What gender are the dragons? (RP)

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Take a look at this. Dragon Life
I looked at it. Not going to lie, pretty interesting. But not exactly the Skyrim dragons. The dragons in skyrim have personalities and such. They are almost human in a sense. Since the game doesn't really go over how dragons mate, then it really is up to the role player on how they want the dragons to mate. However that sight is quite interesting, may read some more of it later. :)
 
***points at the name of the forum***

The dragons of the Elder Scrolls universe don't mate and the OP was asking about the dragons of the Elder Scrolls universe. The book is found in the game and is part of the lore.
How can you say that when you don't know yourself? Other than the "There be Dragons" book, nothing else in the game points to dragons mating habits. If they didn't mate, then how would their race continue? I get they live forever, but also did they not also kill each other over land and territory? I think that would put a dense number out of the dragon population. And I don't think Akatosh just *pops* them out of nowhere. So unless you can find proof other than the There Be Dragons book (which I could point out how they haven't found any eggs of Skyrim's dragons) then I'm sure everyone here will refuse to blive they don't mate. It's not logical to think they don't.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Other than the "There be Dragons" book, nothing else in the game points to dragons mating habits.
You don't need anything else. Generally speaking when there's game content that asserts something about the Elder Scrolls universe and there's no other game content to cast doubt on those assertions it becomes adopted as part of the Elder Scrolls lore. A lot of the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe is single sourced. It would be nice if the developers put multiple sources for every notable aspect of Tamriel but they haven't afforded us that luxury which is why lore resources like the Imperial Library and the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages incorporate single sourced information about the Elder Scrolls Universe as long as it is noteworthy, can be conveyed from the perspective of an anonymous citizen of Tamriel, and isn't contradicted by anything else in the game series.
If they didn't mate, then how would their race continue?
The common understanding is that they're immortal so they don't need to mate. Immortals in general don't appear to mate in the Elder Scrolls universe (Daedra, Aedra etc.). When they do it's in abstract terms that transcend traditional notions of mating such as when Anu and Nir mated and Nir gave birth to Creation.
And I don't think Akatosh just *pops* them out of nowhere.
Why not? He's a god and the notion of a god creating life from nothing other than its power is hardly a novel concept. Akatosh created the dragons in his own image. Does that sound anything like another religious text that you might be familiar with?
So unless you can find proof other than the There Be Dragons book (which I could point out how they haven't found any eggs of Skyrim's dragons) then I'm sure everyone here will refuse to blive they don't mate. It's not logical to think they don't.
How does the absence of evidence to support the notion that Dragon's mate (i.e. eggs) in any way support the notion that they do mate? That's a completely illogical inference to make as the absence of eggs supports the opposite notion. Most people accepted that Dragons of the Elder Scrolls universe don't mate which is why the thread only continued on with posts in jest after the book was mentioned.

There is a series of books found in the game Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall whose contents are published at the Imperial Library and UESP called King Edward where one of the characters states that, much like elves but even more so, Dragons breed slowly because they are so long lived. However, Marilyn Wasserman, the actual real life author who wrote that book for Daggerfall, has stated that the King Edward series should be regarded as historical novels, not official lore or history. So while the existence of the book itself is lore, the contents of the book have been qualfied by the author as not being lore. In addition we know that the notion that elves breed slower than humans was dispelled in the Pocket Guide to the Empire so it's fair to assume that the fictional author of the book, who was anonymous, was ignorant about a great many things when he or she wrote the novels including the nature of Dragons.
 

Chowder138

Proud member of PAHAAA.
The common understanding is that they're immortal so they don't need to mate. Immortals in general don't appear to mate in the Elder Scrolls universe (Daedra, Aedra etc.). When they do it's in abstract terms that transcend traditional notions of mating such as when Anu and Nir mated and Nir gave birth to Creation.

