling me that book is the real deal and ulfirc is a murderer.

No they shouldn't, and they don't need to be. I already have content. You have nothing but your imaginary conspiracy theories that enjoy the same credibility as my example about Galmar' magical orifice from my earlier post. I really don't care what you like to pretend and imagine independently in your mind. It's simply not relevant.

 

[Jeremius]

No they shouldn't, and they don't need to be. I already have content. You have nothing but your imaginary conspiracy theories that enjoy the same credibility as my example about Galmar' magical orifice from my earlier post. I really don't care what you like to pretend and imagine independently in your mind. It's simply not relevant.

actually they do, if the book was influenced by someone who hated Ulfric, there would be bias in the book. All that book proves, right now, is that Ulfric is a warmonger, which I already knew, so it just furthered my own thoughts on him not being evil, but still not fit for the throne of high king.

I do not mean to argue, but until I learn the source of the information, The Bear of Markarth is going to be in my ignore/true until proven biased list.

Just stand there in the palace of kings and listen to Ulfric and Galmar. Ulfric says in response to Galmar that Killing Torygg was just a message. If he did kill all those innocents, then why did he not kill the Jarls whose only crime against him was not siding with him?

 

[Docta Corvina]

the 9th divines all thanks to an unfit Emperor that signed the White-Cold Concordat treaty to save his own ass, nothing more. While the empire was taking their sweet ass time to recover from the war Talos worshipers were being imprisoned and killed by the Thalmor.

The Empire was taking "its sweet ass time"? Now I know you're joking. Unless Tamriel is part of an ancient Greek fable and people normally just literally spring up out of the earth...no, decimated populations require time to restore. Not sure what the gestation period is for people in the ES universe, but I would hazard to guess that for humans, it's a cycle roughly equivalent to our own. It's only been about 30 years since the war began, 26 since it was ended with the Concordat's signing. You really think that's enough time to completely restore a fighting force to its former capacity, not to mention fully restore all of the resources ruined by the scorched earth tactics?

That's another reason why the Thalmor has the modus operandi it does: they literally have lifetimes to bide their time and play the proxy game of chess with everyone's lives. Mede wasn't an idiot, he saw the danger reflected in both the carnage around him and the haze of uncertainty about the other side's own strength.

 

[Jeremius]

Dagmar, There are also the Allegations of Racism. The book discredits those unless it is biased.

IF we go by you and the book is unbiased info, the Ulfric is not racist, since no racist would kill innocent Nord just because they won't fight on your side.

the ball is in your court Dagmar. IS Ulfric a racist or is the book unbiased?

 

[Janus3003]

The Empire was taking "its sweet ass time"? Now Iknow you're joking. Unless Tamriel is part of an ancient Greek fable and people normally just literally spring up out of the earth...no, decimated populations require time to restore.

By order of the Emperor Titus Mede II, all able-bodied citizens of the Empire are to get busy.

 

[Raijin]

I have no idea what you're trying to establish with these statements other than that you're a thoroughly confused individual. You begin by saying that you don't see anything in the lore about the Empire disowning Hammerfell, then you proceed to cite lore that says that the Empire disowned Hammerfell, and then conclude with the assertion that the Empire didn't want to disown Hammerfell which is an indirect acknowledgement that it did in fact disown Hammerfell.

This is what you wrote “Hammerfell didn't fight for independence from the Empire. The Empire disowned Hammerfell.”

To my understanding, base on what you wrote, the Empire disowned Hammerfell like if it was no big deal. Perhaps if you were more clear of what you wrote I would've agreed with you. The Empire did not want to disown Hammerfell because thats one less province that the Empire has. Since the people in Hammerfell wasn't going to put up with such treachery from the empire they most likely sent the Emperor a very nice, but very detailing letter telling him either he surrenders Hammerfell or face consequences through war.
The king/queen or whoever is the ruler in Hammerfell isn't a spineless wimp like High King torygg, who on the other hand is soaked up to the bone on Imperial coin so of course he didn't say anything when the empire signed the treaty to the elves.

Not really.

Yes really

You have no logical basis to question his credibility, only your own personal desire to vindicate Ulfric for actions which you can't otherwise defend.

So Ulfric is guilty of mass slaughtering of innocent people base on 1 person that wrote a book about it? Where are the rest of the witnesses? Wow I hate to be in your world.

You can believe what you want, including that pink elephants fly out of Galmar's butt at the stroke of midnight every Loredas. You have about equal basis to adhere to that belief as you do that what Ulfric did at Markarth never happened.

Galmar produces flying pink elephants out of his butt? Did the Arthur wrote that too? If so then it must be true If you can show me prove indicting that Ulfric is a serial mass murderer back when he was taking care of the forsworn people in Markarth, I am more than willing to hear it out. Just stop obsessing over that book already. If thats all you have then I'm not that impressed over it, seriously.

The Empire was taking "its sweet ass time"? Now I know you're joking. Unless Tamriel is part of an ancient Greek fable and people normally just literally spring up out of the earth...no, decimated populations require time to restore. Not sure what the gestation period is for people in the ES universe, but I would hazard to guess that for humans, it's a cycle roughly equivalent to our own. It's only been about 30 years since the war began, 26 since it was ended with the Concordat's signing. You really think that's enough time to completely restore a fighting force to its former capacity, not to mention fully restore all of the resources ruined by the scorched earth tactics?

The empire could develop a program like of Lebensborn. Get about 200 (Or more) healthy women and men, and let them breed like bunnies. That will help boost up their popularity, and to restore order Of course the children that are produced under this program will get free medical and education paid for by the empire.

