United States of America and Gun Control and Ban of High Powered Guns Discussion

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feliciano182

Well-Known Member
Feliciano, I have 2 questions for you, and I want you to answer honestly, without evading or changing the subject.

To my knowledge, I have answered every question you posed of me, so I resent this comment.

Are you a gun owner?

Nope, and it doesn't matter, I don't have to use cocaine to support drug legalization.

Fundamentally, the patriot act was about exchanging some freedoms for security. How can you be so against it, yet be so for banning certain weapons, which is fundamentally the same thing; exchanging some freedoms for security?

The Patriot Act was the solution a group of antisocial freaks came up with to deter the threat of terrorism, nobody that has any respect for law, life and human rights is in favor of negating habeas corpus and approving of all methods of torture.

As to your second point, I personally do not consider banning as THE solution of gun control, I've stated that twice here, in spite of your indifference; however, I frankly could not care if assault rifles were banned from public use because they don't serve any purpose, and if that infringes some of the guidelines of a document written several decades ago, then as a society, the US needs to sit down and rationally consider the option of rewriting that part, that kind of liberty has it's consequences.

Maybe you're unaware that acts of treason or terrorism forfeit your rights as a citizen.

Even if you're just a suspect of terrorism ?

Rationalization, the cancer of modern society.

And me using deadly force to protect my home or family from a break in is cause to take away my guns? I truly feel sorry for your family then.

Don't mind me friend, I'm not the one who doesn't have their guns somewhere safe enough for robbers to be unable to take them.
 

Medea

The Shadow Queen
There are aspects of gun control I agree with, such as outlawing extended clips and drum magazines. The only purpose for extended clips is to slaughter as many people as possible. That is not a gun rights issue, at least it shouldn't be.

But, I don't believe in gun banning. Never have. Never will. Is it right that in a democracy the only ones that have access to assault rifles are the government, the criminals and the police? NO. Remember, By the People, For the People.

Do criminals buy guns legally? NO. So banning guns won't make a difference.

America is simply a violent culture. That's why we have so many acts of violence in our society. It has nothing to do with guns. Take all the guns away. Know what's gonna happen next? Schools will be bombed and poison gassed. Everything you need is at the corner hardware store or farmer's market. And don't think for a second that MORE casualties won't be possible.

I would also like to take a second to talk about gun banning in the UK. Many of you seem to think that it was a good idea. It wasn't. What happened to the British the second they took their guns away in 1996? The cameras started to go up everywhere. Big Brother is everywhere over there. Do you actually think that's going to fly in the States? And crime rates related to guns went down after they took the guns away....slightly.... but other crime rates soared up to levels unheard of before that, such as stabbings and armed robbery (because the criminals were still packing). It's also surprising that when people throw the statistics of gun murder in our faces, that they fail to mention the U.S. has a population of 320,000,000+.

Switzerland. Enough said.

Gun politics in Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm also surprised how many people say: "Well I don't mind if they keep semi-automatic hunting rifles, but they need to get rid of semi-automatic assault rifles." :rolleyes: .......... DO YOU REALIZE A HUNTING RIFLE IS MUCH MORE POWERFUL AND DEADLY THAN AN ASSAULT RIFLE?! Hunting rifles are high caliber, high velocity guns designed to kill large game that weigh as much as a car! Many hunting rifles hold 8-12 shots and can fire as fast as any semi-automatic assault rifle, with more accuracy and far more power. Those are the guns the cops are afraid to go up against, more than anything.

Here's a little fact that needs to be mentioned as well. No one has said anything about it in the media yet, because it's not "politically correct". America is a multi-cultural, multi-racial society. Gang culture leads to a lot of our gun violence, as well as the media's frightening ability to ignore it all when it happens. In a country like Great Britain, minority numbers are so small that the minorities have no culture of their own. They are integrated into their society. Am I racist for pointing out the facts?? Count the number of black friends you have. I'm sure I have more. You can blame gang violence on anything you want. For example, suppression of the african-american and latino races in America. I'm just pointing out the facts.

Here's a little scenario for you:

You're a psycho killer that wants to go on a mass shooting spree and end it all. To the east, there is a small village where every person is armed with guns and are willing to defend themselves. To the west, there is a small village where they have banned every citizen from owning firearms and no one can defend themselves. Which path are you going to take?
 

nordicowboy

Must be my Nord blood......
Even if you're just a suspect of terrorism?

Rationalization, the cancer of modern society.