This. The fact that they're immortal doesn't just mean that they don't age. It means that in the case that they die, they come back. Thus, mating = unnecessary. Except for rare cases (the Dragonborn's arrival, for instance) the population is self sustaining, because the amount of dragons dying (usually 0) is the same as the amount of dragons being born (also 0).
 
You don't need anything else. Generally speaking when there's game content that asserts something about the Elder Scrolls universe and there's no other game content to cast doubt on those assertions it becomes adopted as part of the Elder Scrolls lore. A lot of the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe is single sourced. It would be nice if the developers put multiple sources for every notable aspect of Tamriel but they haven't afforded us that luxury which is why lore resources like the Imperial Library and the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages incorporate single sourced information about the Elder Scrolls Universe as long as it is noteworthy, can be conveyed from the perspective of an anonymous citizen of Tamriel, and isn't contradicted by anything else in the game series.
The common understanding is that they're immortal so they don't need to mate. Immortals in general don't appear to mate in the Elder Scrolls universe (Daedra, Aedra etc.). When they do it's in abstract terms that transcend traditional notions of mating such as when Anu and Nir mated and Nir gave birth to Creation.
Why not? He's a god and the notion of a god creating life from nothing other than its power is hardly a novel concept. Akatosh created the dragons in his own image. Does that sound anything like another religious text that you might be familiar with?
How does the absence of evidence to support the notion that Dragon's mate (i.e. eggs) in any way support the notion that they do mate? That's a completely illogical inference to make as the absence of eggs supports the opposite notion. Most people accepted that Dragons of the Elder Scrolls universe don't mate which is why the thread only continued on with posts in jest after the book was mentioned.

There is a series of books found in the game Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall whose contents are published at the Imperial Library and UESP called King Edward where one of the characters states that, much like elves but even more so, Dragons breed slowly because they are so long lived. However, Marilyn Wasserman, the actual real life author who wrote that book for Daggerfall, has stated that the King Edward series should be regarded as historical novels, not official lore or history. So while the existence of the book itself is lore, the contents of the book have been qualfied by the author as not being lore. In addition we know that the notion that elves breed slower than humans was dispelled in the Pocket Guide to the Empire so it's fair to assume that the fictional author of the book, who was anonymous, was ignorant about a great many things when he or she wrote the novels including the nature of Dragons.
Okay fair enough with the book. However if one were to write an RP or fanfic they could easily get away with putin female dragons in the story. If the player comes across the book, he reads it, it says "So far we have not found any of the dragon eggs YET." Yet is the key word. For all that scholar knows, the dragons could give live birth (highly doubtable though). Or the mother and father destroy the egg shells for some reason after the eggs hatch. Easy explanation for stretching the lore a bit. The only reason I want female dragons is because I based my Dragonborn on being the son of a dragon (don't even ask because seeing as you are a lore whore JK ;) you would probably laugh). The main reason I'm not a big lore lover, is probably becuse the only ELder Scroll game I have played is Skyrim. :O OMG I know he is a blasphemer! I started playing only because I love dragons and the Argonians were the coolest things ever.

Dragons lives are technically like Orcs, they don't grow old and die. They have to be bested by another dragon. However it seems their power does wane after a while i.e. Paarthurnax was probably stronger back in his glory days under Alduin's command. So when a dragon reaches a certain age, he probably would be more suseptable to another male taking his land (or having one of his sons killing him so they could inherit the territory from their father).

Now like I said, the dragon population would be down if they could not reproduce. You claim they immortal. Wrong, they are partially immortal. They can still die, and their sould gets absorbed by the dragon who killed him. Also they could be slain by mortals (probably not as reassuring as a dragon absorbing the other one's soul, but he is still dead). So if one dies that is one less from the already pretty low population of dragons. How would he come back to life? Other than Alduin (who the dragonborn kills more or less) raising them up. So the dragons would need some way of keeping the population up. I said earlier in one of my posts that it is possible that the females could have low fertility rate and could give birth to only so many dragons in a life time.

