White Gold Concordant

[Anwrise888]

yes god before the people.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/218/530/wtf_is_this_plops_Very_Disturbing_Childrens_Book_RE_We_dont_say_ampquotGermanampquot_in_America-s400x297-59009.jpg?1324142033

 

[Dagmar]

Dagmar Why didn't Titus II agreed with the terms of the White-Gold Concordat the first round? That's what started this great war against the Aldmeri Dominion.

Because outside of the context of the aftermath of a long and bloody war those demands were unreasonable:

there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

What I'm trying to ask is.... why wasn't Mede II better organized? How could the dominion outsmart the man thats suppose to be the ruler of Tamriel? How could he not see this coming? Base on his actions alone makes him unsuitable to be the ruler of Tamriel.

There's nothing to indicate that Mede wasn't as organized as he could be under the situation. Sometimes I think that many players don't understand just how bad things are by the time the Great War occurs.

Titus Mede I took over a leaderless crumbling Empire. By the time he seized control the Thalmor were already set on an inevitable path to becoming the Aldmeri Dominion through decades of plotting and machinations which resulted in Titus Mede II inheriting an Empire in even further decline. Less than half of the provinces remained and the Imperial Legion was arguably at its weakest since the birth of the Third Empire at this point. It's not surprising at all that the Thalmor were able to outmanuever Titus II at the beginning of the War. They had a superior intelligence network (especially with execution of all the Blade spies within the Dominion), and are known for their mobility.

For the resources he had, Titus II actually did a remarkable job of combating the Aldmeri Dominion during the Great War. Even with vastly diminished resources compared to the Septim Dynasty he ultimately managed to secure military victory in Cyrodiil.

Emperor Titus Mede II gave the Aldmeri Dominion 1 step forward into controlling man, by taking away their faith and successfully tarnishing what the Empire stood for.

That's simply a "glass is half empty" view of things. The "glass is half full " perspective is that he bought time for the people of Cyrodiil and High Rock to rebuild and prepare for the inevitable resumption of conflict between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion. It's easy to romantacize going with the option of continuing the war indefinitely when your homeland isn't going to be actually experiencing any of the destruction that comes with it (Skyrim). Think about how plopsty things were in Cyrodiil and High Rock after the White-Gold Concordat with outlaw forces running amok causing death and destruction and then think how exponentially worse it would be with the Aldmeri Dominion constantly launching attacks on the coastlines and borders to add to all the misery and suffering. That option is completely unappealing to the people of Cyrodiil and High Rock which is why Qunitius stated that most people in the Empire were willing to accept peace at almost any price. That presumably includes many people in Skyrim notwistanding their isolation from the war given that the province as a whole accepted it for a quarter of a century.

 

[Raijin]

How does that correlate to your argument at all. Yes I said that Martin had to sacrifice himself and his lineage to defeat Dagon. But that doesn't apply to your argument at all, what you're trying to do here is slam Mede for not having the amulet and not being able to summon Akatosh which is in itself a terribly flawed argument.

Where did you get that from? I never once slam Mede II for not having the amulet, and for not being able to summon Akatosh. I simply slammed Mede II for not having anything to show for. He essentially told the Thalmor to go fluff themselves after they insist that he agrees with the WGC... and with that comes with consequences that started the Great War. I slam Mede for BEING WEAK! I slam Mede for being so disorganized, and not taking the Aldmeri Dominion seriously. Do you think for a moment that the Thalmor was going to walk away without doing something?

Again you let your misplaced sense of honor and righteousness cloud your thinking of politics. When Mede surrendered, he did it because he thought it'd save the Empire. An Empire that wouldn't be around to live with its "tarnished" reputation had he not.

He thought wrong. He lost Hammerfell and hes about to lose Skyrim. People are fed up with the Empire. I suppose that this is exactly what the Aldmeri Dominion wants.

But I don't believe it and it's nothing more than an uneducated opinion.
You mean like Ulfric did when he surrendered to his ambush party, despite knowing he and his men faced certain death at the chopping block? A point you've yet to reply to with a legitimate argument?

And what is an educated opinion? Pro Empire statements, eh? Just because you don't agree to my opinion doesn't make it an uneducated pov. I purposely ignored that ridiculous question because it's just flat out silly.
I've already explained how Ulfric isn't blood thirsty animal, and how he didn't wanted his men and women to die ... especially since he was out numbered.