Don't mind me friend, I'm not the one who doesn't have their guns somewhere safe enough for robbers to be unable to take them.
Maybe you could go back and read that I said "act", and then look that word up if you aren't sure what it means. Also, my guns are secure but criminals generally don't have psychic powers that tell them that before they break in. A gun locked in a safe doesn't do any good if someone kicks your door in, but you could always ask them politely to wait while you put in your combination (though I'll leave that theory for you to test).
 

feliciano182

Well-Known Member
I will speak about a couple of things I feel are worthy of mention in this topic:

For starters, I don't personally believe that the topic of gun control will ever go further unless one side is willing to accept a few things, if only for the sake of argument; personally, I feel like I can go little from here because some people will just defend their stance as they wish to do, so while I may come back for the sake of debating, there's little that anyone can do to further resolve this issue merely by discussing it, and thus, if anybody wants to actually do anything, I would suggest taking it beyond this forum, I personally would, but I'm not from the US.

Now the second part is something that I feel needs to be adressed and inmediately shot down this exact moment, not only because I feel particularly offended by the idea that people are still thinking with this type of frame of mind, but because it's quite frankly, an issue of morality:

Here's a little fact that needs to be mentioned as well. No one has said anything about it in the media yet, because it's not "politically correct". America is a multi-cultural, multi-racial society. Gang culture leads to a lot of our gun violence, as well as the media's frightening ability to ignore it all when it happens. In a country like Great Britain, minority numbers are so small that the minorities have no culture of their own. They are integrated into their society. Am I racist for pointing out the facts?? Count the number of black friends you have. I'm sure I have more. You can blame gang violence on anything you want. For example, suppression of the african-american and latino races in America. I'm just pointing out the facts.

A nation's multi-culturalism and diversity of races main product is not gang culture, to somehow believe that this is true, is racism, why ? Because to think that the vast presence of non-white, non-american people inevitable leads to the formation of violent groups, is ignorantly stereotyping large numbers of people that have nothing to do with said violence in the US.

I mean, clearly a complete neglect of education in several sectors of the country is not at fault here right ? When there's absurd degrees of poverty in a first world nation, that can't possibly have a hand in creating antisocial youth, when there's illegal drug culture and a violent market that perpetuates itself by recruiting young people that have flunked from their substandard schools, it's obviously a problem of having "too many latinos" right ?

Aside from that, are there no indians in Great Britain ? Are there no pakistani and kenyan communities in England ? Their presence may be small, but they still exist, some of them preserve some of their traditions as cultural heritage from the country they came from, that they haven't manifested it in violence is not indicative that "they don't have culture of their own".

Sometimes I can't believe it's 2013, it seems impossible and absurd to me that people, to this day and age, would think this way, I can EVEN understand folk defending their guns, because to some extent it's similar to me defending my videogames, but not this.
 

Cylos

The Last Dragonborn
Piers Morgan had invited Alex Jones, it was manipulative, now whilst I almost despise Morgan I have to agree with his opinions on gun laws. This is my opinion as a British citizen and I don't wish to offend any forum-goers.
  • Gun culture is too glorified in America
  • Weapons and attachments with the purpose to kill or cause excessive damage- such as extended clips should be regulated.
  • Handguns should be allowed for American citizens. There should be a greater ID system, especially regarding assault and hunting rifles.
  • Your commitment to the Second Amendment is commendable, it's nice to see such devotion to politics- however I feel that some American citizens have an irrational fear of the state and are merely paranoid.
 

Crooksin

Glue Sniffer
A nation's multi-culturalism and diversity of races main product is not gang culture, to somehow believe that this is true, is racism, why ? Because to think that the vast presence of non-white, non-american people inevitable leads to the formation of violent groups, is ignorantly stereotyping large numbers of people that have nothing to do with said violence in the US.

I mean, clearly a complete neglect of education in several sectors of the country is not at fault here right ? When there's absurd degrees of poverty in a first world nation, that can't possibly have a hand in creating antisocial youth, when there's illegal drug culture and a violent market that perpetuates itself by recruiting young people that have flunked from their substandard schools, it's obviously a problem of having "too many latinos" right ?

Aside from that, are there no indians in Great Britain ? Are there no pakistani and kenyan communities in England ? Their presence may be small, but they still exist, some of them preserve some of their traditions as cultural heritage from the country they came from, that they haven't manifested it in violence is not indicative that "they don't have culture of their own".