Yes, I am familiar with the saying, "Made in His image", but God does not throw humans out of nowhere on the planet. We reproduce. The reason I say Akatosh wouldn't do that is because for starters what would be the point in that? If he made females he wouldn't have to worry about spawning a new dragon every time one dies! So if there are no females, either Akatosh was retarded, or he had nothing better to do. You know he is just the chief deity of the nine divines, he must not have much going on.

Now I get that lore is a major part of writing fanfics (and such) but this is something that all depends upon the writer. Until Bethesda gives us SOLID evidence (other than some ruminescence of some scholar who made assumptions in one book) that there aren't any female dragons, then I refuse to belive they don't mate. However, even if they did say there weren't any females...I would and will still add them in my fanfic.
 
This. The fact that they're immortal doesn't just mean that they don't age. It means that in the case that they die, they come back. Thus, mating = unnecessary. Except for rare cases (the Dragonborn's arrival, for instance) the population is self sustaining, because the amount of dragons dying (usually 0) is the same as the amount of dragons being born (also 0).
What do you mean "0" die? Dragons slaughtered each other over land and territory. How would the dragons repopulate? Probably females. They absorb each other's souls, they don't just come back. Also, they aren't immortal, if they were they wouldn't be able to die. They are partially immortal, so that makes them sorta like demi-gods, but even demi-gods can die. So if you throw death into the equation then you are going to need to repopulate if your numbers start to dwindle. Every life form has a reproductive tool, everyone except bacteria and I don't think the dragons are that.
 

Lizzifer

Watch out for hop-ons.
It's kind of hard tell if someone is joking or not when you're reading text. Unless you hear their tone, there was no way of knowing if that was a joke. Just saying...

Fair enough! Don't worry, I know dinosaurs had wienises and bajingas.
 

Chowder138

Proud member of PAHAAA.
What do you mean "0" die? Dragons slaughtered each other over land and territory. How would the dragons repopulate? Probably females. They absorb each other's souls, they don't just come back. Also, they aren't immortal, if they were they wouldn't be able to die. They are partially immortal, so that makes them sorta like demi-gods, but even demi-gods can die. So if you throw death into the equation then you are going to need to repopulate if your numbers start to dwindle. Every life form has a reproductive tool, everyone except bacteria and I don't think the dragons are that.