Hadvar: A masterstroke by General Tullius! He;s only been in charge here for a few months, but he's turned things around for the Empire. We've been btrying to catch Ulfric since the war started, but he always seemed to slip through our fingers... like he knew we were coming. This time, the General turned the tables on him. Ulfric rode right into our ambush with only a few bodyguards. He surrendered pretty meekly, too. So much for his death-or-glory reputation. I thought we were taking Ulfric back to Cyrodiil, but I guess the General changed his mind. You know the rest.

Poor analogies aside, how do you even begin to presume things were going great for the Empire? It had been pushed from its Western front to its Eastern front, its cities had been razed and sacked and its people tortured and slaughtered in droves. Things were not going great for the Empire.

But then the Empire made a great come back:
4E 175 — The Battle of the Red Ring results in the complete destruction of the main Aldmeri force in Cyrodiil, a victory for the Empire precipitating the end of the Great War.

• The Imperial City is retaken and Titus II's decision to withdraw from it the previous year is vindicated. Despite this resounding victory, however, the Empire is exhausted and unable to continue the war. Realizing this, Titus II seeks to negotiate with the Aldmeri Dominion to end the war.

If the Aldmeri Dominion could have that much power over the Empire, and "needed time to recover" then perhaps the Thalmor are right. They are the rightful rulers of Tamriel, since they proven themselves by winning the war against the Empire.

If you really wanted to restore the Empire you wouldn't do so by fighting against it. What Ulfric wants is an independent Skyrim, not a new Empire.

Base on the game settings I don't blame Ulfric one bit for wanting Skyrims independence. Hammerfell had their Imperial shackles taken off, and so should Skyrim. And all the Jarls that proudly accepted imperial coin should be exiled.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Where did you get that from? I never once slam Mede II for not having the amulet, and for not being able to summon Akatosh. I simply slammed Mede II for not having anything to show for. He essentially told the Thalmor to go fu** themselves after they insist that he agrees with the WGC... and with that comes with consequences that started the Great War. I slam Mede for BEING WEAK! I slam Mede for being so disorganized, and not taking the Aldmeri Dominion seriously. Do you think for a moment that the Thalmor was going to walk away without doing something?

You literally brought the gods into this discussion and said quote "Mede didn't have the gods on his side" which is in itself a horrible argument. You slam Mede for not being able to summon Akatosh as Martin did, bringing religion into this argument. Mede II didn't have the amulet, thus he didn't have anything to show for it.

So you go from insisting the Empire is weak and cowardly for surrendering towards the end of the war to calling them stupid and disorganized for not surrendering at the beginning? Are you serious right now? There's a vast difference between agreeing to the terms before a war that would ravage a province and it's people and after. There's nothing that implied Mede didn't take the Thalmor seriously, in fact during his reign the growing Dominion was of great concern for the Empire.

Mede rejected it knowing there'd be war, it was stated in the ultimatum refusal meant conflict.

He thought wrong. He lost Hammerfell and hes about to lose Skyrim. People are fed up with the Empire. I suppose that this is exactly what the Aldmeri Dominion wants.

So you're openly admitting Ulfric is playing into the Thalmor's hand here?

And what is an educated opinion? Pro Empire statements, eh? Just because you don't agree to my opinion doesn't make it an uneducated pov. I purposely ignored that ridiculous question because it's just flat out silly.

I'm bringing facts and reason here while you're bringing opinionated and biased information.

I've already explained how Ulfric isn't blood thirsty animal, and how he didn't wanted his men and women to die ... especially since he was out numbered.

I've already laid out the parallels here and will do so again. Ulfric is not a blood thirsty monster and did not want his men to die? How is that situation any different from Mede wanting to end the suffering of his own people? and if Ulfric didn't want his people to die, surely he wouldn't surrender where execution was assured?

Both of them were under pressure, didn't want any more death or violence and gave in.

Hadvar: A masterstroke by General Tullius! He;s only been in charge here for a few months, but he's turned things around for the Empire. We've been btrying to catch Ulfric since the war started, but he always seemed to slip through our fingers... like he knew we were coming. This time, the General turned the tables on him. Ulfric rode right into our ambush with only a few bodyguards. He surrendered pretty meekly, too. So much for his death-or-glory reputation.

This pretty much cements what I'm trying to get across to you, is that Ulfric wasn't going to die in the name of honor or anything of the sort. Neither was the Empire.

• The Imperial City is retaken and Titus II's decision to withdraw from it the previous year is vindicated. Despite this resounding victory, however, the Empire is exhausted and unable to continue the war. Realizing this, Titus II seeks to negotiate with the Aldmeri Dominion to end the war.