Sometimes I can't believe it's 2013, it seems impossible and absurd to me that people, to this day and age, would think this way, I can EVEN understand folk defending their guns, because to some extent it's similar to me defending my videogames, but not this.

I don't think that's what shadow said at all. It's not being racist, its more so being realistic. Like, the majority of gang affiliated individuals are of some ethnic background, am I being racist? No, I'm being realistic. There are much more African Americans in the prisons system then there are whites, am I being racist? No, I'm being realistic. The truth is if you put several different cultures together in one pot (I.E America termed as a "melting pot" country, so is Canada to some extent) you get violence, its human nature. They separate themselves from each other and on top of the last 300 years of oppression, its not a good mix and I'm not necessarily blaming them for it either. Even in Toronto, the most violent gangs are African American. I'm not saying every African American is in a gang (that would be racial stereotyping), I'm merely pointing out whats in front of me. People throw around the racist card too much.

Melting pot and the vast population with the added fact of American society is why I don't think gun abolishment would work. On one hand you get the patriotic purists taking 300 year old men's words straight to heart without even thinking of the circumstances in which the reasoning behind what they said made sense and on another you have a bunch of unarmed civilians ready for the picking of the next mass-killer. With that said, the current system is pretty much a joke. Maybe YOU are responsible with your guns, but there are many people who were not taught (or think) the same and still can and do get access to guns. That's the very problem with it all. Looking to Switzerland for the gun control problem in America isn't the right answer either, what works for them will probably not work for US. Their society is totally different than America, even North America for that matter and I would bet it has to do with the fact they are not really a multicultural country, amongst other things.
 

Medea

The Shadow Queen
Now the second part is something that I feel needs to be adressed and inmediately shot down this exact moment, not only because I feel particularly offended by the idea that people are still thinking with this type of frame of mind, but because it's quite frankly, an issue of morality:

A nation's multi-culturalism and diversity of races main product is not gang culture, to somehow believe that this is true, is racism, why ? Because to think that the vast presence of non-white, non-american people inevitable leads to the formation of violent groups, is ignorantly stereotyping large numbers of people that have nothing to do with said violence in the US.

I mean, clearly a complete neglect of education in several sectors of the country is not at fault here right ? When there's absurd degrees of poverty in a first world nation, that can't possibly have a hand in creating antisocial youth, when there's illegal drug culture and a violent market that perpetuates itself by recruiting young people that have flunked from their substandard schools, it's obviously a problem of having "too many latinos" right ?

Aside from that, are there no indians in Great Britain ? Are there no pakistani and kenyan communities in England ? Their presence may be small, but they still exist, some of them preserve some of their traditions as cultural heritage from the country they came from, that they haven't manifested it in violence is not indicative that "they don't have culture of their own".

Sometimes I can't believe it's 2013, it seems impossible and absurd to me that people, to this day and age, would think this way, I can EVEN understand folk defending their guns, because to some extent it's similar to me defending my videogames, but not this.

I'm not a racist. I'm as liberal as you get except when it comes to gun control and being politically correct. I believe in equality for everyone. I lived near St. Louis, Missouri for the majority of my life, and I have black friends that live as far away as Detroit, Michigan. And let me tell you, they would agree with everything I said in that paragraph.

I would also like to point out that in your third paragraph above, you reinforced my point. I never said that gang culture was violent simply because of the color of the gang members' skin. When you grow up in a neighborhood like many minorities are forced to grow up in, some of them have no choice but to join the local gang for protection. The environment they live in is simply survivalist and violent. Is it all their fault? No. But is it all the fault of the "white establishment"? No.

Racists believe that they cannot be helped and they are going to be violent simply because it's in their nature. I think that's bullplops, but I also do not let my ideology blind me. Look at this, and keep in mind that african americans make up 11-12% of the population. btw, I did NOT get this from a racist website.

Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Trends by race

My whole point in my previous post was that America is simply a violent society. Gang violence, particularly black-on-black shootings, make up about 50% of our homicides by firearms. It's an indisputable fact. I'm not saying it's only because of the color of their skin. It's environment, living in poverty, etc., like you said above.
 

Omega Dragon

Active Member
Allow me to add something that just came across the wire.

NEW YORK (WABC) -- A troubling oversight has been found within New York State's sweeping new gun laws.


The ban on having high-capacity magazines, as it's written, would also include law enforcement officers.
Magazines with more than seven rounds will be illegal under the new law when that part takes effect in March.