Oh, sorry. I forgot that dragons are like the Dragonborn in that they absorb eachothers' souls. My bad.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
For all that scholar knows, the dragons could give live birth (highly doubtable though). Or the mother and father destroy the egg shells for some reason after the eggs hatch. Easy explanation for stretching the lore a bit.
That's not stretching the lore. In order to stretch the lore you would have to have some lore to stretch, i.e. start with something in the game content or other information from Bethesda media that supports even the slightest notion that Dragons might mate. What you're suggesting is a complete fabrication and one that contradicts the only game content that addresses whether Dragons mate or not.
You claim they immortal. Wrong, they are partially immortal. They can still die, and their sould gets absorbed by the dragon who killed him.
The fact that they can die under very limited circumstances doesn't mean that they aren't immortal. That's not a characteristic of immortality in the Elder Scrolls universe unique to Dragons. Nir died when she was injured by Padomay shortly after she gave birth to Creation. Further, regardless of the nature of their immortality, you're assuming that they were meant to be perpetual when there's no reason to do so.
Also they could be slain by mortals (probably not as reassuring as a dragon absorbing the other one's soul, but he is still dead).
Those deaths aren't permanent. Their physical body can be destroyed but like the Daedric princes, they can still return to Mundus which is why Alduin is able to bring all of them back. Dragons can only be permanently killed when their soul is absorbed by another Dragon or a Dragonborn. Further there's nothing in the lore to indicate that Dragons fight one another with any frequency. They're not territorial with regards to one another and I have no idea what would make you believe that they are. There's no reason to assume that their population should be permanently down because they don't mate, and remember that in terms of their temporary death, they were hunted down into extinction on the plane of Mundus.
Yes, I am familiar with the saying, "Made in His image", but God does not throw humans out of nowhere on the planet.
I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. According to Genesis, God created Adam from dust and breathed life into him. He made him with his power as Akatosh made the Dragons contrary to your assertion that he wouldn't "pop them out of nowhere".
If he made females he wouldn't have to worry about spawning a new dragon every time one dies!
Why would you assume that he cares about spawning a new Dragon everytime one is permanently killed, either in the sense that he would care enough to bother or that it would be taxing for him to do so? According to the book The Dragon War the priests of the Divines believed it was Akatosh that intervened on behalf of men and gave them the ability to kill Dragons which supports the notion that he wasn't averse to the possibility of the Dragon population dwindling.
So if there are no females, either Akatosh was retarded, or he had nothing better to do. You know he is just the chief deity of the nine divines, he must not have much going on..
This is nonsense. The games give little insight into what the Divines do outside of the plane of Mundus. As such we have no idea what Akatosh does with the majority of his time, or what his agenda or priorities are.
Now I get that lore is a major part of writing fanfics (and such) but this is something that all depends upon the writer. Until Bethesda gives us SOLID evidence (other than some ruminescence of some scholar who made assumptions in one book) that there aren't any female dragons, then I refuse to belive they don't mate. However, even if they did say there weren't any females...I would and will still add them in my fanfic.
Lore isn't a hard science, if you don't consider it solid evidence of what it purports to show you then you may as well discount a huge portion of what is generally accepted as lore. You have no basis to assert that Torhal Bjorik was making assumptions in There Be Dragons. You've already professed your own bias which is the only reason you don't want to accept that Dragons of the Elder Scrolls universe don't mate but the game simply doesn't support that notion that they do.
 

JClarke1953

Well-Known Member
Since Dragon's are a large reptile of sorts, I believe as some reptile's in RL can change gender's if there's a lack of one. Also, their "unit's" are more than likely within their bodies, such as are reptile's in RL.

Discerning gender of reptile's is about as tricky as finding it in some bird's (who are believed to be descendant's of reptile's).

Thing is, there are several species on earth besides Reptile's and Amphibian's that can change gender when there is a shortage of one. Also, some don't need another, a mate so to speak. Parthenogenesis I believe is the word I was looking for.
 
That's not stretching the lore. In order to stretch the lore you would have to have some lore to stretch, i.e. start with something in the game content or other information from Bethesda media that supports even the slightest notion that Dragons might mate. What you're suggesting is a complete fabrication and one that contradicts the only game content that addresses whether Dragons mate or not.
The fact that they can die under very limited circumstances doesn't mean that they aren't immortal. That's not a characteristic of immortality in the Elder Scrolls universe unique to Dragons. Nir died when she was injured by Padomay shortly after she gave birth to Creation. Further, regardless of the nature of their immortality, you're assuming that they were meant to be perpetual when there's no reason to do so.
Those deaths aren't permanent. Their physical body can be destroyed but like the Daedric princes, they can still return to Mundus which is why Alduin is able to bring all of them back. Dragons can only be permanently killed when their soul is absorbed by another Dragon or a Dragonborn. Further there's nothing in the lore to indicate that Dragons fight one another with any frequency. They're not territorial with regards to one another and I have no idea what would make you believe that they are. There's no reason to assume that their population should be permanently down because they don't mate, and remember that in terms of their temporary death, they were hunted down into extinction on the plane of Mundus.
I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. According to Genesis, God created Adam from dust and breathed life into him. He made him with his power as Akatosh made the Dragons contrary to your assertion that he wouldn't "pop them out of nowhere".
Why would you assume that he cares about spawning a new Dragon everytime one is permanently killed, either in the sense that he would care enough to bother or that it would be taxing for him to do so? According to the book The Dragon War the priests of the Divines believed it was Akatosh that intervened on behalf of men and gave them the ability to kill Dragons which supports the notion that he wasn't averse to the possibility of the Dragon population dwindling.
This is nonsense. The games give little insight into what the Divines do outside of the plane of Mundus. As such we have no idea what Akatosh does with the majority of his time, or what his agenda or priorities are.
Lore isn't a hard science, if you don't consider it solid evidence of what it purports to show you then you may as well discount a huge portion of what is generally accepted as lore. You have no basis to assert that Torhal Bjorik was making assumptions in There Be Dragons. You've already professed your own bias which is the only reason you don't want to accept that Dragons of the Elder Scrolls universe don't mate but the game simply doesn't support that notion that they do.