Said it yourself.

 

[jaredb]

After siding with the stormcloaks very early, i soon came to regret joining the stormcloak cause. The jarl of solitude really persuaded me that the White Gold Concordant was a necessary evil..........also Ulfric relentless ego centered view of the world really began to rub me the wrong way after a while

 

[JClarke1953]

People who lead can become so distracted, they don't see/hear what's going on in the background. Which is why the Imperial leadership was probably taken, and used by the Thalmor.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

yes god before the people.

I think "god before the Thalmor" might have been more eagerly welcomed...

 

[JClarke1953]

And as far as Talos being/becoming a Diety? Why not? How many human's have been given Sainthood over the decade's? I'm not Catholic, I just "see" that it could happen.

 

[jaredb]

lots of major religions turn flesh & blood folks into gods including Christianity, Buddhism & a great number of classical faiths, why should the people of Tamriel & Skyrim be any different?

 

[Shadow King]

I think "god before the Thalmor" might have been more eagerly welcomed...

a skeever before the thalmor lol.

 

[Moris]

a skeever before the thalmor lol.

and pearls before swine...

 

[Anwrise888]

Bros before hoes...

 

[Volanere]

Thalmor before anyone else!

 

[Volanere]

Im happy to see this thread got as many post as it did, i knew it would be a controversial subject and everyones input has only educated me more.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Im happy to see this thread got as many post as it did, i knew it would be a controversial subject and everyones input has only educated me more.

It's always encouraging to see a friendly Thalmor. Gives us all hope!

 

[Volanere]

It's always encouraging to see a friendly Thalmor. Gives us all hope!

Thalmor are friendly you just gotta get on there good side, and not worship talos.

 

[Raijin]

You literally brought the gods into this discussion and said quote "Mede didn't have the gods on his side" which is in itself a horrible argument. You slam Mede for not being able to summon Akatosh as Martin did, bringing religion into this argument. Mede II didn't have the amulet, thus he didn't have anything to show for it.

Just because I said that Titus didn't have the gods on his side doesn't mean that I slammed him for not being able to summon Akatosh like Martin did. I don't expect him to have that kind of power because he does not have in his possession the amulet of the kings. It was destroyed a long time ago.

So you go from insisting the Empire is weak and cowardly for surrendering towards the end of the war to calling them stupid and disorganized for not surrendering at the beginning? Are you serious right now? There's a vast difference between agreeing to the terms before a war that would ravage a province and it's people and after. There's nothing that implied Mede didn't take the Thalmor seriously, in fact during his reign the growing Dominion was of great concern for the Empire.

Base on uesp Titus Mede II is ranked as an Assassin, right? So where does his skills as an assassin take place, and to be used as his advantages? An assassins are suppose to be highly intelligent, and study their victims prior to killing them. How come Mede II skip that part and essentially allowed the Thalmor to make a "surprised" attack on the Imperial city thus taking it over for a brief of time? So yeah Titus having the rank of an assassin makes him credibly stupid for not taking caution.

Mede rejected it knowing there'd be war, it was stated in the ultimatum refusal meant conflict.

A war that he could not win.

So you're openly admitting Ulfric is playing into the Thalmor's hand here?

Actually it started with Titus Mede II signing the WCG It was to stir up the beehive, and it worked. Points for the Thalmor

I'm bringing facts and reason here while you're bringing opinionated and biased information.

No I'm not. I tend to favor what I read in the lore.

I've already laid out the parallels here and will do so again. Ulfric is not a blood thirsty monster and did not want his men to die? How is that situation any different from Mede wanting to end the suffering of his own people? and if Ulfric didn't want his people to die, surely he wouldn't surrender where execution was assured?

Because Ulfric is just a Jarl of Eastmarch who had a small group of bodyguards while on the other hand Titus had Skyrim/High rock/Cyoriil and Hammerfell to his side.Theirs a slight difference at the time.

 

[Raijin]

Thalmor are friendly you just gotta get on there good side, and not worship talos.

I can worship whatever gods I want to worship, and theirs nothing that you can do about it either.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Thalmor are friendly you just gotta get on there good side, and not worship talos.

But...but...I have made friends with Ondolemar. I thought that'd count for something.

 

[Raijin]

But...but...I have made friends with Ondolemar. I thought that'd count for something.

Ondolemar is Thalmor. They're all the same I tell you. Every single one of them. I be careful with that one because hes up to something... Just like the Thalmor agent that was at the college of Winterhold... well until I took care of him that is