As the statute is currently written, it does not exempt law enforcement officers.


Nearly every law enforcement agency in the state carries hand guns that have a 15 round capacity.
A spokesman for the governor's office called Eyewitness News to say, "We are still working out some details of the law and the exemption will be included, currently no police officer is in violation."


The Patrolman's Benevolent Association President released a statement saying, "The PBA is actively working to enact changes to this law that will provide the appropriate exemptions from the law for active and retired law enforcement officers."

State Senator Eric Adams, a former NYPD Captain, told us he's going to push for an amendment next week to exempt police officers from the high-capacity magazine ban. In his words, "You can't give more ammo to the criminals"


Additions to be made to gun laws for law enforcement | 7online.com

But it's okay, right? They are the law enforcement, so they shouldn't be bound by the same laws as us. Right?

Require law enforcement and military to adhere to the same gun laws and restrictions placed on US Citizens | We the People: Your Voice in Our Government

Like I said earlier, everyone should put their money (or fingers in this case) where their mouth is. Sign the linked petition.
 

feliciano182

Well-Known Member
I'm not a racist. I'm as liberal as you get except when it comes to gun control and being politically correct. I believe in equality for everyone. I lived near St. Louis, Missouri for the majority of my life, and I have black friends that live as far away as Detroit, Michigan. And let me tell you, they would agree with everything I said in that paragraph.

I don't think I'll acomplish anything in this topic by trying to explain to you why is that what you said, as what you and your friends think, is racist, suffice it to say that if you believe it isn't, then you have a shallow deffinition of what racism means, many people think it only involves active despise or negative speech against a specific ethnic group/s, when prejudice and stereotyping fit that picture just as well, your implication that multi-culturalism is somehow linked to gang culture and violence involves a lot of prejudice and stereotyping, if not a completely misguided notion of causality.

I would also like to point out that in your third paragraph above, you reinforced my point. I never said that gang culture was violent simply because of the color of the gang members' skin. When you grow up in a neighborhood like many minorities are forced to grow up in, some of them have no choice but to join the local gang for protection.

You brought forward multi-culturalism and the diversity of races as a point of discussion, which you directly linked with gang culture and violence, you then proceeded to mention how minorities "don't have a culture of their own" when in such small numbers like it is the case with Great Britain.

I may be mixing up the terms "racism" and "xenophobia", but it does nothing to diminish how prejudiced and bigoted your post was.


The environment they live in is simply survivalist and violent. Is it all their fault? No. But is it all the fault of the "white establishment"? No.
I never said anything about any "white establishment", I may have rushed myself with my "latino" comment (which actually referenced culture, not ethnicity) but I never referenced the ethnicity of those that are truly responsible for the problem of gang violence.
What I said is that, wether it's in the US, Uruguay, Indonesia or Egypt, it's a matter where those responsible are public officials and representatives that don't provide adequate services to the poorest, less favored sectors of society, as a complete of lack of policy to support education and work oportunity.
To somehow link multi-culturalism and ethnicity into this matter, is nothing short of medieval thought, I didn't come here to offend anyone, but by the nine do I find this type of thinking backwards in the year we live in.


Racists believe that they cannot be helped and they are going to be violent simply because it's in their nature. I think that's bullplops, but I also do not let my ideology blind me. Look at this, and keep in mind that african americans make up 11-12% of the population. btw, I did NOT get this from a racist website.

Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Trends by race

You are contradicting yourself, if you believe that it's bullplops that culture and race have nothing to do with gun violence, then why the hell is it even worth mentioning the ethnicity of the offenders regarding any statistic ? NOTHING in those statistics objectively proves that there is a direct casual link between membership or belonging to a minority culture or ethnicity and being prone to violent behavior.

My whole point in my previous post was that America is simply a violent society. Gang violence, particularly black-on-black shootings, make up about 50% of our homicides by firearms. It's an indisputable fact. I'm not saying it's only because of the color of their skin. It's environment, living in poverty, etc., like you said above.

Then that's exactly what needs to be highlighted, and not things like the "example" you gave about Great Britain or bringing up statistics that show absolutely no direct link between race/culture and violence.
 

Medea

The Shadow Queen
I don't think I'll acomplish anything in this topic by trying to explain to you why is that what you said, as what you and your friends think, is racist, suffice it to say that if you believe it isn't, then you have a shallow deffinition of what racism means, many people think it only involves active despise or negative speech against a specific ethnic group/s, when prejudice and stereotyping fit that picture just as well, your implication that multi-culturalism is somehow linked to gang culture and violence involves a lot of prejudice and stereotyping, if not a completely misguided notion of causality.