There is lore that dragons killed each other over land. Have you ever played Dawnguard? The dragon Durnehviir says that dragons killed each other over small slices of land and that said battles were mostly (if not always) fatal. Also, if they were hunted down by mortal who didn't absorb their souls, then wouldn't they have been alive before Alduin's return? The blades may have had a few dragonborns but I doubt they had enough to destroy the entire dragon poulation.

But my point was God doesn't just pop humans into existence anymore. He did that with Adam and then took a rib (It hink it was a rib so stop me if I'm wrong) from Adam and made Eve. The only human that came from just dust was Adam and no one else. I think the same thing happened with dragon kind. (however just an assumption)

Okay I know when i have been beat. I can't argure against the facts of the game. However i just feel like my question is unanswered without Bethesda answering it more clearly. I'm not puting my faith in just one book in the game that is one scholar. However you did give me run for my money and fair argument. Oh well, it makes me feel alot better when i kill a dragon. Not that I like to kill dragons though...

Anyway, my story wouldn't make sense without female dragons and I'm just going to add that one falsehood (and trust me, I have thought it through on how it could work). Besides, there are some people who like the idea of female dragons being in the game. Question though. Would you WANT female dragons in the game if they were to change that one piece of lore? no judgement I'm just curious.
 

Chowder138

Proud member of PAHAAA.
Since Dragon's are a large reptile of sorts, I believe as some reptile's in RL can change gender's if there's a lack of one. Also, their "unit's" are more than likely within their bodies, such as are reptile's in RL.

Discerning gender of reptile's is about as tricky as finding it in some bird's (who are believed to be descendant's of reptile's).

Thing is, there are several species on earth besides Reptile's and Amphibian's that can change gender when there is a shortage of one. Also, some don't need another, a mate so to speak. Parthenogenesis I believe is the word I was looking for.

This too. I know of at least one species of lizard (forgot the name) where every new lizard is born female. Thus, some must change genders. I don't see why Dragons wouldn't be able to as well, considering the similarity of species.

That is, assuming they need mate at all, as Dagmar has pointed out.
 

Chowder138

Proud member of PAHAAA.
Okay I know when i have been beat. I can't argure against the facts of the game. However i just feel like my question is unanswered without Bethesda answering it more clearly. I'm not puting my faith in just one book in the game that is one scholar. However you did give me run for my money and fair argument. Oh well, it makes me feel alot better when i kill a dragon. Not that I like to kill dragons though...

I think it's already been said somewhere in the thread that one book on the topic of dragons is evidence and lore enough. If it's in the game, it's a fair chance it's true. The books are in the game so we can learn the lore, so I doubt Bethesda would fictate (not sure if that's a word) this one.

Anyway, it's big of you to admit defeat like that. I wish more people did that.
 
I think it's already been said somewhere in the thread that one book on the topic of dragons is evidence and lore enough. If it's in the game, it's a fair chance it's true. The books are in the game so we can learn the lore, so I doubt Bethesda would fictate (not sure if that's a word) this one.

Anyway, it's big of you to admit defeat like that. I wish more people did that.
Thanks, and I wish that too. I also wish that Bethesda made female dragons but it looks like it's up to me to do that in my fanfic, even if it means stretching the lore out of shape just a bit. Anyway, I can accept in the game that there are no female dragons. However I like to pretend there are (eh I'm imaginative). That's what a fanfic is for I geuss. Adding things that aren't there ans making your own story with the universe.
 