Oh and the empire could reward couples on the amount of children that they produce by lowing their taxes, or giving them free education for the child.

 

[kirak95197]

I wouldn't really consider him evil for standing up for a belief. I don't agree with his ideas but that doesn't mean he is evil.

 

[azali100]

Dagmar

IF we go by you and the book is unbiased info, the Ulfric is not racist, since no racist would kill innocent Nord just because they won't fight on your side.

the ball is in your court Dagmar. IS Ulfric a racist or is the book unbiased?

What makes you think that? Thats just silly. Ulfric said you are with us or against us. Not fighting for his side fell into the "against us" catagory.[/quote]

 

[Crooksin]

Wow, this has gotten ridiculous. I think the whole point the devs were trying to make with the Stormcloaks vs Empire storyline was that you couldn't argue one side fully through and to keep everything on even ground. Neither one is right, one may be doing the right things for the wrong reasons and the other one is doing the wrong things for the right reasons. Its like trying to argue which ones more like an apple when you only have 2 bananas. Whichever side you choose to play with, you are both right and wrong.

However, if I was the Thalmor, having the Stormcloaks rebel is EXACTLY what I want. Divide and conquer, this will see that BOTH the Empire and Stormcloaks are at their weakest fighting each other which allows me to keep them both as my personal bitches. SO, with that said I think Ulfric should put down his arms and settle with the Empire just for the time being until the BIGGER threat of the Thalmor are eliminated. The ends justify the means, people.

 

[Raijin]

After the Battle for Windhlem is complete General Tullius gives his final speech before he walks back to solitude:

Rikke: "Attention! General Tullius has an announcement!"
Tullius: "The rebellion is over. Ulfric Stormcloak is dead. His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn a spike on the walls of the Imperial City. Let this day be a final warning to all who would still call themselves Stormcloaks. We are turning the city over to Brunwulf Free-Winter, an honorable and faithful man. Many of you will be staying in Windhelm to aid the Jarl in restoring order and stamping out any embers of rebellion that may still smolder here. In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation to the widows of your fallen comrades. I am proud of all of you. All hail the Emperor. All hail his Legionnaires! I hate giving speeches."

Now Ulfric Stormcloak speech after battle of solitude is completed:

Galmar: "And now, I present to you, Ulfric Stormcloak, hero of the people, liberator and High King of Skyrim!"Ulfric: "I am indeed Ulfric Stormcloak, and at my side the man/woman we know as Stormblade, and the world knows as the Dragonborn. And indeed, there are many that call us heroes. But it is all of you who are the true heroes! It was you who fought a dying Empire who sunk its claws into our land, trying to drag us down with it. It was you who fought the Thalmor and their puppets who would have us deny our gods and our heritage. It was you who fought your kin who didn't understand our cause, who weren't willing to pay the price of our freedom. But more than that, it was you who fought for Skyrim, for our right to fight our own battles... To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"
Soldiers: "Huzzah!"
Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."
Soldier: "And what about Jarl Elisif?"
Ulfric: "Yes, what about the Lady Elisif? Will she put aside her personal hatred for me, and her misplaced love for the Emperor and his coin, so that the suffering of our people will end? Will she acknowledge that it is we Nord's who will determine Skyrim's future? Will she swear fealty to me, so all may know that we are at peace, and a new day has dawned?"
Elisif: "I do!"
Ulfric: "Then it is settled. The Jarl will continue to rule Solitude, I will garrison armies here to ward off Imperial attempts to reclaim the city. And in due time, the Moot will meet, and settle the claim to High King once and for all. There is much to do, and I need every able bodied man and woman committed to rebuilding Skyrim. A great darkness is growing, and soon we will be called to fight it, on these shores or abroad. The Aldmeri Dominion may have defeated the Empire, but it has not defeated Skyrim!"

If you notice Ulfric did not say anything diabolical about chopping off Tullius head off, and sending it back to imperial city. In fact if you go to Solitude Catacombs after the battle of solitude you notice that theirs 2 an additional coffins stuffed with General Tullius and Legate Rikke stuffs. So essentially they had a respected funeral.

Ulfric also includes the Dragonborn in his speech while on the other hand Tullius does not.

So tell me who's evil again?

 

[Hargood]

Ulfric also includes the Dragonborn in his speech while on the other hand Tullius does not.

So tell me who's evil again?

Oh WoW, I need to reload my Stormcloak Play Thru again. I didn't know this happened. I seriously wish they would do something on the Imperial Side for them. Wouldn't be AWESOME If you had Two Small Boats out in the River that were On Fire outside Windhelm?




Heck, I think I've had the Naked Bodies of Ulfric and Galmar in a Humping Position on my save games for Months now.

 

[Raijin]

Oh WoW, I need to reload my Stormcloak Play Thru again. I didn't know this happened. I seriously wish they would do something on the Imperial Side for them. Wouldn't be AWESOME If you had Two Small Boats out in the River that were On Fire outside Windhelm?


Heck, I think I've had the Naked Bodies of Ulfric and Galmar in a Humping Position on my save games for Months now.

The Imperial Legion is too violent and evil to do something this kind. They have the "head amputation" fetish.

 

[Docta Corvina]

To me, all the dialogue posted above of Galmar and Ulfric shows is that Ulfric really likes to hear himself talk. Tullius doesn't, and says as much. Ulfric is fond of speeches and the optics of giving speeches. Of course he's gonna fluff it up and "make nice". It's what people like him do best.

Tullius' words are cut and dry - very much in keeping with his character. Don't see what this has to do with anything really.

Not to mention, Ulfric bragging about the Dragonborn being at his side isn't exactly an admirable thing all around.