You brought forward multi-culturalism and the diversity of races as a point of discussion, which you directly linked with gang culture and violence, you then proceeded to mention how minorities "don't have a culture of their own" when in such small numbers like it is the case with Great Britain.

I may be mixing up the terms "racism" and "xenophobia", but it does nothing to diminish how prejudiced and bigoted your post was.

I never said anything about any "white establishment", I may have rushed myself with my "latino" comment (which actually referenced culture, not ethnicity) but I never referenced the ethnicity of those that are truly responsible for the problem of gang violence.
What I said is that, wether it's in the US, Uruguay, Indonesia or Egypt, it's a matter where those responsible are public officials and representatives that don't provide adequate services to the poorest, less favored sectors of society, as a complete of lack of policy to support education and work oportunity.
To somehow link multi-culturalism and ethnicity into this matter, is nothing short of medieval thought, I didn't come here to offend anyone, but by the nine do I find this type of thinking backwards in the year we live in.

You are contradicting yourself, if you believe that it's bullplops that culture and race have nothing to do with gun violence, then why the hell is it even worth mentioning the ethnicity of the offenders regarding any statistic ? NOTHING in those statistics objectively proves that there is a direct casual link between membership or belonging to a minority culture or ethnicity and being prone to violent behavior.

Then that's exactly what needs to be highlighted, and not things like the "example" you gave about Great Britain or bringing up statistics that show absolutely no direct link between race/culture and violence.

I'm trying to tread as carefully as possible hear feliciano. I knew my post would stir up the plops pot, but this is something about this country most people don't know about. You can continue to call me racist if you want. You have no basis for it, other than the overly-sensitive definition of what qualifies someone to be racist anymore, where the truth is no defense.

But my black friends are racist too? Haha.. No. They just had to live next to the Joy Road Hit Squad in Detroit growing up in the hood and were trying to make it the right way when a bunch of mindless thugs made their life a living fluffing hell. They know what they are talking about because they lived in gang territory. You can talk all you want over there, like you know what's going on in the states, but if you ever visit I'll take you for a ride in North St. Louis at two in the morning and show you what it's REALLY like.

Not once have I said that I think it's the fault of "black people". It's the multi-cultural society. We have MUCH more diversity than any country in the world here. If white people were the minority here and were treated the same way through U.S. history as blacks were, I'm sure many of our neighborhoods would've adopted an anti-establishment gang culture as well.

When I made my example of Great Britain, here's what I meant: Black people in the states adopted their own language (Ebonics), started rap and thug culture, and made it look "cool" to be a criminal. In the UK you had the punk movement, which was cross-cultural. In the states races are SEGREGATED. Not by law anymore, but by economic factors as well as the paranoia and racism that keeps people to themselves over here. Our media does not like to talk about it. But hell, even Rev. Al Sharpton has talked about gang violence and the problems it causes in black communities. I like Al Sharpton, and anyone in the U.S. will tell you that there isn't a racist alive that likes Al Sharpton.

You say I'm contradicting myself? How? In essence my statement above was that racists believe black people are naturally violent. That it is in their nature to commit violent acts. That is what I think is bullplops.

What isn't bullplops is the gang culture in this country (that is a direct result of the environment minorities live in) that leads to 11% of the population committing 50% of the violent crime. And how the HELL is that not proof enough that we live in a violent society with a violent minority gang sub-culture? I'm not saying white people aren't as bad or that skin heads are any less violent. I'm just saying that if you want to talk about gun violence in America, let's look at where much of it comes from.
 

feliciano182

Well-Known Member
But my black friends are racist too? Haha.. No. They just had to live next to the Joy Road Hit Squad in Detroit growing up in the hood and were trying to make it the right way when a bunch of mindless thugs made their life a living fluffing hell. They know what they are talking about because they lived in gang territory. You can talk all you want over there, like you know what's going on in the states, but if you ever visit I'll take you for a ride in North St. Louis at two in the morning and show you what it's REALLY like.

I've lived my entire life in Caracas, Venezuela.