JClarke1953

Well-Known Member
Well, remember Alligator's and Crocodile's lay egg's, then pile stuff like leave's and dirt on them (some Sea Turtle's as well). And if the temperature is within certain parameter's, the egg's will hatch all male, or, all female. The larger reprtile's also seem to "know", as they will clear some of the debris off the nest, or add more. So, perhaps they can sense what gender is needed to keep the species populated.

And, do Dragon's lay egg's, or bear live young? (Hah Bethesda! Answer THAT! Lol!). And if either, then where are the nest's. what are they made of?
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Anyway, my story wouldn't make sense without female dragons and I'm just going to add that one falsehood (and trust me, I have thought it through on how it could work). Besides, there are some people who like the idea of female dragons being in the game. Question though. Would you WANT female dragons in the game if they were to change that one piece of lore? no judgement I'm just curious.
While gender is generally associated with reproduction, it's secondarily associated with feminine and masculine characterisitcs and self identification so you can still have a female dragon, just not in the conventional sense (think about Smurfette - in the cartoon series Smurfs didn't mate or reproduce either but no one questioned that she was female). It's no different than the fact that everyone refers to Alduin as a male even though he's no less genderless from a procreational point of view.
 
While gender is generally associated with reproduction, it's secondarily associated with feminine and masculine characterisitcs and self identification so you can still have a female dragon, just not in the conventional sense (think about Smurfette - in the cartoon series Smurfs didn't mate or reproduce either but no one questioned that she was female). It's no different than the fact that everyone refers to Alduin as a male even though he's no less genderless from a procreational point of view.
HOLY CRAP! I was just about to suggest that same thing! Have dragons be able to have mates but not mate. For example, Odahviing pretty much having a wife (mate). So it could work, and possibly the dragons have reproductive organs but are just used for pleasure between the two mates and not for reproduction. Although i do like imagining Odahviing as a father. Also a dragon would have to be able to mate, or else my dragonborn would have never been born. Anyway I could live without the mating thing, my concern was probably more with if there were females. Which there is a possibility.

I geuss we coud call this semi-agreed?
 
Well, remember Alligator's and Crocodile's lay egg's, then pile stuff like leave's and dirt on them (some Sea Turtle's as well). And if the temperature is within certain parameter's, the egg's will hatch all male, or, all female. The larger reprtile's also seem to "know", as they will clear some of the debris off the nest, or add more. So, perhaps they can sense what gender is needed to keep the species populated.

And, do Dragon's lay egg's, or bear live young? (Hah Bethesda! Answer THAT! Lol!). And if either, then where are the nest's. what are they made of?
Who knows? If dragons lay eggs, then I would think they nests are just a straw or hay pile where the ggs could sit and be warm. Then when the hachlings hatch, maybe the eggs become brittle or something and they disitergrate. Leaving no evidence of eggs.
 

Soulfire

Member
While I'm aware that there is no evidence of female dragons or mating in Skyrim, I have to wonder why it's so far-fetched for them to mate when there is so much cross-fertility, or at least speculated across multiple races. Racial Phylogeny mentioned that even Daedra are capable of mating, though the result is rather unknown or anything.
While Aedra are technically genderless, and the only lore states that dragons can't breed, how did they survive? Their bodies were destroyed on mass scales, and when their souls are absorbed, they are gone forever. If this is true, then the dragons are destined to go extinct, since they can die but can't reproduce? Given that my dragonborn never kills living dragons unless required by the main quest, I remain concerned for the dragons if they can't breed, since I don't believe the Divines are capable of miracles such as making a new dragon appear or something. Daedra are the ones who might do such a thing, not Aedra.
Just my opinion, though. I really doubt Bethesda is willing to give any more information on this subject.
 

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