It's a city that at one point had more casualties per weekend by violent gun crime than there were marine and insurgent deaths per week in "Desert Storm" Irak. Violent crime is so f***ing bad over here that the Minister of Justice cheated statistics by reporting gang-on-gang homicides by a designation so ridiculous, that in my attempt to translate, it might sound something like "Score Settling".

Swinging dicks you say ? I sure am, but I don't appreciate when people try to intimidate me or underestimate my opinions, I am well aware of what violent crime is and what it's consequences are to society.

As for your friends, it is a moot point to discuss, I'm not going to achieve anything there, that much is clear.

It's the multi-cultural society. We have MUCH more diversity than any country in the world here.

That is ridiculously debatable, and a point you yourself might be misunderstanding since you believe there are no sub-cultures in some countries. I wonder what you would say about a nation like Spain, which is also ripe with multi-culturalism, and which funny enough, doesn't have anywhere near the rates of gun violence that the US does.

In the states races are SEGREGATED. Not by law anymore, but by economic factors as well as the paranoia and racism that keeps people to themselves over here.

Why, in the name of all that is holy, are you blaming this issue on multi-culturalism when you are clearly stating there's social issues at work ? That there's an official, public process of maintaining society that is clearly failing ? Why do you turn your attention to the issue of culture when you, on your own, are pointing out the precise issues that make up for the violence in the US ?

I am not being sarcastic, nor am I being an ass, I am asking those questions legitimately.

You say I'm contradicting myself? How? In essence my statement above was that racists believe black people are naturally violent. That it is in their nature to commit violent acts. That is what I think is bullplops.

Because you're saying ethnicity has nothing to do with violent acts, to which you proceed to show statistics that would imply the exact opposite of your point, and rather than pointing out the social issues that are actually relevant (education, healthcare, security) and blaming the right people (public officials, government policies), you insist on blaming the issue on "multi-culturalism" as if it was the direct cause of the issue of violence, when in reality, apart from being morally bankrupt, there is no evidence to back this point, none.

And how the HELL is that not proof enough that we live in a violent society with a violent minority gang sub-culture? I'm not saying white people aren't as bad or that skin heads are any less violent. I'm just saying that if you want to talk about gun violence in America, let's look at where much of it comes from.

We may have a different view of what "proof" means here, frankly, I'm pretty sure mine is the correct one, but I'll explain:

When we indulge ourselves in saying that something like "multi-culturalism" has a direct effect on creating "violence", it becomes a matter of public and scientific interest, it is a hypothesis about an issue of human concern, to solve an issue like this, we must study it and ascertain wether the assumption is correct or incorrect by testing the notion with a different assortment of methods, and thus conclude wether it's true or not what we first said.

By that explanation, my deffinition of proof is when studies, discoveries, research or theories support any direct, causal link between both multi-culturalism and violence, and NOT when I claim my assertions are correct based simply on my confidence that they are correct.

The point ? If you want to look at gun violence, look at the assumptions that have been proven, look at the direct causes, education is failing in the US, opportunities are failing in the US, healthcare is failing in the US, and those are issues that have an assertively bigger effect on the quality of life of a nation, as well as the emergence of gun violence in a community than diversity of race and culture could ever do in any of our lifetimes.
 

Soloquendi

Pastor of Muppets
The biggest common denominator when it comes to whether a group of people will belong to a violent gang or not is economic, not racial. It just happens that the most economically disadvantaged happen to be racial minorities. Many black youths join gangs because they see no alternative. Raising these people up out of poverty would do more to curb violence than gun control.

Like many people, including the President, have said, gun control is just one small part of the solution. We need to address this problem from all angles. Unfortunately, gun lovers are deliberately diverting attention from this by playing the victim. Besides, deliberate attacks with guns aren't the only problem with them. "Accidental" killing and wounding are also a problem, because the average gun nut doesn't have the slightest fluffing idea on how to handle them.

5 hurt in accidental shootings at 3 US gun shows

The chances of you hurting or killing someone you love with a gun are much higher than the chances of you having to fight off a home invasion. I'm not against people owning guns, but I do want some kind of system where I know that they are being educated and held responsible for them. As it is now, like these gun show incidents show, there are no penalties for this kind of stupidity because the police deem them "accidents".
 

Punz

Dark Lord of Skyrim
I own a gun. Not giving it up for anyone. No, it's not a semi-auto rifle. The "gun-control" laws will do nothing at all. Example: My brother a is convicted felony. By law, he isn't allowed to own a gun. He has 2. Nothing will stop guns from getting into the hands of people who just don't give a crap about laws. Not where I come from. What kind of bubble do most people live in where they refuse to see the under belly of society? The problem won't go away. There are some twisted individuals in this world. Empathy is dying. Morals are laughed at. Education is mocked. Celebrities are worshiped. I don't know. That's just my opinion on the whole thing. Guns, knives, bombs, swords, stones, fists, etc. If someone wants to kill, they will find a way.
 

Medea

The Shadow Queen
I've lived my entire life in Caracas, Venezuela.

It's a city that at one point had more casualties per weekend by violent gun crime than there were marine and insurgent deaths per week in "Desert Storm" Irak. Violent crime is so f***ing bad over here that the Minister of Justice cheated statistics by reporting gang-on-gang homicides by a designation so ridiculous, that in my attempt to translate, it might sound something like "Score Settling".

Swinging dicks you say ? I sure am, but I don't appreciate when people try to intimidate me or underestimate my opinions, I am well aware of what violent crime is and what it's consequences are to society.

As for your friends, it is a moot point to discuss, I'm not going to achieve anything there, that much is clear.

That is ridiculously debatable, and a point you yourself might be misunderstanding since you believe there are no sub-cultures in some countries. I wonder what you would say about a nation like Spain, which is also ripe with multi-culturalism, and which funny enough, doesn't have anywhere near the rates of gun violence that the US does.

Why, in the name of all that is holy, are you blaming this issue on multi-culturalism when you are clearly stating there's social issues at work ? That there's an official, public process of maintaining society that is clearly failing ? Why do you turn your attention to the issue of culture when you, on your own, are pointing out the precise issues that make up for the violence in the US ?

I am not being sarcastic, nor am I being an ass, I am asking those questions legitimately.

Because you're saying ethnicity has nothing to do with violent acts, to which you proceed to show statistics that would imply the exact opposite of your point, and rather than pointing out the social issues that are actually relevant (education, healthcare, security) and blaming the right people (public officials, government policies), you insist on blaming the issue on "multi-culturalism" as if it was the direct cause of the issue of violence, when in reality, apart from being morally bankrupt, there is no evidence to back this point, none.

We may have a different view of what "proof" means here, frankly, I'm pretty sure mine is the correct one, but I'll explain:

When we indulge ourselves in saying that something like "multi-culturalism" has a direct effect on creating "violence", it becomes a matter of public and scientific interest, it is a hypothesis about an issue of human concern, to solve an issue like this, we must study it and ascertain wether the assumption is correct or incorrect by testing the notion with a different assortment of methods, and thus conclude wether it's true or not what we first said.

By that explanation, my deffinition of proof is when studies, discoveries, research or theories support any direct, causal link between both multi-culturalism and violence, and NOT when I claim my assertions are correct based simply on my confidence that they are correct.

The point ? If you want to look at gun violence, look at the assumptions that have been proven, look at the direct causes, education is failing in the US, opportunities are failing in the US, healthcare is failing in the US, and those are issues that have an assertively bigger effect on the quality of life of a nation, as well as the emergence of gun violence in a community than diversity of race and culture could ever do in any of our lifetimes.

And I don't appreciate being called a racist, having a backwards "medieval mindset", and "morally bankrupt" from some knee-jerk reaction to what I said.

I'm done with this argument. If I have to be that careful about what I say in order to not be labelled something I'm not, it isn't worth my time anymore. You're either very stupid, because you JUST DON'T GET what I'm trying to say, or you are just being a nit-picky jerk. I can be accusatory and mean too.

Maybe you're the racist. People like you look down on minorities in your own way. You think that nothing can ever possibly be their fault. You treat them like children that can do no wrong and assume that every time some crime is committed in a minority neighborhood that it's "all the fault of society". It's condescending, and a very demeaning way of treating people. It also enables and perpetuates crime in those communities, because they are under the mistaken assumption that you, their "great white knights" in shining armor, are going to come save their community with your supreme view of justice and what is right.

I'll give you this: Maybe I should have worded things differently, and been more careful about relating gang crime to ethnicity, but if a black person said anything similar to what I said above, and prominent black people like Chris Rock and Bill Cosby have, they would be applauded for their bravery for standing-up to violence in their communities.
 

Uther Pundragon

The Harbinger of Awesome
Staff member
Everyone, please be civil or stop responding to this thread. Everyone has opinions and you won't always agree with what is said. But if this thread just ends up as a means to bash each other, I will shut it down.
 
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